I'm thinking about getting hand-made reeds put in to my box (it's a 60's Paolo Soprani) but i don't know whether it's worth it or not. Can anybody enlighten me? Would it make a big difference to the sound? Would it produce a much better quality sound?
well....you might check out the archives of the yahoo irishbox site for lots of reed discussion. but my understanding is that there is a difference between "true" handmade reeds, and what nowadays also gets dubbed handmade, which are really hand-FINISHED reeds, aka "tipo a mano," aka TAM, reeds. "handmade reeds" on many a product description these days, really means, TAM. i believe this is the case with castignari's "handmade" reed boxes. you have to check.
in any event, there are schools of thought about this. one is that TAM is the highest-grade reed you'd ever want for irish playing, and that "true" hand-made reeds are beautiful but fragile and can tend to break under the stresses of irish dance playing. i'm pretty sure our recently departed dear box friend jim coogan recounted that the handmade reeds on a beautiful french-made Maugein box were the only reeds that broke under the stress of his playing.....
another school even contends that high-grade factory reeds (factory reeds do come in more than one quality grade) are better in some ways for vigorous ITM dance playing even than TAM.
Yutaka at Dancemaster accordions could also install handmade(voici a mano) reeds in your Paolo Soprani. I've ordered a couple of accordions for friends from him with upgraded "tipo a mano" Italian reeds and was impressed with the sound of them . I actually liked the sound better than my Serenellini, which was triple the cost.
Rob
I will second mellow_bellows on Irish dancemenster, Michael Y knows his reeds.
Michael just finished retuning my new box (paolo soprani 'durall' reeds) from very wet (Italian made box) to very dry. The box sounds really great.
We have discussed a reed change because the paolo sopranis are a mid-quality range manufactured reed where as the tipo a mano etc are hand done. I may do a replacement down the road and He suggested to me though to consider Binci a Mano reeds because they give a superior dry tone.
I recommend you contact him. He is extremely knowledgable in matters of reeds and his prices are very reasonable. He takes a great deal of care in making sure he understands the tuning and tone quality you want.
The whole question of hand made reeds is an interesting one.
If you know what accordion reeds look like, they are steel "tongues" riveted to a metal plate several mils thick. Into this plate is cut a slot in which the reed partly moves when it vibrates.(The distance that the free end of an accordion reed travels when it vibrates is surprising - especially the lower pitches.)
Obviously it is important that the reed doesn't get caught in the slot, or hit either side of it. So the cheaper type of "machine made" reeds are made significantly narrower than than the slot. Plenty of margin for clearance, but this means some air goes around the reed, rather than setting it vibrating. This leads to slower response (a delay in the note starting when you push the bellows) especially when playing quietly. If the quality of steel in the reed is also rather resistent to movement this can be pretty bad, and also lead to a breathy sound. I have hardly seen any Italian accordions which have reeds this bad.
The thing is, a hand "made" reed isn't really hand made. It's hand fitted and riveted. (The reed itself is just a piece of spring steel.) Good fitting of the reed tongue affects the response more than the tone. Response not only in speed of reaction but perhaps stability during changes in volume and especially at very low volumes. It has been argued for the past 20 years or so that with laser and other optical technologies, machines may actually be able to consistently offer the best reed tongue to slot fit.
Other factors affecting speed of response are valves, overall compression of the accordion and key travel. The factors affecting tone include valves, the type of steel in the reed, type of wood used in the reed blocks and the shell of the accordion, accoustical design of the box etc etc.
If you like the sound of your accordion, and feel the mechanical aspects are either going to last or are worth the upkeep then you will probably love a new set of good quality reeds. The change in the sound may or may not be dramatic - and make sure you get the job done by someone with several good references, If you do this, a lot of the improvements may be down to the quality of their work, not just the reeds themselves.
I had a set of hand made reeds put in an old Hohner about 15 years ago. It sounded nearly the same, just a little smoother and much nicer to play. However, as the original reeds were in very poor condition I didn't have much to compare it to. Still playing it.
Hey Johnathon, your band are fantastic!! Beautiful music. A real breath of fresh air from some of the "Trad" bands around that are ANYTHING BUT bloody trad!!!
Yeah, listening to track 4, those binci reeds sound really lovely.
I've got a box with hand made and tipo a mano and, to be honest, I can't tell much difference between the two. I'd prefer on balance to go for good quality TAM reeds rather than the extra cost of the a mano reeds.
Unfortunately, the world of boxes is full of so many variables and inconsistant quality control that, to some degree, what you end up with is a pot luck
Box reeds?
Box reeds?
Hi people,
I'm thinking about getting hand-made reeds put in to my box (it's a 60's Paolo Soprani) but i don't know whether it's worth it or not. Can anybody enlighten me? Would it make a big difference to the sound? Would it produce a much better quality sound?
Thanks.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by pop
Re: Box reeds?
Try contacting John Nolan. he can make them and put in for you I believe, certainly can advise on the sound.
http://members.aol.com/nolanjg/
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Box reeds?
well....you might check out the archives of the yahoo irishbox site for lots of reed discussion. but my understanding is that there is a difference between "true" handmade reeds, and what nowadays also gets dubbed handmade, which are really hand-FINISHED reeds, aka "tipo a mano," aka TAM, reeds. "handmade reeds" on many a product description these days, really means, TAM. i believe this is the case with castignari's "handmade" reed boxes. you have to check.
in any event, there are schools of thought about this. one is that TAM is the highest-grade reed you'd ever want for irish playing, and that "true" hand-made reeds are beautiful but fragile and can tend to break under the stresses of irish dance playing. i'm pretty sure our recently departed dear box friend jim coogan recounted that the handmade reeds on a beautiful french-made Maugein box were the only reeds that broke under the stress of his playing.....
another school even contends that high-grade factory reeds (factory reeds do come in more than one quality grade) are better in some ways for vigorous ITM dance playing even than TAM.
i'd ask john nolan!
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: Box reeds?
.pop
Yutaka at Dancemaster accordions could also install handmade(voici a mano) reeds in your Paolo Soprani. I've ordered a couple of accordions for friends from him with upgraded "tipo a mano" Italian reeds and was impressed with the sound of them . I actually liked the sound better than my Serenellini, which was triple the cost.
Rob
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by mellow_bellows
Re: Box reeds?
pop
I will second mellow_bellows on Irish dancemenster, Michael Y knows his reeds.
Michael just finished retuning my new box (paolo soprani 'durall' reeds) from very wet (Italian made box) to very dry. The box sounds really great.
We have discussed a reed change because the paolo sopranis are a mid-quality range manufactured reed where as the tipo a mano etc are hand done. I may do a replacement down the road and He suggested to me though to consider Binci a Mano reeds because they give a superior dry tone.
I recommend you contact him. He is extremely knowledgable in matters of reeds and his prices are very reasonable. He takes a great deal of care in making sure he understands the tuning and tone quality you want.
Here is his web address info@irishdancemaster.com
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by zippydw
Re: Box reeds?
Hi Pop
I got Binci reeds put in my grey '60 soprani, delighted with them, you can have a lsiten for yourself - its the 4th track of 4 on our myspace site:
http://www.myspace.com/credemusic
The first 3 tracks were recorded on a Saltarelle, huge difference!
Jonathan
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Box reeds?
The whole question of hand made reeds is an interesting one.
If you know what accordion reeds look like, they are steel "tongues" riveted to a metal plate several mils thick. Into this plate is cut a slot in which the reed partly moves when it vibrates.(The distance that the free end of an accordion reed travels when it vibrates is surprising - especially the lower pitches.)
Obviously it is important that the reed doesn't get caught in the slot, or hit either side of it. So the cheaper type of "machine made" reeds are made significantly narrower than than the slot. Plenty of margin for clearance, but this means some air goes around the reed, rather than setting it vibrating. This leads to slower response (a delay in the note starting when you push the bellows) especially when playing quietly. If the quality of steel in the reed is also rather resistent to movement this can be pretty bad, and also lead to a breathy sound. I have hardly seen any Italian accordions which have reeds this bad.
The thing is, a hand "made" reed isn't really hand made. It's hand fitted and riveted. (The reed itself is just a piece of spring steel.) Good fitting of the reed tongue affects the response more than the tone. Response not only in speed of reaction but perhaps stability during changes in volume and especially at very low volumes. It has been argued for the past 20 years or so that with laser and other optical technologies, machines may actually be able to consistently offer the best reed tongue to slot fit.
Other factors affecting speed of response are valves, overall compression of the accordion and key travel. The factors affecting tone include valves, the type of steel in the reed, type of wood used in the reed blocks and the shell of the accordion, accoustical design of the box etc etc.
If you like the sound of your accordion, and feel the mechanical aspects are either going to last or are worth the upkeep then you will probably love a new set of good quality reeds. The change in the sound may or may not be dramatic - and make sure you get the job done by someone with several good references, If you do this, a lot of the improvements may be down to the quality of their work, not just the reeds themselves.
I had a set of hand made reeds put in an old Hohner about 15 years ago. It sounded nearly the same, just a little smoother and much nicer to play. However, as the original reeds were in very poor condition I didn't have much to compare it to. Still playing it.
Kris
http://boxteacher.blogspot.com
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by kris
Re: Box reeds?
Hey thanks guys, much appreciated.
Hmmmm..........................seems a pretty complex issue...........
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by pop
Re: Box reeds?
Hey Johnathon, your band are fantastic!! Beautiful music. A real breath of fresh air from some of the "Trad" bands around that are ANYTHING BUT bloody trad!!!
Yeah, listening to track 4, those binci reeds sound really lovely.
Thanks.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by pop
Re: Box reeds?
hi ceemonster, could you post the url for the yahoo irish box website?
thanks,
martourish.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by martin t
Re: Box reeds?
'snot a website, itsa yahoo group (aka list)
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbox/
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Box reeds?
I've got a box with hand made and tipo a mano and, to be honest, I can't tell much difference between the two. I'd prefer on balance to go for good quality TAM reeds rather than the extra cost of the a mano reeds.
Unfortunately, the world of boxes is full of so many variables and inconsistant quality control that, to some degree, what you end up with is a pot luck
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Compo
Re: Box reeds?
Oops, that may read as one box with two sorts of reeds, I actually meant to say I've got two boxes, one with TAM and one with AM
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Compo
Re: Box reeds?
jonny,
who put in the reeds for ya?
band sounds very good, fair play to ye, looking forward to hearing full album...
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by eimhin
Re: Box reeds?
Heya Eimhin,
John Brosnan did the reeds but i had it tuned by Paddy Clancy about a year after, he got a lovely sound out of it.
Album is a long way off yet, must figure out an escape plan from Athlone 1st so I can get playing more regularly again!
Jonny
# Posted on December 1st 2006 by Jonathan Roche
Re: Box reeds?
Please someone tell me who in the UK can be trusted with these things...?
# Posted on June 11th 2007 by triplet