I am not remotely interested in gadgets but am now playing in a band which needs to be amplified. Reluctantly I have got to get a pick up for the fiddle. Hope people here have some knowledge. What are the various types? What's best for which types of music (this will be songs mostly with some tunes). Do they clip on, get screwed in (glued?). What's a 'radio set up', and what would you need by way of amplifier for this to work. What kind of prices are we talking.
Basically (and I don't want to get all techie, others will no doubt be doing that) the two reasons a mike is better than a pick up are:
1. A mike will make a truer sound. (more like like violin actually sounds.
2. Nothing is attached to the violin, no glue, blue tack, double sided sticky tape, clamps, wires etc. You will have to make no modifications, temporary or permanent to your instrument.
Downsides though are:
1. You can't get as loud with a mike.
2. You won't be ablwe to jump around the stage like a crazy pop star.
Yet again, I find myself totally agreeing with you, Michael - go for a mike.
However, I have a similar dilemma myself right now. Having used a contact mike (bug, definitely not ideal) for years, I now want a mike, but I would like one that would let me move around a bit (if not like a "crazy pop star"). So I thought some kind of mini swan neck, with a VERY temporary clamp would be a good idea - but I just can't find one that doesn't cost as much as the damn fiddle! (And it's not a bad fiddle).
So, for now, I'm stuck with the standard mike, which I have an annoying tendency to bang into every now and then ...
I really like "The Band". It velcros afround the fiddle just on your side of the bridge. It's very quick to set up, it doesn't mar the finish, you don't split your bridge trying to jam a piezo plate in there, you can store it in your fiddle case, and the sound really isn't bad.
Now, I wouldn't cut a CD with it, but it's great for ceilis. After all, you're in a noisy room, playing through the house PA, the crowd's howling with delight (one hopes). You'll want a pre-amp (I looove the Pre_sonus tube thingy).
The Microvox swan neck microphone gives a nice sound. Although it is sold seperately, the dedicated preamp is a necessary part of the system so £130 or so, BUT it is extremely susceptible to feed-back. Anything more than gentle sound reinforcement, and it's howling. Real world, I'd say The Band.
Different notes come off different parts of the fiddle, so no single point contact device is going to be satisfactory.
If you don't use a shoulder rest (hurrah) The Band is a little inconvenient, but works best if you have the cable coming off the treble side. John Littler of Headway says it makes no difference.
Nice sound. Clips onto the chinrest. Only there when you need it.
For me, the difference between mics and pickups boils down to these points:
1) Pickups can be pretty good, but they only carry one zone of the very complex vibrating system that is a violin. At their worst, cheap (or poorly placed) pickups will sound like a cheap electric guitar. At their best, they sound reasonably close to a microphone.
2) Microphones sound more natural by definition (because they are simply amplifying the actual sound of the instrument rather than trying to synthesize it from one zone of vibration), but are susceptible to feedback from the speakers in a loud room. Different mics try to address this with different pickup patterns (cardiod, etc), but at the end of the day, a microphone amplifies the sound it picks up. If that sound is the speakers or monitors, you've got problems..
So it really breaks down into this:
If you are expecting to play in a loud situation (noisy bar, rock-concert, etc), and you care more about not feeding back than you do about tone quality, get a pickup.
If you do most of your playing in more controlled settings, you'll sound better with a decent microphone.
If you want the best of both worlds, get a mic/pickup combo, though this comes at the expense of extra time and energy for tweaking the mix every time you play.
benhall1: "...the band - I think you've summed it up OK - it's adequate ..."
The sound may not be the very best, but it is pretty good. To me, its main disadvantage is that it is a little unwieldy and takes some getting used to. But the huge advantage is that it requires no modification to any part of the fiddle, and can be fitted and removed as required.
The problem with a mic - even a unidirectional one - is that it will pick up background noise as well as the fiddle. So, in a noisy venue, if the fiddle is too quiet, and you turn up the mic, you turn up all the noise as well, resulting in a poor sound. A mic is ideal for a concert hall, where the audience sit and listen in silence.
A good compromise is a close-miking system such as Microvox, where the mic is attached, via a short gooseneck, to the body and directed at one of the soundholes, or some other position on the belly of the instrument.
I got a pick up from www.riml.biz recently. i find really execellent. not that expensive and never any problem with feedback or anything like that. was recommended by quite a few people to me.
Anybody know what Eliza Carthy uses ? She had one of the minigooseneck types, heard her in both restrained and noisy concert settings, no feedback problems.
Basically, you replace the chinrest with a chinrest that has a built-in jack socket. The transducer is connected to the bridge. The instrument cable is connected to the chinrest and then slung over your shoulder - seems very user-friendly.
Great to see that a query about fiddle pickups gives just as much varied information as a similar query on a guitar website.
The fact that there are so many different treatments usually means no-one has the cure - so to speak!
It's all about that trade-off between quality and feedback and much of that balance will depend on the venues you play in as well as the sound-man and speaker positioning. When something has so many variables its no wonder the responses are so varied.
The hard thing is getting a pickup to try before you buy. It's easy to borrow a mic.
I move towards the idea of a pickup on the instrument and an external microphone. The soundman can balance these depending on the degree of 'noise'. Using less of the mic signal as the venue gets louder. Also it may work well where you get the pickup sound in your monitor speaker but the mic sound is the predominant signal used for the 'House' speakers. But this will require two DI's and enough spare inputs on the PA which can be a problem.
I recently purchased a pickup handmade by a chap named Anton Teese in Melbourne Australia. It cost me about $100 local currency, is called the 'Antbug', and works really well. In fact, having used and heard quite a few different setups over the years I would say that this is the first non-mic pickup I've heard that actually makes the fiddle sound like a fiddle. The guy says it doesn't need a pre-amp but I'm using it through a BBE Acoustimax pre and it sounds great. No feedback and lots of gain. The pickup sits under the bass foot of the bridge, it affects the acoustic sound only a little but is easy the put on and take off.
This is Anton's email: wilton@techinfo.com.au.
Hi
I recently did some research on how chin rests effect the acoustic sound of my violins, I found that the ebony ones muted the sound more than the plastic types. This led my to try the same thing with the carpenter jacks that are supplied with the Fishman and LR Baggs pickups, these muted the acoustic sound of the violin quite a lot. This might be worth considering if you fit a system that cannot be removed easily to play an acoudtic gig,
Good Luck
Mike
Hullo,It is interesting for me to see mention of my Antbug pickup on the world wide web.
If anyone is interested they can contact me at
wilton2@tpg.com.au
Problems with a fiddler being heard against amplified guitars can be fixed and you do want to sound "accoustic".
My frustration led me to piezzo electrics, not expensive, no feedback and you can talk to the band without being heard out front.
Fiddle pick ups
Fiddle pick ups
I am not remotely interested in gadgets but am now playing in a band which needs to be amplified. Reluctantly I have got to get a pick up for the fiddle. Hope people here have some knowledge. What are the various types? What's best for which types of music (this will be songs mostly with some tunes). Do they clip on, get screwed in (glued?). What's a 'radio set up', and what would you need by way of amplifier for this to work. What kind of prices are we talking.
Any info would be greatly appreciated
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Pól
Re: Fiddle pick ups
It depends entirely on how loud you want to be. If at all possible, I would suggest not a pick up at all, but simply a decent microphone.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Thanks for your reply, I am a complete novice with this. What would be the difference
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Pól
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Basically (and I don't want to get all techie, others will no doubt be doing that) the two reasons a mike is better than a pick up are:
1. A mike will make a truer sound. (more like like violin actually sounds.
2. Nothing is attached to the violin, no glue, blue tack, double sided sticky tape, clamps, wires etc. You will have to make no modifications, temporary or permanent to your instrument.
Downsides though are:
1. You can't get as loud with a mike.
2. You won't be ablwe to jump around the stage like a crazy pop star.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Yet again, I find myself totally agreeing with you, Michael - go for a mike.
However, I have a similar dilemma myself right now. Having used a contact mike (bug, definitely not ideal) for years, I now want a mike, but I would like one that would let me move around a bit (if not like a "crazy pop star"). So I thought some kind of mini swan neck, with a VERY temporary clamp would be a good idea - but I just can't find one that doesn't cost as much as the damn fiddle! (And it's not a bad fiddle).
So, for now, I'm stuck with the standard mike, which I have an annoying tendency to bang into every now and then ...
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle pick ups
I really like "The Band". It velcros afround the fiddle just on your side of the bridge. It's very quick to set up, it doesn't mar the finish, you don't split your bridge trying to jam a piezo plate in there, you can store it in your fiddle case, and the sound really isn't bad.
Now, I wouldn't cut a CD with it, but it's great for ceilis. After all, you're in a noisy room, playing through the house PA, the crowd's howling with delight (one hopes). You'll want a pre-amp (I looove the Pre_sonus tube thingy).
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Steve Austin
Re: Fiddle pick ups
but did it cost $6,000,000?
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle pick ups
... assuming that one's for me, Michael, no it didn't, but still, I thought my budget of £300 or so (for the mike) would get me something I'd like.
btw, Steve, I've tried the band - I think you've summed it up OK - it's adequate ... but I'm fussy ...
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle pick ups
The Microvox swan neck microphone gives a nice sound. Although it is sold seperately, the dedicated preamp is a necessary part of the system so £130 or so, BUT it is extremely susceptible to feed-back. Anything more than gentle sound reinforcement, and it's howling. Real world, I'd say The Band.
Different notes come off different parts of the fiddle, so no single point contact device is going to be satisfactory.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle pick ups
If you don't use a shoulder rest (hurrah) The Band is a little inconvenient, but works best if you have the cable coming off the treble side. John Littler of Headway says it makes no difference.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Hi Pól,
You're at the start of a long and winding road, have a look here for some guidance on mics and pic ups.
http://www.sonicviolins.co.uk/FAQs.asp
The best advice I can give is ALWAYS "try before you buy" and in a live situation.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Titch {=/=}===++
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Really now. This question should go in the FAQ. It seems we answer it often:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8230
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6675
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9330
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10616
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1446
That said, I (and most of the Irish/Scottish fiddlers in town) use one of these:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTATM350
Nice sound. Clips onto the chinrest. Only there when you need it.
For me, the difference between mics and pickups boils down to these points:
1) Pickups can be pretty good, but they only carry one zone of the very complex vibrating system that is a violin. At their worst, cheap (or poorly placed) pickups will sound like a cheap electric guitar. At their best, they sound reasonably close to a microphone.
2) Microphones sound more natural by definition (because they are simply amplifying the actual sound of the instrument rather than trying to synthesize it from one zone of vibration), but are susceptible to feedback from the speakers in a loud room. Different mics try to address this with different pickup patterns (cardiod, etc), but at the end of the day, a microphone amplifies the sound it picks up. If that sound is the speakers or monitors, you've got problems..
So it really breaks down into this:
If you are expecting to play in a loud situation (noisy bar, rock-concert, etc), and you care more about not feeding back than you do about tone quality, get a pickup.
If you do most of your playing in more controlled settings, you'll sound better with a decent microphone.
If you want the best of both worlds, get a mic/pickup combo, though this comes at the expense of extra time and energy for tweaking the mix every time you play.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Fiddle pick ups
benhall1: "...the band - I think you've summed it up OK - it's adequate ..."
The sound may not be the very best, but it is pretty good. To me, its main disadvantage is that it is a little unwieldy and takes some getting used to. But the huge advantage is that it requires no modification to any part of the fiddle, and can be fitted and removed as required.
The problem with a mic - even a unidirectional one - is that it will pick up background noise as well as the fiddle. So, in a noisy venue, if the fiddle is too quiet, and you turn up the mic, you turn up all the noise as well, resulting in a poor sound. A mic is ideal for a concert hall, where the audience sit and listen in silence.
A good compromise is a close-miking system such as Microvox, where the mic is attached, via a short gooseneck, to the body and directed at one of the soundholes, or some other position on the belly of the instrument.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by ragaman
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Microvox, as comment above, nice sound, but extremely prone to feedback.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle pick ups
I got a pick up from www.riml.biz recently. i find really execellent. not that expensive and never any problem with feedback or anything like that. was recommended by quite a few people to me.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by a_fiddle
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Anybody know what Eliza Carthy uses ? She had one of the minigooseneck types, heard her in both restrained and noisy concert settings, no feedback problems.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Fiddle pick ups
One of those sound-post pick-ups are incredible,but they are expensive...
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by t byrne
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Have a look at this: http://www.skyinbow.com/
Basically, you replace the chinrest with a chinrest that has a built-in jack socket. The transducer is connected to the bridge. The instrument cable is connected to the chinrest and then slung over your shoulder - seems very user-friendly.
# Posted on November 20th 2006 by lukegarry
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Another option is from a company called Pickup The World. It slides under the bass bridge foot.
DB
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by fiddler59
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Love my LR Baggs
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by anastasiadesroches
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Great to see that a query about fiddle pickups gives just as much varied information as a similar query on a guitar website.
The fact that there are so many different treatments usually means no-one has the cure - so to speak!
It's all about that trade-off between quality and feedback and much of that balance will depend on the venues you play in as well as the sound-man and speaker positioning. When something has so many variables its no wonder the responses are so varied.
The hard thing is getting a pickup to try before you buy. It's easy to borrow a mic.
I move towards the idea of a pickup on the instrument and an external microphone. The soundman can balance these depending on the degree of 'noise'. Using less of the mic signal as the venue gets louder. Also it may work well where you get the pickup sound in your monitor speaker but the mic sound is the predominant signal used for the 'House' speakers. But this will require two DI's and enough spare inputs on the PA which can be a problem.
# Posted on November 21st 2006 by Donough
Re: Fiddle pick ups
I recently purchased a pickup handmade by a chap named Anton Teese in Melbourne Australia. It cost me about $100 local currency, is called the 'Antbug', and works really well. In fact, having used and heard quite a few different setups over the years I would say that this is the first non-mic pickup I've heard that actually makes the fiddle sound like a fiddle. The guy says it doesn't need a pre-amp but I'm using it through a BBE Acoustimax pre and it sounds great. No feedback and lots of gain. The pickup sits under the bass foot of the bridge, it affects the acoustic sound only a little but is easy the put on and take off.
This is Anton's email: wilton@techinfo.com.au.
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by zookman2
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Hi
I recently did some research on how chin rests effect the acoustic sound of my violins, I found that the ebony ones muted the sound more than the plastic types. This led my to try the same thing with the carpenter jacks that are supplied with the Fishman and LR Baggs pickups, these muted the acoustic sound of the violin quite a lot. This might be worth considering if you fit a system that cannot be removed easily to play an acoudtic gig,
Good Luck
Mike
# Posted on November 23rd 2006 by Mikea
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Got to agree with Traddie. This is a really cool system, and the best I've heard.
"The best fiddle microphone I've used" - Ciarán Tourish of Altan
reveiws: http://www.fiddlingaround.co.uk/fiddlepro.html
http://www.eaglemusicshop.com/guitars/brands/results/details/index.asp?eagleID=4576&SubCatID=9
http://www.calvinvollrath.com/index.php?page=home/news_detail&news_id=5
manufacturer:
http://www.riml.biz/ - check the testimonials page.
# Posted on November 24th 2006 by Gael Force
Re: Fiddle pick ups
Hullo,It is interesting for me to see mention of my Antbug pickup on the world wide web.
If anyone is interested they can contact me at
wilton2@tpg.com.au
Problems with a fiddler being heard against amplified guitars can be fixed and you do want to sound "accoustic".
My frustration led me to piezzo electrics, not expensive, no feedback and you can talk to the band without being heard out front.
# Posted on December 25th 2007 by Anton Teese