As some of you know I recently restord my grandfathers fiddle, but now I find myself in a dilemma <sp> once again. I need a bow. My question to all you fiddle players out there is this:
What should I buy? A student bow and save some cash? Or a better quality one that a luthier will be able to rehair and will last many year? Also, are there any things I should look for other than personal taste/preference when it comes to my purchase? I really am very confused....
If anyone could help out, that would be really great.
Id say get a decent bow, but not a very expensive one. You can probably get a good older bow that has maybe been repaired or is not perfect for 150-200 dollars. There are some graphite bows around that arent too bad either. The best advice would be to get someone who plays, even classical, to come along with you and tell you if the balance is good, but this isnt a big deal at first. Any bow around 100 dollars will do you for a while before you notice its limitations. Some good players even use crappy 50 dollar fibreglass bows with no complaints...but they're crazy.
The things I look for in a good bow are a combination of lightness and stiffness. It should feel lively but in control. My current bow is light and lively, but so lively that its a bit uncontrollable, hence Im searching for a new one.
After you've played for a while and are more aware of what you like, then save up your pennies and get yourself a real nice bow that will last a lifetime.
I'd recommend getting a decent bow and staying away from the student models, if you can afford it. Nothing is more important or more difficult in fiddling than good bowing, and starting off with a flawed bow can lead to bad habits that cause problems later on. Others may disagree, but I'm speaking from experience here.
You don't have to spend a whole lot on a really good bow, though, just get a decent one. Although I haven't used one, carbon fiber bows seem to be becoming very popular as inexpensive and durable bows that perform very well; they're apparently nothing like the fiberglass junk. I'm tempted to buy one myself.
Like Brandon said, it really helps to have an experienced player along to try the bows and recommend one to you, because without experience it's hard to tell much about the pros and cons of a particular bow.
If you buy a wooden bow, be sure to sight down the length and make sure it's straight and try to make sure the camber (bend or arch) of the bow looks right. Warped bows aren't rare.
See if you can't find someone who carries or can order bows from the "Water Violet" company out of Brazil. I own two other pernambuco bows (one valued at $2,500) and a Coda Classic carbon fiber ($700 new), and I'm enjoying the hell out of a Water Violet bow made by a man named Cirillo. It cost me $350 USD, and it's hands down the best bow I've ever held in 30 years of fiddling. Pernambuco stick, snakewood frog, and silver.
I have no connection to the company--just a very happy customer. So far, all six bows I've played from this company have been excellent. I'll be testing three more next week and choosing one for my "back up' bow.
Definitely get the best bow you can find/afford--it's half or more of the instrument (tone, responsiveness, power, etc.). Don't let a poorly made bow hold you back.
if you're an absolute beginner, just get a cheap student bow. it will take some time to develop the mechanics of bowing to a level where it makes any difference. if you happen to lose interest in playing before then, you haven't sunk as much cash into it. i have a $25 brazilwood bow from Johnson Strings that's good enough for any beginner.
That's good advice too from silver bow. He lucked out, getting a decent, serviceable bow for $25. But it is possible. And my experience is that johnson strings will treat you fairly.
I asked this question a few weeks ago. Best advise I got was..
Try out some bows, start with the cheapest and keep trying them, working your way up until you cant tell the difference.
You can get very reasonably priced carbon fibre bows by tri-folk from www.timsviolins.co.uk , I've tried them and they are excellent quality for the price, a good bow to start with without spending a fortune.
the Arcos Brasil shop is another great shop comparable to Water Violet, as well as Horst John bows, but I think he has sold his shop.
The thing to look for in a bow is balance, whether it is a light stick or a heavier one. Round or octagonal is a personal preference and each will react a little differently. Play as many as you can...they all will sound different, and can make as much difference as a different set of strings or rosin.
Since Johnson Strings has already been mentioned I will give it another shameless plug since I work there and focus mainly on the fiddle world. I’m mostly in the Cape Cod shop but go to the main shop about once a week. If you want to give me a call or shoot me an email we can talk about what you’re looking for. I’d be happy to play through some bows and send a few off to you for a trial.
As Will said, the Water Violet bows would be a great starting point, but we’ve got a number of bows in that price range. Our sales manager is a bow maker himself and I think that our selection of the lower end bows is exceptional as he plays through each one that is sent to us and only a small percentage makes it into the showroom and the rest are sent back.
Clayton March
508-495-5551
clayton@johnsonstring.com
I tried a few of the carbon fibre bows from Shar. It cost $15 to try them and then I also had to pay for shipping. I suppose it would be better to just go into a shop. In any case, the Presto Ovation was a nice bow. The particular one I tried was a little to light for my taste, but the balance was nice. I did not try the $90 version, but that might be something to consider.
Lateral bends in bows usually arise naturally after a few years playing, and can usually be sorted out by a luthier in most cases. They aren't necessarily a reason for ditching the bow. A twist is more serious.
When you look at a bow to see if it has a lateral bend, do this when the hairs aren't under tension; because if the hairs aren't evenly tensioned across their width they can cause a slight bend in the bow when under tension. Again, not difficult for a luthier to deal with.
One of my bows has a slight lateral bend caused by uneven hair tension, although it doesn't affect my playing in any way and I'm not aware of it when playing, I'll have it seen to at the next rehairing. I noticed it some months after rehairing, and, mysteriously, it seems to have come on immediately after I unwisely lent the bow in a session to a fiddler who has a reputation for wrecking bows and had forgotten to bring his. A moral there, somewhere.
Wasn't me was it Trevor? I remember that session where I brought my fiddle and not the bow.
The money and bow question is difficult as I have found some very acceptable bows at £40 but they are very rare. The Water Violet bows are very good made by a team in Brazil and come under many varied stamps all with latin names. They also have a policy (or had when I worked in a fiddle shop that they planted as many trees as they felled which is good for you greenies out there. They were the best value bows in the shop, probably due to having the pick of the wood.
It really helps to understand how bows vary by feel and sound on a given instrument. this is a quick start strategy based on how much I learned about bows just by comparing a lot of them over time.
Find a store with the largest selection. (trad musics stores in the US often avoid the high price bows since they don't sell all that well. Play a bunch of very different bows one after the other on the same fiddle and bring along an experienced player to play for you to listen and comment on the bows. Play the 2K bow, 1.5K bow, the 1K bow , the $450-650, and the 100-200 or so. Plan to NOT buy that day -insist on a quiet private space to try them if they won't let you take them to tryout. The point is NOT to buy a bow but to get feel as quickly as possible for what bows feel like and what you like. Even a relatively inexperience player can quickly tell the big differences. A good bow has a lot to teach the intermediate player, IMHO. Avoid the I wait until I"m good enough to deserve it mentality. I wasted some time on that one myself. Even if cost is a critical factor, knowing the range can help you spot a true bargain.
PS Water Violet turned out to be a great buy for me. I got a great bow comparable to some of the multiK bows at around $650 dealer's cost new. However, the quality among their makes does vary widely. BUt even their cheap bows mostly weren't bad. Good luck! good bows are a wonderful thing.
No, Gavin, it wasn't you - but you can probably make a pretty good guess! When you forgot your bow, wasn't that when I lent you my carbon fibre viola bow?
The bow I currently use is a Coda Bow Classic. It's a nice carbon-fiber bow, but it is relatively expensive, at $600. At school, I use a coda bow conservatory, which is not bad either, and it is cheaper. They make a whole range of bows, from $265 to $765 direct.
I recently purchased an Incredibow and I really like it. It's made of graphite and has synthetic hair. It's very light (39g) but has good sonic power because it is tightly strung. This tightness also completely eliminated a problem I had with bow bounce.
It also makes a much nicer sound than my old wooden bow (admittely, not a particularly good wooden bow).
It's very easy to play and is very stable and has helped improve my playing in various ways. I'm now much more agile in my playing because of it's light weight and the raw power it has means even a light touch still gives a good tone. And the eradication of bow bounce gives me much more confidence playing any note at any weight.
It's also cheap - it cost £80GBP (which is probably around $160USD), although I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper in the US as most things usually are.
I bought a second Water Violet bow, so now my Coda Classic is for sale.
Of the three newest Water Violets I tested, one had a slight yaw to the stick. The other two were excellent--I choose a round stick as a complement to my octagaonal Cirillo. Very similar feels, although the new one is a touch more lively.
Actually, very similar. Full, round tone, from lows thru mid-range, to highs. Maybe the WVs are a touch warmer sounding, but it's too close to tell with my eyes closed. The WVs are somewhat friskier bows--the Coda is more steady and stable, even at speed.
Honestly, the main reason I switched was that the Water Violets are half the price of a Coda Classic. I bought the first one as a back up to the Coda as my main bow. They quickly became interchangeable. Given that the Coda at $690 USD plays as well as most pernambuco bows I've played at three times the price, the WVs are a remarkable value.
Now Cirilo is making bows by hes self.
He's atelier e-mail is: brasilianbowmakersoutletshop@yahoo.com.br.
Please be free to ask more information.
Sincerely.
Natalia Cirilo
Bow advice....
Bow advice....
Hello all,
As some of you know I recently restord my grandfathers fiddle, but now I find myself in a dilemma <sp> once again. I need a bow. My question to all you fiddle players out there is this:
What should I buy? A student bow and save some cash? Or a better quality one that a luthier will be able to rehair and will last many year? Also, are there any things I should look for other than personal taste/preference when it comes to my purchase? I really am very confused....
If anyone could help out, that would be really great.
Justin
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by chef4life
Re: Bow advice....
There will be many varying opinions on this.
Id say get a decent bow, but not a very expensive one. You can probably get a good older bow that has maybe been repaired or is not perfect for 150-200 dollars. There are some graphite bows around that arent too bad either. The best advice would be to get someone who plays, even classical, to come along with you and tell you if the balance is good, but this isnt a big deal at first. Any bow around 100 dollars will do you for a while before you notice its limitations. Some good players even use crappy 50 dollar fibreglass bows with no complaints...but they're crazy.
The things I look for in a good bow are a combination of lightness and stiffness. It should feel lively but in control. My current bow is light and lively, but so lively that its a bit uncontrollable, hence Im searching for a new one.
After you've played for a while and are more aware of what you like, then save up your pennies and get yourself a real nice bow that will last a lifetime.
Cheers
~Brandon
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Bow advice....
I'd recommend getting a decent bow and staying away from the student models, if you can afford it. Nothing is more important or more difficult in fiddling than good bowing, and starting off with a flawed bow can lead to bad habits that cause problems later on. Others may disagree, but I'm speaking from experience here.
You don't have to spend a whole lot on a really good bow, though, just get a decent one. Although I haven't used one, carbon fiber bows seem to be becoming very popular as inexpensive and durable bows that perform very well; they're apparently nothing like the fiberglass junk. I'm tempted to buy one myself.
Like Brandon said, it really helps to have an experienced player along to try the bows and recommend one to you, because without experience it's hard to tell much about the pros and cons of a particular bow.
If you buy a wooden bow, be sure to sight down the length and make sure it's straight and try to make sure the camber (bend or arch) of the bow looks right. Warped bows aren't rare.
--Eric
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Marklar
Re: Bow advice....
See if you can't find someone who carries or can order bows from the "Water Violet" company out of Brazil. I own two other pernambuco bows (one valued at $2,500) and a Coda Classic carbon fiber ($700 new), and I'm enjoying the hell out of a Water Violet bow made by a man named Cirillo. It cost me $350 USD, and it's hands down the best bow I've ever held in 30 years of fiddling. Pernambuco stick, snakewood frog, and silver.
I have no connection to the company--just a very happy customer. So far, all six bows I've played from this company have been excellent. I'll be testing three more next week and choosing one for my "back up' bow.
Definitely get the best bow you can find/afford--it's half or more of the instrument (tone, responsiveness, power, etc.). Don't let a poorly made bow hold you back.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
if you're an absolute beginner, just get a cheap student bow. it will take some time to develop the mechanics of bowing to a level where it makes any difference. if you happen to lose interest in playing before then, you haven't sunk as much cash into it. i have a $25 brazilwood bow from Johnson Strings that's good enough for any beginner.
my 2 cents.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by polkageist
Re: Bow advice....
That's good advice too from silver bow. He lucked out, getting a decent, serviceable bow for $25. But it is possible. And my experience is that johnson strings will treat you fairly.
http://www.johnson-inst.com/
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
Incidentally, I just found that johnson strings carries bows from the Water Violet shop: http://www.johnson-inst.com/catalog/sale_bow.htm
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
I asked this question a few weeks ago. Best advise I got was..
Try out some bows, start with the cheapest and keep trying them, working your way up until you cant tell the difference.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by session savage
Re: Bow advice....
You can get very reasonably priced carbon fibre bows by tri-folk from www.timsviolins.co.uk , I've tried them and they are excellent quality for the price, a good bow to start with without spending a fortune.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by cathycook
Re: Bow advice....
the Arcos Brasil shop is another great shop comparable to Water Violet, as well as Horst John bows, but I think he has sold his shop.
The thing to look for in a bow is balance, whether it is a light stick or a heavier one. Round or octagonal is a personal preference and each will react a little differently. Play as many as you can...they all will sound different, and can make as much difference as a different set of strings or rosin.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Bow advice....
Since Johnson Strings has already been mentioned I will give it another shameless plug since I work there and focus mainly on the fiddle world. I’m mostly in the Cape Cod shop but go to the main shop about once a week. If you want to give me a call or shoot me an email we can talk about what you’re looking for. I’d be happy to play through some bows and send a few off to you for a trial.
As Will said, the Water Violet bows would be a great starting point, but we’ve got a number of bows in that price range. Our sales manager is a bow maker himself and I think that our selection of the lower end bows is exceptional as he plays through each one that is sent to us and only a small percentage makes it into the showroom and the rest are sent back.
Clayton March
508-495-5551
clayton@johnsonstring.com
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by iampeterfonda
Re: Bow advice....
So you're NOT peter fonda...
Clayton, kudos to you and your cohorts at Johnson Strings--great online interface and top notch service. Please let them know they are appreciated!
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
I will have to look into this Johnson Strings business. My bow is slightly warped in the dry months of winter and gets a little crazy at times.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Bow advice....
I tried a few of the carbon fibre bows from Shar. It cost $15 to try them and then I also had to pay for shipping. I suppose it would be better to just go into a shop. In any case, the Presto Ovation was a nice bow. The particular one I tried was a little to light for my taste, but the balance was nice. I did not try the $90 version, but that might be something to consider.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Jode
Re: Bow advice....
Lateral bends in bows usually arise naturally after a few years playing, and can usually be sorted out by a luthier in most cases. They aren't necessarily a reason for ditching the bow. A twist is more serious.
When you look at a bow to see if it has a lateral bend, do this when the hairs aren't under tension; because if the hairs aren't evenly tensioned across their width they can cause a slight bend in the bow when under tension. Again, not difficult for a luthier to deal with.
One of my bows has a slight lateral bend caused by uneven hair tension, although it doesn't affect my playing in any way and I'm not aware of it when playing, I'll have it seen to at the next rehairing. I noticed it some months after rehairing, and, mysteriously, it seems to have come on immediately after I unwisely lent the bow in a session to a fiddler who has a reputation for wrecking bows and had forgotten to bring his. A moral there, somewhere.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bow advice....
Wasn't me was it Trevor? I remember that session where I brought my fiddle and not the bow.
The money and bow question is difficult as I have found some very acceptable bows at £40 but they are very rare. The Water Violet bows are very good made by a team in Brazil and come under many varied stamps all with latin names. They also have a policy (or had when I worked in a fiddle shop that they planted as many trees as they felled which is good for you greenies out there. They were the best value bows in the shop, probably due to having the pick of the wood.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by tlittlewazzock
Re: Bow advice....
It really helps to understand how bows vary by feel and sound on a given instrument. this is a quick start strategy based on how much I learned about bows just by comparing a lot of them over time.
Find a store with the largest selection. (trad musics stores in the US often avoid the high price bows since they don't sell all that well. Play a bunch of very different bows one after the other on the same fiddle and bring along an experienced player to play for you to listen and comment on the bows. Play the 2K bow, 1.5K bow, the 1K bow , the $450-650, and the 100-200 or so. Plan to NOT buy that day -insist on a quiet private space to try them if they won't let you take them to tryout. The point is NOT to buy a bow but to get feel as quickly as possible for what bows feel like and what you like. Even a relatively inexperience player can quickly tell the big differences. A good bow has a lot to teach the intermediate player, IMHO. Avoid the I wait until I"m good enough to deserve it mentality. I wasted some time on that one myself. Even if cost is a critical factor, knowing the range can help you spot a true bargain.
PS Water Violet turned out to be a great buy for me. I got a great bow comparable to some of the multiK bows at around $650 dealer's cost new. However, the quality among their makes does vary widely. BUt even their cheap bows mostly weren't bad. Good luck! good bows are a wonderful thing.
# Posted on December 16th 2006 by ratbiscuit
Re: Bow advice....
No, Gavin, it wasn't you - but you can probably make a pretty good guess! When you forgot your bow, wasn't that when I lent you my carbon fibre viola bow?
# Posted on December 16th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bow advice....
The bow I currently use is a Coda Bow Classic. It's a nice carbon-fiber bow, but it is relatively expensive, at $600. At school, I use a coda bow conservatory, which is not bad either, and it is cheaper. They make a whole range of bows, from $265 to $765 direct.
The coda bow website: www.codabow.com
# Posted on December 16th 2006 by sharkbat
Re: Bow advice....
I recently purchased an Incredibow and I really like it. It's made of graphite and has synthetic hair. It's very light (39g) but has good sonic power because it is tightly strung. This tightness also completely eliminated a problem I had with bow bounce.
It also makes a much nicer sound than my old wooden bow (admittely, not a particularly good wooden bow).
It's very easy to play and is very stable and has helped improve my playing in various ways. I'm now much more agile in my playing because of it's light weight and the raw power it has means even a light touch still gives a good tone. And the eradication of bow bounce gives me much more confidence playing any note at any weight.
It's also cheap - it cost £80GBP (which is probably around $160USD), although I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper in the US as most things usually are.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by samuelbarros
Re: Bow advice....
I bought a second Water Violet bow, so now my Coda Classic is for sale.
Of the three newest Water Violets I tested, one had a slight yaw to the stick. The other two were excellent--I choose a round stick as a complement to my octagaonal Cirillo. Very similar feels, although the new one is a touch more lively.
# Posted on December 18th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
Will, what tonal direction does the Water Violet go, compared with the Coda Classic?
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Bow advice....
Actually, very similar. Full, round tone, from lows thru mid-range, to highs. Maybe the WVs are a touch warmer sounding, but it's too close to tell with my eyes closed. The WVs are somewhat friskier bows--the Coda is more steady and stable, even at speed.
Honestly, the main reason I switched was that the Water Violets are half the price of a Coda Classic. I bought the first one as a back up to the Coda as my main bow. They quickly became interchangeable. Given that the Coda at $690 USD plays as well as most pernambuco bows I've played at three times the price, the WVs are a remarkable value.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Bow advice....
one word-- pernambuco.. simple as
# Posted on December 23rd 2006 by fishtyfiddle
CIRILO ATELIER
Now Cirilo is making bows by hes self.
He's atelier e-mail is: brasilianbowmakersoutletshop@yahoo.com.br.
Please be free to ask more information.
Sincerely.
Natalia Cirilo
# Posted on April 27th 2007 by NATALIA CIRILO