The killer D made an appearance at last night's ceili. This is a problem I have been battling for years, ever since I first mic-ed my fiddle. The D string really rings out and causes all kinds of feedback problems.
The other fiddler thought it was a Wolf Tone. He also said that there is some sort of sleeve or cuff that you can get to put on the string between the bridge and the tailpiece that will eliminate wolf tones.
Has anyone used something like this? Any other suggestions?
Probably you need to find a luthier. Stray tones can come from a variety of sources but a luthier is the best person to set you right. I notice, however, that Southwest Strings advertises two wolf-tone eliminators. I'm lucky that I haven't had the need.
I don't play violin, but I know about the wolf-tone "eliminators" for cello, and a search for ones for violin turned up several hits, of which this is one: look kinda down the page for it.
Hmm... I think wolf tones are pretty uncommon on fiddles (they are common on cellos though), and what you're describing sounds a bit more like a mic placement issue than a wolf tone. Wolf tones sound more like unsympathetic vibrations: there's a sound sample here: http://whyfiles.org/shorties/087fiddle_physics/. Besides, a wolf would have less to do with the microphone than the fiddle itself.
On the other hand, if your mic is placed over the left f-hole, then you'd often get the kind of booming you describe. Just move the mic away from the hole a bit.
Alternately, you can always address the feedback issue with EQ, but I'm sure you've already considered that...
Another possibility: the tone controls of the sound system were set in a way that boosted your D string.
If the D string seems to behave itself when you are not amplified, you should try adjusting the tone controls of the PA system, or maybe get yourself a preamp or graphic equalizer so you can adjust your own frequencies independently.
Although you say it's been a problem for years... sorry, if I have belabored the obvious.
Ditto on the sound hole advice, though. My clip-on fiddle mic will feed back like crazy if I place it directly over the f-hole. But if I move it just slightly to the side, problem solved.
Hey George and all, thanks for the info. With the distortion through a microphone, it can sound like that wolftone sample. To the naked ear, it just rings out, volume-wise. And it is the instrument, not just the string, because in some conditions, the D on the A string will give me feedback as well.
Last night, we were using a board that did not have a good EQ band on it, so I could not make that adjustment. And I did have a clip-on AT mic and moved it over the treble f-hole. These things can work, and have for the most part over the years. Last night was difficult, though.
Is there a good pre-amp that I could use with a Audio Technica clip-on mic? I have the Baggs one, but that does not have the right kind of input; and an XLR to 1/4in jack converter has not worked in the past.
Hmm, another thing I just thought about was the type of string. Would a string that vibrates more emphasize this problem? I am playing Dominant right now, having recently played Heliocores. It's amazing how much more the Dominants vibrate.
Finally, has anyone actually used one of those wolftone eliminators for a violin/fiddle?
As a cellist, I know a bit about the wolf on the cello. It is almost always the F or F# on the G-string (so in a higher position). In a bad case it is an unpleasant juddering of the note, quite distinctive and you'll do just about anything to avoid playing it. In lesser cases you can play through it with bow control, and in the least cases, if it is present, it is no more than a slight increase or "boxiness" in the tone of that note. If you have a bad case of the G-string wolf it may also be present to a lesser extent on the F or F# on the C-string, but on that string is, in my experience, something that can be controlled with the bow.
The wolf-killer, a brass sleeve surrounding a thick-walled rubber tube, is fitted to the after-length of the G-string between the bridge and tail-piece, approximately at half-way. Its position is fairly critical for it to work properly, but it's easy enough to adjust by sliding it along the string until it works, and then tightening the little screw that holds it in place on the string. The other effect, apart from getting rid of the wolf, is a slight reduction in the overall tone of the string, almost a small muting effect. I've heard that there is something that can be fitted internally, but I have no further information.
An odd thing about the cello wolf, if you don't use the brass sleeve wolf-killer, is that it disappears when you use a standard orchestral mute (the black rubber one, not the wire contraption that slides up the after-lengths and ruins the windings). This, I think, indicates that the bridge is involved somehow in the production of the wolf. The cello bridge is different from the fiddle bridge - it is much higher in relation to its width than the fiddle bridge - and I wonder perhaps it is possible that the natural flexing of this taller bridge (all bridges are designed to flex slightly) might be interacting with the vibrations of the belly to produce the wolf. I don't really know. This is going very deeply into the acoustic physics of a complex structure, and answers, if any, will probably only be found in the published papers of research institutes - does anyone on this forum know?
Very occasionally, a cello wolf will occur on another string. Some time ago I noticed that Julian Lloyd Webber's Strad cello unusually had a wolf-killer on the after-length of the A-string. Even the best cellos are prone to wolfs, and it could perhaps be said that only the dullest-sounding cheap instruments are free of them.
A wolf is rare on stopped notes on a fiddle (perhaps because of the bridge shape?), and if a wolf happens with an open string (e.g the D) then something needs to be done about the setup - soundpost, bridge, bass bar (perhaps).
Sometimes, a cello wolf can be minimised by choice of strings. I'm not making a general point here, but I've noticed the wolf on my old French cello almost disappears (and is easy to play through) if I use Obligato strings rather than metal-core. A case, perhaps, of lower tension and less down-pressure on the bridge?
Lazyhound mentions an internal "fix" for cello wolf tones. I am currently playing three different guitars, two classical and one steel-string, and all three have wolf tones on the b string--enough that it confuses an electronic tuner sometimes. The b strings are not over-loud or too bright, though; just muddy in that awful jangly way (hard to describe). Some guitarists claim to have fixed this with a piece of "blue tac" (that instant-stick-on easy-remove stuff like putty) inside the soundboard at just the right place. I experimented and found no help from it. And guitars don't have eliminators available. But while it may be the recording at fault, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the string doing it--maybe in conjunction with the mike's frequency curve.
By the way, I read on a site recently (sorry I didn't make a note of where, but it was a respectable luthier talking) that all string instruments have one string that gives trouble, due to the interaction of its resonance and what the soundboard and the rest of the instrument expect it to be.
And the better the instrument (e.g. a Spanish guitar) the more likely you'll have a note or two that just doesn't resonate. Many years ago, in my guitar-playing days, I had a Taurus (with a "Ramirez" signature deep inside where it could only be seen with a mirror, btw) with a great tone and response, except for the C on the top E-string. That one note just didn't respond well, no matter how it was played, or on the type of string. My teacher, a qualified guitar luthier, explained that this sort of thing was characteristic of the better instruments.
An interesting point that has occurred to me is what happens to these poor/wolf notes (on a fiddle or cello) if you tune the instrument down to baroque pitch (about A415). I do know that the overall tone and resonance of most fiddles is improved if this is done. I think this is because the fiddle was originally designed for optimum resonance at that lower pitch with lower tension in the strings (which would have been gut). Possibly, today's A440 pitch takes the fiddle out of its optimum region. This effect is even more apparent if the fiddle is taken up a further half-tone, as some players do, perhaps because of the tuning of reed instruments they may be playing with. The tone and playing feels "tight", even if there is a little extra brightness. Today's A440 pitch was probably driven in the post baroque and classical eras by the quest of brass instruments in the orchestra for more power and brightness. All the other instruments of course had to follow suit, and metal-cored strings became common.
As an aside, a few weeks ago I was talking to an English folk fiddler who also plays in a baroque ensemble using a baroque fiddle with all gut strings at the lower pitch. He said you get best results for stable tuning if all the strings have no winding. The pitch of wound gut G and D climbs all over the place.
In case someone refers to this thread; I took off the Dominant strings, put on Heliocores and an anti-wolf sleeve. The strings make a big difference, but I am not sure about the sleeve. In the end, I have not had any more problems with feedback.
I'm obsessed with Helicores. I find it fascinating that nearly every "fiddler" I talk to is an automatic fan of the Dominants. Just curious, is that what you were using before?
Exhuberant D string
Exhuberant D string
The killer D made an appearance at last night's ceili. This is a problem I have been battling for years, ever since I first mic-ed my fiddle. The D string really rings out and causes all kinds of feedback problems.
The other fiddler thought it was a Wolf Tone. He also said that there is some sort of sleeve or cuff that you can get to put on the string between the bridge and the tailpiece that will eliminate wolf tones.
Has anyone used something like this? Any other suggestions?
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Jode
Re: Exhuberant D string
Probably you need to find a luthier. Stray tones can come from a variety of sources but a luthier is the best person to set you right. I notice, however, that Southwest Strings advertises two wolf-tone eliminators. I'm lucky that I haven't had the need.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by dwdeacon
Re: Exhuberant D string
I don't play violin, but I know about the wolf-tone "eliminators" for cello, and a search for ones for violin turned up several hits, of which this is one: look kinda down the page for it.
http://www.violins.on.ca/mutes.html
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Exhuberant D string
Dwdeacon found the same item I did. Posts crossed in the mail...
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Exhuberant D string
Wolf tones on open strings are rare...IF you do have a wolf, it could be the afterlength of the string from bridge to tailpiece.
I would suggest that it more than likely is the frequency response of the microphone (or system) you are using.
If you had a wolf, it would be audible without the mic.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Sunnybear
Re: Exhuberant D string
Jode,
Hmm... I think wolf tones are pretty uncommon on fiddles (they are common on cellos though), and what you're describing sounds a bit more like a mic placement issue than a wolf tone. Wolf tones sound more like unsympathetic vibrations: there's a sound sample here: http://whyfiles.org/shorties/087fiddle_physics/. Besides, a wolf would have less to do with the microphone than the fiddle itself.
On the other hand, if your mic is placed over the left f-hole, then you'd often get the kind of booming you describe. Just move the mic away from the hole a bit.
Alternately, you can always address the feedback issue with EQ, but I'm sure you've already considered that...
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Exhuberant D string
Oh, and...
You might also want to make sure the dry Minnesota weather hasn't shrunk your fiddle enough to open up a seam, or loosen the bass bar..
Tis the season, after all.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Exhuberant D string
Another possibility: the tone controls of the sound system were set in a way that boosted your D string.
If the D string seems to behave itself when you are not amplified, you should try adjusting the tone controls of the PA system, or maybe get yourself a preamp or graphic equalizer so you can adjust your own frequencies independently.
Although you say it's been a problem for years... sorry, if I have belabored the obvious.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Exhuberant D string
Here's the correct link for the wolf-tone sound sample I mentioned above:
http://whyfiles.org/shorties/087fiddle_physics/images/wolftone.mov
And here it is on the cello:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/WolfTone.ogg
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Exhuberant D string
oops, cross-posted with Georgi.
Ditto on the sound hole advice, though. My clip-on fiddle mic will feed back like crazy if I place it directly over the f-hole. But if I move it just slightly to the side, problem solved.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by John Galt
Re: Exhuberant D string
Hey George and all, thanks for the info. With the distortion through a microphone, it can sound like that wolftone sample. To the naked ear, it just rings out, volume-wise. And it is the instrument, not just the string, because in some conditions, the D on the A string will give me feedback as well.
Last night, we were using a board that did not have a good EQ band on it, so I could not make that adjustment. And I did have a clip-on AT mic and moved it over the treble f-hole. These things can work, and have for the most part over the years. Last night was difficult, though.
Is there a good pre-amp that I could use with a Audio Technica clip-on mic? I have the Baggs one, but that does not have the right kind of input; and an XLR to 1/4in jack converter has not worked in the past.
Hmm, another thing I just thought about was the type of string. Would a string that vibrates more emphasize this problem? I am playing Dominant right now, having recently played Heliocores. It's amazing how much more the Dominants vibrate.
Finally, has anyone actually used one of those wolftone eliminators for a violin/fiddle?
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Jode
Re: Exhuberant D string
As a cellist, I know a bit about the wolf on the cello. It is almost always the F or F# on the G-string (so in a higher position). In a bad case it is an unpleasant juddering of the note, quite distinctive and you'll do just about anything to avoid playing it. In lesser cases you can play through it with bow control, and in the least cases, if it is present, it is no more than a slight increase or "boxiness" in the tone of that note. If you have a bad case of the G-string wolf it may also be present to a lesser extent on the F or F# on the C-string, but on that string is, in my experience, something that can be controlled with the bow.
The wolf-killer, a brass sleeve surrounding a thick-walled rubber tube, is fitted to the after-length of the G-string between the bridge and tail-piece, approximately at half-way. Its position is fairly critical for it to work properly, but it's easy enough to adjust by sliding it along the string until it works, and then tightening the little screw that holds it in place on the string. The other effect, apart from getting rid of the wolf, is a slight reduction in the overall tone of the string, almost a small muting effect. I've heard that there is something that can be fitted internally, but I have no further information.
An odd thing about the cello wolf, if you don't use the brass sleeve wolf-killer, is that it disappears when you use a standard orchestral mute (the black rubber one, not the wire contraption that slides up the after-lengths and ruins the windings). This, I think, indicates that the bridge is involved somehow in the production of the wolf. The cello bridge is different from the fiddle bridge - it is much higher in relation to its width than the fiddle bridge - and I wonder perhaps it is possible that the natural flexing of this taller bridge (all bridges are designed to flex slightly) might be interacting with the vibrations of the belly to produce the wolf. I don't really know. This is going very deeply into the acoustic physics of a complex structure, and answers, if any, will probably only be found in the published papers of research institutes - does anyone on this forum know?
Very occasionally, a cello wolf will occur on another string. Some time ago I noticed that Julian Lloyd Webber's Strad cello unusually had a wolf-killer on the after-length of the A-string. Even the best cellos are prone to wolfs, and it could perhaps be said that only the dullest-sounding cheap instruments are free of them.
A wolf is rare on stopped notes on a fiddle (perhaps because of the bridge shape?), and if a wolf happens with an open string (e.g the D) then something needs to be done about the setup - soundpost, bridge, bass bar (perhaps).
Sometimes, a cello wolf can be minimised by choice of strings. I'm not making a general point here, but I've noticed the wolf on my old French cello almost disappears (and is easy to play through) if I use Obligato strings rather than metal-core. A case, perhaps, of lower tension and less down-pressure on the bridge?
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Exhuberant D string
Lazyhound mentions an internal "fix" for cello wolf tones. I am currently playing three different guitars, two classical and one steel-string, and all three have wolf tones on the b string--enough that it confuses an electronic tuner sometimes. The b strings are not over-loud or too bright, though; just muddy in that awful jangly way (hard to describe). Some guitarists claim to have fixed this with a piece of "blue tac" (that instant-stick-on easy-remove stuff like putty) inside the soundboard at just the right place. I experimented and found no help from it. And guitars don't have eliminators available. But while it may be the recording at fault, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the string doing it--maybe in conjunction with the mike's frequency curve.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Exhuberant D string
By the way, I read on a site recently (sorry I didn't make a note of where, but it was a respectable luthier talking) that all string instruments have one string that gives trouble, due to the interaction of its resonance and what the soundboard and the rest of the instrument expect it to be.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Exhuberant D string
And the better the instrument (e.g. a Spanish guitar) the more likely you'll have a note or two that just doesn't resonate. Many years ago, in my guitar-playing days, I had a Taurus (with a "Ramirez" signature deep inside where it could only be seen with a mirror, btw) with a great tone and response, except for the C on the top E-string. That one note just didn't respond well, no matter how it was played, or on the type of string. My teacher, a qualified guitar luthier, explained that this sort of thing was characteristic of the better instruments.
An interesting point that has occurred to me is what happens to these poor/wolf notes (on a fiddle or cello) if you tune the instrument down to baroque pitch (about A415). I do know that the overall tone and resonance of most fiddles is improved if this is done. I think this is because the fiddle was originally designed for optimum resonance at that lower pitch with lower tension in the strings (which would have been gut). Possibly, today's A440 pitch takes the fiddle out of its optimum region. This effect is even more apparent if the fiddle is taken up a further half-tone, as some players do, perhaps because of the tuning of reed instruments they may be playing with. The tone and playing feels "tight", even if there is a little extra brightness. Today's A440 pitch was probably driven in the post baroque and classical eras by the quest of brass instruments in the orchestra for more power and brightness. All the other instruments of course had to follow suit, and metal-cored strings became common.
As an aside, a few weeks ago I was talking to an English folk fiddler who also plays in a baroque ensemble using a baroque fiddle with all gut strings at the lower pitch. He said you get best results for stable tuning if all the strings have no winding. The pitch of wound gut G and D climbs all over the place.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Exhuberant D string
Thanks for all the information everyone. I might just do some experimentation with strings and maybe try that anti-wolf sleeve for kicks.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by Jode
Re: Exhuberant D string
In case someone refers to this thread; I took off the Dominant strings, put on Heliocores and an anti-wolf sleeve. The strings make a big difference, but I am not sure about the sleeve. In the end, I have not had any more problems with feedback.
# Posted on February 19th 2007 by Jode
Re: Exhuberant D string
I'm obsessed with Helicores. I find it fascinating that nearly every "fiddler" I talk to is an automatic fan of the Dominants. Just curious, is that what you were using before?
# Posted on March 7th 2007 by ainefidileir