Hi all bouzouki and guitar players!
I'm learning to play the bouzouki and have some troubles finding chords. Since modal chords are used a lot, do any of you use them instead of minor chords? Can all modal chords always be used like that?
Personally I would say that modal chords are best used sparingly and never on the tonic chord. Minor chords are not hard, it just takes parctice. What tuning are you using? IMO, if you are using GDAD, there is less of a need to worry about chords, if you are using GDAE it is more important to learn chords. Why? Because GDAD lends it self better to counter melodies and drones and it is more common to use modal chords in this tuning because they are easily accsesable. GDAE doesn't lend itself to the droney coutner melody as well and is better played more like a Guitar player would. This is all my opinion and other people will have different ones. Choose whatever method suits you best and get really good at it by practicing a lot.
Any scale that has seven notes is a modal scale. There are seven modes (theoretically, though Irish music only uses four: Ionian or major; Aeolian, or natural minor; Dorian; and Mixolydian.)
What do you mean by a modal chord? Do you mean an open chord: one with fewer than three notes? Do you mean chords with added notes? I find I approach GDAD a bit like DADGAD in that sometimes I work the bottom strings and just allow top ones to ring, and frequently I don't play more than one or two at a time. I seldom think about chords but would rather match notes that harmonize with the melody. You can get some neat dissonances that way, and the joy of a dissonance is in the resolution. I play open chords on the tonic a lot--especially in tunes that are dorian or shift between modes. Sometimes I even like to drone on one note.
If you're accompanying a pentatonic tune then presumably you may find yourself using "modal" chords as defined by Unseen122, in other words chords that do not contain notes that are not in the pentatonic scale of the tune. For example, if the pentatonic scale is D-E-F#-A-B then you wouldn't be using anything with a G, C or C# in it.
Weird, I was giving information on one of our members who's published a book on the subject, Chris Smith, but it won't let me. Maybe there's a block on ISBN numbers or something. Anyway, if intersted, do a search for it ~ "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists"...
Weird! ~ That took the steam out of me, I'm going to bed... The publisher is Mel Bay and it comes with a CD... I had more to say but it kept being deleted?
Unseen, I'm using ADAD or GDAD (haven't decided yet which is the best). How would you suggest that I practice? Do you mean that I should use only two strings for a chord and sort of use counter melodies instead? I'm not sure what you mean and how to do.
Noxious, it is common ITM backer talk to call power chords modal chords as they do not describe the key as being major or minor and it coul be any mode that is related to that key.
zinacef, I find the best way to practice is to play along with very patient musicians, since that is a hard thing to come by, play along with recordings. It is also essential to know a bit of music theory. The way I like to do things is use one or two strings as drones and play a counter melodic thing on a second or third string. I like to alternate strings. For my approch I prefer GDAD as I like to use the DAD strings for the key of D and the GD for the key of G and AD for the key of A. For the minors I usually us the same tonic major like for Dmin I still use DAD. ADAD is great if you really want a powerful drone sound, bu tyou have to be careful as it can get loud depending on your Zouk.
Well, there's a lot of loose terminology about, and with all these DADGAD-tuned guitars about I can see the cause of it. Funny, I was playing in DAGDAD 30+ years ago and there was no fuss about it then.
Anyway, on my GDae-tuned 'zouk there's some obvious power-chords - A is a simple 2200, there's a great G which is 0553 - with octave-stringing you've got G's in three octaves all ringing away. If you're going up the neck 4422 is B, 5533 is C, etc...
If I'm playing in D I find the simple D chord, 2002, disappointing, not having a strong bass D, and often go up the neck and play 11oo10, which has a bottom note of D on the third string. I suppose you could play this as 7oo10 to reinforce the bottom and loose the third to make it a power chord. I also sometimes just use the two middle strings in D, let the A resonate and drone and alternate open and fourth frets for D, fifth fret for the G chord with the A as a dissonate drone, and second fret for the A chord. Who says you have to play all the strings, leave some holes in the music.
And remember there's nothing like playing the tune, don't listen to those wusses who say you can't play tunes on a 'zouk because the neck is too long.
I agree with Nox on this. Modal tunes call for different chords in different places, but a chord is a chord. And there are two kinds of open chords (open strings, or no thirds, depending on whether you are talking to a guitarist or a musician, ha ha). I agree with 'c' the Smith book is a great resource to understand this stuff.
I have heard people call chords 'modal' anytime a chord pops up in a tune that doesn't fit the I/IV/V scheme, or consist of a minor substitute for one of these three chords. "Be careful, there is a modal chord in the B part." But that is not really correct usage.
The only definition I've heard for modal chords that I find convincing is "chord that implies a mode". See the last couple of posts on this thread http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/219 for details. You can imagine how, for example, a minor 6th chord consisting of A-C-E-F# implies the dorian mode. And you can imagine how it'd be useful for jazz guitarists and pianists who have to deal with #9, b11, #13 etc and come up with chords that fit scales or scales that fit chords. I don't see how this is useful for trad though. The theory of chord substitutions and drones etc is much more useful to a trad backer than knowing that a mixolydian scale "fits" over a dominant 7th chord.
A chord has to have at least 3 notes in it (a triad). Doubling of notes in octaves doesn't count. The so-called "power chord" – horrid phrase- is not a chord it is an interval (perfect 5th). There is indeed no such thing as a "modal chord". It's also true that all chords are modal!!!
But there are no mystery or secret formulae to this music.
I am a backer and I barely ever play more than 2 chords (or naked intervals) for any tune. I've learnt what to do not by hearing/ listening to guitarists but concentrating on the basses and chords of the box players' left fingers and the general blur that comes from all the instruments that are nearly playing the tune or checking the roots with view to picking it up. Once you are in the right key you should be able to move the accompaniment to "the other chord" when you hear the cadences in the tune itself- just like everyone does when learning the actual tune/ melody. And of course a good old single note or drone (in octaves if you like!) is (nearly) always appropriate. Anyone considering 7/9/11/13 chords is nuts and using altered/ chromatic chords (dim, aug, flat 5/ flat 9/ flattened or raised anything et cetera) would be completely bonkers!! The occasional suspension can work in passing.
But leave the K blunt double flattened 17ths alone!!!
"Anyone considering 7/9/11/13 chords is nuts and using altered/ chromatic chords (dim, aug, flat 5/flat 9/ flattened or raised anything would be completely bonkers" Not entirely sure I agree with that. It is, however, an art to construct chordal sequences which use extended chords (ie with more than just a triad) and not one which can be done easily on the fly. Whilst a tune will rarely imply a full extened chord, they are used to create a flow in the chord sequence, as ways to link two chords or to enhance the melodic tension and release. I'm inclined to think that knowing your chord scales/modes and the inversions & subsitutions thereof is one of the most important skills for an accompanist to gain if they want to develop a "style" of their own and offer interesting ways to play tunes.
As regards the last two posts,Peerie Willie Johnson uses those chords.Whit Smith of the Hot Club Of Cowtown has developed a great jazzy style to accompany American trad.Wouldn't it be great if someone developed a similar Irish style.It would be a change from all the DADGAD drone clones.
Modal chords
Modal chords
Hi all bouzouki and guitar players!
I'm learning to play the bouzouki and have some troubles finding chords. Since modal chords are used a lot, do any of you use them instead of minor chords? Can all modal chords always be used like that?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by zinacef
Re: Modal chords
Personally I would say that modal chords are best used sparingly and never on the tonic chord. Minor chords are not hard, it just takes parctice. What tuning are you using? IMO, if you are using GDAD, there is less of a need to worry about chords, if you are using GDAE it is more important to learn chords. Why? Because GDAD lends it self better to counter melodies and drones and it is more common to use modal chords in this tuning because they are easily accsesable. GDAE doesn't lend itself to the droney coutner melody as well and is better played more like a Guitar player would. This is all my opinion and other people will have different ones. Choose whatever method suits you best and get really good at it by practicing a lot.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Modal chords
There's no such thing as "modal chords".
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
Actually I'll qualify that by saying there sort of is (!), but the theory of it isn't going to help you learn how to back trad.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
Any scale that has seven notes is a modal scale. There are seven modes (theoretically, though Irish music only uses four: Ionian or major; Aeolian, or natural minor; Dorian; and Mixolydian.)
What do you mean by a modal chord? Do you mean an open chord: one with fewer than three notes? Do you mean chords with added notes? I find I approach GDAD a bit like DADGAD in that sometimes I work the bottom strings and just allow top ones to ring, and frequently I don't play more than one or two at a time. I seldom think about chords but would rather match notes that harmonize with the melody. You can get some neat dissonances that way, and the joy of a dissonance is in the resolution. I play open chords on the tonic a lot--especially in tunes that are dorian or shift between modes. Sometimes I even like to drone on one note.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by dwdeacon
Re: Modal chords
dwdeacon, some players refer to chords without the third as "modal chords." An example of a modal chord would be DAd the 1st, the 5th, and the octave.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Modal chords
If you're accompanying a pentatonic tune then presumably you may find yourself using "modal" chords as defined by Unseen122, in other words chords that do not contain notes that are not in the pentatonic scale of the tune. For example, if the pentatonic scale is D-E-F#-A-B then you wouldn't be using anything with a G, C or C# in it.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modal chords
That's odd, I seem to be being blocked out??? (this is a test...)
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Modal chords
Weird, I was giving information on one of our members who's published a book on the subject, Chris Smith, but it won't let me. Maybe there's a block on ISBN numbers or something. Anyway, if intersted, do a search for it ~ "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists"...
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Modal chords
ISBN: 0-7866-4065-0
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Modal chords
Weird! ~ That took the steam out of me, I'm going to bed... The publisher is Mel Bay and it comes with a CD... I had more to say but it kept being deleted?
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Modal chords
C, I think you were being blocked out 'cos you were trying to post the same time as I was posting about pentatonic tunes. Heh, heh
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Modal chords
Chords consisting of a bare 5th with no 3rd are called "power chords", not "modal chords". Power chords have nothing to do with modes.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
I thought they were called "open chords" when the 3rd is missing.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modal chords
No, that's ambiguous, because in guitar chord speak, open chords are those that are not barred, i.e. chords that have open strings left ringing.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
Guitar-speak... gotcha.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modal chords
Yes, it has to be. The only term the classical theorists could come up with was "perfect 5th" or "bare 5th".
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
Unseen, I'm using ADAD or GDAD (haven't decided yet which is the best). How would you suggest that I practice? Do you mean that I should use only two strings for a chord and sort of use counter melodies instead? I'm not sure what you mean and how to do.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by zinacef
Re: Modal chords
To some extent, we're all modal citizens.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by drone
Re: Modal chords
Noxious, it is common ITM backer talk to call power chords modal chords as they do not describe the key as being major or minor and it coul be any mode that is related to that key.
zinacef, I find the best way to practice is to play along with very patient musicians, since that is a hard thing to come by, play along with recordings. It is also essential to know a bit of music theory. The way I like to do things is use one or two strings as drones and play a counter melodic thing on a second or third string. I like to alternate strings. For my approch I prefer GDAD as I like to use the DAD strings for the key of D and the GD for the key of G and AD for the key of A. For the minors I usually us the same tonic major like for Dmin I still use DAD. ADAD is great if you really want a powerful drone sound, bu tyou have to be careful as it can get loud depending on your Zouk.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Modal chords
I know it's common. But it's wrong because that's not what they are.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
It's also common for backers to call any chord that's remotely weird or jazzy (like sus, add9s etc) modal, and that's also wrong.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
Well, there's a lot of loose terminology about, and with all these DADGAD-tuned guitars about I can see the cause of it. Funny, I was playing in DAGDAD 30+ years ago and there was no fuss about it then.
Anyway, on my GDae-tuned 'zouk there's some obvious power-chords - A is a simple 2200, there's a great G which is 0553 - with octave-stringing you've got G's in three octaves all ringing away. If you're going up the neck 4422 is B, 5533 is C, etc...
If I'm playing in D I find the simple D chord, 2002, disappointing, not having a strong bass D, and often go up the neck and play 11oo10, which has a bottom note of D on the third string. I suppose you could play this as 7oo10 to reinforce the bottom and loose the third to make it a power chord. I also sometimes just use the two middle strings in D, let the A resonate and drone and alternate open and fourth frets for D, fifth fret for the G chord with the A as a dissonate drone, and second fret for the A chord. Who says you have to play all the strings, leave some holes in the music.
And remember there's nothing like playing the tune, don't listen to those wusses who say you can't play tunes on a 'zouk because the neck is too long.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Modal chords
PS. I agree absolutely with Unseen; choose whatever suits you best.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Modal chords
I agree with Nox on this. Modal tunes call for different chords in different places, but a chord is a chord. And there are two kinds of open chords (open strings, or no thirds, depending on whether you are talking to a guitarist or a musician, ha ha). I agree with 'c' the Smith book is a great resource to understand this stuff.
I have heard people call chords 'modal' anytime a chord pops up in a tune that doesn't fit the I/IV/V scheme, or consist of a minor substitute for one of these three chords. "Be careful, there is a modal chord in the B part." But that is not really correct usage.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Modal chords
The only definition I've heard for modal chords that I find convincing is "chord that implies a mode". See the last couple of posts on this thread http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/219 for details. You can imagine how, for example, a minor 6th chord consisting of A-C-E-F# implies the dorian mode. And you can imagine how it'd be useful for jazz guitarists and pianists who have to deal with #9, b11, #13 etc and come up with chords that fit scales or scales that fit chords. I don't see how this is useful for trad though. The theory of chord substitutions and drones etc is much more useful to a trad backer than knowing that a mixolydian scale "fits" over a dominant 7th chord.
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Modal chords
A chord has to have at least 3 notes in it (a triad). Doubling of notes in octaves doesn't count. The so-called "power chord" – horrid phrase- is not a chord it is an interval (perfect 5th). There is indeed no such thing as a "modal chord". It's also true that all chords are modal!!!
But there are no mystery or secret formulae to this music.
I am a backer and I barely ever play more than 2 chords (or naked intervals) for any tune. I've learnt what to do not by hearing/ listening to guitarists but concentrating on the basses and chords of the box players' left fingers and the general blur that comes from all the instruments that are nearly playing the tune or checking the roots with view to picking it up. Once you are in the right key you should be able to move the accompaniment to "the other chord" when you hear the cadences in the tune itself- just like everyone does when learning the actual tune/ melody. And of course a good old single note or drone (in octaves if you like!) is (nearly) always appropriate. Anyone considering 7/9/11/13 chords is nuts and using altered/ chromatic chords (dim, aug, flat 5/ flat 9/ flattened or raised anything et cetera) would be completely bonkers!! The occasional suspension can work in passing.
But leave the K blunt double flattened 17ths alone!!!
# Posted on December 11th 2006 by yhaalhouse
Re: Modal chords
"Anyone considering 7/9/11/13 chords is nuts and using altered/ chromatic chords (dim, aug, flat 5/flat 9/ flattened or raised anything would be completely bonkers" Not entirely sure I agree with that. It is, however, an art to construct chordal sequences which use extended chords (ie with more than just a triad) and not one which can be done easily on the fly. Whilst a tune will rarely imply a full extened chord, they are used to create a flow in the chord sequence, as ways to link two chords or to enhance the melodic tension and release. I'm inclined to think that knowing your chord scales/modes and the inversions & subsitutions thereof is one of the most important skills for an accompanist to gain if they want to develop a "style" of their own and offer interesting ways to play tunes.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Modal chords
As regards the last two posts,Peerie Willie Johnson uses those chords.Whit Smith of the Hot Club Of Cowtown has developed a great jazzy style to accompany American trad.Wouldn't it be great if someone developed a similar Irish style.It would be a change from all the DADGAD drone clones.
# Posted on December 12th 2006 by dafydd