Two questions from this newcomer to playing (on guitar) Celtic music: I'm a classically trained pianist and guitar player (strictly amateur) and a good sight-reader.
1. What does the sign resembling a fermata but without the dot under it, that appears over one note frequently, mean? Tonal or dynamic emphasis? Hold it just a bit long? Or something specialized I can't guess?
2. Why are there so many double accidentals in a lot of Celtic scores? There are more in some pieces than in a whole big volume of classical music. Is it because certain voice leadings are considered (as they used to be in classical music) technically "taboo" so this is a kind of euphemism? Or could it mean play the actual g-sharp instead of a-flat, in the case of a non-fretted instrument?
Thanks in advance for your help. I searched but if this has been covered, I couldn't find the answer. Nor on Google.
The score is not something to be followed precisely in Irish tunes, but merely the "bones" or guidelines to a tune. Most people here probably don't care about fermatas. If the symbol you're talking about is the one I'm thinking of, it probably represents a roll, or some type of rythymic ornamentation. Play a triplet there and see how it sounds?
One other thing, if you think of tunes in terms of a score with eighth notes of equal value, it's not going to sound right. You have to loosen up and feel the beat. Some notes are held slightly longer, others are just brushed across for an instant--even if they all have the same time value on the written page. I came from a classical violin background and it took a while to realize this. The best way to learn this style music is to first listen to the tune being played, not from sheetmusic.
I am somewhat of a beginner myself, but thats my 2 cents.
>Why are there so many double accidentals in a lot of Celtic scores?
I don't remember seeing any double accidentals.. have you an example? - maybe it's a "feature" of your tune book. You do get plenty of accidentals since many tunes are in other modes than major or minor.
>Or could it mean play the actual g-sharp instead of a-flat, in the case of a non-fretted instrument?
Nope - it wouldn't mean that - far too complicated
I won't say throw away the score, but try and get a recording of the tunes that you're interested in and see how the played music compares with the bare bones of dots. (or not!)
That thing that looks like a fermata without the dot is one of the old ways for signifying the ornamentation 'roll', for which there are a number of possibilities... As mentioned previously, listen, but even better, find a good teacher, sympatico, and learn some of those elements. Once you have an understanding, ears and technique, then using the skeleton of a transcription as a guide to new melodies will be useful.
It doesn't work well the other way around, trying to learn this music from lines and dots and squiggly bits... In actual fact, it is usually contrary to the hoped for results, our hopes anyway, and tends to result in a mechanical and clumsy way with the melodies that make up this shared passion... Something no one would want to tap their foot to or dance to or accompany...
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores ~ A GUITARIST!!!
Hey, so we can help this person at our best, it is important for us to know he is a guitarist...
I take it that you are finger-picking? Let us know more... There are some great folks on site here who could help direct you toward some sources, and, for example, if you haven't a teacher in the area, some support material. I love the guitar, but I can't help you there. We seem to have some great and considerate accompanists on site, and that is a valued art when done well, without push, and with respect for the other musicians present, and for the music. There are also some finger-pickers and some pluckers too ~ I could say we are all 'pluckers' here, but that wouldn't be true or necessarily kind...
Give us more of an idea of what it is you are trying to achieve. While I might not be able to help you, amongst all the possibilities will be some valued direction...
Most though not all the Irish dance tunes have been traditionally played and composed in one, two or three sharps. But some bands and players of recent years have tweaked the music up a semitone, and played / recorded in Eb, Ab, Bb, etc. - thought you'd better know, in case you did get CD's.
But if you can learn to play or at any rate accompany it on the piano, then in my opinion you're in - though some out there will disagree.
One favourite guitarist out of many ~ Dave MacIssac... He did an album of Cape Breton music all on guitar, but I don't think it is still available, however, I remember there was at least one MP3 track from that album somewhere on the following site, free education for your ears:
Hi Nicholas ~ on that comment, some recordings are of older instruments when tuning was sharp. I've one of those old instruments, unchange, A = 458... Things were more variable. There has also been the habit of tweaking the tempo upwards after the recording was made, which also gives one false impressions...
Breandán Breathnach had a chart of different types of ornaments in the first volume of Ceol Rince na hÉireann; his discussion in Folk Music and Dances of Ireland is also useful. Tomás Ó Canainn's Traditional Music in Ireland also has a very good discussion of style and ornamentation. Breathnach and others have tended to keep their transcriptions as simple as possible, recognizing that people who learn from the scores will be familiar with the sound of the music, and not wanting to clutter up the score. Some of the problems with accidentals probably come from transcibers who do not understand modes.
Welcome to the wonderful weird world of traditional music.
Double accidentals? Where are you getting these "celtic" scores? There are thousands of celtic (Scottish, irish, Welsh, Breton, etc.) tunes available on and off line in standard sheet music notation (such as at this site), but I ain't never seen no double accidentals in 'em. (Very few double negatives, either.) Could be, somewhere, but I haven't seen them. Don't recall the dot-less fermatas, either. It sounds like the arranger was trying to indicate some of his own performance practices, which may not have had much to do with actual celtic music.
If you want to play traditional music, hang out with traditional musicians (including here). If there aren't any in your are, hang out with them on line (such as here), or via CDs and web sites. For instance, at the BBC Virtual Session http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/ you can listen and play along, pause the tunes and move around in them, and even <ghasp> print out the sheet music. For Scottish music, try Ayepod. http://www.ayepod.net/
Listen to folks when they say listen to the music to learn it. Being able to read music will be convenient sometimes, but you'll have to have the style in your head. Classical training often helps your fingers go where you want them with more facility, but your head needs to know what you want it to sound like. There are plenty of classically trained musicians who have successfully made the transition to traditional music. Have fun!
Just a question - you say "Classically-trained" - does that mean you are playing a spanish ( nylon-strung ) guitar ? I haven't heard one of those in celtic music since Ronnie Drew of the Dubliners, showing my age, and you won't be audible on one in a decent crowded session. If I'm right, I suggest you go over to a steel-strung and toughen up the fingertips, if you want to join in and be heard, although, as many discussions here will tell you, melody on a guitar in a session is a bit of a waste of time. On your own, or in an arrangement, better.
Also, try listening to how Martin Simpson treats the playing of celtic music on the guitar - you might realise that his phrasing and accents are impossible to transcribe, but need to be heard to be understood.
All the other amswers to your question are excellent advice.
Hey jonrkc, I see you are in KC. Come to one of our sessions at Kennedy's Bar on 2nd and 4th Saturdays starting at 3pm. We'll show you some celtic scores!
But really, come to a session and see what it's all about. We've got a couple of good guitar players, and banjo and mando players for that matter. It might give you a perspective of what is possible.
Impossible for me to respond to each post above, but I'm fairly overwhelmed by the kind advice given by all. Many thanks! To touch on a few points: Yes, I play classical (nylon) guitar but have started on steel and in fact should get my Christmas-present-to-myself tomorrow, a Walden D740 guitar, if the post office doesn't smash it first.
I do intend to attend KC sessions, both the slow at All Souls' Unitarian Church, and the fast at Kennedy's. Would have been at Kennedy's last Saturday but sat all day waiting for the postal delivery that never came.
My goal is mainly to play for my own enjoyment and local and old-time friends, rather than to become really expert at traditional playing--though it goes without saying that would be wonderful. At 66 (I can't believe it: I feel 30 still...) I don't have all the time in the world left to me. But even if I can't join in I will enjoy listening to whatever good playing I can round up on recording or attend in person, and learn what I can.
I'm so relieved to hear about the eighth notes being only that--eighth notes. In the several pieces I've been playing, I knew in my musical bones such a plodding rhythm couldn't possibly be right.
Many of my scores have come from http://www.abacci.com/music/tabinstrument.asp?instrumentID=11
and those are the ones loaded with double accidentals. I asked both the owner of that site and a personal friend who's a professor of piano, and neither had any clue as to why they were there. All I can think of is that some musicians have funny ideas about harmony based on strict rules of theory, and one rule is that certain notes must not occur in certain places; so the way to get them there is to fudge by using (enharmonic) double accidentals--really silly, but true. Oh, well: I just play the real note and try to smile.
I wish I knew at least some Gaelic. My great-grandfather on my father's side (my mother's was German--a very common mountain-country combination!) came from Ireland probably due to the potato famine. But I know not a word, well, hardly a word, of it, and though I'm good at languages the looks and sound of Gaelic terrify me. That's off-topic, but thought I'd throw it in, or out.
Thanks again; I've saved this page to read over and follow links, and you've been very helpful and encouraging. This is a good forum. They are not all that common--as I'm sure most of you have found out in the past!
I just did a spot check of a dozen or so tunes on abacci.com, and couldn't find a single one with "double accidentals". They just look like standard renderings of ABC files.
jonrkc, maybe you can point to some specific examples, so we can help figure out what you're seeing.
I noticed double accidentals in others I looked at but which didn't so far appeal to me enough to print.
In "Trip to Athlone" it sounds obvious to me that the c double sharp is in fact played as a d (which is what c double sharp is, anyway!) but I fail to see why it's scored that way.
In "The Snowflake" there's both a double sharp g and a couple of double-flat b's in the third staff down (and the melody there is really odd to my ears, but I've got so I like it a lot, played fast).
Again, I see no reason that an a couldn't have been written for all three notes (the third is the next to the last note, a "b" which isn't naturalized and so remains double-flat, or a heard "a").
It's just a matter of curiosity to me, and a search with Google for double accidentals didn't shed any light. I looked in the concise (one-vol.) Grove's dictionary and that didn't help, either.
I had to refresh my memory about double accidentals first time I ran across these, it had been so long since I'd seen any. They are very rare in classical music, and they occur there only for theoretical reasons as I mentioned above--which strike me as silly, but I'm sure those rules are a kind of Holy Grail to a lot of musicians... My grasp of theory is just about nil, I freely admit. When I learned that parallel fifths were "forbidden" I kind of lost interest really quick.
Hi just had a look. The snowflake reel is actually an american tune. The double Bbs are meant to be just Bb. Not sure why they have been shown that way. I would take no notice of that sight and get your tunes from this site.
First, both those tunes in your links are very messed up. Big chunks of the tunes are missing, the endings are wrong, triplets are incorrect, etc.
Second, those double accidentals are mistakes, and should all be normal single sharps and flats. And forced naturals show up as an extra C-natural note instead of being applied to the following note. A real mess.
Either the underlying ABC files on abacci.com are wrong, or the software used to generate the printed music is defective.
I agree, avoid that site like the plague. If the owner of the site doesn't know enough to recognize and explain the problem, that's bad news. And if you're learning mangled versions of the tunes, you're doing yourself a big disservice. Stick to the tunes here at thesession for now.
I agree. The transcription on that website is utter sh*te. This is another good reason to learn the tunes by ear off CDs or session recordings. You need to learn tunes when you've heard them before and can sing them to yourself. That way when you come across rubbish sheetmusic you'll be able to spot it immediately.
The best thing to do is listen to Tony McMannus playing fingerstyle guitar(if that's what you are into) to give you some ideas. Then start listening to fiddlers and pipers etc, players who just play the melody to get into the essence of the music. Then have a listen to how the great backup players like Artie McGlyn back the music. Then put it all together. Lots of luck.
Oooh... Thanks for pointing out what I never would have known. I'll follow your recommendations, MTGuru, thedon, and Noxious Blanket. It may be a bit late in my life to start in on something I know nothing about, but I've always been a pretty good learner. I have no intention nor desire to become any kind of expert, but I do want to get general basic knowledge and be at least halfway correct in what I play (and you're right, fingerpicking is my thing here), so for one thing I'll get tunes here mostly, and listen to what I can. On a fixed income it's not practical to add dozens of CD's to my large classical collection (accumulated when my income *wasn't* fixed ), but our libraries and Half Price Books, etc., should furnish something of worth, in addition to what I may be lucky enough to find elsewhere.
And I do intend to go to those local sessions. Maybe a kind guitarist will give me some pointers in person.
Many thanks for all these contributions. I've only ever been on one other forum with such gracious responses, and that was the premier cycling forum on the Web. I'm a cyclist, or was until a probable stroke messed up my sense of balance; I contributed a couple thousand posts to the cyclists' forum and received in turn the kind of very useful help and support I'm finding here. What a pleasure!
Well, well... Gerald Trimble is a Kansas City musician, if I'm not mistaken. I will make note of all these suggestions and do my best to follow up on them, though I also need some time to practice guitar, eat, sleep (I hate sleep), debug my computer problems, etc.
There are enough leads on this page alone to keep me busy for a half year!
For now, I'm following ceolachan's advice to "go away and think on it." Be assured I will (think on it).
Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Two questions from this newcomer to playing (on guitar) Celtic music: I'm a classically trained pianist and guitar player (strictly amateur) and a good sight-reader.
1. What does the sign resembling a fermata but without the dot under it, that appears over one note frequently, mean? Tonal or dynamic emphasis? Hold it just a bit long? Or something specialized I can't guess?
2. Why are there so many double accidentals in a lot of Celtic scores? There are more in some pieces than in a whole big volume of classical music. Is it because certain voice leadings are considered (as they used to be in classical music) technically "taboo" so this is a kind of euphemism? Or could it mean play the actual g-sharp instead of a-flat, in the case of a non-fretted instrument?
Thanks in advance for your help. I searched but if this has been covered, I couldn't find the answer. Nor on Google.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
The score is not something to be followed precisely in Irish tunes, but merely the "bones" or guidelines to a tune. Most people here probably don't care about fermatas. If the symbol you're talking about is the one I'm thinking of, it probably represents a roll, or some type of rythymic ornamentation. Play a triplet there and see how it sounds?
One other thing, if you think of tunes in terms of a score with eighth notes of equal value, it's not going to sound right. You have to loosen up and feel the beat. Some notes are held slightly longer, others are just brushed across for an instant--even if they all have the same time value on the written page. I came from a classical violin background and it took a while to realize this. The best way to learn this style music is to first listen to the tune being played, not from sheetmusic.
I am somewhat of a beginner myself, but thats my 2 cents.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by polkageist
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Please throw away your "score" and listen to some trad CDs. Your classical training and sight reading skills will not help you find your rhythm.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
>Why are there so many double accidentals in a lot of Celtic scores?
I don't remember seeing any double accidentals.. have you an example? - maybe it's a "feature" of your tune book. You do get plenty of accidentals since many tunes are in other modes than major or minor.
>Or could it mean play the actual g-sharp instead of a-flat, in the case of a non-fretted instrument?
Nope - it wouldn't mean that - far too complicated
I won't say throw away the score, but try and get a recording of the tunes that you're interested in and see how the played music compares with the bare bones of dots. (or not!)
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by spindizzy
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
That thing that looks like a fermata without the dot is one of the old ways for signifying the ornamentation 'roll', for which there are a number of possibilities... As mentioned previously, listen, but even better, find a good teacher, sympatico, and learn some of those elements. Once you have an understanding, ears and technique, then using the skeleton of a transcription as a guide to new melodies will be useful.
It doesn't work well the other way around, trying to learn this music from lines and dots and squiggly bits... In actual fact, it is usually contrary to the hoped for results, our hopes anyway, and tends to result in a mechanical and clumsy way with the melodies that make up this shared passion... Something no one would want to tap their foot to or dance to or accompany...
Best of luck...
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores ~ A GUITARIST!!!
Hey, so we can help this person at our best, it is important for us to know he is a guitarist...
I take it that you are finger-picking? Let us know more... There are some great folks on site here who could help direct you toward some sources, and, for example, if you haven't a teacher in the area, some support material. I love the guitar, but I can't help you there. We seem to have some great and considerate accompanists on site, and that is a valued art when done well, without push, and with respect for the other musicians present, and for the music. There are also some finger-pickers and some pluckers too ~ I could say we are all 'pluckers' here, but that wouldn't be true or necessarily kind...
Give us more of an idea of what it is you are trying to achieve. While I might not be able to help you, amongst all the possibilities will be some valued direction...
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Most though not all the Irish dance tunes have been traditionally played and composed in one, two or three sharps. But some bands and players of recent years have tweaked the music up a semitone, and played / recorded in Eb, Ab, Bb, etc. - thought you'd better know, in case you did get CD's.
But if you can learn to play or at any rate accompany it on the piano, then in my opinion you're in - though some out there will disagree.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
One favourite guitarist out of many ~ Dave MacIssac... He did an album of Cape Breton music all on guitar, but I don't think it is still available, however, I remember there was at least one MP3 track from that album somewhere on the following site, free education for your ears:
http://www.cranfordpub.com/
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Hi Nicholas ~ on that comment, some recordings are of older instruments when tuning was sharp. I've one of those old instruments, unchange, A = 458... Things were more variable. There has also been the habit of tweaking the tempo upwards after the recording was made, which also gives one false impressions...
But hey, you're OK, you can capo...
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Breandán Breathnach had a chart of different types of ornaments in the first volume of Ceol Rince na hÉireann; his discussion in Folk Music and Dances of Ireland is also useful. Tomás Ó Canainn's Traditional Music in Ireland also has a very good discussion of style and ornamentation. Breathnach and others have tended to keep their transcriptions as simple as possible, recognizing that people who learn from the scores will be familiar with the sound of the music, and not wanting to clutter up the score. Some of the problems with accidentals probably come from transcibers who do not understand modes.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by dwdeacon
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Welcome to the wonderful weird world of traditional music.
Double accidentals? Where are you getting these "celtic" scores? There are thousands of celtic (Scottish, irish, Welsh, Breton, etc.) tunes available on and off line in standard sheet music notation (such as at this site), but I ain't never seen no double accidentals in 'em. (Very few double negatives, either.) Could be, somewhere, but I haven't seen them. Don't recall the dot-less fermatas, either. It sounds like the arranger was trying to indicate some of his own performance practices, which may not have had much to do with actual celtic music.
If you want to play traditional music, hang out with traditional musicians (including here). If there aren't any in your are, hang out with them on line (such as here), or via CDs and web sites. For instance, at the BBC Virtual Session http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/ you can listen and play along, pause the tunes and move around in them, and even <ghasp> print out the sheet music. For Scottish music, try Ayepod. http://www.ayepod.net/
Listen to folks when they say listen to the music to learn it. Being able to read music will be convenient sometimes, but you'll have to have the style in your head. Classical training often helps your fingers go where you want them with more facility, but your head needs to know what you want it to sound like. There are plenty of classically trained musicians who have successfully made the transition to traditional music. Have fun!
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Tracie
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Just a question - you say "Classically-trained" - does that mean you are playing a spanish ( nylon-strung ) guitar ? I haven't heard one of those in celtic music since Ronnie Drew of the Dubliners, showing my age, and you won't be audible on one in a decent crowded session. If I'm right, I suggest you go over to a steel-strung and toughen up the fingertips, if you want to join in and be heard, although, as many discussions here will tell you, melody on a guitar in a session is a bit of a waste of time. On your own, or in an arrangement, better.
Also, try listening to how Martin Simpson treats the playing of celtic music on the guitar - you might realise that his phrasing and accents are impossible to transcribe, but need to be heard to be understood.
All the other amswers to your question are excellent advice.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Hey jonrkc, I see you are in KC. Come to one of our sessions at Kennedy's Bar on 2nd and 4th Saturdays starting at 3pm. We'll show you some celtic scores!
But really, come to a session and see what it's all about. We've got a couple of good guitar players, and banjo and mando players for that matter. It might give you a perspective of what is possible.
Roger
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by rogfox
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Nylon sting Guitar.....Steve Cooney and Jim Murray. They've only played on about a thousand albums between them. Guernsey Pete needs to listen more.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by woops
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Impossible for me to respond to each post above, but I'm fairly overwhelmed by the kind advice given by all. Many thanks! To touch on a few points: Yes, I play classical (nylon) guitar but have started on steel and in fact should get my Christmas-present-to-myself tomorrow, a Walden D740 guitar, if the post office doesn't smash it first.
I do intend to attend KC sessions, both the slow at All Souls' Unitarian Church, and the fast at Kennedy's. Would have been at Kennedy's last Saturday but sat all day waiting for the postal delivery that never came.
My goal is mainly to play for my own enjoyment and local and old-time friends, rather than to become really expert at traditional playing--though it goes without saying that would be wonderful. At 66 (I can't believe it: I feel 30 still...) I don't have all the time in the world left to me. But even if I can't join in I will enjoy listening to whatever good playing I can round up on recording or attend in person, and learn what I can.
I'm so relieved to hear about the eighth notes being only that--eighth notes. In the several pieces I've been playing, I knew in my musical bones such a plodding rhythm couldn't possibly be right.
Many of my scores have come from
http://www.abacci.com/music/tabinstrument.asp?instrumentID=11
and those are the ones loaded with double accidentals. I asked both the owner of that site and a personal friend who's a professor of piano, and neither had any clue as to why they were there. All I can think of is that some musicians have funny ideas about harmony based on strict rules of theory, and one rule is that certain notes must not occur in certain places; so the way to get them there is to fudge by using (enharmonic) double accidentals--really silly, but true. Oh, well: I just play the real note and try to smile.
I wish I knew at least some Gaelic. My great-grandfather on my father's side (my mother's was German--a very common mountain-country combination!) came from Ireland probably due to the potato famine. But I know not a word, well, hardly a word, of it, and though I'm good at languages the looks and sound of Gaelic terrify me. That's off-topic, but thought I'd throw it in, or out.
Thanks again; I've saved this page to read over and follow links, and you've been very helpful and encouraging. This is a good forum. They are not all that common--as I'm sure most of you have found out in the past!
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
I just did a spot check of a dozen or so tunes on abacci.com, and couldn't find a single one with "double accidentals". They just look like standard renderings of ABC files.
jonrkc, maybe you can point to some specific examples, so we can help figure out what you're seeing.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by Rumgut
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Of the tunes I actually downloaded and printed out, these two have double accidentals:
The Snowflake (reel)
http://www.abacci.com/music/tunetab.asp?tunetabID=12594
and Trip to Athlone (jig)
http://www.abacci.com/music/tunetab.asp?tunetabID=12986
I noticed double accidentals in others I looked at but which didn't so far appeal to me enough to print.
In "Trip to Athlone" it sounds obvious to me that the c double sharp is in fact played as a d (which is what c double sharp is, anyway!) but I fail to see why it's scored that way.
In "The Snowflake" there's both a double sharp g and a couple of double-flat b's in the third staff down (and the melody there is really odd to my ears, but I've got so I like it a lot, played fast).
Again, I see no reason that an a couldn't have been written for all three notes (the third is the next to the last note, a "b" which isn't naturalized and so remains double-flat, or a heard "a").
It's just a matter of curiosity to me, and a search with Google for double accidentals didn't shed any light. I looked in the concise (one-vol.) Grove's dictionary and that didn't help, either.
I had to refresh my memory about double accidentals first time I ran across these, it had been so long since I'd seen any. They are very rare in classical music, and they occur there only for theoretical reasons as I mentioned above--which strike me as silly, but I'm sure those rules are a kind of Holy Grail to a lot of musicians... My grasp of theory is just about nil, I freely admit. When I learned that parallel fifths were "forbidden" I kind of lost interest really quick.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Hi just had a look. The snowflake reel is actually an american tune. The double Bbs are meant to be just Bb. Not sure why they have been shown that way. I would take no notice of that sight and get your tunes from this site.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by woops
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Ay caramba! Yes, I see the problem.
First, both those tunes in your links are very messed up. Big chunks of the tunes are missing, the endings are wrong, triplets are incorrect, etc.
Second, those double accidentals are mistakes, and should all be normal single sharps and flats. And forced naturals show up as an extra C-natural note instead of being applied to the following note. A real mess.
Either the underlying ABC files on abacci.com are wrong, or the software used to generate the printed music is defective.
I agree, avoid that site like the plague. If the owner of the site doesn't know enough to recognize and explain the problem, that's bad news. And if you're learning mangled versions of the tunes, you're doing yourself a big disservice. Stick to the tunes here at thesession for now.
Then go to the ABC Home Page to learn about the wonderful world of ABC notation:
http://www.walshaw.plus.com/abc/
Welcome, and enjoy!
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by Rumgut
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
I agree. The transcription on that website is utter sh*te. This is another good reason to learn the tunes by ear off CDs or session recordings. You need to learn tunes when you've heard them before and can sing them to yourself. That way when you come across rubbish sheetmusic you'll be able to spot it immediately.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
The best thing to do is listen to Tony McMannus playing fingerstyle guitar(if that's what you are into) to give you some ideas. Then start listening to fiddlers and pipers etc, players who just play the melody to get into the essence of the music. Then have a listen to how the great backup players like Artie McGlyn back the music. Then put it all together. Lots of luck.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by woops
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Oooh... Thanks for pointing out what I never would have known. I'll follow your recommendations, MTGuru, thedon, and Noxious Blanket. It may be a bit late in my life to start in on something I know nothing about, but I've always been a pretty good learner. I have no intention nor desire to become any kind of expert, but I do want to get general basic knowledge and be at least halfway correct in what I play (and you're right, fingerpicking is my thing here), so for one thing I'll get tunes here mostly, and listen to what I can. On a fixed income it's not practical to add dozens of CD's to my large classical collection (accumulated when my income *wasn't* fixed
), but our libraries and Half Price Books, etc., should furnish something of worth, in addition to what I may be lucky enough to find elsewhere.
And I do intend to go to those local sessions. Maybe a kind guitarist will give me some pointers in person.
Many thanks for all these contributions. I've only ever been on one other forum with such gracious responses, and that was the premier cycling forum on the Web. I'm a cyclist, or was until a probable stroke messed up my sense of balance; I contributed a couple thousand posts to the cyclists' forum and received in turn the kind of very useful help and support I'm finding here. What a pleasure!
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
One good CD is worth a 100 second rate ones... Ask for a 'few' recommendations, ones that feature guitar and of the sort of music you're after...
Following on from 'thedon':
http://www.tonymcmanus.com/
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by ceolachan
Here's just a quick two ~
"Gerald Trimble: First Flight" ~ Cittern
Submitted on March 2nd 2003 by octogreg.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/468
"Portland" ~ Kevin Burke & Micheal O'Domhnaill
Submitted on March 5th 2002 by purplefiddler.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/100
Now to go away and think on it...
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by ceolachan
"Mick Moloney: Strings Attached" ~ mandolin
Submitted on March 28th 2002 by x.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/135
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by ceolachan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Y655mjACE
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by ceolachan
DVDs ~
"Celtic Fingerstyle Guitar According to Tony McManus ~ Vols. 1 & 2"
http://www.guitargallerymusic.com/
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Conventions in Celtic/Gaelic music scores
Well, well... Gerald Trimble is a Kansas City musician, if I'm not mistaken. I will make note of all these suggestions and do my best to follow up on them, though I also need some time to practice guitar, eat, sleep (I hate sleep), debug my computer problems, etc.
There are enough leads on this page alone to keep me busy for a half year!
For now, I'm following ceolachan's advice to "go away and think on it." Be assured I will (think on it).
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by jonrkc