So, there I am at my lesson, and my teacher shows me how to do triplets---the triple-bow single-note kind where you grab the string, D-U-D, just a scratchy sound, not even the note, really, very Tommy Peoples-like. What a thing of beauty! And he also made sure I had it all in the wrist and forefinger, no arm movement. And I even did a few of them!
Problem is, I can only do them from a dead stop. I try throwing them into my reel that I play and it doesn't quite work because my forearm is already moving the bow back and forth, so to stop and do the wrist-forefinger thing for the triplet just turns everything into a train wreck. Should I practice everything altogether moving as one?
Every time I've asked a question here someone has always responded with a great bit of wisdom, so I'm hoping that might happen again with this triplet thing. Thanks in advance for anyone's good thoughts...
Perhaps try playing a reel in which you know you want to incorporate some scratchy triplets (I tend to call them "trebles"), but play it very slowly and build up from there. If you play very slowly, then it will basically be the case that when you play a treble, it will be from a (brief) "dead stop", the gap following the note before it. You may have to play very very slowly but eventually I think it will you will find you can play them in the context of the tune, and then it's just a matter of ramping up the speed again.
Part of what will happen is that you will help train your brain and muscles to make the movement involved automatic. Once you achieve this, then you can use some spare brain cycles worrying about how to seamlessly put the trebles into a tune. You will have to learn to plan your bowing (subconsciously) so that you are ready to do a DUD where you want a treble. Or else you can learn to do UDU trebles as well, as Martin Hayes is reported to tell his students to do.
I don't mean to sound like some exalted expert because I am certainly not one, but I have spent a lot of time working on trebles. At first I thought I would never get them but honestly it's just a matter of time if you want them and you are diligent. Good luck to you!
First off, congrats on doing a bowed triplet at all! You're making stellar prgoress in such a short time just by starting to work on triplets, let alone managing to do them from a dead stop.
So how to fit them into the flow of a tune? I'd suggest two things.
First, play a tune you know well without triplets. Instead of driving the bow with your forearm, think of every movement of the bow coming from your fingers. Stephane Grapelli likened it to caressing the strings with his fingertips, as a guitarist would. Brian Conway gets at the same idea by saying "keep it as close to the stick as possible." The point is, your forearm is just along for the ride, following what the fingers and wrist are doing. And when you make this mental shift, your forearm will follow no matter what your fingers/wrist are doing, even triplets.
Second, isolate a phrase where you want to put a triplet and play this over and over (2,000 to 3,000 times ought to do it). One I usually suggest to students is:
|Bd d/d/d BAGA|
Play the first B on a down bow, then up on the d, d-u-d on the triplet, slur the last down bow onto the next B, and single bow the rest (up, down, up) repeat.
Only 2-3000 times? Whew, that's a relief! I thought it was 7000. Or is that how many hours it takes before I'll be any good? Only another four years to go, no problem.
I kind of suspected that the problem was that I wasn't letting most of the playing happen from the wrist....I think if I fix that, a lot of other problems will clear up as well. Is that phrase part of a tune, by the way? (I'm always looking for new ones)
Will also try the slow approach. Anything to get it to work!
I’ve been working on the Michael Coleman/Sean Ryan/Kevin Burke settings of Bonnie Kate with all the bowed triplet variations. Mad Baloney and Lazyhound have put in excellent transcriptions in the comments section:
It’s funny (well, not really) that I can play the descending slurred triplet variations at a decent speed but hit the wall on the bowed single-note triplets. So I start over at a snail’s pace and let my ability with the bowed triplets set the tempo. All around, an excellent exercise and a great tune to tackle.
The only thing I could add to Will's post above, is this (in effect a different way of saying what crazy_fingerz said): practice it very very slowly - almost unbearably slowly, and don't speed up for ages and ages. Don't even try it quicker. When you practice slowly, use exactly the same amount of bow, and in the same part of the bow, as you would if you were playing it quickly.
Then, eventually, try it quicker. It will already be better. But go back to doing it slowly, and leave off the quicker again for a while. Repeat.
Works, at least for me, for learning just about any new technique.
It's apparently not very common, but some players, including Frankie F. Gavin, play triplets with an arm movement. It's the only way I've been able to do it, but I'm trying to retrain.
I agree with Ben--keep it slow. In fact, I'd recommend learning your triplets as clean and clear as possible before doing the scratchier style. (I did it the other way around and "got by" for too many years with just the scratchy style.)
The key to really good bowed triplets is control over the clarity and timing of each note. Only then can you begin to consider triplets on top of the beat, after the beat, chromatic triplets (e.g.: eA c/B/A ), and other refinements.
You'll likely gain that control much sooner if you slow everthing way down, relax, and do repetitions of the tiny bow strokes that produce the triplet. They end up being very delicate, dancing strokes, a lot of fun to play. And it's easy to add "crunch" when you want to, once you've mastered the clear triplets.
A great, simple tune for practicing triplets is the reel version of Road to Lisdoonvarna, aka the Lisdoonvarna Reel.
Oh good, a tune I have on cd (Bothy Band, what else?). You're a stud, Will, thank you. I've never even heard of chromatic triplets before---what the heck are they? You mean moving triplets? Or are they different?
Oh, fidkid, is this version of Charlie Lennon playing Bonnie Kate anything like the one you play? And do you put the triplets in any particular places, or just anywhere?
A "stud?"
Well, that almost erases the whole string of epithets that bliss tossed my way....
(blush, blush)
Yep, moving triplets, where you finger different notes in the triplet. There are lots of different kinds:
each note a different pitch: c/B/A
a can sort of thing (in place of a roll, say): d/d/c d
Mimicking a piper's or futer's cut: A/B/B
And again, the piper's or fluter's bounce: A/B/A or d/e/d
Changing strings: B/A/G
and so on.
Give a good close listen in particular to Tommy Peoples, Martin Hayes, and Gerry O'Connor (fiddler, "Journeyman" cd) for lots of examples of these sorts of triplets. Tenor banjo players are also a good source for triplet ideas.
Wow, Lennon surely makes some lovely music – sounds effortless. Really something to aspire to. Thanks for the link, kennedy. Actually, I try to play Bonnie Kate more like Kevin Burke’s version on “In Concert” or Michael Coleman’s early 20c. recording, except as a single reel. The triplets do go in specific spots, played against a drone note -- almost an inverted pedal point – and act as substitutes for whole phrases.
Mandomac, I suspect what Kevin meant was that he always draws an up bow before doing a down-up-down triplet. The up-bow is a lead in to the triplet itself.
I could be wrong--it's been over 20 years since I had lessons with him.
You've got it right, Will. He prepares on the up bow and does the actual triplet on the down bow. Unless he's changed it since the last time I saw him.
Trouble with triplets
Trouble with triplets
So, there I am at my lesson, and my teacher shows me how to do triplets---the triple-bow single-note kind where you grab the string, D-U-D, just a scratchy sound, not even the note, really, very Tommy Peoples-like. What a thing of beauty! And he also made sure I had it all in the wrist and forefinger, no arm movement. And I even did a few of them!
Problem is, I can only do them from a dead stop. I try throwing them into my reel that I play and it doesn't quite work because my forearm is already moving the bow back and forth, so to stop and do the wrist-forefinger thing for the triplet just turns everything into a train wreck. Should I practice everything altogether moving as one?
Every time I've asked a question here someone has always responded with a great bit of wisdom, so I'm hoping that might happen again with this triplet thing. Thanks in advance for anyone's good thoughts...
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Trouble with triplets
I think it's "just a matter of practice" :-|
Perhaps try playing a reel in which you know you want to incorporate some scratchy triplets (I tend to call them "trebles"), but play it very slowly and build up from there. If you play very slowly, then it will basically be the case that when you play a treble, it will be from a (brief) "dead stop", the gap following the note before it. You may have to play very very slowly but eventually I think it will you will find you can play them in the context of the tune, and then it's just a matter of ramping up the speed again.
Part of what will happen is that you will help train your brain and muscles to make the movement involved automatic. Once you achieve this, then you can use some spare brain cycles worrying about how to seamlessly put the trebles into a tune. You will have to learn to plan your bowing (subconsciously) so that you are ready to do a DUD where you want a treble. Or else you can learn to do UDU trebles as well, as Martin Hayes is reported to tell his students to do.
I don't mean to sound like some exalted expert because I am certainly not one, but I have spent a lot of time working on trebles. At first I thought I would never get them but honestly it's just a matter of time if you want them and you are diligent. Good luck to you!
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by timmy!
Re: Trouble with triplets
First off, congrats on doing a bowed triplet at all! You're making stellar prgoress in such a short time just by starting to work on triplets, let alone managing to do them from a dead stop.
So how to fit them into the flow of a tune? I'd suggest two things.
First, play a tune you know well without triplets. Instead of driving the bow with your forearm, think of every movement of the bow coming from your fingers. Stephane Grapelli likened it to caressing the strings with his fingertips, as a guitarist would. Brian Conway gets at the same idea by saying "keep it as close to the stick as possible." The point is, your forearm is just along for the ride, following what the fingers and wrist are doing. And when you make this mental shift, your forearm will follow no matter what your fingers/wrist are doing, even triplets.
Second, isolate a phrase where you want to put a triplet and play this over and over (2,000 to 3,000 times ought to do it). One I usually suggest to students is:
|Bd d/d/d BAGA|
Play the first B on a down bow, then up on the d, d-u-d on the triplet, slur the last down bow onto the next B, and single bow the rest (up, down, up) repeat.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
Only 2-3000 times? Whew, that's a relief! I thought it was 7000. Or is that how many hours it takes before I'll be any good? Only another four years to go, no problem.
I kind of suspected that the problem was that I wasn't letting most of the playing happen from the wrist....I think if I fix that, a lot of other problems will clear up as well. Is that phrase part of a tune, by the way? (I'm always looking for new ones)
Will also try the slow approach. Anything to get it to work!
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Trouble with triplets
Will has nailed it, the two note runup to the triplet and a few notes out, stirred thousands of times.
Also watch the rhythm- triplets are notorious places for rushing the beat .
Actually almost anything we think is hard tends to cause rushing. Better to slow down!
If only I would take my own advice.
Good luck.
Dan
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by curamach
Re: Trouble with triplets
I’ve been working on the Michael Coleman/Sean Ryan/Kevin Burke settings of Bonnie Kate with all the bowed triplet variations. Mad Baloney and Lazyhound have put in excellent transcriptions in the comments section:
http://thesession.org/tunes/display/754
It’s funny (well, not really) that I can play the descending slurred triplet variations at a decent speed but hit the wall on the bowed single-note triplets. So I start over at a snail’s pace and let my ability with the bowed triplets set the tempo. All around, an excellent exercise and a great tune to tackle.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Trouble with triplets
The only thing I could add to Will's post above, is this (in effect a different way of saying what crazy_fingerz said): practice it very very slowly - almost unbearably slowly, and don't speed up for ages and ages. Don't even try it quicker. When you practice slowly, use exactly the same amount of bow, and in the same part of the bow, as you would if you were playing it quickly.
Then, eventually, try it quicker. It will already be better. But go back to doing it slowly, and leave off the quicker again for a while. Repeat.
Works, at least for me, for learning just about any new technique.
Good luck!
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by ethical blend
Minority report
It's apparently not very common, but some players, including Frankie F. Gavin, play triplets with an arm movement. It's the only way I've been able to do it, but I'm trying to retrain.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trouble with triplets
I agree with Ben--keep it slow. In fact, I'd recommend learning your triplets as clean and clear as possible before doing the scratchier style. (I did it the other way around and "got by" for too many years with just the scratchy style.)
The key to really good bowed triplets is control over the clarity and timing of each note. Only then can you begin to consider triplets on top of the beat, after the beat, chromatic triplets (e.g.: eA c/B/A ), and other refinements.
You'll likely gain that control much sooner if you slow everthing way down, relax, and do repetitions of the tiny bow strokes that produce the triplet. They end up being very delicate, dancing strokes, a lot of fun to play. And it's easy to add "crunch" when you want to, once you've mastered the clear triplets.
A great, simple tune for practicing triplets is the reel version of Road to Lisdoonvarna, aka the Lisdoonvarna Reel.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/249
I'll post a setting chock full of triplets in the comments there.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
Oh good, a tune I have on cd (Bothy Band, what else?). You're a stud, Will, thank you. I've never even heard of chromatic triplets before---what the heck are they? You mean moving triplets? Or are they different?
Oh, fidkid, is this version of Charlie Lennon playing Bonnie Kate anything like the one you play? And do you put the triplets in any particular places, or just anywhere?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4wt2JQqpc8
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Trouble with triplets
A "stud?"
Well, that almost erases the whole string of epithets that bliss tossed my way....
(blush, blush)
Yep, moving triplets, where you finger different notes in the triplet. There are lots of different kinds:
each note a different pitch: c/B/A
a can sort of thing (in place of a roll, say): d/d/c d
Mimicking a piper's or futer's cut: A/B/B
And again, the piper's or fluter's bounce: A/B/A or d/e/d
Changing strings: B/A/G
and so on.
Give a good close listen in particular to Tommy Peoples, Martin Hayes, and Gerry O'Connor (fiddler, "Journeyman" cd) for lots of examples of these sorts of triplets. Tenor banjo players are also a good source for triplet ideas.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
er, that'd be "a *cran* sort of thing."
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
Wow, Lennon surely makes some lovely music – sounds effortless. Really something to aspire to. Thanks for the link, kennedy. Actually, I try to play Bonnie Kate more like Kevin Burke’s version on “In Concert” or Michael Coleman’s early 20c. recording, except as a single reel. The triplets do go in specific spots, played against a drone note -- almost an inverted pedal point – and act as substitutes for whole phrases.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Trouble with triplets
For what its worth: at a workshop last summer, Kevin Burke said he started all triplets on an upbow.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by mandomac2
Re: Trouble with triplets
Mandomac, I suspect what Kevin meant was that he always draws an up bow before doing a down-up-down triplet. The up-bow is a lead in to the triplet itself.
I could be wrong--it's been over 20 years since I had lessons with him.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Trouble with triplets
You've got it right, Will. He prepares on the up bow and does the actual triplet on the down bow. Unless he's changed it since the last time I saw him.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Trouble with triplets
Hey carefull now, I'm a triplet. Why would triplets cause you trouble. I'm offended. :(
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by session savage
Re: Trouble with triplets
Doing thousands of them is key.
Here are some other tips from past discussions:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11802
# Posted on December 20th 2006 by Georgi