Quite often at festivals and the like you'll get situations where a band will invite a few "friends" up to join them on stage and this will result in "a session" where they'll all play "common tunes". Sometimes, such a situation is obviously contrived and *may* even have been planned and/or rehearsed. There are occasions, however, when it is a very loose arrangement and the event has even been "set up" as an actual session albeit on the stage. Nobody knows exactly who will be playing or what the likely repertoire will be. In fact, the musicians might even pay scant regard to the audience in these circumstances and *appear* oblivious to their reaction.
Now, having read the other thread(s) here, I'd imagine that the consensus of most of us here would be that this was still *a performance* as this is an advertised gig with(probably) an admission charge. Therefore, the musicians must be aware of some obligation..however small...to entertain.
However, let's consider the punters' point of view. Whereas many might enjoy a "performance" of this kind, I'm sure that a not insignificant minority would not necessarily regard it as a real performance but as "just a session" which happened to be occurring on the stage. Some might even feel a bit cheated and consider that the musicians were being somewhat indulgent.
Personally, while it can be fun to see musicians occasionally having an impromptu tune on stage, I believe that, in a concert situation, a band should deliver a genuine and considered *performance*. A good *pub session* should be what it is, i.e. a session and not a performance.
However, as we've seen, there is obviously blurring occurring at both ends of the spectrum and at all levels in between whether we like it or not. I'd also suggest that the increasing number of "one off" paid sessions such as the McEwans variety(In Scotland) just tend to muddy the water even further as the pub management and punters tend to have different expectations under such circumstances.
Apologies if some of these points have been addressed already. I just thought it might be appropriate to start a new thread to focus on this particular issue, as the other one was getting a bit confusing and cumbersome.
Indeed, I've seen this sort of thing even in a "supposedly" normal pub session where there might be a raised platform or "corner" where musicians are *expected* to play. Doesn't even a table with a "Reserved for Musicians" notice fall into this category, i.e a performing area?
You'll also find sessions with a suspended microphone to "pick up the musical ambience" which can be heard throughout the bar. Of course, the session participants are merely playing away "for themselves" regardless.
So, is the player's perception of what is a session or performance really irrelevent? Is it the punter or management who determine whether or not it is a performance ?
Again, I'm sorry if we've already touched on this elsewhere.
OMG I so can't believe this is happening again. This makes me wanna tear my hair out. Please get me out of this never ending vicious circle of day after day of going online to find people talking about the "p" word. I think I'm going crazy.
NNOOOOOO please make it stop. I saw it again the budgie it flew at me and it had 3 eyes and the police came and took it away and the horn went honk honk and the woman had a sore tibia and arrrghhh NOOOOOO I'm going maaaaaaaad
It stands to reason. The audience may not think the musicians are performing, the musicians know they are not, and it could be in Montana, the "No listen" state.
I know, I know but I was sort of hoping that a discussion might develop regarding the pros and cons of musicians(and event event organisers) attempting to recreate the atmosphere of a session on a concert platform.
Perhaps, I should have asked another question or worded it differently though.
Dow and a few others will be able to confirm that I've messed up, in this respect, before.
If Irish theme pubs are anything to go by, it is difficult to cultivate an atmosphere, something which might be said to represent the social interaction of a group of people. That interaction is going to change according to circumstance, and no matter whether people are used to applause, to playing in a central position, or upon a raised platform, their interaction will be very different when they are upon a stage. Performers must take their audience into consideration to be successful, something you hint at in your original post, whereas in my experience of sessions it's quite acceptable to ignore the punters if you desire. I think a 'session' on stage would be both a pain in the a**e for the musicians, and a bit of a lame performance in addition. Perhaps leprechauns and shamrocks might be a decorative motif...
Tonight I went to the annual Christmas party where the community of Irish musicians and their friends and spouses in the area gather for food, drink, and music. A great time was had by all and the house was filled with friends and tunes. Some sat on the couch, and others stood nearby and listened to the music. Everyone else was carrying on chatting, eating and laughing. We were performing tunes on our instruments but none of us were "performing." And because the crowd was made up of mostly musicians and their spouses, I think it's safe to say that everyone understood and appreciated it as a non-performance event.
Now as much as I'd like the pub to be like that every time we have our session there -- it isn't. There are moments when the only people in the pub are musicians (the barman sings sean-nos) and I think you could say everyone in the pub gets it, but those moments are fleeting. But even though some people come into the pub and think we're performing, it doesn't matter to me once the tunes start up.
Will, I genuinely think we agree about more things than we disagree. The place where I run into trouble is that you seem to jump to conclusions about my points, interpret them completely different than what I was saying, and then post your interpretation and begin arguing against it as though I said it. I think we might avoid this if we ask for clarification of each other's points before we commence with our responses. What do you think?
(Sorry to everyone else for posting something the might have been better in a private email, but I thought it might be something we can all consider in the interest of improving our on line discussions.)
I understand, Jack, and I hope you realize that I feel the same way--that you've interpreted my posts completely different from what I was saying. And also not acknowledged or responded to essential points I've made.
I'm not enitrely sure why, but more often than not, we seem to have our signals crossed.
What's clear is that we both love playing this music--why else would we carry on like an old married couple over it?
Well, it's straight forward that one cannot be mistaken,
having, for example, a personal opinion something like "I
am my favourite bodhran player." Or even,"I am
the best"
At this point I can but only agree.
Further down the line though, said perpetraitor maybe be
under the illusion that the dichotomy that exists after
concidering subjectivity and objectivity must be
kept at bay. Otherwise there may be more of an
interesting argument to be had than the endless
namby pamby rubbish that has populated that other
gregarious thread of over one thousand postings.
Whatever the reasons though, the act of being mistaken is
a common error and, leaving pretentions aside, should
never be taken as anything other that merely an acurate
knowledge of one's own shortcomings. (Even though such
erudite shortcomings would normally be exposed as
reactionary low self esteem by anyone sain)
Wow. Will and Jack appear to have kissed and made up.
How come you couldn't manage it in the other thread?
Oh well, at least this one isn't going to be 1000 posts long...
?
Whether a session on a stage is a performance depends entirely on the dimensions of the stage and, of course the phase of the moon and the astrological sign of everyone present.
Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Quite often at festivals and the like you'll get situations where a band will invite a few "friends" up to join them on stage and this will result in "a session" where they'll all play "common tunes". Sometimes, such a situation is obviously contrived and *may* even have been planned and/or rehearsed. There are occasions, however, when it is a very loose arrangement and the event has even been "set up" as an actual session albeit on the stage. Nobody knows exactly who will be playing or what the likely repertoire will be. In fact, the musicians might even pay scant regard to the audience in these circumstances and *appear* oblivious to their reaction.
Now, having read the other thread(s) here, I'd imagine that the consensus of most of us here would be that this was still *a performance* as this is an advertised gig with(probably) an admission charge. Therefore, the musicians must be aware of some obligation..however small...to entertain.
However, let's consider the punters' point of view. Whereas many might enjoy a "performance" of this kind, I'm sure that a not insignificant minority would not necessarily regard it as a real performance but as "just a session" which happened to be occurring on the stage. Some might even feel a bit cheated and consider that the musicians were being somewhat indulgent.
Personally, while it can be fun to see musicians occasionally having an impromptu tune on stage, I believe that, in a concert situation, a band should deliver a genuine and considered *performance*. A good *pub session* should be what it is, i.e. a session and not a performance.
However, as we've seen, there is obviously blurring occurring at both ends of the spectrum and at all levels in between whether we like it or not. I'd also suggest that the increasing number of "one off" paid sessions such as the McEwans variety(In Scotland) just tend to muddy the water even further as the pub management and punters tend to have different expectations under such circumstances.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Apologies if some of these points have been addressed already. I just thought it might be appropriate to start a new thread to focus on this particular issue, as the other one was getting a bit confusing and cumbersome.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Yes.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by duffgen
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Yes.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Money + Stage =
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by morning star
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I already know what the "short answer" is.
This is going to be a very short thread, I fear.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Yes
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by ethical blend
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
"Money + Stage ="
Indeed, I've seen this sort of thing even in a "supposedly" normal pub session where there might be a raised platform or "corner" where musicians are *expected* to play. Doesn't even a table with a "Reserved for Musicians" notice fall into this category, i.e a performing area?
You'll also find sessions with a suspended microphone to "pick up the musical ambience" which can be heard throughout the bar. Of course, the session participants are merely playing away "for themselves" regardless.
So, is the player's perception of what is a session or performance really irrelevent? Is it the punter or management who determine whether or not it is a performance ?
Again, I'm sorry if we've already touched on this elsewhere.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
OMG I so can't believe this is happening again. This makes me wanna tear my hair out. Please get me out of this never ending vicious circle of day after day of going online to find people talking about the "p" word. I think I'm going crazy.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Ah, gotcha!!!!
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
NNOOOOOO please make it stop. I saw it again the budgie it flew at me and it had 3 eyes and the police came and took it away and the horn went honk honk and the woman had a sore tibia and arrrghhh NOOOOOO I'm going maaaaaaaad
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by abuteague
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
If you are playing dance music and there are no dancers dancing -its a performance for listening to ,obviously!!
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by cos
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Certainly not, by no stretch of the imagination.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Ah, potential for a debate. At last.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
John did say `on a stage` Bodhran?
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by cos
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
It stands to reason. The audience may not think the musicians are performing, the musicians know they are not, and it could be in Montana, the "No listen" state.
The evidence is irrefutable.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
bodhran bliss has about as much potential for good debate as a squashed cigarette butt.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I`m off to a `concert`,of trad music in an hour or so and If I dont feel the players are performing -what shoud I do?
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by cos
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Throw things at them.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dragut Reis
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Sorry Robert, its Ceolteoiri Loch Laoi -about 25 of them!-all younger and fitter than me!!
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by cos
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
A silly contribution, I know. But this is a silly thread. No offence John, but the answer to your question is self-evident.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dragut Reis
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I know, I know but I was sort of hoping that a discussion might develop regarding the pros and cons of musicians(and event event organisers) attempting to recreate the atmosphere of a session on a concert platform.
Perhaps, I should have asked another question or worded it differently though.
Dow and a few others will be able to confirm that I've messed up, in this respect, before.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
If Irish theme pubs are anything to go by, it is difficult to cultivate an atmosphere, something which might be said to represent the social interaction of a group of people. That interaction is going to change according to circumstance, and no matter whether people are used to applause, to playing in a central position, or upon a raised platform, their interaction will be very different when they are upon a stage. Performers must take their audience into consideration to be successful, something you hint at in your original post, whereas in my experience of sessions it's quite acceptable to ignore the punters if you desire. I think a 'session' on stage would be both a pain in the a**e for the musicians, and a bit of a lame performance in addition. Perhaps leprechauns and shamrocks might be a decorative motif...
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Dragut Reis
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Tonight I went to the annual Christmas party where the community of Irish musicians and their friends and spouses in the area gather for food, drink, and music. A great time was had by all and the house was filled with friends and tunes. Some sat on the couch, and others stood nearby and listened to the music. Everyone else was carrying on chatting, eating and laughing. We were performing tunes on our instruments but none of us were "performing." And because the crowd was made up of mostly musicians and their spouses, I think it's safe to say that everyone understood and appreciated it as a non-performance event.
Now as much as I'd like the pub to be like that every time we have our session there -- it isn't. There are moments when the only people in the pub are musicians (the barman sings sean-nos) and I think you could say everyone in the pub gets it, but those moments are fleeting. But even though some people come into the pub and think we're performing, it doesn't matter to me once the tunes start up.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Dow, I am deeply offended.
Will, I love that post.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Plagiarism must be one of the few things which Jeremy allows here.
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Oops. Did I forget to mention that those are Jack's words? Sorry.
Just goes to shoe that he and I agree on more than might be apparent.
(LOL, John J, "one of the FEW things Jeremy allows"?!?!?!?!)
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
"Shoe?"
er, "show" (heh, freudian or what?)
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Yuh shoes uhn ay no nothuh, n yo shoes on da wong feat...
# Posted on December 17th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I was agreeing with everything in Will's post about the Christmas party until I got to the bottom and saw his name.
Joking hahahaha
*This post was inspired by something "Obnoxious Blanket" said on the mega behemoth thread BTW. (Thanks Mark)
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Jack, I also copied it into 'c's' thread here:
http://thesession.org/discussions/display/12053
but more of a paraphrase, so you can see how genuinely similar your Christmas party and our regular session are.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Will, I genuinely think we agree about more things than we disagree. The place where I run into trouble is that you seem to jump to conclusions about my points, interpret them completely different than what I was saying, and then post your interpretation and begin arguing against it as though I said it. I think we might avoid this if we ask for clarification of each other's points before we commence with our responses. What do you think?
(Sorry to everyone else for posting something the might have been better in a private email, but I thought it might be something we can all consider in the interest of improving our on line discussions.)
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I understand, Jack, and I hope you realize that I feel the same way--that you've interpreted my posts completely different from what I was saying. And also not acknowledged or responded to essential points I've made.
I'm not enitrely sure why, but more often than not, we seem to have our signals crossed.
What's clear is that we both love playing this music--why else would we carry on like an old married couple over it?
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
It's agreed then -- we'll ask for clarification first instead. Great!
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Sounds good.
(raising a pint in your direction)
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Jeremy allows nowt.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Well, it's straight forward that one cannot be mistaken,
having, for example, a personal opinion something like "I
am my favourite bodhran player." Or even,"I am
the best"
At this point I can but only agree.
Further down the line though, said perpetraitor maybe be
under the illusion that the dichotomy that exists after
concidering subjectivity and objectivity must be
kept at bay. Otherwise there may be more of an
interesting argument to be had than the endless
namby pamby rubbish that has populated that other
gregarious thread of over one thousand postings.
Whatever the reasons though, the act of being mistaken is
a common error and, leaving pretentions aside, should
never be taken as anything other that merely an acurate
knowledge of one's own shortcomings. (Even though such
erudite shortcomings would normally be exposed as
reactionary low self esteem by anyone sain)
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by ...
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Wow. Will and Jack appear to have kissed and made up.
How come you couldn't manage it in the other thread?
Oh well, at least this one isn't going to be 1000 posts long...
?
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Probably because you kept jumping in and stirring it up, Mark,
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I thought the whole point of the other thread was to avoid talking about bodhrans and how likeable they might be....
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Whether a session on a stage is a performance depends entirely on the dimensions of the stage and, of course the phase of the moon and the astrological sign of everyone present.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by leoj
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
I think it has more to do with what everyone is drinking.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
And how much they're drinking, and at what pace. I think the tipping point (so to speak) is about 0.175 on the breathalyzer.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
This thread is not growing very fast. I guess we are just all "perform"ed out around here!
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Well, now that it's all over, the
heresy that was mere hearsay
outlasts the trumpet blowing.
Doing this kind of thing
only belittles you.
You just are can't think
out of the box. You will never
understand.
The person who I talk of
has never really had enough
inteligence to understand,
nor have they the insight to
know what's really going on.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by ...
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
Michael, I like the william carlos williams thing you have going.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Sessions on Stage. Are these performances?
If a man walks deep into a forest and utters a profound statement....
but there are no women around.... is he still wrong?
Roy
# Posted on December 26th 2006 by LeRoy Abbott