Recently at a local fiddle workshop an total beginner cellist turned up and caused some headaches for the instructor, I was thinking of purchasing a cello for classical use but I was wondering what kind of greeting I'd get if I took a cello to my local session, if I turned up at your session what would await me: a warm welcome or be shown the door?
There was a discussion on this recently. Someone pointed out that a session is a very crowded place for such a large and expensive instrument, unless you don't mind a few scratches, nicks and spilled beer on it.
I suppose it would depend on exactly how purist the session you visited was. Cellos rarely play as another melody instrument, adding harmonies and such, and a purist session would probably prefer that a cello wasn't there, given that. Other sessions would welcome a cellist with open arms (a given being that the cellist knew what the hell they were doing, of course! *grin*).
At my session? A modified welcome -- warm on the personal side and a "wait and see how much s/he knows about Irish music" on the playing side.
The more I learn about Irish trad music, the less I like harmonies and arrangements, but I still enjoy Lunasa and other such -- I'm just not sure that I want to play such music. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I'll change my mind and decide to go the hybrid route.
Yet another what if someone playing an ******* turns up at the session thread.
What next? A Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute in a session?
(Apologies to any readers residing in the North of Moravia)
Recently at a local pennywhistle workshop an total beginner Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flautist turned up and caused some headaches for the instructor, I was thinking of purchasing a Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute for classical use but I was wondering what kind of greeting I'd get if I took a Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute to my local session, if I turned up at your session what would await me: a warm welcome or be shown the door?
Actually, a bass nose flute would be a rather humorous instrument to play, or to watch people play. How big would the thing have to be?
Oh, I never mind answering a civil and honest question, Geoff. Most people haven't been round long enough to see the subjects cycle round again. If I don't want to re-hash or go over another facet of a subject, I just ignore the thread. No need to be unfriendly.
I agree with Zina. The number of threads on this site is rapidly approaching 1200, so I don't think we can reasonably expect newcomers to trawl through all that material, even using keywords such as "cello", to search for an exact answer which may very well not exist for a particular question. Anyway, a revisited topic gives previous contributors a chance to reconsider their thoughts on the matter if they so wish, and perhaps to recount new experiences or ideas.
I am a classical cellist, doing about 15-20 concerts a year. I also play the fiddle in sessions about 3 times a week, and go to a local workshop (www.hiberniacentre.freeserve.co.uk/) every fortnight. I am firmly of the opinion that the cello is, most of the time, not suitable for the average session. The cello, by its nature, is not as agile as the fiddle, and so there aren't all that many cellists who are capable of playing tunes convincingly at session speed, and if they can, would surely prefer to learn the fiddle for this purpose. The cello providing a harmony line in a session is only viable if it can work in well with other harmony providers such as the guitars, otherwise a clash of harmonies will only muddy the texture, so there must be a complete understanding of the music between these players.
There are exceptions, and a cello can indeed sometimes work ok in a session. I was once asked to bring my cello along to a teaching session following on from a workshop and was provided with a specially written bass part to accompany Sheebag Sheemore played by all the fiddles and a couple of flutes and whistles. It wasn't a bad sound. A country pub session I go to has a regular cellist who usually plays pizzicato as accompaniment. She is a music teacher, has an excellent understanding of harmony, and so works in well with the very experienced regular guitarist. The layout of this particular pub is also "safe" for the cello - an important consideration.
The cello can also have a real role to play on occasion in providing a bass line or a counterpoint tune in a professional band that would have rehearsed intensively before appearing in public. And don't forget that the cello, as is the viola, is up there along with the fiddle and flute as an ideal instrument for playing solo slow airs.
I've been to two sessions where there were cellos, and in both of them, they were a hit. Everyone wanted to hear them play the cello. (The musicans playing them would play traditional tunes written for the fiddle). But in both cases they were an addition to the session.
Caroline Lavelle (I think the name was?) used to play Cello with De Dannan some 15 years ago. Sounded great, but of course, they had been practicing. Not to mention that she was A LOT better looking than Frankie Gavin! I had a possibility to play at a session with them at Kaustinen Folk Music Festival in Finland one summer...
As an experienced Northern Moravian Nose Flute player I can recommend the instrument for sessions; its vibrant and sonorous lower register coupled with it's plaintive warbling (some what reminiscent of a Blackbird trapped in a phone box) is particularly suitable for Mazurkas.
There is a famous painting of Neil Gow playing Fiddle and Nathaniel his brother playing Cello. In the background is a Piper preparing to play in the usual manner.
I love Cellos in sessions and Double Basses too.
All the best for the New Year PP
Geraldine Cotter's "Piano+" CD has cello in 3 tracks, with great results. The cello shows up as solo instrument in a slow air, bass and counterpoint to the piano in a couple of hornpipes, and unison solo with fiddle and flute in a couple of reels that are played fast, but not too fast. It works very well in all 3 settings. The cellist is Adele O'Dwyer. However, this is is a group of highly skilled musicians who were not drunk and probably rehearsed a lot before recording; hardly your usual session material.
I meself think almost any instrument can work well in a session, as long as the player is excellent. Beginners such as myself should keep to the traditional instruments, or the Northern Moravian Nose Flute, which is welcome everywhere, especially when there are tubas also.
First, what Trevor says earlier about newcomers and 1200 past discussions is spot on. It's taken me a long time to get back even as far as last September! And sometimes the search engine doesn't turn up what you're looking for. For example, before posting my query on "Peel of the Onion" I searched for that title and the keywords. There was an earlier discussion of that title but the search returned 0 results. So thanks to those who take the trouble to point us new chums directly to earlier threads - it is appreciated!!
Second, anyone tickled by the Northern Moravian Nose Flute might also be interested in some lesser-known instruments of the middle ages, which you can read about here:
Nice link Trish.
Jack Vance the Science Fiction writer has an instrument called the Screedle in one of his books. I think its a Dam good name for a Bombard.
PP
The Baltimore Consort uses a viola da gamba (precursor to the modern cello) quite extensively throughout their recordings of ancient Irish music on "The Mad Buckgoat". Their arrangements probably reflect "traditional" Irish music more accurately than most "purist" sessions today.
That's an interesting album! There's a slipjig on there -- in fact, it might actually be the Mad Buckgoat -- to die for, I've been wanting to choreograph something to it for years. I dunno that I'd say that it reflects "traditional" Irish music better than purist sessions, though -- there's no cigar box fiddles or person tapping a coin on a pint glass nor any scuffling in the back...heheh...I mean, which part of "traditional" were you referring to it reflecting exactly, Dabooks? *grin* Maybe the upperclass version...I can't envision too many Travelers roaming about with viola da gambas in quartets, frankly...somebody prove me wrong, that's a great mental image...
Viola da gamba in a session is about as traditional as Woody Allen in "Take the Money and Run", playing cello in a marching band. But i understand, you mean that they went for what they consider the old style of playing, though the instrumentation is not.
One interesting thing, however, is how old does it have to be to be traditional. The tradition of playing Irish music in "sessions" started sometime around the 1950s. The tunes are much older, of course, but traditionally they were played solo, not in groups. Right?
Well...yes, and no, I think Glauber. You didn't get the sort of thing we have now (accompaniment on guitars and bodhrans and such, sitting round in a bar), but you had ceili bands well before 1950, you had groups of musicians playing the tunes together, if there was a piano in the room, somebody was generally thumping on it. You probably wouldn't see a single fiddler or piper playing for the sets these days, there's generally accompaniment, but back a ways it was relatively common. Where's one of our ethnomusicologists?
Pardon an interjection from a paid-up member of the period instrument movement... I agree totally that a viola da gamba in ITM is not "historically" authentic (whether it can be made to work or not is a totally different topic) but it gamba is not the precursor to the modern cello. I thought so too for a long long time.
Broad simplification: the violin and viola da gamba families existed side by side as two distinct parallel developments throughout the Renaissance, with the treble and tenor viols dying off when homogeneous consort music became less popular. The bass viol continued in use throughout the baroque period both as a continuo instrument with keyboard, lute etc, and as solo instrument (a la the soundtrack to "Tous les Matins du Monde"). It would therefore often be played as a continuo to accompany solo cello. Bass viol dropped off the scene after the high Baroque period when it no longer suited the kind of music then in vogue.
Here endeth the lesson . I was quite surprised to find out that gambas and celli played together and that there was such a thing as the Renaissance violin!
Forgive the interruption, now back to the real topic...
Cellos In Sessions
Cellos In Sessions
Recently at a local fiddle workshop an total beginner cellist turned up and caused some headaches for the instructor, I was thinking of purchasing a cello for classical use but I was wondering what kind of greeting I'd get if I took a cello to my local session, if I turned up at your session what would await me: a warm welcome or be shown the door?
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Cellos In Sessions
There was a discussion on this recently. Someone pointed out that a session is a very crowded place for such a large and expensive instrument, unless you don't mind a few scratches, nicks and spilled beer on it.
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Andee
Re: Cellos In Sessions
I suppose it would depend on exactly how purist the session you visited was. Cellos rarely play as another melody instrument, adding harmonies and such, and a purist session would probably prefer that a cello wasn't there, given that. Other sessions would welcome a cellist with open arms (a given being that the cellist knew what the hell they were doing, of course! *grin*).
At my session? A modified welcome -- warm on the personal side and a "wait and see how much s/he knows about Irish music" on the playing side.
The more I learn about Irish trad music, the less I like harmonies and arrangements, but I still enjoy Lunasa and other such -- I'm just not sure that I want to play such music. Who knows, maybe tomorrow I'll change my mind and decide to go the hybrid route.
Zina
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Nose Flutes In Sessions
Yet another what if someone playing an ******* turns up at the session thread.
What next? A Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute in a session?
(Apologies to any readers residing in the North of Moravia)
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Cellos In Sessions
I have a similar question.
Recently at a local pennywhistle workshop an total beginner Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flautist turned up and caused some headaches for the instructor, I was thinking of purchasing a Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute for classical use but I was wondering what kind of greeting I'd get if I took a Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute to my local session, if I turned up at your session what would await me: a warm welcome or be shown the door?
Actually, a bass nose flute would be a rather humorous instrument to play, or to watch people play. How big would the thing have to be?
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by no longer exists
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Mark,
Did you make that up? Northern Moravian Bass Nose Flute? That's Funny. I'm going to try to work that one into normal conversation!
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Caoimghgin
Sorry! Re-read the posts! Nice one geoff!
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Oh, I never mind answering a civil and honest question, Geoff. Most people haven't been round long enough to see the subjects cycle round again. If I don't want to re-hash or go over another facet of a subject, I just ignore the thread. No need to be unfriendly.
Zina
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Cellos In Sessions
I agree with Zina. The number of threads on this site is rapidly approaching 1200, so I don't think we can reasonably expect newcomers to trawl through all that material, even using keywords such as "cello", to search for an exact answer which may very well not exist for a particular question. Anyway, a revisited topic gives previous contributors a chance to reconsider their thoughts on the matter if they so wish, and perhaps to recount new experiences or ideas.
I am a classical cellist, doing about 15-20 concerts a year. I also play the fiddle in sessions about 3 times a week, and go to a local workshop (www.hiberniacentre.freeserve.co.uk/) every fortnight. I am firmly of the opinion that the cello is, most of the time, not suitable for the average session. The cello, by its nature, is not as agile as the fiddle, and so there aren't all that many cellists who are capable of playing tunes convincingly at session speed, and if they can, would surely prefer to learn the fiddle for this purpose. The cello providing a harmony line in a session is only viable if it can work in well with other harmony providers such as the guitars, otherwise a clash of harmonies will only muddy the texture, so there must be a complete understanding of the music between these players.
There are exceptions, and a cello can indeed sometimes work ok in a session. I was once asked to bring my cello along to a teaching session following on from a workshop and was provided with a specially written bass part to accompany Sheebag Sheemore played by all the fiddles and a couple of flutes and whistles. It wasn't a bad sound. A country pub session I go to has a regular cellist who usually plays pizzicato as accompaniment. She is a music teacher, has an excellent understanding of harmony, and so works in well with the very experienced regular guitarist. The layout of this particular pub is also "safe" for the cello - an important consideration.
The cello can also have a real role to play on occasion in providing a bass line or a counterpoint tune in a professional band that would have rehearsed intensively before appearing in public. And don't forget that the cello, as is the viola, is up there along with the fiddle and flute as an ideal instrument for playing solo slow airs.
trevor
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cellos In Sessions
I've been to two sessions where there were cellos, and in both of them, they were a hit. Everyone wanted to hear them play the cello. (The musicans playing them would play traditional tunes written for the fiddle). But in both cases they were an addition to the session.
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Kallie
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Caroline Lavelle (I think the name was?) used to play Cello with De Dannan some 15 years ago. Sounded great, but of course, they had been practicing.
Not to mention that she was A LOT better looking than Frankie Gavin! I had a possibility to play at a session with them at Kaustinen Folk Music Festival in Finland one summer...
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Markku
Re: Cellos In Sessions
As an experienced Northern Moravian Nose Flute player I can recommend the instrument for sessions; its vibrant and sonorous lower register coupled with it's plaintive warbling (some what reminiscent of a Blackbird trapped in a phone box) is particularly suitable for Mazurkas.
There is a famous painting of Neil Gow playing Fiddle and Nathaniel his brother playing Cello. In the background is a Piper preparing to play in the usual manner.
I love Cellos in sessions and Double Basses too.
All the best for the New Year PP
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Cellos In Sessions
You can see the Piper at http://www47.pair.com/lindo/Images/snuff.JPG
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Cellos In Sessions
The usual manner, Pied? You mean, having a drink or a smoke or something? *grin*
zls
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Geraldine Cotter's "Piano+" CD has cello in 3 tracks, with great results. The cello shows up as solo instrument in a slow air, bass and counterpoint to the piano in a couple of hornpipes, and unison solo with fiddle and flute in a couple of reels that are played fast, but not too fast. It works very well in all 3 settings. The cellist is Adele O'Dwyer. However, this is is a group of highly skilled musicians who were not drunk and probably rehearsed a lot before recording; hardly your usual session material.
I meself think almost any instrument can work well in a session, as long as the player is excellent. Beginners such as myself should keep to the traditional instruments, or the Northern Moravian Nose Flute, which is welcome everywhere, especially when there are tubas also.
# Posted on January 3rd 2003 by glauber
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Thanks, if I get a cello I think I'll just use it for classical purposses, in sessions I'll stick to my Fiddle!
# Posted on January 3rd 2003 by Dafydd Monks
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Ive heard a cello in a session -the player was wonderful and the sound filled in the "bottom" of the sound in a lovely way
# Posted on January 4th 2003 by allan21
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Two slightly tangential comments..
First, what Trevor says earlier about newcomers and 1200 past discussions is spot on. It's taken me a long time to get back even as far as last September! And sometimes the search engine doesn't turn up what you're looking for. For example, before posting my query on "Peel of the Onion" I searched for that title and the keywords. There was an earlier discussion of that title but the search returned 0 results. So thanks to those who take the trouble to point us new chums directly to earlier threads - it is appreciated!!
Second, anyone tickled by the Northern Moravian Nose Flute might also be interested in some lesser-known instruments of the middle ages, which you can read about here:
http://members.tripod.com/~whitebard/instmid.htm
Tish
# Posted on January 5th 2003 by Tish
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Nice link Trish.
Jack Vance the Science Fiction writer has an instrument called the Screedle in one of his books. I think its a Dam good name for a Bombard.
PP
# Posted on January 6th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Cellos In Sessions
The Baltimore Consort uses a viola da gamba (precursor to the modern cello) quite extensively throughout their recordings of ancient Irish music on "The Mad Buckgoat". Their arrangements probably reflect "traditional" Irish music more accurately than most "purist" sessions today.
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Dabooks
Re: Cellos In Sessions
That's an interesting album! There's a slipjig on there -- in fact, it might actually be the Mad Buckgoat -- to die for, I've been wanting to choreograph something to it for years. I dunno that I'd say that it reflects "traditional" Irish music better than purist sessions, though -- there's no cigar box fiddles or person tapping a coin on a pint glass nor any scuffling in the back...heheh...I mean, which part of "traditional" were you referring to it reflecting exactly, Dabooks? *grin* Maybe the upperclass version...I can't envision too many Travelers roaming about with viola da gambas in quartets, frankly...somebody prove me wrong, that's a great mental image...
Zina
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Viola da gamba in a session is about as traditional as Woody Allen in "Take the Money and Run", playing cello in a marching band.
But i understand, you mean that they went for what they consider the old style of playing, though the instrumentation is not.
One interesting thing, however, is how old does it have to be to be traditional. The tradition of playing Irish music in "sessions" started sometime around the 1950s. The tunes are much older, of course, but traditionally they were played solo, not in groups. Right?
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by glauber
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Well...yes, and no, I think Glauber. You didn't get the sort of thing we have now (accompaniment on guitars and bodhrans and such, sitting round in a bar), but you had ceili bands well before 1950, you had groups of musicians playing the tunes together, if there was a piano in the room, somebody was generally thumping on it. You probably wouldn't see a single fiddler or piper playing for the sets these days, there's generally accompaniment, but back a ways it was relatively common. Where's one of our ethnomusicologists?
Zina
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Cellos In Sessions
Pardon an interjection from a paid-up member of the period instrument movement... I agree totally that a viola da gamba in ITM is not "historically" authentic (whether it can be made to work or not is a totally different topic) but it gamba is not the precursor to the modern cello. I thought so too for a long long time.
Broad simplification: the violin and viola da gamba families existed side by side as two distinct parallel developments throughout the Renaissance, with the treble and tenor viols dying off when homogeneous consort music became less popular. The bass viol continued in use throughout the baroque period both as a continuo instrument with keyboard, lute etc, and as solo instrument (a la the soundtrack to "Tous les Matins du Monde"). It would therefore often be played as a continuo to accompany solo cello. Bass viol dropped off the scene after the high Baroque period when it no longer suited the kind of music then in vogue.
Here endeth the lesson . I was quite surprised to find out that gambas and celli played together and that there was such a thing as the Renaissance violin!
Forgive the interruption, now back to the real topic...
Tish
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Tish
Re: Cellos In Sessions
There was supposed to be a "grin" after "here endeth...", sorry!
# Posted on January 8th 2003 by Tish