I am 64 and have been playing the fiddle for about 6 years. I play about 1 hour per day and over the past few months have noticed an ache in my bowing elbow and some twinges in my other wrist that plays the notes. Interestingly it doesn't bother me when playing, just when I move the arms in certain ways when I'm not playing. Have others had the same problem and if so do they just live with it is there a fix?
Sigh! I'm not quite 64 but I've begun to notice that holding the flute through those long sets is getting harder to do and mildly painful in the shoulders and elbows. I don't notice it that much when the craic is on in a session, but I do whilst playing at home. When I picked up the flute 15 years ago, I suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome, caused by other non-musical activities, but took care of that early on. It will have to get much worse for me to do anything about it. I guess its just the curse of the aging process.
Jim, I have perpetual joint problems and I would be glad to tell you some things that seem to work for me, but if you can find a doctor who works with athletes and musicians, you’ll be in better hands.
For me, gentle stretching before, during and after a session of playing or practicing makes a big difference.
I have carpal tunnel syndrome from doing sign language years ago, and learned to do the following:
a. Never continue playing longer than 30 minutes at a time (20 minutes is better). Force yourself to take a 10-15 break, because it's the prolonged periods of activity that do the worst damage.
b. Ice anything that hurts after you stop playing. This keeps down any swelling and your blood circulating easily.
c. Stretching and isometric exercises will keep you flexible and strong.
Good luck. These kinds of pains can really have an impact on your life---there are lots of things I don't do anymore, like push-ups, blow-drying my hair, etc., because they hurt too much. Just be careful and don't be afraid to baby yourself---pain is a sign that your body needs a rest.
Also, maybe there are changes you can make to the way you play to be more ergonomic? Maybe the expert fiddlers here can tell you more about that.
Since it only hurts when you aren't playing, just play all the time!
Seriously, lots of good suggestions already. If you do go to a doc maybe ask some local (professional ?) violinists for suggestions. A doc who really knows such problems could be most helpful.
Yes, if you go to just any doctor, they probably won't know a lot about the specific issues of playing an instrument. Ask around and google for specialists.
I have been plagued with "guitar shoulder", from the right arm up on a guitar body for 43 years. No wonder. i switched to smaller bodied guitars, which is not an option for flute or fiddle, but most of all, I do certain yoga postures, esp. before bed after playing out.
I stretch the shoulder and back muscles, things with arms out to the max. It seems I rarely get much pain anymore. I go into insanely hard contortions for about 10 minutes evey night, it keeps everything loose and limber. It also helps relieve tension in general, physical stretching and then letting go.
Yoga is good, it builds muscles too. Don't do it to where it hurts though, build up gradually. A good yoga teacher or book can tell you what moves will loosen what areas.
it may not work for everything but sure helps the guitar shoulder problem.
Yoga, Tai Chi - all these things help you relax. I used to get a very painful neck from being hunched over a computer all day long. After I learnt to relax with Tai Chi it stopped and has very rarely recurred. The main benefit of Tai Chi I found was becoming permenatly aware of my posture and being able to correct it before pain set in - and I'm a spring chicken in comparison to some of the posters!
The advice for beginners in Guitar and Mandolin is, if your fretting hand hurts, lay it open on a flat surface - again relaxation.
More recently I got elbow pain when I was working on my tremelo - until I learnt to relax (now that's a tough one - relaxing as you develop a fast sustained tremelo).
I know old age doesn't come on its own, as the saying goes, but maybe there is an added element of anticipating pain and then tensing up, creating a vicious cycle.
Currently, though, my only pain comes from getting a severe whack with a sabre across the knuckle of my plectrum finger while fencing.
If you make sure that your techniqe isn't causing/aggravating the problems, and your doctor doesn't come up with a cureable cause, then it's a matter of arranging your playing to minimise further damage. Exercise to loosen up muscles, Alexander Technique, not doing too much in one go - anything that makes you more comfortable and able to play. I've got back problems and my bowing elbow suffers from having been the first thing to hit the road when I got knocked off my bike by a car. Sometimes I have to be sensible and leave a session early (well . . .) and I hate having to give in, but I'm taking the long term view. I want to keep playing as long as possible.
I had a problem just like this a couple of weeks ago. Some time last year I started having problems with tendonitis (definitely fiddle related) but it stopped bothering me after a while. Then, three weeks ago, my wrist started hurting worse than it ever had before. It barely hurt to play fiddle, (certainly didn't keep me from playing a gig that night) though I couldn't hold a pencil to write, and if I moved my wrist in certain ways it really hurt. I went to see a doctor, and she told me to keep it wrapped up in an ACE bandage. I kept it wrapped every day for two weeks, and now it's perfectly fine. Maybe that'll help... I can definitely sympathize with you. I hope you feel better...
Well, it could be old age, or it could be the change in the weather - cold, damp weather always seems to make the aches worse. As a fellow fiddler (and no expert on yoga, tai chi or Alexander, although that all sounds like excellent advice) I would recommend trying to keep everything relaxed as you play. Keep checking for signs of tension and then relax that part of your body. I read on another thread, and I can't remember who posted it, that you should imagine your bowing arm as a length of rope and keep it loose and flexible I tried that and it really helped, although I'm still guilty of tensing up on the tricky bits. Hope that helps!
You guys think you got it tough... last August I tripped and fell on my left hand snapping the big bone in my wee finger in two and severely over-flexing the adjoining ring finger seriously traumatizing the first knuckle. My hand was in a cast for a month and my fingers were stiff, sore and seemed dead when it came off. I'm still struggling with getting the use back and haven't worked out the stiffness completely -- and they ache when playing the Anglo concertina. Anyone who plays that contraption will understand how important the ring and wee finger on your left hand is.
i knew a guy who took up knitting after some kind of hand damage, forget what exactly. It really helped get mobility back. Did it while watching TV. Whatever keeps things moving may in theory loosen the fingers up again.
"Anyone who plays that contraption will understand how important the ring finger and wee finger on your left hand is."
Too true, Jack. I have two little osteophytes growing out of the joint on the little finger of my left hand just below the finger nail.
This is the finger I use for low D on the concertina and I´m sure the osteoarthritis is due to constant playing and use of that little finger, although, age-wise, I´m certainly in the field for this type of ailment.
I take Glucosamine sulphate which practically eliminates any pain.
When I went to the hospital for x-rays the first doc told me it was broken and sent me to a second to get the cast. The second asked me if I was right handed (my left hand had the broken finger) but I told her I was a musician and it didn't matter because the instrument I play relies heavily on the left hand and that finger. She said, "YOU'RE A MUSICIAN?!!!" and she told me to hold on while she fetched some specialist on his way to his car. She returned with him and he put my hand under some sort of real-time x-ray unit (flowometer?) and told me he would have to inject the finger with painkiller and re-set it or it might not be usable for playing music. I gulped and nodded... he injected... and then under the x-ray thing began pushing and twisting. Yikes!!!
The next doctor that followed up and removed the cast a month later said it was healing perfectly and he asked what exactly this instrument was and how is it played. After doing my best to explain it to him he said, "I can't think of any better therapy than that." So I've been doing plenty of therapy. I'm happy to report that even though the fingers are still a bit stiff I seem to be coming along just fine.
Moral of the story: Don't be shy about mentioning that you're a musician if you find yourself in a similar situation.
This is why I gave up on the 'tina after one day. It felt like Tendinitis City to me. Well, that and the fact that the d@mn thing just can't be played. They do it with smoke and mirrors, you know.
Bowburner. "bowing arm...length of rope" I think it was me who said that, on June 5 2005 in discussion #6920, and more recently on October 29 2006 in discussion #11634.
Phantom... I know a (former) bookbinder whose career was ruined by a broken hand that was not set properly. major lawsuit, I think she got some good damages too. It really was a botch job as it turns out, not just the fact they didn't know what she did. She sure told them she lives by her handwork. Was a really high end binder, fine bookbinder as they say, all that gold and leather work. Real shame.
I know one fiddler who has his hands insured. Really. A professional though, sole livlihood.
Yes Lazyhound that's right, it was you! Now credit can be given where it's due. I tried it and found it really useful, especially for my bowing shoulder which I seem to tense up first. It's amazing what you learn on this site!
Twirling a pair of chinese balls can help- the tinkling metal ones made by the healthy ball company-(yes they are called this!) they exercise the tendons and muscles of the hands and forearm and are often recomended by physiotherapists. Definately the compression bandage helps and developing posture awareness. Sioban Peoples had an interesting way of dealing with tendonitis, she was playing with two fingers (first and middle) and used positioning, it didn't seem to hold her back at all, jaw dropping!
omg I broke my fingers more than two years ago and they are still stiff. I was only in a cast for ten days, too, not a whole month, and one of the fingers that came out all fecked up wasn't even broken to begin with. wtf! well, they are getting better now, but it's taking forever, and my stupid ass orthopedist tried to claim I was "born like that." I didn't even have a physical therapy referral till this year.
aches and pains
aches and pains
I am 64 and have been playing the fiddle for about 6 years. I play about 1 hour per day and over the past few months have noticed an ache in my bowing elbow and some twinges in my other wrist that plays the notes. Interestingly it doesn't bother me when playing, just when I move the arms in certain ways when I'm not playing. Have others had the same problem and if so do they just live with it is there a fix?
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by jimrockireland
Re: aches and pains
Sigh! I'm not quite 64 but I've begun to notice that holding the flute through those long sets is getting harder to do and mildly painful in the shoulders and elbows. I don't notice it that much when the craic is on in a session, but I do whilst playing at home. When I picked up the flute 15 years ago, I suffered from carpal tunnel syndrome, caused by other non-musical activities, but took care of that early on. It will have to get much worse for me to do anything about it. I guess its just the curse of the aging process.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by jtrout
Re: aches and pains
Jim, I have perpetual joint problems and I would be glad to tell you some things that seem to work for me, but if you can find a doctor who works with athletes and musicians, you’ll be in better hands.
For me, gentle stretching before, during and after a session of playing or practicing makes a big difference.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: aches and pains
I have carpal tunnel syndrome from doing sign language years ago, and learned to do the following:
a. Never continue playing longer than 30 minutes at a time (20 minutes is better). Force yourself to take a 10-15 break, because it's the prolonged periods of activity that do the worst damage.
b. Ice anything that hurts after you stop playing. This keeps down any swelling and your blood circulating easily.
c. Stretching and isometric exercises will keep you flexible and strong.
Good luck. These kinds of pains can really have an impact on your life---there are lots of things I don't do anymore, like push-ups, blow-drying my hair, etc., because they hurt too much. Just be careful and don't be afraid to baby yourself---pain is a sign that your body needs a rest.
Also, maybe there are changes you can make to the way you play to be more ergonomic? Maybe the expert fiddlers here can tell you more about that.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by kennedy
Re: aches and pains
Oops, that should say expert flute players...
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by kennedy
Re: aches and pains
never mind. I'm confused. It's been a long day.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by kennedy
Re: aches and pains
Since it only hurts when you aren't playing, just play all the time!
Seriously, lots of good suggestions already. If you do go to a doc maybe ask some local (professional ?) violinists for suggestions. A doc who really knows such problems could be most helpful.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by curamach
Re: aches and pains
Yes, if you go to just any doctor, they probably won't know a lot about the specific issues of playing an instrument. Ask around and google for specialists.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: aches and pains
I have been plagued with "guitar shoulder", from the right arm up on a guitar body for 43 years. No wonder. i switched to smaller bodied guitars, which is not an option for flute or fiddle, but most of all, I do certain yoga postures, esp. before bed after playing out.
I stretch the shoulder and back muscles, things with arms out to the max. It seems I rarely get much pain anymore. I go into insanely hard contortions for about 10 minutes evey night, it keeps everything loose and limber. It also helps relieve tension in general, physical stretching and then letting go.
Yoga is good, it builds muscles too. Don't do it to where it hurts though, build up gradually. A good yoga teacher or book can tell you what moves will loosen what areas.
it may not work for everything but sure helps the guitar shoulder problem.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: aches and pains
Yoga, Tai Chi - all these things help you relax. I used to get a very painful neck from being hunched over a computer all day long. After I learnt to relax with Tai Chi it stopped and has very rarely recurred. The main benefit of Tai Chi I found was becoming permenatly aware of my posture and being able to correct it before pain set in - and I'm a spring chicken in comparison to some of the posters!
The advice for beginners in Guitar and Mandolin is, if your fretting hand hurts, lay it open on a flat surface - again relaxation.
More recently I got elbow pain when I was working on my tremelo - until I learnt to relax (now that's a tough one - relaxing as you develop a fast sustained tremelo).
I know old age doesn't come on its own, as the saying goes, but maybe there is an added element of anticipating pain and then tensing up, creating a vicious cycle.
Currently, though, my only pain comes from getting a severe whack with a sabre across the knuckle of my plectrum finger while fencing.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by JonB
Re: aches and pains
If you make sure that your techniqe isn't causing/aggravating the problems, and your doctor doesn't come up with a cureable cause, then it's a matter of arranging your playing to minimise further damage. Exercise to loosen up muscles, Alexander Technique, not doing too much in one go - anything that makes you more comfortable and able to play. I've got back problems and my bowing elbow suffers from having been the first thing to hit the road when I got knocked off my bike by a car. Sometimes I have to be sensible and leave a session early (well . . .) and I hate having to give in, but I'm taking the long term view. I want to keep playing as long as possible.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by c.g.
Re: aches and pains
Have a chai tea with your tai chi as well. Very nice.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: aches and pains
I had a problem just like this a couple of weeks ago. Some time last year I started having problems with tendonitis (definitely fiddle related) but it stopped bothering me after a while. Then, three weeks ago, my wrist started hurting worse than it ever had before. It barely hurt to play fiddle, (certainly didn't keep me from playing a gig that night) though I couldn't hold a pencil to write, and if I moved my wrist in certain ways it really hurt. I went to see a doctor, and she told me to keep it wrapped up in an ACE bandage. I kept it wrapped every day for two weeks, and now it's perfectly fine. Maybe that'll help... I can definitely sympathize with you. I hope you feel better...
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: aches and pains
Well, it could be old age, or it could be the change in the weather - cold, damp weather always seems to make the aches worse. As a fellow fiddler (and no expert on yoga, tai chi or Alexander, although that all sounds like excellent advice) I would recommend trying to keep everything relaxed as you play. Keep checking for signs of tension and then relax that part of your body. I read on another thread, and I can't remember who posted it, that you should imagine your bowing arm as a length of rope and keep it loose and flexible I tried that and it really helped, although I'm still guilty of tensing up on the tricky bits. Hope that helps!
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by bowburner
Re: aches and pains
You guys think you got it tough... last August I tripped and fell on my left hand snapping the big bone in my wee finger in two and severely over-flexing the adjoining ring finger seriously traumatizing the first knuckle. My hand was in a cast for a month and my fingers were stiff, sore and seemed dead when it came off. I'm still struggling with getting the use back and haven't worked out the stiffness completely -- and they ache when playing the Anglo concertina. Anyone who plays that contraption will understand how important the ring and wee finger on your left hand is.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: aches and pains
Ugh... phantom.... awful.
i knew a guy who took up knitting after some kind of hand damage, forget what exactly. It really helped get mobility back. Did it while watching TV. Whatever keeps things moving may in theory loosen the fingers up again.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: aches and pains
"Anyone who plays that contraption will understand how important the ring finger and wee finger on your left hand is."
Too true, Jack. I have two little osteophytes growing out of the joint on the little finger of my left hand just below the finger nail.
This is the finger I use for low D on the concertina and I´m sure the osteoarthritis is due to constant playing and use of that little finger, although, age-wise, I´m certainly in the field for this type of ailment.
I take Glucosamine sulphate which practically eliminates any pain.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by murfbox
Re: aches and pains
When I went to the hospital for x-rays the first doc told me it was broken and sent me to a second to get the cast. The second asked me if I was right handed (my left hand had the broken finger) but I told her I was a musician and it didn't matter because the instrument I play relies heavily on the left hand and that finger. She said, "YOU'RE A MUSICIAN?!!!" and she told me to hold on while she fetched some specialist on his way to his car. She returned with him and he put my hand under some sort of real-time x-ray unit (flowometer?) and told me he would have to inject the finger with painkiller and re-set it or it might not be usable for playing music. I gulped and nodded... he injected... and then under the x-ray thing began pushing and twisting. Yikes!!!
The next doctor that followed up and removed the cast a month later said it was healing perfectly and he asked what exactly this instrument was and how is it played. After doing my best to explain it to him he said, "I can't think of any better therapy than that." So I've been doing plenty of therapy. I'm happy to report that even though the fingers are still a bit stiff I seem to be coming along just fine.
Moral of the story: Don't be shy about mentioning that you're a musician if you find yourself in a similar situation.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: aches and pains
This is why I gave up on the 'tina after one day. It felt like Tendinitis City to me. Well, that and the fact that the d@mn thing just can't be played. They do it with smoke and mirrors, you know.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: aches and pains
Bowburner. "bowing arm...length of rope" I think it was me who said that, on June 5 2005 in discussion #6920, and more recently on October 29 2006 in discussion #11634.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by Trevor Jennings
Re: aches and pains
Phantom... I know a (former) bookbinder whose career was ruined by a broken hand that was not set properly. major lawsuit, I think she got some good damages too. It really was a botch job as it turns out, not just the fact they didn't know what she did. She sure told them she lives by her handwork. Was a really high end binder, fine bookbinder as they say, all that gold and leather work. Real shame.
I know one fiddler who has his hands insured. Really. A professional though, sole livlihood.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: aches and pains
Yes Lazyhound that's right, it was you! Now credit can be given where it's due. I tried it and found it really useful, especially for my bowing shoulder which I seem to tense up first. It's amazing what you learn on this site!
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by bowburner
Re: aches and pains
Twirling a pair of chinese balls can help- the tinkling metal ones made by the healthy ball company-(yes they are called this!) they exercise the tendons and muscles of the hands and forearm and are often recomended by physiotherapists. Definately the compression bandage helps and developing posture awareness. Sioban Peoples had an interesting way of dealing with tendonitis, she was playing with two fingers (first and middle) and used positioning, it didn't seem to hold her back at all, jaw dropping!
# Posted on November 19th 2006 by noodlebean
Re: aches and pains
Tai Chi is wonderful for stretching every tendon in your body. And is suitable for all age groups. Try it
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by MollyB
Re: aches and pains
I prefer Chai Tea myself......
# Posted on November 22nd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: aches and pains
well "grandpa" you can probably have both but not at the same time!
# Posted on November 23rd 2006 by MollyB
Re: aches and pains
omg I broke my fingers more than two years ago and they are still stiff. I was only in a cast for ten days, too, not a whole month, and one of the fingers that came out all fecked up wasn't even broken to begin with. wtf! well, they are getting better now, but it's taking forever, and my stupid ass orthopedist tried to claim I was "born like that." I didn't even have a physical therapy referral till this year.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by doctor sam adams
Re: aches and pains
My wife does Tai Chi, and my favorite move to watch is the one where she looks like a mime trapped in a box.
# Posted on November 30th 2006 by Phantom Button