I've been practicing a lot recently and have started to notice that my neck and shoulders ache a lot after a certain amount of time fiddling. The next morning my neck is really quite stiff. I think its something to do with my shoulder rest, but I cant quite figure out what.
It could be your shoulder rest, or it could be that you are tensing up as you play. I find that if I am learning a new tune and practice hard at it, my shoulders and neck tense up because I tend to lean forwards into the tune. The first thing I can suggest is that when you play, be aware of your posture and your tendency to tense up and try to keep your head up and shoulders back as much as possible while you play, I know it's a more classical style, but it's survived so many years for a reason!
If you are certain it is your shoulder rest, then try it in different positions. There was a thread on this a few weeks back. Your fiddle should rest and point just very slightly forward of your left shoulder, not out to the front. The position of your shoulder rest will affect this positioning, so I would experiment with moving it until you find the right spot and then try to remember where it is for next time.
Yes I do think I've got a problem with my posture, as I find myself slouching a lot whilst playing and tensing up too because I'm concentrating on my posture and the fact I'm tensing up!! I feel that the shoulder rest isnt doing its job, its doesnt seem to be sitting right. I've only just recently started to use it again as I bought a new fiddle which is marginally thicker in depth than my previous one, and I cant seem to find the right position for it.
Should it sit diagonally across the back of the fiddle or perpendicular?
A combination of shoulder rest and chin rest can force the neck into a fixed position with some players. Hence pain and stiffness in the shoulder/neck region - which is something no player should ever suffer from.
When practicing, take a five minute break every 20 or 30 minutes. Relax your arms and shoulders and do shoulder shrugs. Not only does it give you a physical rest but it rests the mind for a few minutes - just as important.
But why not experiment playing without a shoulder rest? It's a fairly recent innovation, after all, within the lifetime of some people on this forum. Just let the fiddle rest naturally on the collar bone (NOT on the shoulder), with just a little gentle pressure on the chinrest when you feel it necessary. Depending on what you wear, you may wish to have a light cloth between the fiddle and the collar bone.
Since Irish fiddle music is played in the 1st position 99.99% of the time, playing without a shoulder rest should be no problem at all. Just give yourself two or three days to get used to it. Playing without a shoulder rest is inherently physically more relaxing, and you should be able to move your head around easily while you are playing. Another thing, the fiddle will have one less bit of clutter to cause problems like falling off at the wrong moment.
My advice about a five minute break still applies, even if you don't use a shoulder rest!
I think where and how you position the shoulder rest depends on the size and shape of the chin rest to a certain extent and on your own preference. I'll try and explain how I have mine fitted so you can at least have some idea.
I have a KUN rest which is slightly curved to fit the shoulder better. First, hold the violin upright with the chinrest at the top and with the back of the fiddle facing you. The top foot of my shoulder rest is 2.5 inches (yes I'm old!!) to the right of the top button which attaches the tailpiece. On the left hand side, the top foot of the shoulder rest is 4.5 inches (and I'm not changing!!) from the top button (measured diagonally across the back of the violin as I couldn't bend the ruler round the edge!). So the whole shoulder rest is on the diagonal, highest point on the right and lowest point on the left.
Much will depend on the style of you shoulder rest, your chin rest and your violin, but all the violinists I have met have used the same set up.
Trevor is right about shrugging etc. It really helps! You might also try taking a break every few tunes and gently, slowly rolling your shoulders up and back, then down and forward again. Imagine the point of your shoulder tracing a circle in the air, and you've got the basic idea. I have problems due to nerve damage in my neck, and shrugs and rolls have made a huge difference in how long I can play without discomfort or tension.
It's worth trying a few gentle stretches before you begin playing, too; reminding your shoulders and neck that they can be loose and relaxed can help stave off the onset of tension.
It could be that a different shoulder rest might be more comfortable for you. I went to a violin shop and a very nice woman there let me try about a dozen different ones until I found one that felt right. Some were too long on the treble side and poked me in the chest, and an inflatable one moved around too much, which I didn't like because the whole reason I wanted one was to stabilize the violin as I played. Then she let me take it home to try it for a few days, because she said that sometimes you think it's right in the store but it's not so great after you're playing with it for a few hours. Good luck!
The one cardinal rule of fiddle-playing position (as far as I'm concerned) is
"Be as natural and relaxed as possible".
For some people this means playing without a shoulder rest (though I suspect Kato Havas, who pointed at "fear of dropping the instrument" as a primary factor in stage-fright, would disagree). But for others, it might mean going in exactly the opposite direction, and getting something like a Bon-Musica shoulder rest: http://perfectfifths.com/archives/2005/11/30/bon-musica-shoulder-rest-review, which will wrap over your shoulder, and hold your fiddle for you even if you don't have a jaw.
But the problem with using new equipment (or removing equipment) to fix muscle tension, is that the tension often simply goes elsewhere. If you buy a bon musica, you may find that you trade tension in your neck for tension in your shoulder. While I generally disagree with the assertion that playing without a shoulder rest is easier and more relaxing, I do believe that learning to be flexible with your position will lead to more natural playing.
Here's my short recipe for fixing tension in fiddle playing: 1) Play until you notice something that's too tight.
2) Consciously relax that part of your body that's tight, and keep playing
3) repeat
Step 2 is oversimplified, but here's a checklist of things that (IMHO) are common errors:
1) the head should not need to be leaning to one side or the other, nor should it need to pinch the instrument. The weight of the head alone should be enough to support the fiddle, and you should be able to do that by simply nodding forward.
2) The shoulders should be relaxed as well. There should be no need to lift your shoulder up to hold the instrument--or your bowing shoulder either. This is where ditching the shoulder rest helps most. If you ditch the shoulder rest, you're holding the fiddle against the collarbone, which isn't affected by a lifted shoulder.
3) The left elbow should be directly underneath the instrument. This saves unnecessary tension in your rotator, and lets you hold the fiddle with minimal work from your bicep.
4) The right hand should not be locked up at all. All the fingers should be rounded and flexible. I generally encourage a bowhold like this: http://sarah.macmanx.com/gallery/index.php?id=5
Anyway. That was all WAAY to much text. Sorry for dragging on.
Trev and I have begged to differ on shoulder rests often, and that's fine. I played for years without one, then had an epiphany of a learning curve after I started to use one, so horses for courses. However, whether you use a shoulder rest or not, any repetitive strain problems come from repetition. Take breaks, obviosly, but also move the fiddle and you head around a bit while you play.
I've been playing about a year and notice numbness develops in my left hand after playing for about 10 or 15 minutes. I lower my arm for a few moments and it goes away. Anyone else have this problem? Am I compressing a nerve or is it my circulation?
Anyway, I read somewhere that most fiddlers start without a shoulder rest, then acquire one, then give it up again, and that has been my own experience.
I've just acquired a very lightly built 7/8 fiddle, with shallow sides and a low chinrest, it's lovely and comfortable to play.
My answer to all problems like yours jenben is to strengthen the affected part. This is what I do with my neck, what you do with yours is your own affair: I put my right hand over my head and touch my left ear, then pull my head against the force of my hand. The left hand right ear. You have to work your way up gently to this sort of thing, don't rush at it, but build it up over the days until you are doing it frequently and with more force.
The affliction is known as repetitive strain injury, but I’ve been seeing in recent articles that the worst injury is now believed to come from static loading, i.e., maintaining a joint in a fixed, tense (loaded) position for long periods. This is consistent with my own experience.
When I notice tension or pain in my neck or shoulders, I put down the fiddle, bend over from the waist and hang there for a while. It relieves the stress and I can continue playing. I got the idea from Yehudi Menuhin’s book, Violin. He spends a good bit of the book on the yoga of violin playing.
I occasionally try playing without a shoulder rest, out of respect for the learned sage, lazyhound, but it's not working for me yet.
Mandomac, that could just be too much tension in your left hand and arm. Don't clench the instrument's neck--cup it like a small, live bird.
Or it could be thoracic outlet compression syndrome (TOCS). Yikes! It's a genetic condition where your own anatomy pinches the nerves and/or blood vessels up around your collar bones. I know about this only because I'm afflicted with it. Good fun. In certain postures, my hands go totally numb and dead in a matter of seconds. Had to give up playing guitar due to this. The easiest test is called Addson's maneuver. Get a friend to take your pulse down at your left wrist. Then raise your left hand like you're swearing an oath or waving goodbye. Cock your shoulder back, and turn your head to the *right* as far as it will go. If your friend cannot find a pulse again at your wrist with your arm in this position, you probably have TOCS.
Either way, stretching out the shoulder and pectoralis muscles can help improve circulation in your arms.
LOVE the idea of a glass of fizz to relax those muscles!
But, seriously, I , too, have not been playing very long, (about 3 years) and started to use a shoulder rest last year; trouble is got one from Ebay second hand ( a Willy Wolf one) so it didn't come with any instructions on how to fit it (do they ever?) so I have been fiddling about (pardon the pun) with it ever since I have got it, so any pointers into correct positioning are most appreciated; all the above advice re not leaning your head on one side( I find I do that when concentrating on a particular challenging reel, for example) and also I would like to add, that from my own experience, teeth clenching is also a culprit, especially when tackling new tunes or tricky bits; I think the shoulder shrugs and neck rolls sound a great idea, with time out whilst practising too.
Hmmm Bowburner is spot on about it, but perhaps assumes too much on the players actual posture.
I note with some regret, I had really bad posture for years and suffered most of the afflictions I read about above!, that ignorance still thrives on foolish assumptions.
First off looking at proficient Violinists/Fiddlers on Youtube would be a great help to those here suffering from posture problems.
If your left hand feels crampted or uncomfortable when holding the neck of the Violin, THEN you are NOT in a correct posture. Does that mean the Bowarm must compensate. Yes it does!
So ram - no! gently ease the edge of the fiddle box against your neck on the left slightly, the button would be against your adams apple if you swing the fiddle about to a shallow angle to straight out infront. Leaning slightly your head forward, the chin should fall neatly into the chinrest ----- Like it is supposed to do...duh and why ever would Luthers be putting the dang thing there ? Duh duh duh.
If you need to support the Violin belly with something, first try a tennis ball in a left breat pocket = if a man = a woman does not need anything.
You shold be able - a la Viol - to entrap the body of the Violin soley with your chin, thus freeing the left hand to move about or OFF the neck as necessary.
Good to here with the left arm raise the scroll till you think the strings level with the floor but certainly no drooping downwards - ie it is better to have a high scroll than a low one.
The Bow passes at an angle of about 30 degrees off straight accross in front of you, and it will go nearly and sometimes all the way OVER your left shoulder.
Yes at frist it is extreemly difficult to bow in this way, but after some months with it you'll be able to do far better and learn new tricks FAR FAR FAR quicker than the wrong way!
I would put some links here to Youtube but I am certain you can do your own searches for
Irish
Charlie Lennon
Romanian
Loe Ullmann
Classical
any one would do
NOTE I have played folks and Classical Violin off and on for over 30 years
And Leo ( sorry about my spelling )
Ps do not close the browser when you see a little boy taling ! this is Leo and he will knock you on your a55 - he is that good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jPtQ23oH3g
Not a fiddler.... but agree on repetitive strain. I hear about many musicians' ailments. Guitar players get a sort of "guitar shoulder" on their strumming arm, box players get arm pain. Flutes get a different arm pain.
We all need to be careful. I found yoga stretches, esp. after playing to help greatly. stretch the opposite way of the pain, hold it about a minute. Stretch your head/neck the other way during breaks. You may look like you have Tourette's, but who cares, it feels good!
When I get home from playing (who wants to exercise then, LOL!) I go into the contortions for 5-10 minutes before going to bed, and now wake up almost pain free, even after many hours of playing. Sitting with a guitar for hours also gave me sciatic pain. I tried classical position, which helps the strain, but find it hard to play that way, so revert without thinking to my bad body, but good for playing position, leaning on the wrong leg. The "down Dog" and other leg and full body stretches have just about eliminated all sciatic pain, which could last for days and was very painful.
You'd need to get a good yoga book with pictures, and look at the appropriate ones for you.... they will have neck rolls, head rolls. Maybe it recreates a balance in the use of muscles on the both sides or something, whatever, it works for many people.
And the rest on the fiddle of course should help. many use it. All the suggestions from everyone should add up to helping eliminate or lessen pain.
Just my 2 cents........
I personally know 2 ladies who play the fiddle beautifullly without using a shoulder rest.
I personally like having at least a small towel between me and my fiddle, so that my collar bone doesn't hurt after a while...
Thank you all for all the very usefull suggestions, unfortuneatley I started at the top of the thread and got stuck with Bowburners suggestion of a glass of bubbly, not having any to hand, I used a slightly warm bottle of rioja instead, and I must say I'm feeling a lot more relaxed now!!
Seriously though I have also noticed that the knuckle of my thumb seems to be pressing on the neck of the fiddle causing my thumb to be numb, I'm starting to think from reading all your comments that it might all be linked. So something happened a couple of weeks ago that affected the way I hold the fiddle....hmm the plot thickens..........now back to that bottle of wine
That's a good point lazyhound. One of my violins recently went in for a service and had the chinrest replaced. The previous chinrest was very small and the new one seems very large. It took quite a while to get used to it and I had to play around with the shoulder rest in different positions for a while before I got it to feel comfortable. I was fortunate in that my shoulder rest is not only shaped to fit the shoulder but it can also tilt across the length to vary the support. As I said earlier it's a Kun rest and I've always got on very well with it. I've just realised I must have had it for twenty years or more (ouch!!!!!) so I don't know if they still make them, but if you can get hold of one for a try then it could be worth it.
Neck, shoulder, and hand/wrist stiffness and potential injuries are big issues for this fiddler/court reporter. One thing that has helped me greatly sounds pretty indirect, but really, it made a huge difference when I shelled out the bucks for one of Brookstone delux pillows that has extra support for the neck.
I just got a different kind of support for reading and watching TV in bed. So far, so good, but I've only had it a couple of days.
So it may not be the fiddle really, but something else that you need to change. I would add that you've gotten a lot of other great suggestions here, though; there's nothing I can recall in here that's not worth a serious look.
There are two types of bodywork that address posture and might be helpful for you: Hellerwork and Tragerwork. I'm sure you could find local practitioners by Googling these terms.
Well if, as you say, your left hand is gripping the neck too hard and the Thumb is hurting, here is what will fix that.
When you are holding the neck of the fiddle with your left hand,
1
stick your thumb out and away from the neck
2
bend over the top of the thumb so it points towards your righhand side and slip the THUMB NAIL under the neck.
3
carefully and slowly prress the strings down with your left hand fingers to see how that now feels.
4
When Bowing in this new posture, do not press the bowstick down on to the strings at all, even if you sound like a whispering ghost!
For good left-hand work on the fiddle it's essential to have a relaxed thumb. When you're playing you should be able to move the thumb around. I believe the reason so many (ITM) fiddlers have a problem with stiffness and tension in the left thumb is due in part to playing always in the first position, and perhaps inadequate formal training in the early stages of learning. That last sentence, I think, points in the direction of the answers to the problem.
Here's an exercise to loosen up and develop the left thumb and hand.
Hold the fiddle with the thumb in its usual position up by the nut and place all the fingers down on the E-string.
Slide the thumb up the neck towards the body of the instrument while keeping the fingers down on the E-string.
Your eventual aim should be to get the thumb up the neck to where the neck joins the body of the instrument. In the early stages you may not be able to move the thumb quite that far, but slide it up the neck anyway as far as you can without straining.
Then slide all the fingers in a group up the E-string so that the first and second fingers are more or less level with the thumb.
Hold that position for a few seconds then slide the fingers back down to the first position and then let the thumb follow back down to the first position.
Rest and repeat.
What I've described is a method the baroque violinists used to move the hand up and down the fingerboard in the days long before shoulder rests and chinrests were invented, if they didn't want to grip the violin unduly with the chin. In effect, the thumb and fingers were "walking" the hand along the fingerboard. Either the thumb or the fingers would move, but never both together.
Cellists never have these problems
I have never been one for shoulder rests although i have used them on and off over the years, personally to me they feel alien, out of place and just not right. I dont have any problems with positioning and posture although I occasionally get numbness if I havent slept properly the night before and guaranteed I am usually not quite sober, at a festival and put my neck out from sleeping on the ground while tenting (not passed out drunk) For some reason my shoulder and collar bone make a correct natural shoulder rest and I suffer no pain or discomfort. I do however stretch a lot, its habitual from sitting still.
I think relaxing and using proper posture are the two keys to this problem. Though a glass of bubbly sounds good too.
What's interesting is that no one has mentioned one's neck length when saying where they stand on the shoulder-rest question. I imagine that folks with long necks might have more need of a shoulder rest than people with short necks, like Itzhak Perlman for example. I use a shoulder rest and it seems to work well with my long neck.
For what it's worth, pain could be a warning that prevents worse problems from developing. Since the head and neck are connected to the rest of the spine, developing good posture now could prevent spinal misalignments later on.
I also notice that the more I relax the better my playing sounds.
Neck ache from fiddling too much
Neck ache from fiddling too much
I've been practicing a lot recently and have started to notice that my neck and shoulders ache a lot after a certain amount of time fiddling. The next morning my neck is really quite stiff. I think its something to do with my shoulder rest, but I cant quite figure out what.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Beep
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
It could be your shoulder rest, or it could be that you are tensing up as you play. I find that if I am learning a new tune and practice hard at it, my shoulders and neck tense up because I tend to lean forwards into the tune. The first thing I can suggest is that when you play, be aware of your posture and your tendency to tense up and try to keep your head up and shoulders back as much as possible while you play, I know it's a more classical style, but it's survived so many years for a reason!
If you are certain it is your shoulder rest, then try it in different positions. There was a thread on this a few weeks back. Your fiddle should rest and point just very slightly forward of your left shoulder, not out to the front. The position of your shoulder rest will affect this positioning, so I would experiment with moving it until you find the right spot and then try to remember where it is for next time.
Hope that helps
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Yes I do think I've got a problem with my posture, as I find myself slouching a lot whilst playing and tensing up too because I'm concentrating on my posture and the fact I'm tensing up!! I feel that the shoulder rest isnt doing its job, its doesnt seem to be sitting right. I've only just recently started to use it again as I bought a new fiddle which is marginally thicker in depth than my previous one, and I cant seem to find the right position for it.
Should it sit diagonally across the back of the fiddle or perpendicular?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Beep
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
A combination of shoulder rest and chin rest can force the neck into a fixed position with some players. Hence pain and stiffness in the shoulder/neck region - which is something no player should ever suffer from.
When practicing, take a five minute break every 20 or 30 minutes. Relax your arms and shoulders and do shoulder shrugs. Not only does it give you a physical rest but it rests the mind for a few minutes - just as important.
But why not experiment playing without a shoulder rest? It's a fairly recent innovation, after all, within the lifetime of some people on this forum. Just let the fiddle rest naturally on the collar bone (NOT on the shoulder), with just a little gentle pressure on the chinrest when you feel it necessary. Depending on what you wear, you may wish to have a light cloth between the fiddle and the collar bone.
Since Irish fiddle music is played in the 1st position 99.99% of the time, playing without a shoulder rest should be no problem at all. Just give yourself two or three days to get used to it. Playing without a shoulder rest is inherently physically more relaxing, and you should be able to move your head around easily while you are playing. Another thing, the fiddle will have one less bit of clutter to cause problems like falling off at the wrong moment.
My advice about a five minute break still applies, even if you don't use a shoulder rest!
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
okay, now people are looking at me funny in the office as I'm shrugging my shoulders
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Beep
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
I bet you're tensing up.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by timmy!
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
I think where and how you position the shoulder rest depends on the size and shape of the chin rest to a certain extent and on your own preference. I'll try and explain how I have mine fitted so you can at least have some idea.
I have a KUN rest which is slightly curved to fit the shoulder better. First, hold the violin upright with the chinrest at the top and with the back of the fiddle facing you. The top foot of my shoulder rest is 2.5 inches (yes I'm old!!) to the right of the top button which attaches the tailpiece. On the left hand side, the top foot of the shoulder rest is 4.5 inches (and I'm not changing!!) from the top button (measured diagonally across the back of the violin as I couldn't bend the ruler round the edge!). So the whole shoulder rest is on the diagonal, highest point on the right and lowest point on the left.
Much will depend on the style of you shoulder rest, your chin rest and your violin, but all the violinists I have met have used the same set up.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Trevor is right about shrugging etc. It really helps! You might also try taking a break every few tunes and gently, slowly rolling your shoulders up and back, then down and forward again. Imagine the point of your shoulder tracing a circle in the air, and you've got the basic idea. I have problems due to nerve damage in my neck, and shrugs and rolls have made a huge difference in how long I can play without discomfort or tension.
It's worth trying a few gentle stretches before you begin playing, too; reminding your shoulders and neck that they can be loose and relaxed can help stave off the onset of tension.
Good luck!
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by sara g
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
It could be that a different shoulder rest might be more comfortable for you. I went to a violin shop and a very nice woman there let me try about a dozen different ones until I found one that felt right. Some were too long on the treble side and poked me in the chest, and an inflatable one moved around too much, which I didn't like because the whole reason I wanted one was to stabilize the violin as I played. Then she let me take it home to try it for a few days, because she said that sometimes you think it's right in the store but it's not so great after you're playing with it for a few hours. Good luck!
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
If all else fails there's nothing like a glass of chilled champagne before you play for relaxing the muscles
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
The one cardinal rule of fiddle-playing position (as far as I'm concerned) is
"Be as natural and relaxed as possible".
For some people this means playing without a shoulder rest (though I suspect Kato Havas, who pointed at "fear of dropping the instrument" as a primary factor in stage-fright, would disagree). But for others, it might mean going in exactly the opposite direction, and getting something like a Bon-Musica shoulder rest: http://perfectfifths.com/archives/2005/11/30/bon-musica-shoulder-rest-review, which will wrap over your shoulder, and hold your fiddle for you even if you don't have a jaw.
But the problem with using new equipment (or removing equipment) to fix muscle tension, is that the tension often simply goes elsewhere. If you buy a bon musica, you may find that you trade tension in your neck for tension in your shoulder. While I generally disagree with the assertion that playing without a shoulder rest is easier and more relaxing, I do believe that learning to be flexible with your position will lead to more natural playing.
Here's my short recipe for fixing tension in fiddle playing: 1) Play until you notice something that's too tight.
2) Consciously relax that part of your body that's tight, and keep playing
3) repeat
Step 2 is oversimplified, but here's a checklist of things that (IMHO) are common errors:
1) the head should not need to be leaning to one side or the other, nor should it need to pinch the instrument. The weight of the head alone should be enough to support the fiddle, and you should be able to do that by simply nodding forward.
2) The shoulders should be relaxed as well. There should be no need to lift your shoulder up to hold the instrument--or your bowing shoulder either. This is where ditching the shoulder rest helps most. If you ditch the shoulder rest, you're holding the fiddle against the collarbone, which isn't affected by a lifted shoulder.
3) The left elbow should be directly underneath the instrument. This saves unnecessary tension in your rotator, and lets you hold the fiddle with minimal work from your bicep.
4) The right hand should not be locked up at all. All the fingers should be rounded and flexible. I generally encourage a bowhold like this: http://sarah.macmanx.com/gallery/index.php?id=5
Anyway. That was all WAAY to much text. Sorry for dragging on.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
I've never seen a fiddle player without a jaw, Georgi. I guess they wouldn't need a chinrest either, eh?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Trev and I have begged to differ on shoulder rests often, and that's fine. I played for years without one, then had an epiphany of a learning curve after I started to use one, so horses for courses. However, whether you use a shoulder rest or not, any repetitive strain problems come from repetition. Take breaks, obviosly, but also move the fiddle and you head around a bit while you play.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by ...
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Mr. Gill, I am a shoulder rest user too. I played without one for my first year and then when I finally tried one it was wonderful.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by timmy!
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
I've been playing about a year and notice numbness develops in my left hand after playing for about 10 or 15 minutes. I lower my arm for a few moments and it goes away. Anyone else have this problem? Am I compressing a nerve or is it my circulation?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by mandomac2
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Agreed to differ Michael?
Anyway, I read somewhere that most fiddlers start without a shoulder rest, then acquire one, then give it up again, and that has been my own experience.
I've just acquired a very lightly built 7/8 fiddle, with shallow sides and a low chinrest, it's lovely and comfortable to play.
My answer to all problems like yours jenben is to strengthen the affected part. This is what I do with my neck, what you do with yours is your own affair: I put my right hand over my head and touch my left ear, then pull my head against the force of my hand. The left hand right ear. You have to work your way up gently to this sort of thing, don't rush at it, but build it up over the days until you are doing it frequently and with more force.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Bernie 29
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
The affliction is known as repetitive strain injury, but I’ve been seeing in recent articles that the worst injury is now believed to come from static loading, i.e., maintaining a joint in a fixed, tense (loaded) position for long periods. This is consistent with my own experience.
When I notice tension or pain in my neck or shoulders, I put down the fiddle, bend over from the waist and hang there for a while. It relieves the stress and I can continue playing. I got the idea from Yehudi Menuhin’s book, Violin. He spends a good bit of the book on the yoga of violin playing.
I occasionally try playing without a shoulder rest, out of respect for the learned sage, lazyhound, but it's not working for me yet.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
mandomac2 - it's probably tension in your neck and shoulders, whch can refer down into your hand.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Mandomac, that could just be too much tension in your left hand and arm. Don't clench the instrument's neck--cup it like a small, live bird.
Or it could be thoracic outlet compression syndrome (TOCS). Yikes! It's a genetic condition where your own anatomy pinches the nerves and/or blood vessels up around your collar bones. I know about this only because I'm afflicted with it. Good fun. In certain postures, my hands go totally numb and dead in a matter of seconds. Had to give up playing guitar due to this. The easiest test is called Addson's maneuver. Get a friend to take your pulse down at your left wrist. Then raise your left hand like you're swearing an oath or waving goodbye. Cock your shoulder back, and turn your head to the *right* as far as it will go. If your friend cannot find a pulse again at your wrist with your arm in this position, you probably have TOCS.
Either way, stretching out the shoulder and pectoralis muscles can help improve circulation in your arms.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
hello
LOVE the idea of a glass of fizz to relax those muscles!
But, seriously, I , too, have not been playing very long, (about 3 years) and started to use a shoulder rest last year; trouble is got one from Ebay second hand ( a Willy Wolf one) so it didn't come with any instructions on how to fit it (do they ever?) so I have been fiddling about (pardon the pun) with it ever since I have got it, so any pointers into correct positioning are most appreciated; all the above advice re not leaning your head on one side( I find I do that when concentrating on a particular challenging reel, for example) and also I would like to add, that from my own experience, teeth clenching is also a culprit, especially when tackling new tunes or tricky bits; I think the shoulder shrugs and neck rolls sound a great idea, with time out whilst practising too.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by madame bonaparte
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Hmmm Bowburner is spot on about it, but perhaps assumes too much on the players actual posture.
I note with some regret, I had really bad posture for years and suffered most of the afflictions I read about above!, that ignorance still thrives on foolish assumptions.
First off looking at proficient Violinists/Fiddlers on Youtube would be a great help to those here suffering from posture problems.
If your left hand feels crampted or uncomfortable when holding the neck of the Violin, THEN you are NOT in a correct posture. Does that mean the Bowarm must compensate. Yes it does!
So ram - no! gently ease the edge of the fiddle box against your neck on the left slightly, the button would be against your adams apple if you swing the fiddle about to a shallow angle to straight out infront. Leaning slightly your head forward, the chin should fall neatly into the chinrest ----- Like it is supposed to do...duh and why ever would Luthers be putting the dang thing there ? Duh duh duh.
If you need to support the Violin belly with something, first try a tennis ball in a left breat pocket = if a man = a woman does not need anything.
You shold be able - a la Viol - to entrap the body of the Violin soley with your chin, thus freeing the left hand to move about or OFF the neck as necessary.
Good to here with the left arm raise the scroll till you think the strings level with the floor but certainly no drooping downwards - ie it is better to have a high scroll than a low one.
The Bow passes at an angle of about 30 degrees off straight accross in front of you, and it will go nearly and sometimes all the way OVER your left shoulder.
Yes at frist it is extreemly difficult to bow in this way, but after some months with it you'll be able to do far better and learn new tricks FAR FAR FAR quicker than the wrong way!
I would put some links here to Youtube but I am certain you can do your own searches for
Irish
Charlie Lennon
Romanian
Loe Ullmann
Classical
any one would do
NOTE I have played folks and Classical Violin off and on for over 30 years
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Ok here is Charile L
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4wt2JQqpc8
And Leo ( sorry about my spelling )
Ps do not close the browser when you see a little boy taling ! this is Leo and he will knock you on your a55 - he is that good!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jPtQ23oH3g
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Great videos, thanks for the links.
(Sigh...I want to be 10 and that talented.)
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Not a fiddler.... but agree on repetitive strain. I hear about many musicians' ailments. Guitar players get a sort of "guitar shoulder" on their strumming arm, box players get arm pain. Flutes get a different arm pain.
We all need to be careful. I found yoga stretches, esp. after playing to help greatly. stretch the opposite way of the pain, hold it about a minute. Stretch your head/neck the other way during breaks. You may look like you have Tourette's, but who cares, it feels good!
When I get home from playing (who wants to exercise then, LOL!) I go into the contortions for 5-10 minutes before going to bed, and now wake up almost pain free, even after many hours of playing. Sitting with a guitar for hours also gave me sciatic pain. I tried classical position, which helps the strain, but find it hard to play that way, so revert without thinking to my bad body, but good for playing position, leaning on the wrong leg. The "down Dog" and other leg and full body stretches have just about eliminated all sciatic pain, which could last for days and was very painful.
You'd need to get a good yoga book with pictures, and look at the appropriate ones for you.... they will have neck rolls, head rolls. Maybe it recreates a balance in the use of muscles on the both sides or something, whatever, it works for many people.
And the rest on the fiddle of course should help. many use it. All the suggestions from everyone should add up to helping eliminate or lessen pain.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Some more great fiddling clips
Irish, Paddy wearing a sash! Donal Donelly et al. Really bad exagerated
lefty posture! Easy on the left hand as well, but ear over fiddle, no
chin control therefore no positioning control. It probably does not
matter as Irish fiddling nearly never changes from the 1st position,
Still compare Sean Kean's posture -- entirely different! where the player
does shift position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_m3TEXEK-I
Romanian fo9lk by Sweedish player with bad posture, drooping, but great
fiddling. But notice the good positioning of the fiddle with the chinrest
about in the correct place - thus proving correct positioning of the
bowhair on the strings. Takes a little figuring out but should be obvious
if you actualy try it.
BTW Watch out for some superb Eurpean bands playing Romanian folk music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG-bEedJ5zg
Taraf ( Romanian for Band or Group ) Haiduks ( means robbers/thieves as
in Robin Hood OC ) Notice the great posture of some of the players. Nice
bow attack and high scroll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlmpbL23Olk
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Just my 2 cents........
I personally know 2 ladies who play the fiddle beautifullly without using a shoulder rest.
I personally like having at least a small towel between me and my fiddle, so that my collar bone doesn't hurt after a while...
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by morning star
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Ooops....... I just shouldn't post whilst I have a bad headache, personally that is.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by morning star
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Thank you all for all the very usefull suggestions, unfortuneatley I started at the top of the thread and got stuck with Bowburners suggestion of a glass of bubbly, not having any to hand, I used a slightly warm bottle of rioja instead, and I must say I'm feeling a lot more relaxed now!!
Seriously though I have also noticed that the knuckle of my thumb seems to be pressing on the neck of the fiddle causing my thumb to be numb, I'm starting to think from reading all your comments that it might all be linked. So something happened a couple of weeks ago that affected the way I hold the fiddle....hmm the plot thickens..........now back to that bottle of wine
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Beep
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Glad to be of assistance
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Another thought, just check that your chinrest isn't part of the problem. It's another possible factor in the equation.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
That's a good point lazyhound. One of my violins recently went in for a service and had the chinrest replaced. The previous chinrest was very small and the new one seems very large. It took quite a while to get used to it and I had to play around with the shoulder rest in different positions for a while before I got it to feel comfortable. I was fortunate in that my shoulder rest is not only shaped to fit the shoulder but it can also tilt across the length to vary the support. As I said earlier it's a Kun rest and I've always got on very well with it. I've just realised I must have had it for twenty years or more (ouch!!!!!) so I don't know if they still make them, but if you can get hold of one for a try then it could be worth it.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bowburner
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Neck, shoulder, and hand/wrist stiffness and potential injuries are big issues for this fiddler/court reporter. One thing that has helped me greatly sounds pretty indirect, but really, it made a huge difference when I shelled out the bucks for one of Brookstone delux pillows that has extra support for the neck.
I just got a different kind of support for reading and watching TV in bed. So far, so good, but I've only had it a couple of days.
So it may not be the fiddle really, but something else that you need to change. I would add that you've gotten a lot of other great suggestions here, though; there's nothing I can recall in here that's not worth a serious look.
There are two types of bodywork that address posture and might be helpful for you: Hellerwork and Tragerwork. I'm sure you could find local practitioners by Googling these terms.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Well if, as you say, your left hand is gripping the neck too hard and the Thumb is hurting, here is what will fix that.
When you are holding the neck of the fiddle with your left hand,
1
stick your thumb out and away from the neck
2
bend over the top of the thumb so it points towards your righhand side and slip the THUMB NAIL under the neck.
3
carefully and slowly prress the strings down with your left hand fingers to see how that now feels.
4
When Bowing in this new posture, do not press the bowstick down on to the strings at all, even if you sound like a whispering ghost!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
For good left-hand work on the fiddle it's essential to have a relaxed thumb. When you're playing you should be able to move the thumb around. I believe the reason so many (ITM) fiddlers have a problem with stiffness and tension in the left thumb is due in part to playing always in the first position, and perhaps inadequate formal training in the early stages of learning. That last sentence, I think, points in the direction of the answers to the problem.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Here's an exercise to loosen up and develop the left thumb and hand.
Hold the fiddle with the thumb in its usual position up by the nut and place all the fingers down on the E-string.
Slide the thumb up the neck towards the body of the instrument while keeping the fingers down on the E-string.
Your eventual aim should be to get the thumb up the neck to where the neck joins the body of the instrument. In the early stages you may not be able to move the thumb quite that far, but slide it up the neck anyway as far as you can without straining.
Then slide all the fingers in a group up the E-string so that the first and second fingers are more or less level with the thumb.
Hold that position for a few seconds then slide the fingers back down to the first position and then let the thumb follow back down to the first position.
Rest and repeat.
What I've described is a method the baroque violinists used to move the hand up and down the fingerboard in the days long before shoulder rests and chinrests were invented, if they didn't want to grip the violin unduly with the chin. In effect, the thumb and fingers were "walking" the hand along the fingerboard. Either the thumb or the fingers would move, but never both together.
Cellists never have these problems
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
Trevor, that's a brilliant exercise! Best one I've heard of for loosening the "death grip." Thanks for posting it.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Neck ache from fiddling too much
I have never been one for shoulder rests although i have used them on and off over the years, personally to me they feel alien, out of place and just not right. I dont have any problems with positioning and posture although I occasionally get numbness if I havent slept properly the night before and guaranteed I am usually not quite sober, at a festival and put my neck out from sleeping on the ground while tenting (not passed out drunk) For some reason my shoulder and collar bone make a correct natural shoulder rest and I suffer no pain or discomfort. I do however stretch a lot, its habitual from sitting still.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Joze
Neck length could factor in shoulder-rest use
I think relaxing and using proper posture are the two keys to this problem. Though a glass of bubbly sounds good too.
What's interesting is that no one has mentioned one's neck length when saying where they stand on the shoulder-rest question. I imagine that folks with long necks might have more need of a shoulder rest than people with short necks, like Itzhak Perlman for example. I use a shoulder rest and it seems to work well with my long neck.
For what it's worth, pain could be a warning that prevents worse problems from developing. Since the head and neck are connected to the rest of the spine, developing good posture now could prevent spinal misalignments later on.
I also notice that the more I relax the better my playing sounds.
# Posted on December 10th 2006 by edward7