hi folks , Ive been playing Irish tunes for a while on the guitar . For a change , I recently started listening to Doc Watson and picked out a few tunes and recorded myself. They sound like reels Irish style! Try as I might I cant make em sound 'American'! I know its the Irish reel swing Im trying to lose but I cant , even when I think Im playing straight at the time , its doesnt sound like that on play back!
Anyone ever have a similar problem on guitar , banjo or mando?
It also worries me if i lose the swing , will i get it back!?
In bluegrass you're playing with the bass, so start there - don't lose that front beat. It might even help to play the first note somewhat truncated to stay ever so slightly ahead of the beat, sort of like how in a jig you hang onto the first note a fraction of a moment longer to give it a little bounce, only the other way around. Then listen to the runs done by the fiddle to give you a better idea of what the tune feels like.. listening to the fiddle is slightly easier than trying to 'decode' any particular guitarist to achieve the correct rhythmic feel. But unlike the treatment for Irish tunes, the bluegrass guitar technique is more chromatic with frequent slurs made by short slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs. Don't try to pick each individual note, or else you're maintaining that tight, popping Irish feel of the banjo/mandolin.
Come to think of it, that might be a key stylistic difference developed between the two musics... that in Irish music, the ornaments and various effects achieved by box, whistle, etc. are done so to mimic similar ornaments made on the pipes and fiddle, whereas in bluegrass, each instrument owns a whole different technique.
When I tried taking notes on individual flatpickers, I found there to be a lot between the lines, so to speak, and a wider array of techniques in any given run or passage which sometimes muddled up any clear indicators of where the rhythm was. If you look at Carter-style picking you're playing the melody through through chords, and in a lot of other tunes you're achieving the melody of the tune while using half-chords, slides and quick chromatic runs. When it comes to Doc Watson, I have always felt that when he has to, he puts a lot of 'swing' in his tunes, so I'm a little confused by what you mean in regard to his individual style, but I understand what you mean with the style of the genre as a whole. I guess it might depend on what he's playing. Some bluegrass standards are very strict and metered. On the other hand, some come from old timey, ragtime and vaudeville where they swing quite well so it would help to know which ones you're trying to learn.
has some DVDs of Celtic Guitarists you may get some tips from. You can contact Stefan too. Explain your problems to him in an email, he is one of the world's truly brilliant guitarists in many styles. He can play a pretty mean Irish tune himself, though is not generally know for that. He will likely know just what you need either in a DVD or just advice to get over the hump.
There is a little more delicacy to the slow rags that is easily adapted to Celtic fingerstyle. So it may be a great bridge.
Doyler, my advice is just play the tunes and let 'em swing. For my money, a lot of American tunes sound better with a little swing. My feeling, from listening to a lot of early recordings, is that they used to swing more, especially before the bluegrass era and the narrowly focused old-time revival.
Right Bob.... not only did the earlier American tunes swing, they were downright wild! The fiddling especially, packed with punch, drive, emotion. Not much in the way of ornaments, the focus was on the swing instead.
and whoops... I misread the original post, thinking you were going the other way around!! Listening to the Carter Family's early stuff may help, try doing the melody with the thumb like Maybelle Carter. Then let the other fingers brush the strings.
I first played ragtime, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, and now tend to switch back and forth equally between thumb and finger melody. I think in Irish/Celtic what is usual is the thumb drones while the fingers play a higher octave lighter sounding melody. Try mixing up the two, you'll get a less classical and delicate sound with a bit more drive in my humble opinion. A thumbpick is a great help too.
thanks folks.
Irisnevins, coincidentally i picked up a carter family cd in a bargain bin yesterday ! its sounds good , with some nice basic style guitar breaks ( I dont mean
'basic' in a bad way !)
Im new to what I'm ignorantly calling 'American' music but I had hoped there would be some fiddle in it.
I think what Im looking for could be called 'old time', and I had heard of Doc Watson from guitar mates years ago. I realise that blue grass is more towards the speedier ( and modern )end of things.
Would any of you kind people care to recommend any music?
It may help if I say that the fiddle player with Andy Irvines Mozaik blew me away when I saw them last year, Bruce Molsky i think his name was. The 'American' stuff he played got me into this. Seems to be mainly reels or at least all 4/4 stuff.
thanks to all.
Bruce is one of the biggies in American old-time music. One of the best revivalists. For a different viewpoint on old-time, look for James Bryan, especially with Carl Jones.
yes doyler, most of the American stuff is either reels or waltzes. not much in the 6/8 etc category. that's why we bluegrassers have such a hard time with jigs....they're fun though.
I have some friends in Ashe County, NC, not far from Deep Gap where Doc is from, and those guys do five or six different "jigs", although they're all in 4/4, and no one can remember where they came from.
As far as the tune Salt Creek goes, it's a pretty tight one so my advice with ones like that is to just hit the gas and don't look back. mmmm, maybe think of it as a fugue. Look for Earl Scruggs to give you a few pointers on how it shold sound "bluegrass" style, you'll get the idea pretty clearly.
thanks for the tips folks.
without wanting to start a tuning war , is it a mortal sin to play this style in DADGAD!?
the picking sounds fine but chordal accompaniment sounds less 'country' or less blue grass than standard chords to my ears.
Standard all the way. The whole style is based onstandard tuning and DADGAD will sound wrong. Try listening to Dan Crary, Norman Blake, Tony Rice, Russ Barrenburg and Clarence White. And for Rhythm, Del McCory is your man. Also, try playing with your pick closer to the bridge. Cuts through more and gives you a more authentic sound.
Sounds like you are more into old-time music from your mention of Bruce Molsky. There is actually very little guitar melody playing in that tradition, apart from Maybelle carter and Doc Watson. Some of the flatpicking on the stanly Brothers albums is very close. My best advice is to listen to later Norman Blake albums. He started as a flash gun picker (amazing stuff by the way, made me want to burn my guitar in the late 70s) then in later years he has refined his playing to simpler old time melodies. Also, American flatpickers tend to use a very hard pick, and heavy gauge strings, which also contribute to the sound. Happy Traum wrote an excelent book called Bluegrass guitar, which is a great introduction to the style. By the way, Salt Creek used to be called Salt River. Bill Monroe recorded it, changed the name and claimed copywrite on it.
guitar picking irish and american tunes
guitar picking irish and american tunes
hi folks , Ive been playing Irish tunes for a while on the guitar . For a change , I recently started listening to Doc Watson and picked out a few tunes and recorded myself. They sound like reels Irish style! Try as I might I cant make em sound 'American'! I know its the Irish reel swing Im trying to lose but I cant , even when I think Im playing straight at the time , its doesnt sound like that on play back!
Anyone ever have a similar problem on guitar , banjo or mando?
It also worries me if i lose the swing , will i get it back!?
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by doyler
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
isn't that funny, I'm a bluegrass picker learning Irish tunes, trying to lose the even timing and play more swingy. Wanna trade?
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by kbar
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
In bluegrass you're playing with the bass, so start there - don't lose that front beat. It might even help to play the first note somewhat truncated to stay ever so slightly ahead of the beat, sort of like how in a jig you hang onto the first note a fraction of a moment longer to give it a little bounce, only the other way around. Then listen to the runs done by the fiddle to give you a better idea of what the tune feels like.. listening to the fiddle is slightly easier than trying to 'decode' any particular guitarist to achieve the correct rhythmic feel. But unlike the treatment for Irish tunes, the bluegrass guitar technique is more chromatic with frequent slurs made by short slides, hammer-ons and pull-offs. Don't try to pick each individual note, or else you're maintaining that tight, popping Irish feel of the banjo/mandolin.
Come to think of it, that might be a key stylistic difference developed between the two musics... that in Irish music, the ornaments and various effects achieved by box, whistle, etc. are done so to mimic similar ornaments made on the pipes and fiddle, whereas in bluegrass, each instrument owns a whole different technique.
When I tried taking notes on individual flatpickers, I found there to be a lot between the lines, so to speak, and a wider array of techniques in any given run or passage which sometimes muddled up any clear indicators of where the rhythm was. If you look at Carter-style picking you're playing the melody through through chords, and in a lot of other tunes you're achieving the melody of the tune while using half-chords, slides and quick chromatic runs. When it comes to Doc Watson, I have always felt that when he has to, he puts a lot of 'swing' in his tunes, so I'm a little confused by what you mean in regard to his individual style, but I understand what you mean with the style of the genre as a whole. I guess it might depend on what he's playing. Some bluegrass standards are very strict and metered. On the other hand, some come from old timey, ragtime and vaudeville where they swing quite well so it would help to know which ones you're trying to learn.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
Try...as a middle ground learning some nice slow-ish ragtime tunes. The style is (I think.... it was for me) easily adapted to irish tunes.
Also...Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop:
http://guitarvideos.com/
has some DVDs of Celtic Guitarists you may get some tips from. You can contact Stefan too. Explain your problems to him in an email, he is one of the world's truly brilliant guitarists in many styles. He can play a pretty mean Irish tune himself, though is not generally know for that. He will likely know just what you need either in a DVD or just advice to get over the hump.
There is a little more delicacy to the slow rags that is easily adapted to Celtic fingerstyle. So it may be a great bridge.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
thanks folks.
I mentioned Doc Watson as he is the only one I have listened to so far! One of the tunes was named Salt Creek ( I think ).
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by doyler
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
Doyler, my advice is just play the tunes and let 'em swing. For my money, a lot of American tunes sound better with a little swing. My feeling, from listening to a lot of early recordings, is that they used to swing more, especially before the bluegrass era and the narrowly focused old-time revival.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
Right Bob.... not only did the earlier American tunes swing, they were downright wild! The fiddling especially, packed with punch, drive, emotion. Not much in the way of ornaments, the focus was on the swing instead.
and whoops... I misread the original post, thinking you were going the other way around!! Listening to the Carter Family's early stuff may help, try doing the melody with the thumb like Maybelle Carter. Then let the other fingers brush the strings.
I first played ragtime, back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, and now tend to switch back and forth equally between thumb and finger melody. I think in Irish/Celtic what is usual is the thumb drones while the fingers play a higher octave lighter sounding melody. Try mixing up the two, you'll get a less classical and delicate sound with a bit more drive in my humble opinion. A thumbpick is a great help too.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
thanks folks.
Irisnevins, coincidentally i picked up a carter family cd in a bargain bin yesterday ! its sounds good , with some nice basic style guitar breaks ( I dont mean
'basic' in a bad way !)
Im new to what I'm ignorantly calling 'American' music but I had hoped there would be some fiddle in it.
I think what Im looking for could be called 'old time', and I had heard of Doc Watson from guitar mates years ago. I realise that blue grass is more towards the speedier ( and modern )end of things.
Would any of you kind people care to recommend any music?
It may help if I say that the fiddle player with Andy Irvines Mozaik blew me away when I saw them last year, Bruce Molsky i think his name was. The 'American' stuff he played got me into this. Seems to be mainly reels or at least all 4/4 stuff.
thanks to all.
# Posted on December 13th 2006 by doyler
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
Bruce is one of the biggies in American old-time music. One of the best revivalists. For a different viewpoint on old-time, look for James Bryan, especially with Carl Jones.
# Posted on December 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
yes doyler, most of the American stuff is either reels or waltzes. not much in the 6/8 etc category. that's why we bluegrassers have such a hard time with jigs....they're fun though.
# Posted on December 14th 2006 by kbar
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
I have some friends in Ashe County, NC, not far from Deep Gap where Doc is from, and those guys do five or six different "jigs", although they're all in 4/4, and no one can remember where they came from.
As far as the tune Salt Creek goes, it's a pretty tight one so my advice with ones like that is to just hit the gas and don't look back. mmmm, maybe think of it as a fugue. Look for Earl Scruggs to give you a few pointers on how it shold sound "bluegrass" style, you'll get the idea pretty clearly.
# Posted on December 15th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
thanks for the tips folks.
without wanting to start a tuning war , is it a mortal sin to play this style in DADGAD!?
the picking sounds fine but chordal accompaniment sounds less 'country' or less blue grass than standard chords to my ears.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by doyler
Re: guitar picking irish and american tunes
Standard all the way. The whole style is based onstandard tuning and DADGAD will sound wrong. Try listening to Dan Crary, Norman Blake, Tony Rice, Russ Barrenburg and Clarence White. And for Rhythm, Del McCory is your man. Also, try playing with your pick closer to the bridge. Cuts through more and gives you a more authentic sound.
Sounds like you are more into old-time music from your mention of Bruce Molsky. There is actually very little guitar melody playing in that tradition, apart from Maybelle carter and Doc Watson. Some of the flatpicking on the stanly Brothers albums is very close. My best advice is to listen to later Norman Blake albums. He started as a flash gun picker (amazing stuff by the way, made me want to burn my guitar in the late 70s) then in later years he has refined his playing to simpler old time melodies. Also, American flatpickers tend to use a very hard pick, and heavy gauge strings, which also contribute to the sound. Happy Traum wrote an excelent book called Bluegrass guitar, which is a great introduction to the style. By the way, Salt Creek used to be called Salt River. Bill Monroe recorded it, changed the name and claimed copywrite on it.
# Posted on December 19th 2006 by woops