What style of bodhran playing do you like and why?
I think Colm Murphy is the king because he adds to the music in a dynamic way,Ringo is solid and keeps it simple and John joe dose his own thing but he still holds a beat.
May I add at this point that many of the derogatory comments relating to bodhran playing which will most likely follow in this thread are to be taken with several pinches of salt. I like John Joe Kelly's playing aswell. I heard a recording just minutes ago of Francis McIlduff of Belfast (more famous for excellent pipng and low whistling) playing the bodhran at first light. He is barely mentioned in the same breath as John Joe Kelly, Ringo, Junior Davey etc, but his bodhran playing is first class.
I love bodhrans....the only problem that I see in most music is that they are not loud enough. The pitter pat pitter pat in the back ground just is not enough to get my blood pumping.
Have you ever sat next to a VERY loud bodhran in a session? I have, in a session in An Teach Beag in Clonakilty in August this year. I couldn't hear myself play, let alone the whistle player on my right, or anyone else in the session for that matter. The middle-aged bodhranist on my left studiously ignored all attempts to get him to quieten down, and ten minutes after I joined the session the leader lost patience, reached across me with his foot and kicked the rim of the bodhran, making it perfectly clear that it and its owner were surplus to requirements. Our man got the message and immediately packed up and left. A rare case of someone literally being kicked out of a session!
Generally, I enjoy bodhrans in sessions here in Bristol. There are usually one or two in a session - one of them frequently being an excellent player from Norn Iron (hi, Jenny!) - and the playing in my experience only adds to the quality of the session.
I was told once about a summer school in Ireland where in one of the beginners fiddle classes the tutor was having a problem trying to get one or two pupils to loosen up their very stiff bowing wrist and hand. So he sent them along the corridor to a bodhran class for an hour's tuition. Problem solved.
The bodhrans at our session have driven away good players so we've attempted to solve the problem by requesting that only one of them play at a time. They seem to be a bit thick though, and when the craic gets going, they can't contain themselves, and they all (three or four) jump in and drown things out. They've been spoken to politely, yelled at, and shunned, but like I said, they're thick. I'm fairly new on the session scene, but my experience is that good drummers are rare. I suspect that any drummer who is a veteran of this board is good because they are interested enough in the music to really be part of it as contributors, not simply to hang out, drink the beer, and pretend to be "musicians".
Donnchadh Gough, John Joe Kelly and Tristan Rosenstock are all superb and unique players. My favorite player, however, has got to be Sean McCann of Great Big Sea, a fantastically popular band from Newfoundland that plays both traditional and original songs and tunes. His playing is not flashy, but it not only keeps the beat but, rather than adding to the music, it is the music. No one but Sean McCann, so far as I can see, has the ability to make the bodhran the core of the music, the central part that everything revolves around. That deserves merit.
By the way, when I say 'popular', I mean to say that I'm surprised and impressed that a group that has remained so true to its traditonal roots has managed to get national-if not worldwide-acclaim and popularity. I realized that the wording could be misinterpreted.
I love the kind of flat playing continuously insisting on the basses. There's a bodhrán player called Niall McQuaid I think, in Galway, he plays this way. hes the guy playing the bidhrán in Galway postcards It's a very unassuming style, but I find it very up to the point.
Just to second what has already been said about Fra McIlduff; he is a class bodhrán player and he certainly taught me a lot. He and his brother are great percussionists, althought they are both primarily known for their virtuosity on the pipes. In my opinion it's a great asset if you can play another instrument; you can appreciate the music and how it should be accompanied much more. No surprise that JJ Kelly plays a schneaky mandolin.
Bodhran players can add , rather than detract, IF played within the players skill limits. e.g. even a beginner , if playing simply, and not too loudly, by tapping out the beat (in strict time of course) can 'set the pulse' of the music. A skilled player can add much more of course - see this video of John Jo in a recent session in County Clare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWXUEiFKUQ8
(poor video quality -but great playing). This clip was during a particularly exhuberant few minutes - but as a 'proper musician' he also knows when to hold back - or stop playing altogether.
Dose = amount of medicine or poison administered at any one time ~ a measure of concentration varying from pleasurable to bearable to toxic ~ depending on the method of delivery can also result in extensive bruising and pain...
Thank you ceolachan. Bad bodhran playing can be like a dose of the cl#p. Does anyone like Bodhrans? In the hands of a skilled musician they,like any instrument, can be fantastic. However, in the hands of a novice, they are usually truly destructive to the music. So yes, I love a well played bodhran......Such a pity it'e such a rare beast.
When Trouble in the Kitchen let Benno loose on a bodhran solo it's amazing. I guess it's because when he isn't playing the bodhran he's on the flute or the guitar that he knows how to get it just right! Oh....and Gino Lupari is pretty amazing too!
I guess it's like any instrument - there are those who are amazing, there are those who just think they are amazing, and there are those who are pretty awful! (the good, the bad and the ugly!)
Thanks to those who replied to the question and for the rest of you , bad fiddle playing,bad banjo playing or anything else played badly can ruin a session.There seems to be alot of musicans who don t like bodhrans full stop. But i have reliased that the good musicans know what a bodhran has to offer.
Michael, do you mean that literally? That a well-played bodhran just repeats what the tune does w/o notes? I don't know that I'd agree with that.
Still, I suppose, that's kinda-sorta what happens, and it explains -- at least to me -- why the bodhran is so unpopular. I like the effect, which happens in, say, symphonic work, by creating a whole new tone out of each note. But it's only really pleasing as a special effect, I'd say. A little bit goes a long way, which is probably why bands like the Bothy Band used it so sparingly. But in a session, having that sound occurring tune after tune is tedious, in my opinion.
That's another reason why multi-instrumentalists who bang the drum can do so well -- not only because they likely have greater sensitivity to the tune but because they occasionally don't play drum.
Punters love them, to answer the question, which causes much jealousy among "hierarchy" melody players.
Anyone with ears adjusts to the level at which it needs played, because a pitter patter bodhran at a full session is a waste of time.
For example, I was at a session the other week, one flute player and me, so I played by hand rather than stick. That is commonsense.
There are many fine exponents of the bodhran, all capable of enlivening and adding to a session.
............Ilig Leahcim, in the green shorts. And in this corner, bodhran bliss, wearing red shorts and waving a matching red rag. Now I want a clean fight with no.......
Actually, all of the above is true at different times. What else is new?
We have a local tuba player who knows how much to play, and when not to play. In anyone else's hands.......
Mr Bliss's answer, "the punters love 'em", should be over on the Bruce's/Starting Over's diatribe of a thread.
I think the bodhran can have a very effective place in a performance setting or a recording. Donal Lunny is my favourite. But to say the punter's love 'em in a session setting shows up a particularly irritating arrogance. That of wishing to transform a session into a performance. And If you could find a session melody player who would be jealous of then, then that would be one tune player I'd rather not play with also.
"What style of bodhran playing do you like and why?
I think Colm Murphy is the king because he adds to the music in a dynamic way,Ringo is solid and keeps it simple and John joe dose his own thing but he still holds a beat"
Saint, I'm with you there.
Been playing the drum for over 20 years and learned in the (I later found out) "Kerry" style. Friends and relatives said I ought to see Flook so I did. Experimented with "Top End" style for a while (see JJK clip above) but Kerry style felt more natural to me and fits into the sessions I play in.
Saw Flook recently and JJK was playing mostly Kerry style apart from the tracks where Top End was part of the arrangement.
I agree with most of the above comments, apart from the silly ones. But they're to be expected.
that's interesting then. So do we agree? Do we agree that your statement, "the punters love 'em", while undoubtedly true, is, to the session playing musician, irrelevant?
Thanks for the JJ clip its a pitty there is not more clips like this around.I just listened to Teada s new cd and the playing is excellent .I think Tristan has got it spot on .
Can bodhran bliss actually answer the question instead of talking sh*t.
PB, I think "irrelevant" is the operative word here. The point against which you argued at length--"to the session playing musician" any notion of performance is irrelevant.
And in my neck of the woods, some of the punters (i.e., non-playing participants) get it, too.
Will, some of the punters in our local get it too, but I'm not as quick to write off everyone in the room who doesn't "get it" as "irrelevant." It’s my opinion that we live in a world of people, and when we go out in public we are among them – but not above them.
No one has mentioned Jim Higgins or Siobhan O'Donnell. Both understated players who use tone and no pyrotechnics although they are capable of it. I still go back to Ringo who I had lessons with this year on Inis Oirr.
1. You do not consider sessions performances.
2. Punters do consider sessions performances.
3. Punters like the bodhran.
4. You play the bodran.
There are only two ways you can reconcile this apparent contradiction. Either:
a. no matter how hard you try, you just can't stop yourself from performing.
b. No matter how many times a musician might say to you that they are not performing, you don't believe them.
Yep, this persistence in logging onto a site about sessions and telling us we're public performers reminds me of the habits of a certain Canadian keyboardist who was roundly berated (by some of the same people) for being undable to tell the difference between a session and a performance. Weird, really.
Blissters wrote: "And musicians playing in public become a public performance, no matter how they try to hide it."
Or how much they try to deny it.
I think they should hand out flyers at their sessions explaining to the public that there's no performance of anything going on like that and people should just pretend there are no musicians in the room and ignore any music they might happen to hear.
The funny thing to me, Will, is that you and I agree completely on the perspective of the session musician. Our only stumbling block is the difference regarding the punters perspective. I will never be comfortable going into an environment that includes non musicians and pretend that they aren't there, or to ignore them if they try to express appreciation for what we're doing. I don't want to grill them and find out if they understand the session from my perspective before I thank them, and I don't want to ignore them, but to them it's a performance. So what's the big deal? So what!
You assume too much, Jack. I don't ignore them, but we do gradually help most of the regulars understand the differences between a session and a performance. It's called communication, craic even. I'm not sure why you keep jumping to the conclusion that I ignore people or treat them with hostility. Imagining that you know how I behave or think in a session stikes me as strange, eh?
Some of the best craic we've had is joking with newcomers about how an Irish session works. Laura and Gail come to mind. Neither plays the music, but they come almost every week, sit close, and visit with us between sets, very much part of the circle. They've learned to "show appreciation" (if that's what it is) by buying a round instead of clapping.
One way to understand the differences might be to compare thesession.org with this site: http://www.performances.org/. Right in your neighborhood, too, PB.
Really, to me, insisting on this separation of musicians and "audience" misses a huge part of the magic of a good session. And misses the point and spirit of this site as well.
So how long does it take before the punters understand that you're not giving a "performance"? As for clapping; I clap too if I think someone played a tune particularly well. (I do this on tunes I'm not playing) Am I not getting it? There are also a few folks (non musicians) who regularly show up to enjoy the music, buy us rounds, etc., but they'll clap now and then for the same reason. I'm curious now... do you instruct people not to clap? Did you tell Laura and Gail not to clap? How did they come to avoiding it?
Clapping in and of itself isn't much of a bother. But it can get in the way. Sometimes a punter will start clapping, thinking the set has ended, but just because all of the louder instruments stopped doesn't mean that our lone mandolinist or a more tentative player isn't taking the opportunity to continue on a tune s/he wants to play and keep the set going. I've also noticed that clapping encourages the musicians to start pandering to the "audience," or hike up their anxiety levels because they're suddenly aware that they're "performing." Both indicate a shift in attention and attitude that can kill the intimacy of a cozy session.
We consciously do a few things to encourage participation in ways other than clapping. If a particularly rousing set gets them clapping, I've been known to tell the punters (with a big smile on my face), "No need for applause--it only encourages us!" Also, clappers quickly suss things out if they start clapping, thinking the set has ended, but we launch right into another tune. If one of the musicians later says, with a chuckle, "Help! Stop me before I diddle again!" or "Ha! We fooled 'em that time!" it takes the possible embarrassment away, but they still get the idea. In other words, we find little openings to draw people into our circle with humor and direct communication.
I've lost count of how many times someone new to the session experience has come up to me afterwards and commented on how refreshing it is to enjoy music played for its own sake.
Laura and Gail introduced themselves early on and started asking questions about how our session works. We lied to them mercilessly, but they figured it out anyway.
Point being that we don't have a rule against it, but we prefer to create an environment where people can engage without assuming that we're playing music for their attention or even benefit. They're free to sit and listen, join in, whatever. But they're also free to sit nearby, eat a meal, and have a conversation about the latest episode of Survivor.
Actually, I think what happens is that the lyrics beg people's attention. Songs tell stories, and we all instinctively respond to that, like sunflowers turning to the light. Instrumentals don't "mean" anything, don't require a casual listener to decode any message.
Your conduct doesn't sound any different than what happens here, but there are always people in the pub who want to show their appreciation regardless. To them we can only assume that they believe we are in the act of performing our skills on our chosen instruments for everyone's appreciation (including ourselves) and they just want to acknowledge it.
After they thought we were done only to find out we were still going a few times, they lose interest and settle into their conversation or whatever. Others who are more interested will eventually learn that it doesn't necessarily mean the "set" has ended and they'll wait to make certain if they intend to clap. Others still might have gotten the idea (as Laura and Gail did) that clapping isn't necessary even though they might be enjoying and appreciating the result of how we perform our musical skills.
And as you said: the singers get applause from everyone. But does that mean that part of the session is a performance and the rest isn't? Why even try to make a distinction? Why does the word "performance" cause so much controversy? Why can't we acknowledge that we're performing our skills in public but it's not a formal performance? I think even the punters understand that much. It just seems like we're demonizing the word "performance" when there's no need to.
No one is demonizing anything Jack. There you go again, ascribing attitudes to people whose heads you're not inside.
This conversation is similar in substance to the one with poor Bruce, for whom playing music means performing. I think the barrage from the peanut gallery here made it quite clear that many session musicians and session.org members don't see it that way. And "performance" is a term they'd rather not dwell on. It's a "session." We don't need another word for it.
Will writes: "There you go again, ascribing attitudes to people whose heads you're not inside."
Not exactly -- I said, "we're demonizing the word" not "you're demonizing the word." To exclude the word all together and make it forbidden reminds me a little to much of when people become too PC about certain things... that's my point. I don't think it moves the discussion forward regarding what a session is or isn't. Instead, I think it's useful to acknowledge the word for what it is, what it means to the punter, and then move on.
The difference between the conversation we had with Bruce and this one is that Bruce was unable to separate the word "performance" from "session" the way you and I can. I do think you and I agree on what a session is essentially, where we differ is about the meaning of the word "performance." You seem to want it to be excluded all together even though the meaning of the word describes the act of playing music in public -- like we do at sessions in pubs. Whereas I recognize the perspective and experience from the punter’s point of view to be just as legitimate as our own. We’re all in the pub together.
Lol, then demonize away, Jack, but leave me out of it. Maybe you should've written "I'm demonizing...."
Heh, I don't care what word you want to use instead of "session." You can call it an enterprise, function, engagement, production, exhibition, affair, execution, etc. All of them perfectly good synonyms for "performance" (as in "we are now going to execute some tunes on our instruments"). And you can deal with the unfortunate or inappropriate connotations each of those might bring to your session. If you want to talk about sessions like a linguistic semantacist or ESL student, that's your perogative.
But given your stated understanding of how a session differs significantly from a formal performance, I don't see why you'd want to. You can "perform" your tunes to your heart's content...I prefer to play mine, and lower the risk of misleading people into thinking a session is a formal performance (which we both agree it isn't).
Why didn't Jeremy call this site www.theperformance.org?
I'd like to think I'm not demonizing the word performance, though I can understand people getting that impression. For that I'm sorry.
I like performances, I love a good performer, in the propper setting. I even liked performing myself, though long ago now.
And I agree that the topic seems a bit done to death of late. However, The interesting point about it, for me anyway, is that I think it very neatly defines what a session is (and given the name of this forum, we can't complain about that). Namely, live music without performance. And as soon as a performance element comes into it, it, by definition, is no longer a session.
Of course there are grey areas, like everything. And I've often participated in sessions that for one reason or an other turned into performances. Two grey areas that irritate me though, are 1. when the punters in the pub, usually through simply not knowing what's going on, demand a performance. And 2. when one of the musicians (or drummers) in the company start to play to the crowd.
And I hope Jack can see that I've gone out of my way to describe how I relate positively to the punters and anyone else in the pub (despite his insinuations to the contrary).
3. to present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music or a play to an audience
~~~
When you're in public you have an "audience" whether you like it or not. Granted, we aren't playing to them -- but they're still there and think of themselves as an audience.
So I guess the bottom line is, as MG puts it, when the word "perfomance" comes into it he feels he is no longer participating in a session. This gives the word "performance" too much power in my opinion. If someone in the bar thinks the session is a performance it has absolutely no effect on me. I couldn't care less -- I still enjoy myself regardless, and it has no effect on the session whatsoever.
Jack, can you see the difference in the two definitions you provided. One says nothing about an audience. The other does.
And Michael and I have just given two instances where the "performance" aspect *does* in fact interfere with a good session--(1) when punters demand a performance (insisting that you cater to them, and (2) when musicians start to play to the crowd for their own ego's sake. Both of these can ruin the intimacy of a good session, and they are examples of why your notion of audience is at odds with session craic.
It's not about the word. It's about the concept of dividing the pub crowd into players and audience, and all the attendant pitfalls that can follow. I don't mind an audience at my gigs. But I prefer my sessions with a roomful of participants.
Jack, I concur. If someone in the bar thinks the session is a performance it has absolutely no effect on me either. I still enjoy myself regardless, and it has no effect on the session ... (except, however, when that person claps loudly between tunes and complains when you sit with your back to them, etc).
But the being in public and having an audience thing is not as cut and dried as you state. An example someone came up with earlier was having a conversation in a bar. You are in a public place, so does that give the guy stood next to you the "right" to listen to your conversation? You are in public, and the conversation you are having is tailored accordingly, and if the guy next to you can hear it, so be it. Even if he wants to listen, to eavesdrop, that's OK. But is he "allowed" to laugh outloud at one of your jokes?
I'm not saying people should pretend not to be listening to your music, or that they should refrain from showing appreciation in some subtle manner, just that the polite thing to do is to realise that it's not their conversation. I disagree with Will here, I think there is a divide
To me, a session is like a potluck. I don't discriminate against people who didn't bring food or choose not to eat, even if I'm stuffing my pie hole. But it would be a bit odd for me to go to a potluck with the idea that I'm going to eat in front of other people for their entertainment....
Yes, sessions can be community events and they are great. But it's not easy in a town of busy itenerant tourists and rowdy students. I don't mind that I'm going to play music in the same room as them, but would mind if it was for their entertainment.
And yes, ther is a world of difference between performing before admirers and playing to the crowd. But I wonder where banging the bodhran within an intimate group of non-performers because the punters love it fits?
Will writes: "Jack, can you see the difference in the two definitions you provided. One says nothing about an audience. The other does."
Yes, Will, I see the differences, but I also see the similarities. I did address that in that same post. When you "play" an instrument you "use a musical instrument to produce music," but when you play tunes in public you "present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music (tune) or a play to an audience." The audience doesn't think they're "eavesdropping" or at a "potluck" (unless your session is happening at a potluck.) They're enjoying your performance whether or not you think you're giving one. Big deal.
Oh, and quite often the people in the pub at our session don't think they'r at a potluck or a performance. They think they're at this peculiar thing called a "session." And so do we. So that's what we call it.
To tell the truth I play mostly mandolin on our Sunday session, because this is indeed a paid performance, and not a real session. We play a number of tunes, but we are required to "entertain", and would play to/for the crowd to an extent.
At a real session I would play the bodhran. Where that fits in with
"But I wonder where banging the bodhran within an intimate group of non-performers because the punters love it fits" I have no idea as it is a concept that is foreign to me.
Problem is Michael, you always jump to extremes, certainly where bodhrans are concerned.
If anybody ever even so much as indicates they're listening to the music at our session, we club them to death with a tenor banjo. It's just plain sensible.
By "advertised" I mean it's listed as such in various calendars around the area.
The Grinter is fully keyed... and so is my bodhran.
I play the bodhran at our session because we seem to have frightened all the other playersl away. (joking) Because I also play flute and concertina it's impossible to play the bodhran too much -- often only once or twice a night at best. But I love to play it, and I love the sound. If another player comes in I usually just leave it in the case. If another concertina or flute player comes I'll play it more often to give them a chance to be the only flute or concertina on a few tunes. If another flute or concertina player is there... and another bodhran player as well... I uh... flirt with the ladies more. If the other flute, concertina, or bodhran player is a ladie I would like to flirt with... I just sit there and listen politely...
Perhaps I should have said it brings out the worst in you, Michael, the mere mention of the B word. Your usual humour, and reasoned argument, seems to desert you.
If a group of individuals sets up in a public place like a restaurant or a bar and has a private conversation at a volume that might intrude on everyone else's enjoyment of that public place, they have a responsibility to be sensitive to those other people's needs. (I'm acutely aware of this, having recently been seated with a group of very loud and obnoxious clients in a beautiful but very reserved and quiet Paris restaurant.) Obviously the punters can't impose topics of conversation on the group, but they can expect them not to use foul language, break out in fistfights, etc. In the same way, the output from a session needs to be "pleasant" in fairness to the other people who share that public space. So it's not a public performance in the audience-versus-stage mold, but it is to the extent that punters have a right to expect quality music.
Why clap for singers and not for tunes? For some reason, our culture sees singers as going out on a limb much more than players of musical instruments. The clapping is usually more to encourage the individual and congratulate them for taking a risk, rather than to compliment them on the song or its performance.
What does the publican expect when s/he invites a session? It would seem to me that it is expected that punters will enjoy it and hence stick around and spend money. At one of the pubs we play at it is required that we will be playing among the punters (paying customers) and not in the more comodious and quiet back room.
Yes, I appologise. My usual humour does escape me when I talk about bodhrans, though not, I hope, my reasoning. But it's hard to reason with someone who glories in "performing, at a session".
Mr Bliss classes himself as a multi insrtumentalist, but the one the thing he does not do is play the tunes that are the backbone of what everyone else here accepts is a session. By his own admission, they bore him. And I don't blame him, it would be boring to simply bang a drum along with them all evening, in the same way that it would be boring to sit at the bar and just listen to them all evening. At the very least, he seems intelligent enough to realise this. Instead, he'd rather perform.
Grego's take on why people clap for songs - to congratulate the risk of it, - is interesting, but i'm not sure it's the whole story. For starters, there tends to be silence from the punters for a song and this is for two reasons which are interdependent. The first - and it was mentioned earlier - is that the narrative that is the words asks, especially to non musicians, for a more structured approach to listening than do instrumentals. The second it that performers are attracted to singing for this reason. Bliss's attitude is a classic description of this.
Michael, have you met me? Who said I do not play tunes, who said I glory in performing at a session, who said I do not like tunes?
I perform, musically, for pay. At a session I join in,in a quiet unassuming manner as befits the world's supreme bodhran player. You may find someone as good, or you may prefer someone else, but they will not be better. All a matter of taste.
And my dear Saint, you mention beginners like John Joe Kelly at the start of this thread, and then suggest I know little about bodhrans. Surely a contradiction there somewhere.
I think the singers get the unanimous applause because the cues are so clear. The room gets shushed, everyone's paying attention, the song has a clear beginning and end, etc. And about the applause: depending on how well the singer does the applause are either for the performance or just the relief that it's over.
Mr Bliss, it's difficult sometimes to clock the difference between bravado and serious comment, which is as it should be of course. I can't be arsed to search the back catalogue for your postings, but, correct me if I'm wrong: I seem to remember you talking about playing O'Carolan tunes on the mandolin, and the lownesome boatman on the whistle, and the blues moothee. And I think I remember you talking about the value of the inclusion variety of stuff because of the tedium of jigs and reels. And I seem to remember you talking about not having the dexterity to play jigs and reels fast enough. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, I don't know you, (though I suspect we would have a bit of a craic if we met). Though you must admit, the statement, "at a session I join in, in a quiet unassuming manner," is a little at odds with you cyberspace persona here.
Because... unless the room is shushed you can't hear the singer at all. Also, it's impossible to sing if there's noise in a room like that. You can still hear the tunes provided punters aren't screaming at each other or laughing like rabid hyenas. Also, the tunes are continuous throughout the night and the punters don't feel they have to give them undivided attention as they would during a formal concert. Why do you think the room gets shushed?
That's a brilliant answer mate. Absolutely no sarcasm, I love it.
"The tunes are continuous throughout the night and the punters don't feel they have to give them undivided attention as they would during a formal concert." Perfect.
Why do I think the room gets shushed for a song? The two reasons I mentioned above, inherant narative of words and projected ego of the singer.
This gets to the rub of it and I'm pleased. The whole concept of punters NOT feeling like they owe the tunes undevided attention is the whole basis of the non-performance ethos. It's music that neither asks nor deserves attention from those not participating in its creation.
I agree with you on that llig - I've never once felt that a session was a performance - in any sense of the word - I play in a pub in public because there arent many house sessions going on. And if I want to play with others thats where I have to go.
And for any of you who are interested - 'Tommy Tiernan - sums it up on his live DVD - all about how your almost at that perfect state in a session where the tunes are flying - and someone always comes with a song 'annnndddd eeeeyyye dunnnoooo' - Highly recommended for anyway who just loves and old tune session without songs every second set.
PS - not saying I dont like songs or singers - I just think there really is a time and a place. And good on the sessions that have an equal number of both tunes and songs - thats great - it just wouldnt be my ideal session.
Okay - I'm bracing myself to get shot down now for expressing an opinion - just like MG did on the 'Our Band' thread. Ducks for cover.....
But Michael... if you asked those punters how they thought the musicians performed at the pub that night, they might say, "Excellently!" or, "It was pure sh*te!" but I guarantee you they would be very unlikely to say anything like, "Well... it wasn't actually a performance, you see... it was a 'session' -- and sessions aren't 'performances'."
bb writes, "I've never once felt that a session was a performance - in any sense of the word - I play in a pub in public because there arent many house sessions going on. And if I want to play with others thats where I have to go."
Of course, bb, but what do the punters there think you're doing? I'm sure they enjoy listening and watching you perfoming your skills on the fiddle. I can see it now...
1st person to 2nd: Gosh... she performed that tune beautifully! Don't you think?
2nd person: No... she wasn't performing you eejit... it's a session, and people aren't performing -- they're just wiggling their fingers around on instruments. Geesh... goes to show what you know.
a lot of folk have mentioned great bodhran players on record or on stage, but how many can say with their hand on their heart that they'd like one sitting next to them in a session, unless they could be sure it was a sensitive genius like bbliss ?
Yep mr button, good posting, to the crux again, quite right.
But the question is a misnomer.
It would be like asking a horticulturist how beautiful a flower was. they'd say "lovely", of course. But I guarantee you they would be very unlikely to say anything like, "Well actually, the flower is just an abstract shape to attract insects to aid pollination."
Now I understand that ITM sessioners have they're own language and words that mean one thing to the rest of the world have a different meaning among sessioners, but punters aren't necessarily privy to the code. Let's look again at the meaning as it appears in the dictionary.
per·form v
3. to present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music (tune) or a play to an audience (punters)
Now I realize we aren't playing to the audience, but they're there, and some of them are listening, and that makes an audience.
audience
1. a group of people who are watching and listening to a show, concert, or other live performance (other meaning session)
Since the dictionary has already defined that to perform is the playing of tunes on an instrument, then the punters in the pub who are listening become the audience that makes the event a "performance.” These are just the facts according to anyone who doesn't know or understand the ITM sessioner's secret code. Sessioners avoid the term "performance" because they don't like the connotation, and I understand that, but the rest of the world still goes by the English language according to the dictionary when they try to perceive what's happening at the pub during a session.
I really don't know how to make it any more clear than my prior post. I think the best way to describe what a session might seem like to punters, or what punters believe they are witnessing, is more or less an "informal performance." If punters are interested enough to want to get inside our heads they might realize the shortcomings of that definition, but few will bother. A vast majority will go away thinking that's what they saw -- an "informal performance" of Irish music.
"bbliss" is perhaps getting too close to "bb". For the sake of clarity, and to confer suitable respect, I propose that the name Bodhran Bliss be used, which could be shortened to BB.
Clapping at the end of a song. Heeuuuch! or Yeeeeehaaaa! at the end of a tune. No admiration implied. OK?
Well, real-world use of words doesn't come from the dictionary. It's the other way 'round--dictionary definitions are taken from real-world usage. Unfortunately, they too often come from formal written sources, rather than straight forward street vernacular. So most native speakers of a language don't go around citing dictionary definitions and taking them so literally. Thank heavens we don't all go around talking like dictionary definitions....
Words take most of their meaning from context. Take them out of context--or USE THEM IN THE WRONG CONTEXT--and you create confusion and misunderstandings.
Our sessions are so unlike performances that it would strike me as odd if anyone described one as any kind of performance, informal or otherwise. If the punter's in Jack's scenario were commenting on our session, the conversation would much more likely go as follies:
Punter Bob: "Not bad for a bunch of drunks. That one in the corner can really play."
Punter Joe: "Yeah, every now and then they'd all get in the same groove--imagine if they actually practiced!"
Punter Bob: "Well, I suppose that's the difference between a band gig and whatever this is. What'd the bartender call it--a session?"
Punter Joe: "Yep, just like the one's I saw on vacation over in Galway. 'Cept the Guinness is better over there."
Come to think of it, it would also be really strange if the people in the pub thought of themselves as an audience. Most of them aren't really listening--they're eating, drinking, talking, reading, watching telly in the back, or throwing darts. Not at all typical of audience behavior I've seen at "performances."
Ask Joe or Bob what they thought of the performance and they'll answer that in a similar way as well. And I bet they won't correct you on the use of the word either. You'd have to explain it to them first before they'd even notice.
I disagree. No doubt San Francisco has some "performance artists" who abuse their audiences by ignoring them while they juggle cabbages or pose mannequins on stage and it's considered not just a performance but high art.
Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them.
I've tried to get people to refer to BBliss as BB and not 'bb' - it doesnt work - and now people tend to call me beebs BB = Bodhran Bliss the talented and if I say extremely modest Bodhran player. bb = Beebs - the one who has taste in tunes
Seriously. If you asked Joe or Bob what they thought of the "performance," I think they'd laugh and tell us to keep our day jobs.
The regular punters get it, of course. And many of the irregulars get it, too, because they've come to an Irish pub, so the whole concept of a session--as we understand it in all of its differences from a formal performance--fits their expectations.
Bliss, here they just turn the sound off so those who want to can watch the game. We did play in a pub where the manager kept turning the sound back on (and up)--didn't take long for us to find friendlier quarters.
Geez, I have no trouble keeping beebs and bliss apart--haven't you seen a pic of beebs?! No mistaking her for a hirsute goat thumper.
Funny, so are most of the sessions I've been to elsewhere. Seems like most sessions go out of their way to find a pub with a side room or snug big enough for the players, off a bit from the usual bar crowd. And I've played in brilliant sessions with big names where between every set some lout of a punter was yelling at us to stop or leave. I've overheard punters call a session a "private party."
Jack, I'm starting to worry that you might not really understand just how casual and nearly invisible a session can be. They are so unlike any kind of performance, in intent, appearance, vibe, etc.
Happy? Yes, thank you. Sitting here cheerfully thinking about the fun I have at sessions. I thought we were just chatting about this again, since you and Michael and Bliss rekindled the topic.
Well, I happy for you too, but unless a news bulletin goes out to the general public and English professors around the world are updated concerning this new exclusion for the meaning, most punters are still going to be going by the dictionary definition for what it means if people are playing music in a public place. I’ve been to a fair amount of pubs where sessions are in progress and the punters give every indication that they believe what’s going on is an informal performance of some sort regardless of what the musicians think of what they're doing. I have yet to visit the pub where you hold yours; it would be interesting to see these edified punters of yours.
Aiiieee - cant you guys argue about something worthwhile - like
* Is BBliss the Best Bodhran player ever in the world - or is he the Best Bodhran player ever in eternity
Okay -but dont you agree that it is neither here nor there if the punters think themselves as an 'audience' and think that we are 'performing'? I mean really - who cares what they think? unless you are getting paid to do it and even when I get paid to do it I could care less if there are people there listening or not.
Wow, these dictionaries are powerful books, I guess. Let's see, what does Merriam-Webster have to say about Jack?
n: 1: a man, laborer (e.g., lumberjack), or sailor
2: any of various usually mechanical devices: as a : a device for turning a spit b : a usually portable mechanism or device for exerting pressure or lifting a heavy body a short distance
3 : something that supports or holds in position: as a : an iron bar at a topgallant masthead to support a royal mast and spread the royal shrouds b : a wooden brace fastened behind a scenic unit in a stage set to prop it up
4 a : any of several fishes; especially : any of various carangids b : a male donkey c : JACKRABBIT d : any of several birds (as a jackdaw)
5 a : a small white target ball in lawn bowling b : a small national flag flown by a ship c (1) plural but singular in construction : a game played with a set of small objects that are tossed, caught, and moved in various figures (2) : a small 6-pointed metal object used in the game of jacks
6 a : a playing card carrying the figure of a soldier or servant and ranking usually below the queen b : JACKPOT 1a(2)
7 slang : MONEY
8 : a female fitting in an electric circuit used with a plug to make a connection with another circuit
Yer right, Jack, the dictionary has certainly clarified things for me. I now have a much more complete picture of who you must be.
Beebs, that's too easy. We have it on Bliss's own word that he is the best bodhran player the universe has or will ever know. Others may be as good, but none better.
Which, come to think of it, also applies well to, say, a stone dug out of a field. Others may be as good a stone, but none better.
Remember: we are each of us unique...just like everyone else.
bb writes: "Okay -but dont you agree that it is neither here nor there if the punters think themselves as an 'audience' and think that we are 'performing'? I mean really - who cares what they think?"
I don't care what they think we're doing either, bb. But I don't think we're above them; their experience is just as valid as ours. To us it's a session... to them it's an informal performance. Who's right and who's wrong is irrelevant, but for all intents and purposes -- both are right. You can educate the punters about what you're doing the way Will has in his pub, but that won't change the facts. The only difference will be in the definition.
I dont think we are above them at all. I just dont care if they are there or not, it doesnt bother me, unless they are noisy, and annoying and start singing the 'fields of Athenry' - then I have to tell them to feck off.
Sigh. Jack, there you go reading what you want into my posts instead of what they really say, and getting all condescending and sarcastic. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, you take it down to the level of a junior high playgorund argument. Not a flattering position to take.
We've been through this before. For the sake of anyone else reading this (since you apparently refuse to comprehend it): words derive meaning from the context in which they're used, not from a dictionary. Dictionaries merely document commonly assigned meanings. Lots of words have more than one meaning, sometimes even meaning the opposite of one another. (E.g., depending on who's saying it and under what circumstances, f**k can mean either "let's make love" or "I'm gonna kill you.") So the fact that "performance" can mean "to execute a skill" or "musical or theatrical entertainment for an audience" doesn't mean both of those definitions necessarily apply to the same real-world phenomenon. Love making would become prohibitively risky if we typically misunderstood each other so drastically....
Will, it's disappointing that you feel it necessary resort to ad hominem. I have not described you with words like "condescending" and "sarcastic" nor have I compared your discussion abilities to a "junior high playground argument." I refuse to engage any further if you insist on insulting me in this manner. Thanks for the discussion thus far, but I won't respond to your future posts unless your attitude and language improve.
bb writes: "I dont think we are above them at all. I just dont care if they are there or not, it doesnt bother me, unless they are noisy, and annoying and start singing the 'fields of Athenry' - then I have to tell them to feck off."
Yea... hahaha... that's when I start caring too.
But it would be like me seeing punters chatting and drinking in a pub only to find out they didn't see it that way themselves. To them they might see it as something else and could even argue the point, but for me it wouldn't matter -- they're chatting and drinking in a pub as far as I can tell. Which one of us is wrong?
Maybe this is too much of a philosophical discussion that none of us here are qualified for... I know I'm not. But I just can't see that a tree doesn't fall in a forest if the loggers didn't think they cut it down.
Used in moderation and in appropriate tunes, I find the sound of the bodhran anywhere from entrancing to hair-raising, and I like it a lot. To judge from most posts here, the instrument is being abused a lot! It's like a heavy spice, you don't want too much, and you certainly don't want it in every dish you cook.
I have a tar, which could be a tame version of the bodhran, and I love playing it though even with its relatively mild voice I suspect my neighbors might not, so I rarely use it anymore. I believe I'll take it out into one of our pretty parks some fine day and play away as much as I want. It's truly meditative....
Jack, I'm tempted to let you off the hook, but I can't. Your reasoning is flawed, and whenever someone reveals that flawed reasoning, instead of re-examining your position or posting a reasoned explanation of it to move the conversation forward, you resort to cheap sarcasm, ridicule, and patronizing language. I'm calling it as I see it.
It's impossible to have a civil discussion with you--and then you accuse me of being insulting because I've pointed out your unreasonable and condescending rhetoric. You attack, and then cry "I'm the victim!"
Enough goes on here at the yella board--like the gang-up on Bruce--that would cross my threshold for basic civility, and yet I can abide Jeremy's decision to let much of it stand. But your relentless incivility when someone disagrees with you or challenges your idiosyncratic notions of what sessions are about crosses the line. I hope you come to your senses before Jeremy does.
Apologies to the innocent bystanders who stumble on this sordid scene. I'm sincerely disappointed that it's come to this again, but I'm tired of ugly rhetoric trumping reason. I'm tired of listening to people who think that if they say something is true often enough, it must be true, even when it flies in the face of other people's reality. That's what's wrong with public discourse in America these days, and I'm sad to see it infect a community I've enjoyed for many years.
I think the answer's staring you both (Whoosis + PB) in the face. Will, it's simply that your session is different to Jack's. We all have different tastes in sessions and the way they are run, adn this leads us to hold different ideals and definitions of what a session should be. I imagine Jack's session to be much more like a performance than yours, Will. I get the impression that his would be a lot more serious - less getting up and walking around and chatting, little or no noodling of half-remembered tunes, just set after set of well-rehearsed tunes played by people who play together on a regular basis as a band. That's fine if that's what you're into. I think unless you've been to each other's sessions there's little point in discussing it further because it's all speculation.
I don't think you can really judge how the sessions compare in Ireland either. I doubt either of you have spent long enough as a regular in one particular session over there to get into the musicians heads enough to judge their ideals and definitions of how a session should be. I would think you'd have to be going every week for a few months or years to get a feel for that.
I can only make a point from my own experience of sessions I've been a regular at in my local area, and people in my area who I've played with. Someone like bb for example, I play with her quite a lot, and we're good friends, so I know what tunes she plays and her likes and dislikes, and how she views sessions and what her ideals are. They're a bit different from my own, but I nevertheless have a broad understanding of how she works. Now, Jack, you've seen her YouTube posting right? I can tell you right now that if you take those 3 musicians out of Bridie's kitchen and plonk them in a pub in Sydney or Melbourne, if the 3 of them were playing the same set together, they would *not* play *any* differently if there were other people in the pub. The only issue might be if there were distractions of some sort to take their minds off what they're doing. To them, it doesn't matter who's there listening or not listening, or taking pictures of them with a camera, or making a video of them.
But you take Ado out of Bridie's kitchen and put him on stage with Katiebee and the other people from his band, now *that's* a performance.
A performance has to come from a performer, not from any perceived audience. If the person playing tunes doesn't feel some sort of responsibility to an audience, then it's not a performance.
Here's another example. There's a YouTube posting of Simon Thoumire playing some tunes for the camera. This is a performance. There's nobody in the room where he's playing, at least nobody that you can see, but he is aware that he is playing for a potential audience who download his posting. That's why he makes an announcement before he plays. Now, if you secretly filmed him through a hole in the wall of his house playing concertina alone, that's not a performance right? This 2nd scenario is how Will et al view sessions.
Mark, I've been to a lot of sessions and ours is really no different. But that's not even my point. It's quite simple actually; what the session is to the musicians isn't necessarily the same as it is to the in the pub. We see it as you describe -- they see it as a performance. According to the definition of what a performance is they're correct. According to our definition of what a session is -- we're correct. Who's wrong? Neither. Who's correct? Both.
I think I summed it up best in my response to bb: If a tree falls in the forest, but the loggers don't think they cut it down -- does that mean it didn't fall?
bb, I am concerned that you may be at risk of being mistaken for such a controversial figure as bodhran bliss.
I urge you to immediately change your name for your own safety. You could be called.......you could use the name "starting over"!
I'm sorry the people in your pub think it is a performance, but that doesn't make it one. That's just their misunderstanding of the situation due to their inexperience with sessions. Do you find you get a lot of requests for songs and stuff? This tends to happen when punters have misread the situation and think that the music is there for their benefit.
I've never contested that, Mark. I have no idea what Jack's session is like, and he can make it as much of a performance or not as he likes. But I'm not the one characterizing Jack's session. He's said plenty about mine, however, as though he's been there.
It's not what Jack wants a session to be that I've argued against here, but his insistence that my session and others can't be anything but a performance. In my understanding, he's missing some essential differences--the same differences that other people have highlighted to me about their sessions vs. more gig-like approaches to the music.
And I really don't care whether Jack gets this or not. But it does strike me as rude and insensitive that he persists in telling people here that their sessions must be performances, even though several people have tried to explain the differences to him and put him on notice that his relentless insistence on this rude. A bit like Michael's crusade against bodhran players (but at least Michael gives a well reasoned stance for his point of view).
And when Jack stoops to ridiculing my posts instead of addressing the reasoned points in them, it makes civil dialogue difficult if not impossible. I eman, this is a guy who once, rather than respond substantively to my post, told me to go make love to my wife. What's the point in trying to reason with that? And why is this repeated ugly behavior tolerated?
Sorry... I left out the word "punters" in this line: "what the session is to the musicians isn't necessarily the same as it is to the [ punters ] in the pub"
As far as I understand it Jack, you're saying that *you* don't think that the playing you do in your session is a performance, but that the punters *do* think it's a performance. This logically means that the punters don't understand what's going on, which is understandable; you're in San Fransisco. So maybe it's up to you to educate them and involve them more so that they *do* understand what you're doing. That's assuming you care, of course. But then, if you care what they think, then that means you feel some responsibility towards them, which means that you *are* performing for them. Thus bringing us back in a full circle. So, what do you think?
Will writes: "He's said plenty about mine, however, as though he's been there." This is a lie... I never said I knew what Will's sessions were like. Even in this thread I said, "I have yet to visit the pub where you hold yours." Why Will is resorting to lying now is anyone's guess.
Mark... as I told bb: I don't care what the punters think. My point is simply that they believe their seeing a performance. For them it IS a performance... even if we don't think so and don't care. For us it's a session... not a performance. simple as that.
Will, I why does it bother you what Jack thinks about your session? You know yourself that his assumptions are off the mark, so isn't that enough? If he's going to sessions in Ireland and experiencing them all as "performances" like gigs, then all his musical experiences, whether at a gig or session, are going to be of "performances". Therefore he misses out on the feeling we get when we go to sessions such as your own. That's his loss, not yours.
"My point is simply that they believe their seeing a performance. For them it IS a performance... even if we don't think so and don't care. For us it's a session... not a performance. simple as that."
But even if the punters think it's a performance doesn't make it one unless the musicians also see it that way.
It's like a magicians trick. The people watching might think they are seeing something like a person getting cut in half, but just because that's how they perceive it doesn't make it actually so. The magician knows this.
"If a tree falls in the forest, but the loggers don't think they cut it down, does this mean the tree didn't fall?"
See, I can't tell if Jack thinks he's being logical here, or if he's misrepresenting his "opponents'" position just to make his own look good.
And it's nonsensical. Of course it doesn't mean the tree didn't fall. But neither does it mean the loggers in fact cut the tree down. If the loggers never laid a blade to that tree, then obviously it fell for other reasons.
The only difference with the magic trick is that people would know from their own common sense and experiences in life they couldn't possibly be witnessing someone being cut in half. With sessions on the other hand, most people would not have experience of session culture unless they've played the music themselves, especially in somewhere like SF, so any conclusion they come to about what they are seeing will be flawed due to their ignorance. Therefore I conclude that Will has managed to educate his punters to an extent, whereas your punters don't know what the feck is going on and think it's probably just a gig. You seem to be happy with that, so endov.
In this thread above, Will wrote: "Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them."
Jack wrote: "Sure, Will, but your session isn't always like that... maybe only when you want to make a point."
How would you know what my session is like?
And then you accuse me of lying? Nice. How civil of you.
Mark... I'll say it again. I never made assumptions or claimed to know anything about Will's sessions. If you think I did -- please point it out.
Mark writes: "It's like a magicians trick. The people watching might think they are seeing something like a person getting cut in half, but just because that's how they perceive it doesn't make it actually so. The magician knows this."
So your position is that a session is like a magic trick? And you think I'm not making sense? Cop on!
Will has described his session differently in other threads. He has described it as a wonderful musical event in other threads -- I never doubted this. In this thread however it sounds like a different affair all together where people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies.
I never said chatting, cookies, and half playing tunes detracted from making wonderful music. In a nutshell, that's the aspect of a good session (which isn't a performance) that Jack seems not to understand, and is apparently unwilling to admit exists, except in the minds of self-deluded session musicians.
Wrong... Mark. I was referring to the way Will described his own session. I never claimed to know the slightest thing about his session and you know it.
Will wrote earlier about his session: "Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them."
And PB, you go on to say "Sure, Will, but your session isn't always like that... maybe only when you want to make a point", and you infer from it that "people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies"
So what you're saying is that we're not arguing about sessions as performances at all. This is personal, and it has to do with your misinterpretation of Will's posts about his own session, and Will's frustration at your misunderstanding. Ah, okay, then I can go now. I see that this isn't actually a discussion at all, then.
Update on my philosophical allegory: If loggers cut down a tree and it falls, but the loggers don't think they cut it down, does this mean the tree didn't fall?
Mark, I'm trying to avoid an argument with Will. I stopped talking directly to him after he started with the ad hominem back there. I'm simply trying to get across my point regarding sessions and what they are to the public when you hold them in public places. That's all.
Still mis-stating the argument. A more accurate metaphor might look like this:
"If loggers cut down a tree in the forest to make fence posts out of it, but a nearby cabin owner thinks it's for his firewood, who's on the short end of the stick when the loggers haul the tree off to the mill and make fence posts?"
Jack, you are saying that the loggers must have cut down the tree just because that person from the environmental group accused them of it. Dude, I hope you never get called up for jury duty
My very next post implicity acknowledged this by showing how you made assumptions based on that text. Okay, now I know you're not listening. Blah blah blah, with your fingers in your ears.
Mark writes: "you infer from it that "people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies""
Will writes: "drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends."
Well, I would never assume from what Will said that people are only half playing tunes. I would assume that when they lauch into sets (his words) they play them in full. The chatting and eating cookies I think you got right. Same at our session, but without the cookies. We've never had any of our punters buy us cookies, or "biscuits" as we call them.
Will said "noodling misremembered tunes halfway through"
For me this does *not* equate to "people only half playing tunes".
I would infer from this that, because it is not a performance like a gig, people at the session would feel free to pick out a tune between sets so that they can remember it properly to play later, or maybe they are turning to the person next to them and saying "do you play this one" "oh yesion before, so this is my assumption. Am I right, Will?ah, I know that" "I can't remember the 2nd part, how does it go?" "isn't it this?" "no that's the corner house I know that one - oh I know it's this" [launches into set].
I've never been to Will's session so this is my assumption. Am I right, Will?
would infer from this that, because it is not a performance like a gig, people at the session would feel free to pick out a tune between sets so that they can remember it properly to play later, or maybe they are turning to the person next to them and saying "do you play this one" "oh yes, I know that" "I can't remember the 2nd part, how does it go?" "isn't it this?" "no that's the corner house I know that one - oh I know it's this" [launches into set].
Another interpretation is that Will starts a tune and suddenly realises halfway through the B-part that there's a turn in it he can't remember, so he plays something that will do so that the tune hangs together.
Of course this would be unthinkable in your session, Jack, right? How dare he play a wrong note
Eh? Will is disputing with his own description of his session. Did some posts of Will's get wiped or something? Jeez, this is really confusing. Who would have thought a discussion between 3 people could be so confusing. I've had this before but only when I've been talking to someone in like Vietnam or somewhere where my addressee speaks a language I don't understand.
Well, the noodling takes different forms. Yes, as my senior moments start melting together into a constant stream, I sometimes noodle the B part of a tune before actually starting it, to fend of that unpleasantness of soaring into the A part, only to come up blank at the turn.
But sometimes, when my friends are talking, drinking, eating cookies, whatever, I noodle on parts of tunes that come to mind. Mind you, I'm most often chatting, drinking, and gnoshing too. But sometimes a tune I haven't thought of in ages pops into my head, and I'll quietly tickle it a bit to see if I could do it justice at some later point in the evening. Obviously, this isn't a habit I take to my gigs--I don't think an "audience" would appreciate or even understand such behavior. At our session, however, nobody in the room bats an eye.
There are numerous "sessions" in pubs where a group of musicians sit in a corner, or side room, and play music for their own enjoyment, totally oblivious to the other people in the pub. This happens all over the world. It is not my cup of tea, but that is a personal preference.
However the other people in the pub cannot reach this state of "separation" and are likely to see the musical proceedings as a performance. Nothing too difficult about that. One man's ceiling is another man's floor, and all that.
I remember playing at a session in Dublin, where the musicians were "removed" from the crowd. The crowd however had travelled from all over Dublin to go to that pub, because "there is a session". However not one of them showed any interest in the proceedings, and talked and drank all night without appearing to listen. Next day however, when questioned, they are likely to say that the music was "mighty". It is simply human nature.
However when half of the world are starving, despite a surplus of food, and the wealthy half are trying to kill each other, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.
Don't pity us Will, his is the best thing I've ever read for ages. It reminds me of that painting by Goya of the two giants mired up to their waists, belabouring each other with clubs.
Hahaha I almost wrote a post to correct Bodhran Bliss and explain my point of view, but then I suddenly remembered that I don't need to because there's no point because he's a bodhran player. Hehe, lets me off the hook.
Dose anyone know the names of any sites where i can have a proper discussion and avoid bliss and the rest of the limited clowns who f**ked up this one.
Dose anyone like bodhrans
Dose anyone like bodhrans
What style of bodhran playing do you like and why?
I think Colm Murphy is the king because he adds to the music in a dynamic way,Ringo is solid and keeps it simple and John joe dose his own thing but he still holds a beat.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
May I add at this point that many of the derogatory comments relating to bodhran playing which will most likely follow in this thread are to be taken with several pinches of salt. I like John Joe Kelly's playing aswell. I heard a recording just minutes ago of Francis McIlduff of Belfast (more famous for excellent pipng and low whistling) playing the bodhran at first light. He is barely mentioned in the same breath as John Joe Kelly, Ringo, Junior Davey etc, but his bodhran playing is first class.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Sinocal
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Not literally at first light, as in early in the morning, but with the band At First Light.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Sinocal
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yep, Francis Is a super player,not usually regarded as a bodhrán player.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by t byrne
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I must check out Francis. Im not a fan of Junior his a bit too busy for me i like solid playing.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I love bodhrans....the only problem that I see in most music is that they are not loud enough. The pitter pat pitter pat in the back ground just is not enough to get my blood pumping.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Hawthorn
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Hello Hawthron
Check out Conal o Grada "Top of Croom" for flute acc. by my favorite Colm on bodhran. I agree pitter pat pitter pat is more anoying than anything .
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
sorry hawthorn
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Have you ever sat next to a VERY loud bodhran in a session? I have, in a session in An Teach Beag in Clonakilty in August this year. I couldn't hear myself play, let alone the whistle player on my right, or anyone else in the session for that matter. The middle-aged bodhranist on my left studiously ignored all attempts to get him to quieten down, and ten minutes after I joined the session the leader lost patience, reached across me with his foot and kicked the rim of the bodhran, making it perfectly clear that it and its owner were surplus to requirements. Our man got the message and immediately packed up and left. A rare case of someone literally being kicked out of a session!
Generally, I enjoy bodhrans in sessions here in Bristol. There are usually one or two in a session - one of them frequently being an excellent player from Norn Iron (hi, Jenny!) - and the playing in my experience only adds to the quality of the session.
I was told once about a summer school in Ireland where in one of the beginners fiddle classes the tutor was having a problem trying to get one or two pupils to loosen up their very stiff bowing wrist and hand. So he sent them along the corridor to a bodhran class for an hour's tuition. Problem solved.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
The bodhrans at our session have driven away good players so we've attempted to solve the problem by requesting that only one of them play at a time. They seem to be a bit thick though, and when the craic gets going, they can't contain themselves, and they all (three or four) jump in and drown things out. They've been spoken to politely, yelled at, and shunned, but like I said, they're thick. I'm fairly new on the session scene, but my experience is that good drummers are rare. I suspect that any drummer who is a veteran of this board is good because they are interested enough in the music to really be part of it as contributors, not simply to hang out, drink the beer, and pretend to be "musicians".
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by jtrout
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Donnchadh Gough, John Joe Kelly and Tristan Rosenstock are all superb and unique players. My favorite player, however, has got to be Sean McCann of Great Big Sea, a fantastically popular band from Newfoundland that plays both traditional and original songs and tunes. His playing is not flashy, but it not only keeps the beat but, rather than adding to the music, it is the music. No one but Sean McCann, so far as I can see, has the ability to make the bodhran the core of the music, the central part that everything revolves around. That deserves merit.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
By the way, when I say 'popular', I mean to say that I'm surprised and impressed that a group that has remained so true to its traditonal roots has managed to get national-if not worldwide-acclaim and popularity. I realized that the wording could be misinterpreted.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Zazzaliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I think I hear Bodhran Bliss coming. (hand to ear)
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"has the ability to make the bodhran the core of the music, the central part that everything revolves around. That deserves merit."
Oh dear. Llig where are you?
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I once had the pleasure to be accompanied by Seamus O'Kane. He's definitely my favourite player.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by slainte
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
fear not, I'm here...
"has the ability to make the bodhran the core of the music, the central part that everything revolves around."
Oh dear, and all too often, the eedjit banging the drum is so useless at listening that everyone else has to just play along with them.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9423
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I love the kind of flat playing continuously insisting on the basses. There's a bodhrán player called Niall McQuaid I think, in Galway, he plays this way. hes the guy playing the bidhrán in Galway postcards
It's a very unassuming style, but I find it very up to the point.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by nutsmuggler
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Just to second what has already been said about Fra McIlduff; he is a class bodhrán player and he certainly taught me a lot. He and his brother are great percussionists, althought they are both primarily known for their virtuosity on the pipes. In my opinion it's a great asset if you can play another instrument; you can appreciate the music and how it should be accompanied much more. No surprise that JJ Kelly plays a schneaky mandolin.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Bodhran players can add , rather than detract, IF played within the players skill limits. e.g. even a beginner , if playing simply, and not too loudly, by tapping out the beat (in strict time of course) can 'set the pulse' of the music. A skilled player can add much more of course - see this video of John Jo in a recent session in County Clare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWXUEiFKUQ8
(poor video quality -but great playing). This clip was during a particularly exhuberant few minutes - but as a 'proper musician' he also knows when to hold back - or stop playing altogether.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Col Arco
Re: DOSE anyone? ~ like bodhrans
Dose = amount of medicine or poison administered at any one time ~ a measure of concentration varying from pleasurable to bearable to toxic ~ depending on the method of delivery can also result in extensive bruising and pain...
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Thank you ceolachan. Bad bodhran playing can be like a dose of the cl#p. Does anyone like Bodhrans? In the hands of a skilled musician they,like any instrument, can be fantastic. However, in the hands of a novice, they are usually truly destructive to the music. So yes, I love a well played bodhran......Such a pity it'e such a rare beast.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by woops
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Woops, "It's"....Case of the pot calling the kettle black.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by woops
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
When Trouble in the Kitchen let Benno loose on a bodhran solo it's amazing. I guess it's because when he isn't playing the bodhran he's on the flute or the guitar that he knows how to get it just right! Oh....and Gino Lupari is pretty amazing too!
I guess it's like any instrument - there are those who are amazing, there are those who just think they are amazing, and there are those who are pretty awful! (the good, the bad and the ugly!)
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
That vid above left me stone cold.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
No, it's not like any other instrument. Even if you are really really good, all you are doing is repeating what the tune does, but without the notes.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Thanks to those who replied to the question and for the rest of you , bad fiddle playing,bad banjo playing or anything else played badly can ruin a session.There seems to be alot of musicans who don t like bodhrans full stop. But i have reliased that the good musicans know what a bodhran has to offer.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Michael, do you mean that literally? That a well-played bodhran just repeats what the tune does w/o notes? I don't know that I'd agree with that.
Still, I suppose, that's kinda-sorta what happens, and it explains -- at least to me -- why the bodhran is so unpopular. I like the effect, which happens in, say, symphonic work, by creating a whole new tone out of each note. But it's only really pleasing as a special effect, I'd say. A little bit goes a long way, which is probably why bands like the Bothy Band used it so sparingly. But in a session, having that sound occurring tune after tune is tedious, in my opinion.
That's another reason why multi-instrumentalists who bang the drum can do so well -- not only because they likely have greater sensitivity to the tune but because they occasionally don't play drum.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by cuchulain54
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Punters love them, to answer the question, which causes much jealousy among "hierarchy" melody players.
Anyone with ears adjusts to the level at which it needs played, because a pitter patter bodhran at a full session is a waste of time.
For example, I was at a session the other week, one flute player and me, so I played by hand rather than stick. That is commonsense.
There are many fine exponents of the bodhran, all capable of enlivening and adding to a session.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
............Ilig Leahcim, in the green shorts. And in this corner, bodhran bliss, wearing red shorts and waving a matching red rag. Now I want a clean fight with no.......
Actually, all of the above is true at different times. What else is new?
We have a local tuba player who knows how much to play, and when not to play. In anyone else's hands.......
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
It's just a drum for feck's sake.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Just noticed someone says John Joe Whatever plays the mandolin. He will turn up on TV in that "Stars in their Eyes" programme some week as me.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mr Bliss's answer, "the punters love 'em", should be over on the Bruce's/Starting Over's diatribe of a thread.
I think the bodhran can have a very effective place in a performance setting or a recording. Donal Lunny is my favourite. But to say the punter's love 'em in a session setting shows up a particularly irritating arrogance. That of wishing to transform a session into a performance. And If you could find a session melody player who would be jealous of then, then that would be one tune player I'd rather not play with also.
# Posted on December 6th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Look in the mirror.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"What style of bodhran playing do you like and why?
I think Colm Murphy is the king because he adds to the music in a dynamic way,Ringo is solid and keeps it simple and John joe dose his own thing but he still holds a beat"
Saint, I'm with you there.
Been playing the drum for over 20 years and learned in the (I later found out) "Kerry" style. Friends and relatives said I ought to see Flook so I did. Experimented with "Top End" style for a while (see JJK clip above) but Kerry style felt more natural to me and fits into the sessions I play in.
Saw Flook recently and JJK was playing mostly Kerry style apart from the tracks where Top End was part of the arrangement.
I agree with most of the above comments, apart from the silly ones. But they're to be expected.
\())
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by greenman
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Bliss, just to clear this up, do you consider sessions performances?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Cieran Boyle plays best Bodhran in my humble opinion...He Plays with Idle Road.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Dave_
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
No, but the punters do.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
that's interesting then. So do we agree? Do we agree that your statement, "the punters love 'em", while undoubtedly true, is, to the session playing musician, irrelevant?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ahhh... the crux of the infamous "sessions ARE public performances" thread in two posts.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Sorry, I thought my post would follow Blisster's.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
MG writes: "Bliss, just to clear this up, do you consider sessions performances?"
Blissters writes: "No, but the punters do."
Two posts = the crux
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Thanks for the JJ clip its a pitty there is not more clips like this around.I just listened to Teada s new cd and the playing is excellent .I think Tristan has got it spot on .
Can bodhran bliss actually answer the question instead of talking sh*t.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
PB, I think "irrelevant" is the operative word here. The point against which you argued at length--"to the session playing musician" any notion of performance is irrelevant.
And in my neck of the woods, some of the punters (i.e., non-playing participants) get it, too.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will, some of the punters in our local get it too, but I'm not as quick to write off everyone in the room who doesn't "get it" as "irrelevant." It’s my opinion that we live in a world of people, and when we go out in public we are among them – but not above them.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
As quick as whom? I don't write them off as irrelevant either, Mr. Twister. But I don't care a whit about whether they think I'm performing or not.
Besides, way I hear it, you *do* in fact tower above most people.
Me, I'm talling sitting down than when I stand up (short legs, long waist).
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Er, "taller."
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yes they are a dose
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Red Robin
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
No one has mentioned Jim Higgins or Siobhan O'Donnell. Both understated players who use tone and no pyrotechnics although they are capable of it. I still go back to Ringo who I had lessons with this year on Inis Oirr.
Jeremy.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Tassiebodhran
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Saint, you tried to ask "does anyone like bodhrans?". I answered "punters do".
What part of that can you not understand?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And musicians playing in public become a public performance, no matter how they try to hide it.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And BT are still messing around with broadband, affecting my computer. It is a pity I do not need to practice, because I have nothing to do.
And who is Colm Murphy? Just proves there are lots of good players, I haven't heard of many on this thread, and I suppose some of them do not know me.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
So, to re-cap:
1. You do not consider sessions performances.
2. Punters do consider sessions performances.
3. Punters like the bodhran.
4. You play the bodran.
There are only two ways you can reconcile this apparent contradiction. Either:
a. no matter how hard you try, you just can't stop yourself from performing.
b. No matter how many times a musician might say to you that they are not performing, you don't believe them.
Is this accurate?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yep, this persistence in logging onto a site about sessions and telling us we're public performers reminds me of the habits of a certain Canadian keyboardist who was roundly berated (by some of the same people) for being undable to tell the difference between a session and a performance. Weird, really.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Just like a drum can be beaten to death, so can a discussion like "are sessions a performance?".
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Blissters wrote: "And musicians playing in public become a public performance, no matter how they try to hide it."
Or how much they try to deny it.
I think they should hand out flyers at their sessions explaining to the public that there's no performance of anything going on like that and people should just pretend there are no musicians in the room and ignore any music they might happen to hear.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ahhh, there's the old Jack. Beginning to think someone had hijacked your nomde guerre....
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Correct Michael. But then,why should I deny the world............
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And I commend your stance Jack. Visions of "what are you clapping for you ######ers, we are not here" spring readily to mind.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
The funny thing to me, Will, is that you and I agree completely on the perspective of the session musician. Our only stumbling block is the difference regarding the punters perspective. I will never be comfortable going into an environment that includes non musicians and pretend that they aren't there, or to ignore them if they try to express appreciation for what we're doing. I don't want to grill them and find out if they understand the session from my perspective before I thank them, and I don't want to ignore them, but to them it's a performance. So what's the big deal? So what!
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
You assume too much, Jack. I don't ignore them, but we do gradually help most of the regulars understand the differences between a session and a performance. It's called communication, craic even. I'm not sure why you keep jumping to the conclusion that I ignore people or treat them with hostility. Imagining that you know how I behave or think in a session stikes me as strange, eh?
Some of the best craic we've had is joking with newcomers about how an Irish session works. Laura and Gail come to mind. Neither plays the music, but they come almost every week, sit close, and visit with us between sets, very much part of the circle. They've learned to "show appreciation" (if that's what it is) by buying a round instead of clapping.
One way to understand the differences might be to compare thesession.org with this site: http://www.performances.org/. Right in your neighborhood, too, PB.
Really, to me, insisting on this separation of musicians and "audience" misses a huge part of the magic of a good session. And misses the point and spirit of this site as well.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
So how long does it take before the punters understand that you're not giving a "performance"? As for clapping; I clap too if I think someone played a tune particularly well. (I do this on tunes I'm not playing) Am I not getting it? There are also a few folks (non musicians) who regularly show up to enjoy the music, buy us rounds, etc., but they'll clap now and then for the same reason. I'm curious now... do you instruct people not to clap? Did you tell Laura and Gail not to clap? How did they come to avoiding it?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Clapping in and of itself isn't much of a bother. But it can get in the way. Sometimes a punter will start clapping, thinking the set has ended, but just because all of the louder instruments stopped doesn't mean that our lone mandolinist or a more tentative player isn't taking the opportunity to continue on a tune s/he wants to play and keep the set going. I've also noticed that clapping encourages the musicians to start pandering to the "audience," or hike up their anxiety levels because they're suddenly aware that they're "performing." Both indicate a shift in attention and attitude that can kill the intimacy of a cozy session.
We consciously do a few things to encourage participation in ways other than clapping. If a particularly rousing set gets them clapping, I've been known to tell the punters (with a big smile on my face), "No need for applause--it only encourages us!" Also, clappers quickly suss things out if they start clapping, thinking the set has ended, but we launch right into another tune. If one of the musicians later says, with a chuckle, "Help! Stop me before I diddle again!" or "Ha! We fooled 'em that time!" it takes the possible embarrassment away, but they still get the idea. In other words, we find little openings to draw people into our circle with humor and direct communication.
I've lost count of how many times someone new to the session experience has come up to me afterwards and commented on how refreshing it is to enjoy music played for its own sake.
Laura and Gail introduced themselves early on and started asking questions about how our session works. We lied to them mercilessly, but they figured it out anyway.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Oh, and for some reason everybody always claps after a song, and we don't discourage that at all.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Point being that we don't have a rule against it, but we prefer to create an environment where people can engage without assuming that we're playing music for their attention or even benefit. They're free to sit and listen, join in, whatever. But they're also free to sit nearby, eat a meal, and have a conversation about the latest episode of Survivor.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
whoosis, Since singers tend to be more prone to vanity than instrumentalists, it is good that you folks clap for them to prevent hurt feelings!
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Heh, you said it, Al, not me.
Actually, I think what happens is that the lyrics beg people's attention. Songs tell stories, and we all instinctively respond to that, like sunflowers turning to the light. Instrumentals don't "mean" anything, don't require a casual listener to decode any message.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Um, so there's less need for a social way to mark the end of a string of diddly than for a song.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Your conduct doesn't sound any different than what happens here, but there are always people in the pub who want to show their appreciation regardless. To them we can only assume that they believe we are in the act of performing our skills on our chosen instruments for everyone's appreciation (including ourselves) and they just want to acknowledge it.
After they thought we were done only to find out we were still going a few times, they lose interest and settle into their conversation or whatever. Others who are more interested will eventually learn that it doesn't necessarily mean the "set" has ended and they'll wait to make certain if they intend to clap. Others still might have gotten the idea (as Laura and Gail did) that clapping isn't necessary even though they might be enjoying and appreciating the result of how we perform our musical skills.
And as you said: the singers get applause from everyone. But does that mean that part of the session is a performance and the rest isn't? Why even try to make a distinction? Why does the word "performance" cause so much controversy? Why can't we acknowledge that we're performing our skills in public but it's not a formal performance? I think even the punters understand that much. It just seems like we're demonizing the word "performance" when there's no need to.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
No one is demonizing anything Jack. There you go again, ascribing attitudes to people whose heads you're not inside.
This conversation is similar in substance to the one with poor Bruce, for whom playing music means performing. I think the barrage from the peanut gallery here made it quite clear that many session musicians and session.org members don't see it that way. And "performance" is a term they'd rather not dwell on. It's a "session." We don't need another word for it.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Does anyone like bodhrans at these sessions/performances?
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will writes: "There you go again, ascribing attitudes to people whose heads you're not inside."
Not exactly -- I said, "we're demonizing the word" not "you're demonizing the word." To exclude the word all together and make it forbidden reminds me a little to much of when people become too PC about certain things... that's my point. I don't think it moves the discussion forward regarding what a session is or isn't. Instead, I think it's useful to acknowledge the word for what it is, what it means to the punter, and then move on.
The difference between the conversation we had with Bruce and this one is that Bruce was unable to separate the word "performance" from "session" the way you and I can. I do think you and I agree on what a session is essentially, where we differ is about the meaning of the word "performance." You seem to want it to be excluded all together even though the meaning of the word describes the act of playing music in public -- like we do at sessions in pubs. Whereas I recognize the perspective and experience from the punter’s point of view to be just as legitimate as our own. We’re all in the pub together.
# Posted on December 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Lol, then demonize away, Jack, but leave me out of it. Maybe you should've written "I'm demonizing...."
Heh, I don't care what word you want to use instead of "session." You can call it an enterprise, function, engagement, production, exhibition, affair, execution, etc. All of them perfectly good synonyms for "performance" (as in "we are now going to execute some tunes on our instruments"). And you can deal with the unfortunate or inappropriate connotations each of those might bring to your session. If you want to talk about sessions like a linguistic semantacist or ESL student, that's your perogative.
But given your stated understanding of how a session differs significantly from a formal performance, I don't see why you'd want to. You can "perform" your tunes to your heart's content...I prefer to play mine, and lower the risk of misleading people into thinking a session is a formal performance (which we both agree it isn't).
Why didn't Jeremy call this site www.theperformance.org?
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Sorry, that should be splattered with smilies like paint on a Pollock canvas. This is hilarious.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I'd like to think I'm not demonizing the word performance, though I can understand people getting that impression. For that I'm sorry.
I like performances, I love a good performer, in the propper setting. I even liked performing myself, though long ago now.
And I agree that the topic seems a bit done to death of late. However, The interesting point about it, for me anyway, is that I think it very neatly defines what a session is (and given the name of this forum, we can't complain about that). Namely, live music without performance. And as soon as a performance element comes into it, it, by definition, is no longer a session.
Of course there are grey areas, like everything. And I've often participated in sessions that for one reason or an other turned into performances. Two grey areas that irritate me though, are 1. when the punters in the pub, usually through simply not knowing what's going on, demand a performance. And 2. when one of the musicians (or drummers) in the company start to play to the crowd.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
A secular amen, to that, Michael.
And I hope Jack can see that I've gone out of my way to describe how I relate positively to the punters and anyone else in the pub (despite his insinuations to the contrary).
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Play = perform
play v
8. to use a musical instrument to produce music
per·form v
3. to present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music or a play to an audience
~~~
When you're in public you have an "audience" whether you like it or not. Granted, we aren't playing to them -- but they're still there and think of themselves as an audience.
So I guess the bottom line is, as MG puts it, when the word "perfomance" comes into it he feels he is no longer participating in a session. This gives the word "performance" too much power in my opinion. If someone in the bar thinks the session is a performance it has absolutely no effect on me. I couldn't care less -- I still enjoy myself regardless, and it has no effect on the session whatsoever.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Jack, can you see the difference in the two definitions you provided. One says nothing about an audience. The other does.
And Michael and I have just given two instances where the "performance" aspect *does* in fact interfere with a good session--(1) when punters demand a performance (insisting that you cater to them, and (2) when musicians start to play to the crowd for their own ego's sake. Both of these can ruin the intimacy of a good session, and they are examples of why your notion of audience is at odds with session craic.
It's not about the word. It's about the concept of dividing the pub crowd into players and audience, and all the attendant pitfalls that can follow. I don't mind an audience at my gigs. But I prefer my sessions with a roomful of participants.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Jack, I concur. If someone in the bar thinks the session is a performance it has absolutely no effect on me either. I still enjoy myself regardless, and it has no effect on the session ... (except, however, when that person claps loudly between tunes and complains when you sit with your back to them, etc).
But the being in public and having an audience thing is not as cut and dried as you state. An example someone came up with earlier was having a conversation in a bar. You are in a public place, so does that give the guy stood next to you the "right" to listen to your conversation? You are in public, and the conversation you are having is tailored accordingly, and if the guy next to you can hear it, so be it. Even if he wants to listen, to eavesdrop, that's OK. But is he "allowed" to laugh outloud at one of your jokes?
I'm not saying people should pretend not to be listening to your music, or that they should refrain from showing appreciation in some subtle manner, just that the polite thing to do is to realise that it's not their conversation. I disagree with Will here, I think there is a divide
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
To me, a session is like a potluck. I don't discriminate against people who didn't bring food or choose not to eat, even if I'm stuffing my pie hole. But it would be a bit odd for me to go to a potluck with the idea that I'm going to eat in front of other people for their entertainment....
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Michael, the rewards of bridging the divide are wonderful. Sessions can be community events--neighbors, craic, and pints.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ah-ha
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ah-ha again. Michael has introduced a third concept, namely playing to the crowd. That is a whole new topic.
Liam Og O'Flynn could perform at the Royal Albert Hall, but he would not "play to the crowd".
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yes, sessions can be community events and they are great. But it's not easy in a town of busy itenerant tourists and rowdy students. I don't mind that I'm going to play music in the same room as them, but would mind if it was for their entertainment.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And yes, ther is a world of difference between performing before admirers and playing to the crowd. But I wonder where banging the bodhran within an intimate group of non-performers because the punters love it fits?
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will writes: "Jack, can you see the difference in the two definitions you provided. One says nothing about an audience. The other does."
Yes, Will, I see the differences, but I also see the similarities. I did address that in that same post. When you "play" an instrument you "use a musical instrument to produce music," but when you play tunes in public you "present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music (tune) or a play to an audience." The audience doesn't think they're "eavesdropping" or at a "potluck" (unless your session is happening at a potluck.) They're enjoying your performance whether or not you think you're giving one. Big deal.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"Big deal."
Hint of sarcasm noted. So if it's not a big deal, why do you keep bringing it up at every chance, on a site about Irish sessions?
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
By "big deal" I meant we needn't be wasting our time on it.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Oh, and quite often the people in the pub at our session don't think they'r at a potluck or a performance. They think they're at this peculiar thing called a "session." And so do we. So that's what we call it.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ours is advertised as such too, but it doesn't change anything for punters that haven't edified themselves about the ethics.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"By "big deal" I meant we needn't be wasting our time on it. "
Yep, but it beats talking about bodhrans....
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"Advertised"
Ouch.
LOL, sorry, couldn't resist.
Jack, is your Grinter keyed? If so, which keys?
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
To tell the truth I play mostly mandolin on our Sunday session, because this is indeed a paid performance, and not a real session. We play a number of tunes, but we are required to "entertain", and would play to/for the crowd to an extent.
At a real session I would play the bodhran. Where that fits in with
"But I wonder where banging the bodhran within an intimate group of non-performers because the punters love it fits" I have no idea as it is a concept that is foreign to me.
Problem is Michael, you always jump to extremes, certainly where bodhrans are concerned.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
If anybody ever even so much as indicates they're listening to the music at our session, we club them to death with a tenor banjo. It's just plain sensible.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by TaoCat
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Seems a shame to put something so soft and padded between a swung banjo and a hard place....
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Between a banjo and a hard place...heh, I like that.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by TaoCat
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
By "advertised" I mean it's listed as such in various calendars around the area.
The Grinter is fully keyed... and so is my bodhran.
I play the bodhran at our session because we seem to have frightened all the other playersl away. (joking) Because I also play flute and concertina it's impossible to play the bodhran too much -- often only once or twice a night at best. But I love to play it, and I love the sound. If another player comes in I usually just leave it in the case. If another concertina or flute player comes I'll play it more often to give them a chance to be the only flute or concertina on a few tunes. If another flute or concertina player is there... and another bodhran player as well... I uh... flirt with the ladies more. If the other flute, concertina, or bodhran player is a ladie I would like to flirt with... I just sit there and listen politely...
... or go for pints.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Perhaps I should have said it brings out the worst in you, Michael, the mere mention of the B word. Your usual humour, and reasoned argument, seems to desert you.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Blissters writes: "To tell the truth..."
Don't change your habits on our account.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Got me.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
The mandolin bit was true, cut down on whistle and blues harp, but find myself increasingly given to playing the guitar and singing.
To put it bluntly, performing, at a session.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
bliss the heading is "dose anyone like bodhrans" look at the ? i think your knowlage of bodhrans is limited and sully is embaressed
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
it all about quailty
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Saint
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Two thoughts: (about sessions/performances)
If a group of individuals sets up in a public place like a restaurant or a bar and has a private conversation at a volume that might intrude on everyone else's enjoyment of that public place, they have a responsibility to be sensitive to those other people's needs. (I'm acutely aware of this, having recently been seated with a group of very loud and obnoxious clients in a beautiful but very reserved and quiet Paris restaurant.) Obviously the punters can't impose topics of conversation on the group, but they can expect them not to use foul language, break out in fistfights, etc. In the same way, the output from a session needs to be "pleasant" in fairness to the other people who share that public space. So it's not a public performance in the audience-versus-stage mold, but it is to the extent that punters have a right to expect quality music.
Why clap for singers and not for tunes? For some reason, our culture sees singers as going out on a limb much more than players of musical instruments. The clapping is usually more to encourage the individual and congratulate them for taking a risk, rather than to compliment them on the song or its performance.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by grego
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
What does the publican expect when s/he invites a session? It would seem to me that it is expected that punters will enjoy it and hence stick around and spend money. At one of the pubs we play at it is required that we will be playing among the punters (paying customers) and not in the more comodious and quiet back room.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by feardearg
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yes, I appologise. My usual humour does escape me when I talk about bodhrans, though not, I hope, my reasoning. But it's hard to reason with someone who glories in "performing, at a session".
Mr Bliss classes himself as a multi insrtumentalist, but the one the thing he does not do is play the tunes that are the backbone of what everyone else here accepts is a session. By his own admission, they bore him. And I don't blame him, it would be boring to simply bang a drum along with them all evening, in the same way that it would be boring to sit at the bar and just listen to them all evening. At the very least, he seems intelligent enough to realise this. Instead, he'd rather perform.
Grego's take on why people clap for songs - to congratulate the risk of it, - is interesting, but i'm not sure it's the whole story. For starters, there tends to be silence from the punters for a song and this is for two reasons which are interdependent. The first - and it was mentioned earlier - is that the narrative that is the words asks, especially to non musicians, for a more structured approach to listening than do instrumentals. The second it that performers are attracted to singing for this reason. Bliss's attitude is a classic description of this.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I'm really beginning to despise these bodhran threads.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by newfie percussionist
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Michael, have you met me? Who said I do not play tunes, who said I glory in performing at a session, who said I do not like tunes?
I perform, musically, for pay. At a session I join in,in a quiet unassuming manner as befits the world's supreme bodhran player. You may find someone as good, or you may prefer someone else, but they will not be better. All a matter of taste.
And my dear Saint, you mention beginners like John Joe Kelly at the start of this thread, and then suggest I know little about bodhrans. Surely a contradiction there somewhere.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I think the singers get the unanimous applause because the cues are so clear. The room gets shushed, everyone's paying attention, the song has a clear beginning and end, etc. And about the applause: depending on how well the singer does the applause are either for the performance or just the relief that it's over.
# Posted on December 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mr Bliss, it's difficult sometimes to clock the difference between bravado and serious comment, which is as it should be of course. I can't be arsed to search the back catalogue for your postings, but, correct me if I'm wrong: I seem to remember you talking about playing O'Carolan tunes on the mandolin, and the lownesome boatman on the whistle, and the blues moothee. And I think I remember you talking about the value of the inclusion variety of stuff because of the tedium of jigs and reels. And I seem to remember you talking about not having the dexterity to play jigs and reels fast enough. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, I don't know you, (though I suspect we would have a bit of a craic if we met). Though you must admit, the statement, "at a session I join in, in a quiet unassuming manner," is a little at odds with you cyberspace persona here.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yes Button, but why does the room get shushed?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Because... unless the room is shushed you can't hear the singer at all. Also, it's impossible to sing if there's noise in a room like that. You can still hear the tunes provided punters aren't screaming at each other or laughing like rabid hyenas. Also, the tunes are continuous throughout the night and the punters don't feel they have to give them undivided attention as they would during a formal concert. Why do you think the room gets shushed?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
That's a brilliant answer mate. Absolutely no sarcasm, I love it.
"The tunes are continuous throughout the night and the punters don't feel they have to give them undivided attention as they would during a formal concert." Perfect.
Why do I think the room gets shushed for a song? The two reasons I mentioned above, inherant narative of words and projected ego of the singer.
This gets to the rub of it and I'm pleased. The whole concept of punters NOT feeling like they owe the tunes undevided attention is the whole basis of the non-performance ethos. It's music that neither asks nor deserves attention from those not participating in its creation.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I agree with you on that llig - I've never once felt that a session was a performance - in any sense of the word - I play in a pub in public because there arent many house sessions going on. And if I want to play with others thats where I have to go.
And for any of you who are interested - 'Tommy Tiernan - sums it up on his live DVD - all about how your almost at that perfect state in a session where the tunes are flying - and someone always comes with a song 'annnndddd eeeeyyye dunnnoooo' - Highly recommended for anyway who just loves and old tune session without songs every second set.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
PS - not saying I dont like songs or singers - I just think there really is a time and a place. And good on the sessions that have an equal number of both tunes and songs - thats great - it just wouldnt be my ideal session.
Okay - I'm bracing myself to get shot down now for expressing an opinion - just like MG did on the 'Our Band' thread. Ducks for cover.....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
thanks beeb
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
But Michael... if you asked those punters how they thought the musicians performed at the pub that night, they might say, "Excellently!" or, "It was pure sh*te!" but I guarantee you they would be very unlikely to say anything like, "Well... it wasn't actually a performance, you see... it was a 'session' -- and sessions aren't 'performances'."
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
bb writes, "I've never once felt that a session was a performance - in any sense of the word - I play in a pub in public because there arent many house sessions going on. And if I want to play with others thats where I have to go."
Of course, bb, but what do the punters there think you're doing? I'm sure they enjoy listening and watching you perfoming your skills on the fiddle. I can see it now...
1st person to 2nd: Gosh... she performed that tune beautifully! Don't you think?
2nd person: No... she wasn't performing you eejit... it's a session, and people aren't performing -- they're just wiggling their fingers around on instruments. Geesh... goes to show what you know.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
a lot of folk have mentioned great bodhran players on record or on stage, but how many can say with their hand on their heart that they'd like one sitting next to them in a session, unless they could be sure it was a sensitive genius like bbliss ?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Bren
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Thank you Bren.
And Michael, fair enough I am crap on the mandolin, but is a Carolan tune a tune?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
.. if a mandolin plays in a forest of bodhrans, does it make a sound ...?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Bren
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yep mr button, good posting, to the crux again, quite right.
But the question is a misnomer.
It would be like asking a horticulturist how beautiful a flower was. they'd say "lovely", of course. But I guarantee you they would be very unlikely to say anything like, "Well actually, the flower is just an abstract shape to attract insects to aid pollination."
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And Michael, I just know we would get on. As long as you can play.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
play what? music?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Now I understand that ITM sessioners have they're own language and words that mean one thing to the rest of the world have a different meaning among sessioners, but punters aren't necessarily privy to the code. Let's look again at the meaning as it appears in the dictionary.
per·form v
3. to present or enact an artistic work such as a piece of music (tune) or a play to an audience (punters)
Now I realize we aren't playing to the audience, but they're there, and some of them are listening, and that makes an audience.
audience
1. a group of people who are watching and listening to a show, concert, or other live performance (other meaning session)
Since the dictionary has already defined that to perform is the playing of tunes on an instrument, then the punters in the pub who are listening become the audience that makes the event a "performance.” These are just the facts according to anyone who doesn't know or understand the ITM sessioner's secret code. Sessioners avoid the term "performance" because they don't like the connotation, and I understand that, but the rest of the world still goes by the English language according to the dictionary when they try to perceive what's happening at the pub during a session.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Informal performance
I really don't know how to make it any more clear than my prior post. I think the best way to describe what a session might seem like to punters, or what punters believe they are witnessing, is more or less an "informal performance." If punters are interested enough to want to get inside our heads they might realize the shortcomings of that definition, but few will bother. A vast majority will go away thinking that's what they saw -- an "informal performance" of Irish music.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yep, the phenomena of having to use language that exists in a more subtle way than is described in a dictionary.
How else do you think dictionaries evolve?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"bbliss" is perhaps getting too close to "bb". For the sake of clarity, and to confer suitable respect, I propose that the name Bodhran Bliss be used, which could be shortened to BB.
Clapping at the end of a song. Heeuuuch! or Yeeeeehaaaa! at the end of a tune. No admiration implied. OK?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Yes, good again, "few will bother". And the vast majority will consider it an "informal performance".
But the onus is on the musiician not to bother
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And musicians don't need to bother. But that doesn't change the facts.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I was warned about on-line flirting Michael.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Well, real-world use of words doesn't come from the dictionary. It's the other way 'round--dictionary definitions are taken from real-world usage. Unfortunately, they too often come from formal written sources, rather than straight forward street vernacular. So most native speakers of a language don't go around citing dictionary definitions and taking them so literally. Thank heavens we don't all go around talking like dictionary definitions....
Words take most of their meaning from context. Take them out of context--or USE THEM IN THE WRONG CONTEXT--and you create confusion and misunderstandings.
Our sessions are so unlike performances that it would strike me as odd if anyone described one as any kind of performance, informal or otherwise. If the punter's in Jack's scenario were commenting on our session, the conversation would much more likely go as follies:
Punter Bob: "Not bad for a bunch of drunks. That one in the corner can really play."
Punter Joe: "Yeah, every now and then they'd all get in the same groove--imagine if they actually practiced!"
Punter Bob: "Well, I suppose that's the difference between a band gig and whatever this is. What'd the bartender call it--a session?"
Punter Joe: "Yep, just like the one's I saw on vacation over in Galway. 'Cept the Guinness is better over there."
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Come to think of it, it would also be really strange if the people in the pub thought of themselves as an audience. Most of them aren't really listening--they're eating, drinking, talking, reading, watching telly in the back, or throwing darts. Not at all typical of audience behavior I've seen at "performances."
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ask Joe or Bob what they thought of the performance and they'll answer that in a similar way as well. And I bet they won't correct you on the use of the word either. You'd have to explain it to them first before they'd even notice.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I disagree. No doubt San Francisco has some "performance artists" who abuse their audiences by ignoring them while they juggle cabbages or pose mannequins on stage and it's considered not just a performance but high art.
Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
First thing you insist on when you go into a pub to play, is to turn the TV off. If you want to watch TV, stay at home.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I've tried to get people to refer to BBliss as BB and not 'bb' - it doesnt work - and now people tend to call me beebs
BB = Bodhran Bliss the talented and if I say extremely modest Bodhran player. bb = Beebs - the one who has taste in tunes
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Seriously. If you asked Joe or Bob what they thought of the "performance," I think they'd laugh and tell us to keep our day jobs.
The regular punters get it, of course. And many of the irregulars get it, too, because they've come to an Irish pub, so the whole concept of a session--as we understand it in all of its differences from a formal performance--fits their expectations.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Sure, Will, but your session isn't always like that... maybe only when you want to make a point.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Bliss, here they just turn the sound off so those who want to can watch the game. We did play in a pub where the manager kept turning the sound back on (and up)--didn't take long for us to find friendlier quarters.
Geez, I have no trouble keeping beebs and bliss apart--haven't you seen a pic of beebs?! No mistaking her for a hirsute goat thumper.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Ok, Will, in that pub at your session EVERYONE GETS IT. Happy?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Actually, it's almost always like that.
Funny, so are most of the sessions I've been to elsewhere. Seems like most sessions go out of their way to find a pub with a side room or snug big enough for the players, off a bit from the usual bar crowd. And I've played in brilliant sessions with big names where between every set some lout of a punter was yelling at us to stop or leave. I've overheard punters call a session a "private party."
Jack, I'm starting to worry that you might not really understand just how casual and nearly invisible a session can be. They are so unlike any kind of performance, in intent, appearance, vibe, etc.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Happy? Yes, thank you. Sitting here cheerfully thinking about the fun I have at sessions. I thought we were just chatting about this again, since you and Michael and Bliss rekindled the topic.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Gotta run--dinner calls.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Well, I happy for you too, but unless a news bulletin goes out to the general public and English professors around the world are updated concerning this new exclusion for the meaning, most punters are still going to be going by the dictionary definition for what it means if people are playing music in a public place. I’ve been to a fair amount of pubs where sessions are in progress and the punters give every indication that they believe what’s going on is an informal performance of some sort regardless of what the musicians think of what they're doing. I have yet to visit the pub where you hold yours; it would be interesting to see these edified punters of yours.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Aiiieee - cant you guys argue about something worthwhile - like
* Is BBliss the Best Bodhran player ever in the world - or is he the Best Bodhran player ever in eternity
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
My nickname is "Carlsberg".
And I agree with Jack.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Okay -but dont you agree that it is neither here nor there if the punters think themselves as an 'audience' and think that we are 'performing'? I mean really - who cares what they think? unless you are getting paid to do it and even when I get paid to do it I could care less if there are people there listening or not.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Wow, these dictionaries are powerful books, I guess. Let's see, what does Merriam-Webster have to say about Jack?
n: 1: a man, laborer (e.g., lumberjack), or sailor
2: any of various usually mechanical devices: as a : a device for turning a spit b : a usually portable mechanism or device for exerting pressure or lifting a heavy body a short distance
3 : something that supports or holds in position: as a : an iron bar at a topgallant masthead to support a royal mast and spread the royal shrouds b : a wooden brace fastened behind a scenic unit in a stage set to prop it up
4 a : any of several fishes; especially : any of various carangids b : a male donkey c : JACKRABBIT d : any of several birds (as a jackdaw)
5 a : a small white target ball in lawn bowling b : a small national flag flown by a ship c (1) plural but singular in construction : a game played with a set of small objects that are tossed, caught, and moved in various figures (2) : a small 6-pointed metal object used in the game of jacks
6 a : a playing card carrying the figure of a soldier or servant and ranking usually below the queen b : JACKPOT 1a(2)
7 slang : MONEY
8 : a female fitting in an electric circuit used with a plug to make a connection with another circuit
Yer right, Jack, the dictionary has certainly clarified things for me. I now have a much more complete picture of who you must be.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Beebs, that's too easy. We have it on Bliss's own word that he is the best bodhran player the universe has or will ever know. Others may be as good, but none better.
Which, come to think of it, also applies well to, say, a stone dug out of a field. Others may be as good a stone, but none better.
Remember: we are each of us unique...just like everyone else.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I love it -- Will's refuting the dictionary to support his argument. Brilliant!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
bb writes: "Okay -but dont you agree that it is neither here nor there if the punters think themselves as an 'audience' and think that we are 'performing'? I mean really - who cares what they think?"
I don't care what they think we're doing either, bb. But I don't think we're above them; their experience is just as valid as ours. To us it's a session... to them it's an informal performance. Who's right and who's wrong is irrelevant, but for all intents and purposes -- both are right. You can educate the punters about what you're doing the way Will has in his pub, but that won't change the facts. The only difference will be in the definition.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I dont think we are above them at all. I just dont care if they are there or not, it doesnt bother me, unless they are noisy, and annoying and start singing the 'fields of Athenry' - then I have to tell them to feck off.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bb
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Sigh. Jack, there you go reading what you want into my posts instead of what they really say, and getting all condescending and sarcastic. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, you take it down to the level of a junior high playgorund argument. Not a flattering position to take.
We've been through this before. For the sake of anyone else reading this (since you apparently refuse to comprehend it): words derive meaning from the context in which they're used, not from a dictionary. Dictionaries merely document commonly assigned meanings. Lots of words have more than one meaning, sometimes even meaning the opposite of one another. (E.g., depending on who's saying it and under what circumstances, f**k can mean either "let's make love" or "I'm gonna kill you.") So the fact that "performance" can mean "to execute a skill" or "musical or theatrical entertainment for an audience" doesn't mean both of those definitions necessarily apply to the same real-world phenomenon. Love making would become prohibitively risky if we typically misunderstood each other so drastically....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And I'm tired of looking like a fool for debating with someone so intent on the "correctness" of their position that they no longer make sense. Ciao.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I agree with Whoosis.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will, it's disappointing that you feel it necessary resort to ad hominem. I have not described you with words like "condescending" and "sarcastic" nor have I compared your discussion abilities to a "junior high playground argument." I refuse to engage any further if you insist on insulting me in this manner. Thanks for the discussion thus far, but I won't respond to your future posts unless your attitude and language improve.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
bb writes: "I dont think we are above them at all. I just dont care if they are there or not, it doesnt bother me, unless they are noisy, and annoying and start singing the 'fields of Athenry' - then I have to tell them to feck off."
Yea... hahaha... that's when I start caring too.
But it would be like me seeing punters chatting and drinking in a pub only to find out they didn't see it that way themselves. To them they might see it as something else and could even argue the point, but for me it wouldn't matter -- they're chatting and drinking in a pub as far as I can tell. Which one of us is wrong?
Maybe this is too much of a philosophical discussion that none of us here are qualified for... I know I'm not. But I just can't see that a tree doesn't fall in a forest if the loggers didn't think they cut it down.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Used in moderation and in appropriate tunes, I find the sound of the bodhran anywhere from entrancing to hair-raising, and I like it a lot. To judge from most posts here, the instrument is being abused a lot! It's like a heavy spice, you don't want too much, and you certainly don't want it in every dish you cook.
I have a tar, which could be a tame version of the bodhran, and I love playing it though even with its relatively mild voice I suspect my neighbors might not, so I rarely use it anymore. I believe I'll take it out into one of our pretty parks some fine day and play away as much as I want. It's truly meditative....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by jonrkc
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Jack, I'm tempted to let you off the hook, but I can't. Your reasoning is flawed, and whenever someone reveals that flawed reasoning, instead of re-examining your position or posting a reasoned explanation of it to move the conversation forward, you resort to cheap sarcasm, ridicule, and patronizing language. I'm calling it as I see it.
It's impossible to have a civil discussion with you--and then you accuse me of being insulting because I've pointed out your unreasonable and condescending rhetoric. You attack, and then cry "I'm the victim!"
Enough goes on here at the yella board--like the gang-up on Bruce--that would cross my threshold for basic civility, and yet I can abide Jeremy's decision to let much of it stand. But your relentless incivility when someone disagrees with you or challenges your idiosyncratic notions of what sessions are about crosses the line. I hope you come to your senses before Jeremy does.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Apologies to the innocent bystanders who stumble on this sordid scene. I'm sincerely disappointed that it's come to this again, but I'm tired of ugly rhetoric trumping reason. I'm tired of listening to people who think that if they say something is true often enough, it must be true, even when it flies in the face of other people's reality. That's what's wrong with public discourse in America these days, and I'm sad to see it infect a community I've enjoyed for many years.
So...any fresh news on the cow tipping scene?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I think the answer's staring you both (Whoosis + PB) in the face. Will, it's simply that your session is different to Jack's. We all have different tastes in sessions and the way they are run, adn this leads us to hold different ideals and definitions of what a session should be. I imagine Jack's session to be much more like a performance than yours, Will. I get the impression that his would be a lot more serious - less getting up and walking around and chatting, little or no noodling of half-remembered tunes, just set after set of well-rehearsed tunes played by people who play together on a regular basis as a band. That's fine if that's what you're into. I think unless you've been to each other's sessions there's little point in discussing it further because it's all speculation.
I don't think you can really judge how the sessions compare in Ireland either. I doubt either of you have spent long enough as a regular in one particular session over there to get into the musicians heads enough to judge their ideals and definitions of how a session should be. I would think you'd have to be going every week for a few months or years to get a feel for that.
I can only make a point from my own experience of sessions I've been a regular at in my local area, and people in my area who I've played with. Someone like bb for example, I play with her quite a lot, and we're good friends, so I know what tunes she plays and her likes and dislikes, and how she views sessions and what her ideals are. They're a bit different from my own, but I nevertheless have a broad understanding of how she works. Now, Jack, you've seen her YouTube posting right? I can tell you right now that if you take those 3 musicians out of Bridie's kitchen and plonk them in a pub in Sydney or Melbourne, if the 3 of them were playing the same set together, they would *not* play *any* differently if there were other people in the pub. The only issue might be if there were distractions of some sort to take their minds off what they're doing. To them, it doesn't matter who's there listening or not listening, or taking pictures of them with a camera, or making a video of them.
But you take Ado out of Bridie's kitchen and put him on stage with Katiebee and the other people from his band, now *that's* a performance.
A performance has to come from a performer, not from any perceived audience. If the person playing tunes doesn't feel some sort of responsibility to an audience, then it's not a performance.
Here's another example. There's a YouTube posting of Simon Thoumire playing some tunes for the camera. This is a performance. There's nobody in the room where he's playing, at least nobody that you can see, but he is aware that he is playing for a potential audience who download his posting. That's why he makes an announcement before he plays. Now, if you secretly filmed him through a hole in the wall of his house playing concertina alone, that's not a performance right? This 2nd scenario is how Will et al view sessions.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will, my point is that if Jack views *himself* as giving a performance at his session, then *he* probably is. It's as simple as that!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark, I've been to a lot of sessions and ours is really no different. But that's not even my point. It's quite simple actually; what the session is to the musicians isn't necessarily the same as it is to the in the pub. We see it as you describe -- they see it as a performance. According to the definition of what a performance is they're correct. According to our definition of what a session is -- we're correct. Who's wrong? Neither. Who's correct? Both.
I think I summed it up best in my response to bb: If a tree falls in the forest, but the loggers don't think they cut it down -- does that mean it didn't fall?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
bb, I am concerned that you may be at risk of being mistaken for such a controversial figure as bodhran bliss.
I urge you to immediately change your name for your own safety. You could be called.......you could use the name "starting over"!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I'm sorry the people in your pub think it is a performance, but that doesn't make it one. That's just their misunderstanding of the situation due to their inexperience with sessions. Do you find you get a lot of requests for songs and stuff? This tends to happen when punters have misread the situation and think that the music is there for their benefit.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I've never contested that, Mark. I have no idea what Jack's session is like, and he can make it as much of a performance or not as he likes. But I'm not the one characterizing Jack's session. He's said plenty about mine, however, as though he's been there.
It's not what Jack wants a session to be that I've argued against here, but his insistence that my session and others can't be anything but a performance. In my understanding, he's missing some essential differences--the same differences that other people have highlighted to me about their sessions vs. more gig-like approaches to the music.
And I really don't care whether Jack gets this or not. But it does strike me as rude and insensitive that he persists in telling people here that their sessions must be performances, even though several people have tried to explain the differences to him and put him on notice that his relentless insistence on this rude. A bit like Michael's crusade against bodhran players (but at least Michael gives a well reasoned stance for his point of view).
And when Jack stoops to ridiculing my posts instead of addressing the reasoned points in them, it makes civil dialogue difficult if not impossible. I eman, this is a guy who once, rather than respond substantively to my post, told me to go make love to my wife. What's the point in trying to reason with that? And why is this repeated ugly behavior tolerated?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Sorry... I left out the word "punters" in this line: "what the session is to the musicians isn't necessarily the same as it is to the [ punters ] in the pub"
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
As far as I understand it Jack, you're saying that *you* don't think that the playing you do in your session is a performance, but that the punters *do* think it's a performance. This logically means that the punters don't understand what's going on, which is understandable; you're in San Fransisco. So maybe it's up to you to educate them and involve them more so that they *do* understand what you're doing. That's assuming you care, of course. But then, if you care what they think, then that means you feel some responsibility towards them, which means that you *are* performing for them. Thus bringing us back in a full circle. So, what do you think?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will writes: "He's said plenty about mine, however, as though he's been there." This is a lie... I never said I knew what Will's sessions were like. Even in this thread I said, "I have yet to visit the pub where you hold yours." Why Will is resorting to lying now is anyone's guess.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark... as I told bb: I don't care what the punters think. My point is simply that they believe their seeing a performance. For them it IS a performance... even if we don't think so and don't care. For us it's a session... not a performance. simple as that.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will, I why does it bother you what Jack thinks about your session? You know yourself that his assumptions are off the mark, so isn't that enough? If he's going to sessions in Ireland and experiencing them all as "performances" like gigs, then all his musical experiences, whether at a gig or session, are going to be of "performances". Therefore he misses out on the feeling we get when we go to sessions such as your own. That's his loss, not yours.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"My point is simply that they believe their seeing a performance. For them it IS a performance... even if we don't think so and don't care. For us it's a session... not a performance. simple as that."
But even if the punters think it's a performance doesn't make it one unless the musicians also see it that way.
It's like a magicians trick. The people watching might think they are seeing something like a person getting cut in half, but just because that's how they perceive it doesn't make it actually so. The magician knows this.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"If a tree falls in the forest, but the loggers don't think they cut it down, does this mean the tree didn't fall?"
See, I can't tell if Jack thinks he's being logical here, or if he's misrepresenting his "opponents'" position just to make his own look good.
And it's nonsensical. Of course it doesn't mean the tree didn't fall. But neither does it mean the loggers in fact cut the tree down. If the loggers never laid a blade to that tree, then obviously it fell for other reasons.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
The only difference with the magic trick is that people would know from their own common sense and experiences in life they couldn't possibly be witnessing someone being cut in half. With sessions on the other hand, most people would not have experience of session culture unless they've played the music themselves, especially in somewhere like SF, so any conclusion they come to about what they are seeing will be flawed due to their ignorance. Therefore I conclude that Will has managed to educate his punters to an extent, whereas your punters don't know what the feck is going on and think it's probably just a gig. You seem to be happy with that, so endov.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
In this thread above, Will wrote: "Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them."
Jack wrote: "Sure, Will, but your session isn't always like that... maybe only when you want to make a point."
How would you know what my session is like?
And then you accuse me of lying? Nice. How civil of you.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark... I'll say it again. I never made assumptions or claimed to know anything about Will's sessions. If you think I did -- please point it out.
Mark writes: "It's like a magicians trick. The people watching might think they are seeing something like a person getting cut in half, but just because that's how they perceive it doesn't make it actually so. The magician knows this."
So your position is that a session is like a magic trick? And you think I'm not making sense? Cop on!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Jack, that wasn't very nice of you. What made you suddenly lash out at me like that? I thought we were having a conversation, not a slanging match.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will has described his session differently in other threads. He has described it as a wonderful musical event in other threads -- I never doubted this. In this thread however it sounds like a different affair all together where people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I'm not lashing out at you Mark... come on.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
PS in answer to "I never made assumptions or claimed to know anything about Will's sessions. If you think I did -- please point it out."
Will just answered this in his post above, EXTREMELY clearly.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I never said chatting, cookies, and half playing tunes detracted from making wonderful music. In a nutshell, that's the aspect of a good session (which isn't a performance) that Jack seems not to understand, and is apparently unwilling to admit exists, except in the minds of self-deluded session musicians.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Wrong... Mark. I was referring to the way Will described his own session. I never claimed to know the slightest thing about his session and you know it.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Listen right.
1) We all agree that for us, sessions aren't performances.
2) Will thinks that his punters think his session *isn't* a performance
3) Jack thinks that his punters think his session *is* a performance
however:
4) None of us cares what the punters think
So why exactly are we arguing about this?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
LOL, but feel free to tell me my description of my own session is wrong....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will wrote earlier about his session: "Here in Montana, it'd be a huge stretch to call what we do a performance. Five or six people sitting around a small table off in the corner, drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends. If people think that's a performance, I feel sorry for them."
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark writes: "So why exactly are we arguing about this?"
Now you're starting to make sense.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
And PB, you go on to say "Sure, Will, but your session isn't always like that... maybe only when you want to make a point", and you infer from it that "people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies"
That's not how I interpret Will's posts at all.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
ROFLMAO--this reminds me of being a kid, listening to my parents argue about me as if I wasn't in the room.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
So what you're saying is that we're not arguing about sessions as performances at all. This is personal, and it has to do with your misinterpretation of Will's posts about his own session, and Will's frustration at your misunderstanding. Ah, okay, then I can go now. I see that this isn't actually a discussion at all, then.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Update on my philosophical allegory: If loggers cut down a tree and it falls, but the loggers don't think they cut it down, does this mean the tree didn't fall?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
If the loggers don't think they cut it down then they have a medical problem. Jack. YOU are the one not making sense here.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
A person from an environmental group finds a tree that looks as though it has been cut down.
He goes and complains to the loggers.
The loggers know that they didn't cut it down because they were logging in an area that was nowhere near the fallen tree.
In fact, the loggers didn't cut down the tree.
But the person from the environmental group thinks they did.
Does that mean they did, just because that person *thinks* they did?
No!
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark, I'm trying to avoid an argument with Will. I stopped talking directly to him after he started with the ad hominem back there. I'm simply trying to get across my point regarding sessions and what they are to the public when you hold them in public places. That's all.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Still mis-stating the argument. A more accurate metaphor might look like this:
"If loggers cut down a tree in the forest to make fence posts out of it, but a nearby cabin owner thinks it's for his firewood, who's on the short end of the stick when the loggers haul the tree off to the mill and make fence posts?"
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
"Avoiding an argument" LOL, this just gets more surreal.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Hahaha.. Mark, your allegory doesn't compare to mine in the slightest.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Jack, you are saying that the loggers must have cut down the tree just because that person from the environmental group accused them of it. Dude, I hope you never get called up for jury duty
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
No PB, mine doesn't compare to yours. Yours makes no sense whatsoever.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Don't think I haven't noticed that after posting Will's own words no one has acknowledged that Will described his session as I indicated.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Nobody but Mark and I, but we're not in the same conversation as Jack, apparently.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
My very next post implicity acknowledged this by showing how you made assumptions based on that text. Okay, now I know you're not listening. Blah blah blah, with your fingers in your ears.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark writes: "you infer from it that "people are only half playing tunes, chatting and eating cookies""
Will writes: "drinking and telling stories, noodling misremembered tunes halfway through. Occasionally launching a set. Last night we ate homeade chocolate chip cookies one of the punters brought. At any given time, one or two of us is off chatting with friends."
Explain where I misread it, Mark.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Well, I would never assume from what Will said that people are only half playing tunes. I would assume that when they lauch into sets (his words) they play them in full. The chatting and eating cookies I think you got right. Same at our session, but without the cookies. We've never had any of our punters buy us cookies, or "biscuits" as we call them.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Mark writes: "Well, I would never assume from what Will said that people are only half playing tunes."
What part of "noodling misremembered tunes halfway through" do you not understand?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Will said "noodling misremembered tunes halfway through"
For me this does *not* equate to "people only half playing tunes".
I would infer from this that, because it is not a performance like a gig, people at the session would feel free to pick out a tune between sets so that they can remember it properly to play later, or maybe they are turning to the person next to them and saying "do you play this one" "oh yesion before, so this is my assumption. Am I right, Will?ah, I know that" "I can't remember the 2nd part, how does it go?" "isn't it this?" "no that's the corner house I know that one - oh I know it's this" [launches into set].
I've never been to Will's session so this is my assumption. Am I right, Will?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Oops my post got screwed up, try again:
would infer from this that, because it is not a performance like a gig, people at the session would feel free to pick out a tune between sets so that they can remember it properly to play later, or maybe they are turning to the person next to them and saying "do you play this one" "oh yes, I know that" "I can't remember the 2nd part, how does it go?" "isn't it this?" "no that's the corner house I know that one - oh I know it's this" [launches into set].
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
What part of "launching into sets" does Jack not understand?
What sort of arrogance lets a man disagree with someone else's assessment of their own session, one he's never been to?
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I can't believe this... Will is disputing with his own description of his session. I give up... I'm off to bed. G'night fellas.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I could be wrong:
"noodling misremembered tunes halfway through"
Another interpretation is that Will starts a tune and suddenly realises halfway through the B-part that there's a turn in it he can't remember, so he plays something that will do so that the tune hangs together.
Of course this would be unthinkable in your session, Jack, right? How dare he play a wrong note
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Eh? Will is disputing with his own description of his session. Did some posts of Will's get wiped or something? Jeez, this is really confusing. Who would have thought a discussion between 3 people could be so confusing. I've had this before but only when I've been talking to someone in like Vietnam or somewhere where my addressee speaks a language I don't understand.
Fascinating...
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Well, the noodling takes different forms. Yes, as my senior moments start melting together into a constant stream, I sometimes noodle the B part of a tune before actually starting it, to fend of that unpleasantness of soaring into the A part, only to come up blank at the turn.
But sometimes, when my friends are talking, drinking, eating cookies, whatever, I noodle on parts of tunes that come to mind. Mind you, I'm most often chatting, drinking, and gnoshing too. But sometimes a tune I haven't thought of in ages pops into my head, and I'll quietly tickle it a bit to see if I could do it justice at some later point in the evening. Obviously, this isn't a habit I take to my gigs--I don't think an "audience" would appreciate or even understand such behavior. At our session, however, nobody in the room bats an eye.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Cross posted with you there, Mark.
I dsiputed my own description? Wow, my dementia must be worse than I thought. Better up my dose....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
I pity the poor souls who wake up to this in a few hours....
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
There are numerous "sessions" in pubs where a group of musicians sit in a corner, or side room, and play music for their own enjoyment, totally oblivious to the other people in the pub. This happens all over the world. It is not my cup of tea, but that is a personal preference.
However the other people in the pub cannot reach this state of "separation" and are likely to see the musical proceedings as a performance. Nothing too difficult about that. One man's ceiling is another man's floor, and all that.
I remember playing at a session in Dublin, where the musicians were "removed" from the crowd. The crowd however had travelled from all over Dublin to go to that pub, because "there is a session". However not one of them showed any interest in the proceedings, and talked and drank all night without appearing to listen. Next day however, when questioned, they are likely to say that the music was "mighty". It is simply human nature.
However when half of the world are starving, despite a surplus of food, and the wealthy half are trying to kill each other, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.
By the way, does anyone like bodhrans.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Don't pity us Will, his is the best thing I've ever read for ages. It reminds me of that painting by Goya of the two giants mired up to their waists, belabouring each other with clubs.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Hahaha I almost wrote a post to correct Bodhran Bliss and explain my point of view, but then I suddenly remembered that I don't need to because there's no point because he's a bodhran player. Hehe, lets me off the hook.
# Posted on December 9th 2006 by Dow
Re: Dose anyone like bodhrans
Dose anyone know the names of any sites where i can have a proper discussion and avoid bliss and the rest of the limited clowns who f**ked up this one.
# Posted on December