I recently picked up De Dannan "Bohemian Rhapsody". Although I enjoy the CD I am a little dissapointed that the Accordion seems to wash out the fiddle. I bought a Paddy Glackin CD with an Accordion player about a month back. (Forgive me for not knowing the accordion players name.) It was hard to hear any of Paddy's playing at all. The sounds the two instruments generate seem to be similar enough that the fiddler gets drowned out by the louder accordion.
It's been a while since I listened to my Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain CDs. I don't recall such a strong dominance from the accordion. I saw them live as well and the mix was good.
So I wonder. Is this a curse that can only be cured by playing different parts? Do any of you actually think it's a curse? Is it a mixing problem? If so, why would Frankie Gavin put up for it? Perhaps my ears are just not up to the task of sorting those two instruments. I'd appreciate your comments and opinions.
I generally second your opinion, but rather like to think of the two instruments melting together. Being a fiddler myself, this helps (I am in a band with an accordion as the other melody instrument ...); if you really want to 'follow' the fiddle, the combination with the accordion is probably not the best there is.
Yeah, it takes a box player with a light touch and the will to use it to blend with a fiddle without overpowering. But then there are plenty of examples of fiddles drowning out the boxes.
It's great fun as a fiddler to play duets with a box or concertina, though, because you can swing and slide around all that crisp precision and get the best of both worlds.
I think it's worse live. Last time I saw Patrick Street, I was struck by the fact that Kevin Burke's fiddling seemed almost superfluous behind Jackie Daly's box playing. Not only was he hard to hear, but he seemed to be disengaged and uninterested -- having a bad day, maybe, or recognizing his playing barely mattered.
Cuchulain - Burke could very well have been bored, out of touch or having a bad day. We have batted around a discussions covering Kevin Burke's zone. He slips in and out of that zone fast. He is not much to watch unless you merely focus on the violin and bow. I believe you could have been a witness to the "Burke Zone".
Very good points. We have at least one problem stated but it can happen with any two instruments (including voices). A bad mix can drown out anyone. I had a friend who liked guitar and vocals. Her mixing really showed her preferences. I had to play my violin so hard that I sounded like crud and my strings were stretched by the bow friction. In another band - we upped my levels on the mic so I could play with ease with the other players (Including a piercing concertina). I don't want to drown out others - I just don't want to have to force my playing to be heard.
Yes, I've seen the discussions about the Burke Zone. And that could have been it -- certainly, the bow was moving, anyway.
But I think it's more than just volume and mix. Presumably you could crank the fiddle way up and lower the box to the point where the dominance is the other way around. But actually getting them to mix is an elusive challenge. The instruments just sound enough similar that they tend to obliterate each other. If you have a Jackie Daly playing with a lesser known fiddler, that's probably OK, but it seems like a waste to have someone like Burke there.
I was told once by a sound engineer that when you mix down the music with separate lead players for a CD, you have to let somebody win. In this particular case, it was a mix down of a flute and fiddle. I was listening to the tracks as he worked on the mix and it seemed fairly obvious that 'something ain't right' when you allow two or more leads to have equal footing with the other.
Anyway, that was a bit of insight I received not too long ago.
What your sound engineer said makes some sense.
I suppose that's part of what happens when music is played in the traditional unison. Maybe the thing to do is enjoy the sound of the blend and not worry about which line is which.
My partner is one of those sound engineer guys and it's not really letting somebody win, its developing a blend that hopefully would exist if everyone actually recorded the tracks at the same time. Kind of like singing in a choir where the idea is not to solo (even though you could) but to sound like everyone else so you create one sound. If there are two similar instruments playing a melody line then a good mix down is the one that creates the balance between the two that actually creates a unique sound that is the blend of the two. To try to pick out the fiddle, should be difficult. If you think about two players playing together, they watch and listen to each other until they are in the same groove or zone or whatever you want to call it, that's where the magic happens. A sound engineer has to try to recreate that zone.
I have to say that the blend is what it is all about. You don't have to hear the two instruments or argue about who is drowning who.
I was accompanying a fiddle and Uilleann pipes once when the two really seemed to gel so well that there was just one sound. You can argue whether this was better or worse than one on its own. But for me it was one of those magical moments in my musical past.
Cheers
Donough
I agree with Donough, and it's easy enough to do live, face to face with the other players. I'm glad that's all I ever try to do--the machinations of the studio leave me cold.
But blending with another instrument or two in person is a wonderful experience, and the point is to hear essentially one voice.
A great example of uillean pipes and fiddle gelling together, is Ronan Browne and Peter O'Loughlin. The sounds become so bound up together at times, that it becomes mentally difficult to un-entwine them. If you're listening on headphones, though (or well-balanced stereo) they will be slightly separated, left and right. But unless you concentrate on separating them, they just grow together like, um, jasmine and honeysuckle... sorry for the florid analogy, but I used to have those two plants growing together on my balcony, and you couldn't tell which one was the climber and which was the support, since they shared those roles equally.
I shouldn't apologise for hyperbolic descriptions, though, in their case - they don't merit any less!
It is not always accordions to blame!
I sit in with a number of bands where the fiddler attack thats much, they overpower the rest.
I have a number of fiddlers sit in with my band - some play the trad unison - exactly the same as me, others take great delight in playing along in harmony, which works if you can do it.
Perhaps too many accordionists pick their box for the stridency of the reeds and if there are few couplers on the box, they can never turn it off.
I should add (though it's obvious from my posting) that I'm talking about Ronan Browne and Peter O'Loughin on CD. I haven't had the chance to hear them live - in spite of them having a fairly new CD, they don't seem to be venturing out at all... not in the UK, anyway...
I expect that it is quite a tricky thing to mike them up so that the natural balance carries over through a PA. If not impossible...
But whoever produced 'The South West Wind' did an excellent job of recording it.
It looks like the consensus is that I should enjoy the blend and forget about finding the one instrument in the mix. Taking that in mind, I relistened to the De Dannon CD and could find the fiddle if I listened tediously. It wasn't worth it. The blend sounded good and I had no business trying to strip the two instruments apart. Thanks for all the input.
Henk, we made up that name, I think, or somebody did, anyway. Kevin Burke writes (and will tell you if you ask him) that the way he plays is by tapping into the music. He says that the music is always there, and all he has to do is tap into that source and let it out by way of his fiddle.
Will had mentioned that Mr. Burke slips into a kind of zone state when he does that, with little to no preparation -- just, bam, great music. Heh.
Thank you Zina; this is about the same thing he speaks about on his web site when talking about the phrase '40 reels' when commenting the big set on 'If the Cap Fits'.
It's one of my favorite Far Side strips. I wish that I had embossed it, stuck magnets on the back and left it on a friends fridge. No matter how sneaky I would be, he would know it was me.
there is nothing I love more than duet albums - loads of the greatest albums are duets, Paddy Keenan & Paddy Glacking 'Doublin', Paul O'Shaugnessy and Paul McGrattan 'Within a mile from Dublin' Verena Commins & Julie Langan 'Fionsomethingorotherirish' (what is it again zina?), John Lee & Seamus MacGuire I could go on and on, but duets are spot on.
Doublin'! One of the best albums EVER. Let's see, bb, I think it's...er...Fonnchoi...which has something to do with fairies or other, but makes me laugh because it's pronounced more or less as "funky".
as an accordion player myself, i know that there is no excuse for overpowering any instrument, just bad musicianship, but thats in a session or live, u have recorded c.d.s and so have I so you should know that every player is given a mike, and the instruments are balanced, if the box was loud then the guy on sound should of taken him down or raised the fiddle which is easily done.
Fiddles and Accordions
Fiddles and Accordions
I recently picked up De Dannan "Bohemian Rhapsody". Although I enjoy the CD I am a little dissapointed that the Accordion seems to wash out the fiddle. I bought a Paddy Glackin CD with an Accordion player about a month back. (Forgive me for not knowing the accordion players name.) It was hard to hear any of Paddy's playing at all. The sounds the two instruments generate seem to be similar enough that the fiddler gets drowned out by the louder accordion.
It's been a while since I listened to my Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain CDs. I don't recall such a strong dominance from the accordion. I saw them live as well and the mix was good.
So I wonder. Is this a curse that can only be cured by playing different parts? Do any of you actually think it's a curse? Is it a mixing problem? If so, why would Frankie Gavin put up for it? Perhaps my ears are just not up to the task of sorting those two instruments. I'd appreciate your comments and opinions.
Mark
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I generally second your opinion, but rather like to think of the two instruments melting together. Being a fiddler myself, this helps (I am in a band with an accordion as the other melody instrument ...); if you really want to 'follow' the fiddle, the combination with the accordion is probably not the best there is.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Yeah, it takes a box player with a light touch and the will to use it to blend with a fiddle without overpowering. But then there are plenty of examples of fiddles drowning out the boxes.
It's great fun as a fiddler to play duets with a box or concertina, though, because you can swing and slide around all that crisp precision and get the best of both worlds.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I think it's worse live. Last time I saw Patrick Street, I was struck by the fact that Kevin Burke's fiddling seemed almost superfluous behind Jackie Daly's box playing. Not only was he hard to hear, but he seemed to be disengaged and uninterested -- having a bad day, maybe, or recognizing his playing barely mattered.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Cuchulain - Burke could very well have been bored, out of touch or having a bad day. We have batted around a discussions covering Kevin Burke's zone. He slips in and out of that zone fast. He is not much to watch unless you merely focus on the violin and bow. I believe you could have been a witness to the "Burke Zone".
Very good points. We have at least one problem stated but it can happen with any two instruments (including voices). A bad mix can drown out anyone. I had a friend who liked guitar and vocals. Her mixing really showed her preferences. I had to play my violin so hard that I sounded like crud and my strings were stretched by the bow friction. In another band - we upped my levels on the mic so I could play with ease with the other players (Including a piercing concertina). I don't want to drown out others - I just don't want to have to force my playing to be heard.
Mark
Mark
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Yes, I've seen the discussions about the Burke Zone. And that could have been it -- certainly, the bow was moving, anyway.
But I think it's more than just volume and mix. Presumably you could crank the fiddle way up and lower the box to the point where the dominance is the other way around. But actually getting them to mix is an elusive challenge. The instruments just sound enough similar that they tend to obliterate each other. If you have a Jackie Daly playing with a lesser known fiddler, that's probably OK, but it seems like a waste to have someone like Burke there.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I was told once by a sound engineer that when you mix down the music with separate lead players for a CD, you have to let somebody win. In this particular case, it was a mix down of a flute and fiddle. I was listening to the tracks as he worked on the mix and it seemed fairly obvious that 'something ain't right' when you allow two or more leads to have equal footing with the other.
Anyway, that was a bit of insight I received not too long ago.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I didn't think anything short of a fire extinguisher was capable of drowning out Frankie Gavin.
For the perfect blend of fiddle and box, listen to Jacky Daly and Seamus Creagh's album.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
What your sound engineer said makes some sense.
I suppose that's part of what happens when music is played in the traditional unison. Maybe the thing to do is enjoy the sound of the blend and not worry about which line is which.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
My partner is one of those sound engineer guys and it's not really letting somebody win, its developing a blend that hopefully would exist if everyone actually recorded the tracks at the same time. Kind of like singing in a choir where the idea is not to solo (even though you could) but to sound like everyone else so you create one sound. If there are two similar instruments playing a melody line then a good mix down is the one that creates the balance between the two that actually creates a unique sound that is the blend of the two. To try to pick out the fiddle, should be difficult. If you think about two players playing together, they watch and listen to each other until they are in the same groove or zone or whatever you want to call it, that's where the magic happens. A sound engineer has to try to recreate that zone.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by ANNY
Re: Fiddles and Accordions - Blending
I have to say that the blend is what it is all about. You don't have to hear the two instruments or argue about who is drowning who.
I was accompanying a fiddle and Uilleann pipes once when the two really seemed to gel so well that there was just one sound. You can argue whether this was better or worse than one on its own. But for me it was one of those magical moments in my musical past.
Cheers
Donough
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Donough
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I agree with Donough, and it's easy enough to do live, face to face with the other players. I'm glad that's all I ever try to do--the machinations of the studio leave me cold.
But blending with another instrument or two in person is a wonderful experience, and the point is to hear essentially one voice.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
A great example of uillean pipes and fiddle gelling together, is Ronan Browne and Peter O'Loughlin. The sounds become so bound up together at times, that it becomes mentally difficult to un-entwine them. If you're listening on headphones, though (or well-balanced stereo) they will be slightly separated, left and right. But unless you concentrate on separating them, they just grow together like, um, jasmine and honeysuckle... sorry for the florid analogy, but I used to have those two plants growing together on my balcony, and you couldn't tell which one was the climber and which was the support, since they shared those roles equally.
I shouldn't apologise for hyperbolic descriptions, though, in their case - they don't merit any less!
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Nell
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
What is the "Burke zone"? Tried to search, but no matches found.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Helen--jasmine and honeysuckle growing on your balcony--sounds beautiful!! It is a very poetic analogy as well.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by Andee
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
It is not always accordions to blame!
I sit in with a number of bands where the fiddler attack thats much, they overpower the rest.
I have a number of fiddlers sit in with my band - some play the trad unison - exactly the same as me, others take great delight in playing along in harmony, which works if you can do it.
Perhaps too many accordionists pick their box for the stridency of the reeds and if there are few couplers on the box, they can never turn it off.
# Posted on December 30th 2002 by geoffwright
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
I should add (though it's obvious from my posting) that I'm talking about Ronan Browne and Peter O'Loughin on CD. I haven't had the chance to hear them live - in spite of them having a fairly new CD, they don't seem to be venturing out at all... not in the UK, anyway...
I expect that it is quite a tricky thing to mike them up so that the natural balance carries over through a PA. If not impossible...
But whoever produced 'The South West Wind' did an excellent job of recording it.
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Nell
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
It looks like the consensus is that I should enjoy the blend and forget about finding the one instrument in the mix. Taking that in mind, I relistened to the De Dannon CD and could find the fiddle if I listened tediously. It wasn't worth it. The blend sounded good and I had no business trying to strip the two instruments apart. Thanks for all the input.
Mark
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Henk, we made up that name, I think, or somebody did, anyway. Kevin Burke writes (and will tell you if you ask him) that the way he plays is by tapping into the music. He says that the music is always there, and all he has to do is tap into that source and let it out by way of his fiddle.
Will had mentioned that Mr. Burke slips into a kind of zone state when he does that, with little to no preparation -- just, bam, great music. Heh.
Voila. The Burke Zone.
Zina
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Thank you Zina; this is about the same thing he speaks about on his web site when talking about the phrase '40 reels' when commenting the big set on 'If the Cap Fits'.
# Posted on December 31st 2002 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Mark:
I have a Glackin CD with a uillian piper that seems better. It's "the Whirlwind". It has a real nce version of Liverpool Hornpipe.
-dogma
# Posted on January 1st 2003 by dogmageek
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Gary Larsen said it all really in his two frame cartoon.
Frame 1 ..people lining up for Heaven get issued a harp.
Frame 2 ..people lining up for Hell get issued an accordion
Hey! Don't shoot the messenger but it made me laugh..A LOT.
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
It's one of my favorite Far Side strips. I wish that I had embossed it, stuck magnets on the back and left it on a friends fridge. No matter how sneaky I would be, he would know it was me.
Mark
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by Mark Cordova
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
there is nothing I love more than duet albums - loads of the greatest albums are duets, Paddy Keenan & Paddy Glacking 'Doublin', Paul O'Shaugnessy and Paul McGrattan 'Within a mile from Dublin' Verena Commins & Julie Langan 'Fionsomethingorotherirish' (what is it again zina?), John Lee & Seamus MacGuire I could go on and on, but duets are spot on.
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by bb
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
Doublin'! One of the best albums EVER. Let's see, bb, I think it's...er...Fonnchoi...which has something to do with fairies or other, but makes me laugh because it's pronounced more or less as "funky".
zls
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Fiddles and Accordions
yeah lets just call it 'verena'n'julie' - hey Ive got the new Siobhan Peoples and Murty Ryan CD - and thats def worth a listen too..
# Posted on January 2nd 2003 by bb
Re: Fiddles and Accordions & bad sound engineers
as an accordion player myself, i know that there is no excuse for overpowering any instrument, just bad musicianship, but thats in a session or live, u have recorded c.d.s and so have I so you should know that every player is given a mike, and the instruments are balanced, if the box was loud then the guy on sound should of taken him down or raised the fiddle which is easily done.
# Posted on January 3rd 2003 by martin t