After reading the excellent advice in various parts of this website, and wading through my new/latest version of WMP, the tunes slow-down function works a treat.
Am I being a philistine in saying that being able to slow down tunes in pitch is one of the best things ever to happen for learning ITM?
I didn't quite realise how important this ability was, until I was able to hear in slow time the actual relationship between ornamentation (or the absence of it) and rhythm in each tune.
Seems to me, this is what going to masterclasses is really all about - learning what written music can't really convey.
Even though it might be sacrilege to some to say so, learning technique, not just the tunes, not just from a CD mind you - but actually being able to slow it down in pitch, and then listening to every great player you have on CD is an incredible learning opportunity. Can only add to ITM, I would have thought.
My recommendation: slow em down, learn the technique and rhythm, not just the tune.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
The few times I've used a slowdown facility on my sound editor (Cool Edit 2000) is when I've been transcribing a tune into ABC and needed to confirm some of the fine detail. That, for me, is its only practical use.
I don't use slowdown for tune learning from recordings - whether live or from cds. I think it's far better to keep on listening to the tune and everything eventually emerges and gets absorbed by the brain. Don't forget that when you're learning a tune by ear you're not trying to get a mathematically accurate copy of the tune into your head - you're not learning a classical sonata at the piano with a teacher there to rap you over the knuckles if you get one note out of place - you're getting at the essence of the tune so that it becomes part of you for you to develop as you want.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Hey, lazyhound, if your learning a tune just as *the essence* (I presume you mean just the notes, not listening for rhythm and ornamentation), isn't that being fairly mechanical about it?!
I mean, ITM is after all, dance music isn't it, and was/is meant to support the dancers in terms of rhythm and tempo. A lot of that will be about ornamentation I would have thought.
I learned most of my tunes by ear, but I have to say it was a long process, and for most it looks like, longer the older you are when you start. Even those players who can listen to a tune and pick it up by ear and play it faultlessly at fast speed had to start somewhere - presumably when they were very young, or maybe some of them are in that even smaller group of players who have that as a natural ability.
My point is that with technology, like slow-down software, more people will be able to learn ITM in a way that will make them much better players in the longer term.
Like learning to type, or do machine shorthand, or learn piano, for examples, you don't learn just by watching the fastest and best players and then expecting that you'll be able to do that any time soon, without slowing everything down, practising ad nauseum, and gradually get faster and more accurate.
I wish slow-down software was around when I started learning Irish music. I have no doubt, no that I can play tunes at a faster pace, that I'd be a much better player now, have more tunes down - and be better able to learn by ear now.
Slow-down software, I think, is definitely the way to go for ITM learners, in addition to eventually becoming adept on your instrument.
I'm not so sure that, for most people, it is true, like lazyhound says that if you "keep on listening to the tune everything eventually emerges and gets absorbed by the brain". You gotta be able to hear and understand what you're listening to!
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I don't know where to start, and I'll probably say it all wrong ... but I'll have a go anyway ...
I haven't tried 'slow-down' software, and I can't see the point. I can't see how you could possibly learn the music that way. You'd be learning notes, not music, surely? You need to hear the dance in the music, and that means listening, and keeping on trying, and eventually it does, as Trevor says "emerge".
And ornamentation is NOT, in my opinion, the essence of the tune. A lot, and I should probably say, all of the ones I've spoken to over the years, of older fellas, who know what they're talking about, have said in no uncertain terms that the simpler the tune the better. Now, it happens that I put a lot of ornamentation in, but that comes along once I've got to grips with the tune - not long after, but after nevertheless. "Ornamentation" - it's kind of in the word really isn't it?
When you can get the rhythm and tempo sounding really good - for dancers - WITHOUT ornamentation - THEN you're a great player.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
benhall, try learning typing at 90 words a minute! Try learning piano from a Mozart sonata - try learning ITM at 100 beats per minute. *you* might be able to do it now, either because you've been playing a long time, or you are a *natural* - but for most mortals, you learn by slowing things down, getting good at it, then speeding it up - then you can be part of the *elite*.
Slow the *tune* down to learn the *tune* - along the way you'll hear ornamentation played by really good players - if it's in there (and it usually is) - and you can practise putting that in (if you want to).
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Yeah, I noticed. They're all motor skills though, and a similar learning process. Hey, learning a language is very much like learning music - they are hearing skills aren't they. You can learn them from paper too though, almost most 2 year olds don't! Whatever though, the way we learn these things is that we start slow and speed up and get more accurate - we crawl before we walk, right?
With ITM, start slow, build up. With typing, start slow, build up. With language, start slow, build up.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, I feel I must try to reign back this seemingly boundless enthusiasm:
The first thing that comes to mind is to question how people learned before we had the confounded contraption. It seems to me that if you have any degree of respect for the music, some degree of at least interest should be awarded a simpler aural approach.
And there are many holes in the arguments for, that I have heard. As Ben Hall says, playing music is not typing. The only relevant skill in typing is merely hitting the keys in the right order. Try saying that about music.
And the another trouble with slowing down electronically is that everything is slowed down. When you play a tune slowly, the articulation you give it should not be. Your cuts and taps should still be clean, your fingers should lift off and on the strings/holes crisply, not in slow motion. Your breaths should be short and percussive, you bow strokes deliberate etc.
And the analogy to language should be a good one, however, do children learn to speak in slow motion? Of course they don't. They flail around until it comes. Yes, you learn to read, music or letters, in slow motion, but that is not playing or speaking.
The simple fact is that listening to something in slow motion will not help you hear how it goes, the single most important thing in music.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's something to be said for both sides (obviously from this discussion). You should be able to pick up tunes by ear at full speed, which is an amazing asset in sessions. However, there is nothing wrong with slowing down a tune to learn from. I have learned several ornaments that would otherwise be WAY to fast for me to pick up by ear this way. Also, when learning a tune (often I listen to it at full speed, decide I like it, try to learn it, fail, get the music off here, listen to it some more, and then slow it down) it helps to play along with the recording. I don't know about any of you, but I can't often keep up with the full speed of a professional (Leahy's B Minor, anyone?) and slowing it down helps. It's also just fun to play along with the backup.
It is important not to copy the tune verbatim from the CD, but being able to mimic great players can only help you in the long run.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
On llig leahcim's logic, if you were a student of his/her, be prepared to get thrown in the deep end - Sink or swim, survival of the fittest, yeah? If you flail around and then succeed, you're ok, if you don't, well you'd just be another no-talent loser?
Thankfully, education processes are more enlightened these days!
People learn to speak one word at a time, i.e. *s l o w l y* . Learning to *play music by ear* is recognising (one note at a time, if you slow the analysis of this process right down!) where that *sound* is on your instrument. Same as hearing someone say a word and knowing what keys to type to represent that sound in a symbol.
The difficulty in playing by ear is that it is a skill to be learned, and if trying to acquiring it from full speed ITM, it is going to happen but won't happen very visibly at all for a very long time. Playing a tune from sheet music, you will have a product quickly, but it delays, if that's the only method you use, learning the skill of playing by ear.
Slowing the music down and *then* learning to play along, without the benefit of sheet music, is the best way to train your ear and still get a satisfying product to keep you motivated to learn.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I couldn't learn a foreign language by listening to native speakers on a talk radio program or by watching TV in that language. No matter how many times I tried. Can you?
But when I lived in Mongolia, if someone spoke clearly and slowly to me, I could. And that's what I need to learn music by ear.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I think Martin Hayes for one would definitely agree, mickray.
If you can hear a tune played slowly, and hear the same tune done by various good players, including *virtuousos*, you'll be able to hear what other techniques they are using as well.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Kheelch, I think that is exactly how children learn language actually - with the important difference that they are part of the process and try out what they hear. People learn languages really really well when they are children, and they do it by hearing only, obviously, and then trying it out, one word at a time, and the easiest sounds first.
The age after which acquiring these skills starts to become significantly slower is surprisingly young. After around 20 years of age, *around*, it becomes a lot slower, learning music included. It can obviously be done, because most of us have learned ITM after that age, it is just a lot slower. I would venture to say that the older you are when you starting learning this, the slower you should make the music to give yourself a break, and a chance of learning it, without feeling like an abject failure. You can't learn things very well at the fastest speed you hear them at, and it's ok to know that. So no need at all to feel inadequate at sessions, if that is a problem. Everyone sitting in front of you went through the *slow phase*, although because some, a very small minority outside only of Ireland probably, learned too young to be able to remember that they did!
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I wasn't necessarily thinking of Martin Hayes (who plays very fast, sometimes--anybody who thinks he only plays slowly just hasn't been paying attention).
I was just trying to imagine any music teacher--of any style--saying, "Make sure you play fast. That's the most important thing."
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Definitely Martin Hayes plays fast sometimes, anyone of his expertise will. The important thing is that he is one of the few who plays slow, and for very good reasons...he is being a teacher. So let's pay attention, after all, we don't have to pay anything else except the price of the CD eh!
The thing about Martin Hayes slow playing is that is *still* hard to do what he does in each tune. That's because there's a lot more to a tune than the speed, and he wants us to hear that.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, the difficulty with anything is you have to learn it.
But you are putting a preposterous proposition where "playing a tune from sheet music, you will have a product quickly". I don't understand where you get this from. Children do not learn to speak by reading first. Or by being spoken too very *s l o w l y*
My three year old daughter can't read, but she points to the first line of a book and runs her finger along it and recites, "Once upon a time." Even if 5% of the time it actually reads "Once, long ago, in a land far far away". Do I say to her "No, you've got that wrong" and try it again very s l o w l y? Of course not, you just get on with the story.
The deep end is where we all start. Vulnerable small children in a world of daunting adults. Did it bother us then?
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Trouble is, Michael, most of the time its adults trying to learn ITM, and a lot of other things. Try throwing a classroom full of adults in the deep end - you haven't have you. They'll soon throw you in if you tried teaching things that way.
I would say that the vast majority of ITM learners, if you asked them if they would be more likely to be able to learn a tune from sheet music or by ear - *learners* mind you - would say sheet music, even if they can't read music yet - because that is a visible system which they will recognise is a path provided to follow, whereas *playing by ear* seems undefined to them.
Playing by ear is preferable, I fully agree, but it is almost impossible to acquire for adults in ITM at full tilt, and end up with a good ability with the tunes. Most people would give up in despair long before they got there that way.
With sheet music, sure, they will learn a tune, but most might then find it is a frustrating difficulty trying to get that tune up to *session* or just fast speed.
I'm sure you do well with teaching your children, Michael. Parents can potentially be the best teachers because they understand their own children the best.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Jeez, I didn't realise that Liz Doherty, Kevin Burke, Gerry O'Connor, Martin Hayes, Jerry Holland, Dinny McCloughlan etc were all so wrong. They all taught by slowing the tunes down.
Damn. I guess I wasted my time.
Experienced players shouldn't need it slowed down, true, but when you're learning? Of course you do. Micheal Coleman obviously taught Andy McGann incorrectly as well. He played the tunes slowly and then guess what? Oh no! he wrote them out for him! Herecy!
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I reckon a workout is a good idea, somebody should have thought of it earlier. Start slow and work up to very fast. then you can play anything in between. It certainly works with bodhran learners, they sure stuff up when the pace is really on but get a lot more accurate when you slow it back down. Must go and feed the chooks now, they seem to appreciate my efforts.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
It's phenomenal to watch someone who's learned how to play by ear just listen to a tune, even really fast, get the pattern, try out a few notes, then launch into the tune. That's better than learning by sheet music for sure. Trouble is, it's a very advanced skill, and something that you'd do better learning from a very young age.
For the later starters, yep, slow it right down initially, until you can play comfortably, and then start speeding it up. More chance of learning it accurately as well, even if you don't put any ornamentation in at that stage.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Ah, childhood. I remember it well (not really--very vaguely, more like). But it seems that I was less self-conscious, and my teachers applauded all my efforts, no matter how clumsy.
Now, as an adult beginner in this music, I have had to eat a lot of humble pie. It's a struggle for me, I have to fight for every little improvement.
And when you're in a serious fight, you make use of any weapons you can grab: including sheet music (imperfect, but of some use) and slowdowners (ditto).
I think the important thing is to find good examples to listen to (for me, lately, Paddy in the Smoke and Tribute to Joe Cooley, among others) and keep trying to figure out how this stuff works.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's a CD called "The Session" (?) too - I'd say if aspiring sessioneers slowed that right down and learned a few of those standard sets, and went along to their local, they'd feel right into it.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Slow practice, which everyone from beginner to master needs to do in order to acquire technique and coordination, is not the same as listening to a slowed-down tape or cd.
A teacher playing a couple of measures slowly to a pupil in order to get a point over is also quite different to mechanically slowed-down music.
If you train your ear to really focus on music being played in real time (i.e. not being slowed down) then you will indeed hear the detail in the music; just as an artist has trained his eye to see shapes, colours and textures that are not seen by most people, even though those features are there.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
PS, all those musicians back through the centuries - how did they learn music without the "benefit" of slowdowners (I'm talking about learning by ear, not by the dots)? By those three things I mentioned in my last post - slow practice, slow illustration of technical points by a teacher, and training the ear to really listen. That's how. Perhaps it did take a little longer than learning by the modern artificial "aid" of the slowdowner - I don't know. But to me one thing is certain: there is nothing to be gained in learning music by the modern frantic rush to get things done as quickly as possible. It's like rain: slow steady rainfall over a period of time is far more effective than the sudden downpour resulting in flash floods that don't get absorbed by the soil.
Another thing: the best test of whether you really "have" a tune is if you can, in your mind's "ear", hear it and play it as slowly or as fast as you like, pause it, examine it and make any alterations you want.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well yeah, lazyhound, I meant to say - slow down the tune, - then play along with it, yep, not just listen.
Point is, you'll be training your ear whether you listen to normal, fast or slowed down speeds, but when listening (and playing along) to slow speed the process is a lot easier for most learners, *plus* you get that all-important chance to translate from what you hear to position on the instrument for each note in turn, which helps enormously with learning the instrument as well.
If you're trying to learn to play by ear by listening (and playing along with) fast versions, that is going to take a very long time for most adult learners, probably longer than people will be able to go without getting quite disillusioned, thinking that they'll never be able to get there.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Centuries ago though, lazyh, how many people didn't get to learn because they couldn't get to grips with fast versions - or maybe the whole genre was slower then, yes?
I think the brain *tells* you it knows a tune, when you play it in your "mind's ear" but then when you actually play it, some parts of it, you find you actually don't know it. I agree, playing it over in your "mind's ear" is an essential tool, but very easy to convince yourself that you have it down, when you don't. Some people will be a lot better at this than others though. Same problem though, if you're trying to learn it from a fast version, it is going to take a very long time to get it right even in your mind's ear.
Centuries ago too, just like today, in some places e.g. Ireland, there's going to be a lot of learning opportunities around with the number of learners and teachers that were around.
Slow downers are great in the global world of ITM. Maybe you wouldn't need them so much if you were living in Ireland and learning the music there.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
lazyhound, I'm a bit confused--earlier you said "The few times I've used a slowdown facility on my sound editor (Cool Edit 2000) is when I've been transcribing a tune into ABC and needed to confirm some of the fine detail."
I don't see how that is different from someone learning the tune from a recording--and needing to confirm some of the fine detail.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"I would say that the vast majority of ITM learners, if you asked them if they would be more likely to be able to learn a tune from sheet music or by ear - *learners* mind you - would say sheet music, even if they can't read music yet - because that is a visible system which they will recognise is a path provided to follow, whereas *playing by ear* seems undefined to them."
Duijera, that's just not true. Let me learn by ear any day. I'm just learning to read and sheet music is like eating vegetables right now (well, actually, I like vegetables, but you get the point...).
You've been making a big fuss over the formidable difficulty of learning by ear. First of all, you don't need to learn a fast reel at speed. But if you listen to it enough, you can slow it down in your mind to where you can play it phrase by phrase at any speed you want. Try it. Sit down with your cd player (one where you can pause and rewind and replay---I use iTunes on my computer---so I'm not knocking technology), pick your favorite reel, one that you have running in your head all day, and play the first 3 seconds of it. Find the first note on your instrument, and you can usually play most of the phrase that goes with it because you know how the tune sounds and you'll find the notes by relative pitch. Do it again if you miss something. Play the phrase slowly, not with the cd, just on your own, then listen to it again to make sure you've got it right. Then do the next phrase.
It's phrases you're looking for, not individual notes---if I had to hunt one by one for every single note in a reel I think I would dread doing it, too. The notes are connected to each other by pitch, and if you know the tune, if you can hum it maybe, then you can figure out where the next notes will fall. I'm just a beginner on fiddle but the better I get to know the instrument, where the thirds and fifths are along the different scales, the easier it is to figure out where the melody of a tune is. And I'm sure that after I know a few hundred tunes and I'm familiar with the patterns in the music, it will be easier still.
I've done this with about a dozen tunes so far and it's actually fun. It might take me a couple of hours, and then I might forget most of it and have to do it all over again later in the week. But I'll tell you what, they're in my head now for good. I still can't play the faster tunes along with the cd's, but that will come when my technique improves.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"But in the end, a good fiddle player will learn in the way that Michael Coleman learnt - by listening to other people play, absorbing rather than imitating, mastering the basic techniques and then forgetting them, taking the music into the heart and letting it out again."
- David A. Wilson
from - Ireland A Bicycle and a Tin Whistle
All methods of learning are useful in my mind. (I hardly need say that listening comes first since this is, afterall, music.)
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Hey kennedy,
Great advice, good system. Seems to me though, it's a bit of a variation on slowing down the whole tune and letting it run through, in your case, you're concentrating on bits of it at a time - that's fine too.
"I still can't play the faster tunes with the cds, but that will come when my technique improves." What do you mean by "technique" though? I think it'll probably happen when the time between hearing the note(s) and then translating it to position on your instrument gets to the point where it matches that of the players you're listening to on the cd. If that can happen by playing along with the whole-tune-slowdown, or learning it in phrases, I'm not sure. Be a good experiment though to find out.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
What I mean by technique is basic motor coordination. Jumping around the fingerboard, accurately hitting notes at speed. Sometimes I'm lucky now if I hit the right string! And then there's the bow---it doesn't help to get the right notes with my left hand if I'm not bowing the string properly to match, and this is exponentially harder to do at speed.
There's a difference between matching notes with a slowed-down cd and mentally picking it apart phrase by phrase to learn it. If you learn the tune and you know it, then you don't need to play along with it for a reminder on what it sounds like---you can start paying attention to things like phrasing, rhythm, ornaments, etc.---really see how the player expresses it and see if you want to play it that way too. Or not. You can listen to different versions of it and compare them with what you know already.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Sometimes I'm lucky if I hit the right string" - kennedy.
Sounds to me like you're trying to play too fast, kennedy. Slow it right down and concentrate on hitting the right strings, then start to ramp it up a bit. I teach a keyboard skill (no not typing or music), and that's rule number 1 - accuracy, not speed, to start with. Speed is really only lack of hesitation - in an ITM context, this would mean knowing the tune, but equally important no hesitation on exactly where to put those fingers so that it is absolutely accurate. Best way to do this is by slowing right down and concentrating on accuracy - even if you can hear the tune faster in your mind. Try it, it works.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There was the beginnings of a interesting analogy of how an artist sees the world above. I'd like to elaborate:
When people who can't draw attempt to render what they see, instead of drawing solid shapes of varied colour and shade, they draw hard outlines around objects. A tree trunk becomes two parallel lines, the sun becomes a circle instead of a disk, etc.
Slowing down music to learn it has a similar effect. Rather than experiencing the music as shapes and phrases, it becomes a laboured task of merely waiting for the next change in pitch. Like a bad drawing, mostly white paper with crude abrupt edges. Listen to how the midi player here plays tunes and you'll know what I mean.
And the musician makes the same mistakes of proportion as the bad drawer. A hand will be drawn out of proportion to an arm, because the concentration given the hand is separated from the concentration given the arm. The only way to achieve the proportion is to view the whole.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
ditto "thedon" as above. Couldn't agree more. Maybe those players are good drawers too.
What I noticed above slowdown software (not the midi player obviously) is that you can hear the rhythm of the tunes accentuated too as well as the ornamentation really well defined. So when you go back to the normal speed, it is very obvious.
Ever noticed how an air in a session, nicely played, without texture, colour, shade (in a musical context) gets a really good reception from an audience, often more so than super-duper fast reels? (Provided the air is played slow of course!) People can actually hear all those things when a tune is slow.
Isn't a better analogy that tunes played really fast, which miss out on the "light and shade" because the musician is concentrating on speed (because that's all they could ever hear), is like a "bad drawer" as you say?
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Mickray, when I transcribe a tune into ABC from a recording - normally a tape from a session or workshop - I can usually do it by ear. If there're one or two notes I'm not sure about even on repeated listenings that wouldn't bother me if I was learning the tune for myself - I'd play a note that fitted in (yet another version of the tune!). However, if I'm doing an ABC transcription for uploading on TheSession then I try to get it as accurate as possible before posting it. If I can't get back to the original player(s) in cases of doubt (happily fairly rare), that's when I would slow down that section of the tune on my sound editor. Let's call it "audio forensics" - sounds better than "slowdowner"
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I'm sorry there didgeree do, but you completely got the wrong end of the stick.
You say that with slowdown software "you can hear the rhythm of the tunes accentuated as well as the ornamentation really well defined". Not at all, you are actually hearing the rythm extended, not accentuated, a very different thing indeed. And you are not hearing the ornamentation well defined at all. You are hearing it laboured.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Wow, Michael, considering slow down software is as useless as you maintain, it's a wonder people find it so helpful! Then again, you seem to be one of the very few people saying this.
I'm really glad I'm not convinced by your views, and have found such a great tool to learn more tunes, quickly, by ear, and break out of the tyranny of dependence on rapid-fire sessions for the learning.
Slowing down the tune doesn't eliminate the rhythm and the ornamentation like the midi player with which I thought you draw the comparison.
Have you learned all your tunes through slow down software, Michael, and you just don't want to say?
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I've learned a lot of tunes, especially in the beginning, by having them slowed down for me, but not by a machine, by a person. And I do use "amazing slow downer", but never to slow down tunes, to change pitch, mostly from Eb to D (Bb to A - same thing).
And I'm sorry, the reference to the midi player was clumsy.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Wow. So we're not supposed to use sheet music to learn tunes from, because it's not the "right" way to learn and being tied to the "dots" means we don't know how to play the tune. And we're not supposed to slow down tunes to figure out the notes because then we're just getting pitches and not the tune.
So that leaves learning the tunes at full tilt off an album or at a session? Well, that's rather discouraging as most of us need to hear things slowly at first in order to make sense of it.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'll also add that I think slowing tunes down via electronic means can aid your ear in figuring out the relationships between notes at a speed that YOUR ear can work at. Then you can speed things back up once you know the basics of the tune.
It's a good way to train your ears when you're not used to using them to pick up tunes.
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I'm sorry Crysania, but you missed out the best way to learn tunes, especially if you are a beginner. Get some one to show it to you. Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune.
"How does that bit go again?" is probably the most often heard phrase.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
People will use whatever tools are availabe to them. There’s no point in saying it shouldn’t be done. It *will* be done.
If you learn a tune with the help of a slowdowner, at some point you’ll stop using the crutch and just play the tune. If the “slowdowned” learning process introduced some quirkiness into your playing, it’ll most likely get cleaned up as you live with the tune and play it with other people. If you love and respect the music, it’ll turn out okay in the end.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Michael
I very strongly agree with just about everything you've posted on this thread. And I'm more than mildly irritated by Dubh's habit of ASSERTING ... repeatedly ... rather than reasoning.
Referring to Michael's points, you say "you seem to be one of the very few people saying this".
Firstly, that's probably only in relation to the almost numberless posts from yourself which only say the same, fairly pointless thing, which goes along the lines of "slow-down software is great - it would make everyone a better musician". This, apart from being self-evidently nonsense, also ignores the obvious and best way to learn the music, which in any case is about more than just learning a few tunes - or even many tunes - and that is ... LEARN IT FROM SOME REAL PEOPLE!
And secondly, I imagine that all the people out there not responding to this and weighing in on Michael's side of the argument are only abstaining out of a sense of ennui at the ridiculousness of the suggestion.
Going back to your original question: yes - you ARE being a Philistine.
PS Congratulations Michael on managing to stay calmer and more restrained than I seem to have managed!
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'll just add my 2d:
It seems to me that perhaps Mr. Gill has heard recordings slowed down too far, which is why he refers to "the laboured task of waiting for a change in pitch." I think if one slows down the recording so much that one can no longer listen to it as a coherent peice of music, then it's lost it's value as a learning tool. Ideally, it seems one should slow the recording down just enough that each note discernable from the next, but not so much that the sense of the tune disappears.
This is not directly relevant, but I recently learned some tunes from the Happy To Meet... CD by James Cullinan and PJ Crotty, and used software to slow the tunes down a bit. I just couldn't quite catch some of the notes at the recorded speed, and in some of these tunes, it's the details that really define the tune. Anyway, I was really struck by the fact that even when slowed down, they still sounded perfectly natural. There was no flubbing or faking of passing notes, which you would certainly hear if you slowed down a recording of me! I was really impressed, and inspired to try to bring a higher level of focus into my own playing. And I suppose I may not have had that insight without the ability to slow down the recordings.
So, my very humble opinion: slowdowners and their ilk = a useful tool if used appropriately.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Weighing in as a beginner-to-intermediate player.....
I tried learning tunes off of recordings at fullspeed with very slow success. It would take days and weeks to figure out one tune.
Recently I found out how to slow things down with Windows Media Player, and in a matter of an hour or two I am able to learn a tune and play it up to pace. This is a MUCH more satisfying process, and I believe my rythym is better this way as well.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Nobody seems to have mentioned the value of the slowdowner as a means of analysing your own playing.
As an amateur with no means of exposure to sessions, I like to record myself then slow the recording down to see whether at slow speed it passes "the test" - that is, it comes out clear and rhythmic with clean intonation, when it is slowed down. It is amazing how revealing slowing yourself down can be.
So .... jump down my throat if you like, but as well as slowing down the tune (and I use Audacity for this, so I can increase or decrease the tempo at will), it means, in the absence of anything remotely resembling an Irish session, I can also have a few tunes with the greats - and at MY tempo - so they don't have to feel put out by a "learner" mucking up their music. Its absolutely painless to them.
So, come on guys and gals, you are just using another thing to broadcast your "superiority". Give the strugglers a break, and let the common people use the tools that are available to them without the snide remarks. Of course, learning directly from the greats is best, but to some, an impossible dream.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
On this matter, Rm llig is right. If you learn a tune "slowly" by playing along to a computer, it will be difficult to speed it up. If you can carry the tune in your head, and reproduce it slower when trying to play it, you will eventually "naturally" get quicker.
But it was just too darned fast. I got sheet music from this site to get the general layout of the tune, but quickly put it aside because the differences were too distracting.
So I ripped the audio from the YouTube clip, put the .wav file into Audacity, and slowed it down about 50 percent, just to get most of the details right. I used the shift+play feature to loop a few measures at a time, just like having a teacher play a few bars slowly. That was about three weeks ago.
I just now played along with it at full speed, and did OK. I'm not saying I caught every little variation--especially those two little glancing double stops during the second time through--but because I have learned all the basic notes of the melody, and there's no second-guessing, I can play the melody at that tempo. So I have to say that learning from a slowed-down recording worked, for me. Blame any remaining glitches on my natural clumsiness, not on technology.
I'm sure I read somewhere--very likely here--that the true test of whether you really know a tune is whether you can play it at any tempo.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, mickray, I think you just summarise the whole thing perfectly. And who would have thought that a chat about slow down software would actually develop into a scrap - but hey, I kinda new that it would on this site!
Anyway, I used the slow down software for the first time about three weeks ago, in my 16 years of learning and playing ITM, and found it an absolute bonus! Maybe because I can play at session tempo quite a few tunes, and have already developed that, that I don't find any problem at all slowing a tune down that I don't know, practising from that, and then bringing it up to speed pretty quickly. Fairly similar to yourself and others by the sound of it.
I've learned quite a bit, once again, from this website as a result of this post. It's a great website, but the scrap potential is part of the process by the look of it. Actually, I haven't seen any other forum where that potential is so close to the surface, or so easily stirred into action! It's almost formulaic here - if you want to stir a scrap here, it's very easy. It's almost a sort of an *extension* of some sessions, but hey, it is called "the session", eh. It's good craic all round though, scraps and all. Take all the advice available here with thanks to all who make it possible, but don't ever take the aggro at all seriously, is my advice. Pretty much the same as a session really.
Oh, and yeah, there's slow down software available to help you learn these days, how good is that!
Cheers guys, and thanks. I'm off to slow down a few tunes I've been grappling with for a long time... played by real people.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's nothing wrong with learning tunes slowed down like this. To answer someones question about what we did before these contraptions - well there were the "tape recorders", which though they might not all be slowed down allowed for the same deliberate dedication to learning a single tune right. Before that there were the LPs which a whole generation of players learnt from slowing them down approx half speed and dropping the pitch by an octave so it fitted the instrument without changing the pitch.
Besides which I've heard of many many great players Junior Crehan, Joe Cooley, Coleman, Sean Ryan etc etc deliberately playing a tune real slow within the context of a session (in the pub) so that someone else would have it right. Just because that doesn't happen much now, and sessions tend to be such a hooley (that the space and time for tune swapping is all the rarer) doesn't make learning a tune slowly using devices like the amazing slow downer, wmp, or cooledit in any way wrong.
Also, as pointed out above, the way people teach is exactly by playing the tunes slowly, initially piecemeal, and then speading them up and putting them together with ornamentation once the tune is gotten. While learning the tunes by process of osmosis is possible amongst the best players, generally its not always done well, and it depends very much on the quality, clarity and consistency of the players you are learning the tunes from.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Jamie, I think the main beef by some here is that it's fine to learn a tune slowly, provided the slow playing is done by someone sitting right in front of you, but definitely not (apparently) by using slow down software. I think I've got it right!
It would be really good to get the views of some of the professional players on this.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Dear bodhran bliss,
Your assumption that people who use slowdowners actually learn the tune slow to begin with just doesn't hold water. Of course it is possible and probable that said people can learn the tune at speed and then slow the tune down to the point of being able to pick it up, then gradually or suddenly speed it up. No different from in real life. In the "olden days", the 70's, I too tried and learnt some tunes from LPs played at 16 rpm (not very well mind you, but I tried as a total beginner), and my draws are full of learning tapes of people who played tunes at speed, then at slow, medium and at speed. Picked out some passages, ornaments at slow speed, etc. This, at speed, is what this should sound like at slow speed. That's the way its done - is it not? Have also heard people play new tunes, see that noone is joining in, slow down to allow others to pick them up and play along. When the tune is got by those who don't know it, then off the tune goes again with people joining in.
The beauty of being able to tinker with the tempo without altering the pitch is that it works much quicker, you can tailor your learning to your own needs (not someone else's agenda) and you can pick and choose the artists and tunes you want to learn from. The flexibility is incredible. As I said, not everyone has access to tunes or artists, but with the use of computer software, one is able to learn any tune from any artist who has made a CD, DVD, UTube movie, tape, or MP3, WAV etc etc. The choice is only limited by ones own aspirations. That, according to me, is great stuff, for a person who's link to Irish Traditional Music is here, through the computer and 'the session'.
Or don't you think that people like me have any right to it????
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
and, as I said, you can even check on your own playing at speed, by slowing it down and listening to it ... and, and, and (sorry about the enthusiastic stutter), as mickray's example, it means people can learn from and play along with their idols, the tunes they want to learn/play and analyse their own playing to their own betterment. What is wrong with that? Crikey!
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
All very aggressive, dear me. All I did was give a humble opinion. Never once did I suggest I was right, just suggested that for me slowing down a tune to learn it, and then having to play fast at a session, I couldn't do it. Unless I slow it down in my head, and not on a computer. And I am not talking about the bodhran, obviously, anticipating another vitriolic post.
I have been playing "My Lagan Love" for years as a slow air, find it incredibly difficult to speed up to say play along with Horslips rock version. Now that may be by limited ability, on the mandolin he hastily added, but to MY mind I imagine that would apply to loads of people.
Just my humble opinion. No need for angry replies.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
BB
There was not a single "aggressive" word in my post, nor was it "an angry reply", nor need you "anticipate another vitriolic post". The underlying assumption of your argument just doesn't hold water, as I said. That's all.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There is one thing that is common to all the posters here who like the computer slow down thing, and that is, "that it works much quicker". Says it all really, no patience
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Okay, I don't even know how to use this slow-downer thing, but the question that keeps popping up in my mind is---(other than distorting the speed of ornaments), what is the difference between playing a slowed-down phrase of a tune and having a real live player play the same phrase slowly for you?
I have more thoughts on this discussion, but I wanted to start off with that question first...
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Good question, but I think I mentioned it earlier, "When you play a tune slower, your cuts and taps should still be clean, your fingers should lift off and on the strings/holes crisply, not in slow motion. Your breaths should be short and percussive, you bow strokes deliberate etc."
It's in the phrasing. A real player playing slower will still articulate everything cleanly. Electronically slowing it down gives it a very laboured sound that actually sounds more like a beginner. And I'm afraid that beginners copy this feel.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Fair enough, that makes plenty of sense. So what if the player is not a beginner (already has good technique) and is just using the software as a reference for the notes of the tune?
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
That's exactly right, kennedy. I think the main problem with Michael's perspective is that he is thinking that "slow down software is only for beginners", and that they may not be trusted to get everything right.
Michael's comments, as well intentioned as they might be, remind me of a teacher who is telling a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that you need to get all those cuts and taps right, as a sort of prequisite to learning the tune...whereas the beginner will be thinking, "gee I have a hard enough time trying to hear the actual tune than to worry about advanced stuff right now."
As far as I can make it work, WMP only slows down to 50% anyway, which makes it sound like a slow reel by Martin Hayes. You can certainly still hear all the phrasing, ornaments, cuts, etc, etc. (That is, if you have learned about those things yet - beginners may not have, others may or may not have.)
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Works quicker and more accurately than learning a tune after several bustling noisy sessions, hearing several versions at the same time, hearing several versions of them at different times, a number of them that turn out later to be unhelpful if you put your trust in them. Its nothing to do with patience, or a lack thereof, but everything to do with wanting to learn a tune well and play it how it should be played.
I'm lucky enough to be able to pick up a tune very quickly and have a good ear. If i'm sitting between two good players playing approximately similar versions of a tune I haven't heard before e.g a two part reel, I'll have it picked up at the fourth or so time through. At most of the sessions I go to, the tunes aren't presented like that. The versions vary, the playing too, and even being able to hear a tune above the guitar fest is a challenge and tunes rarely ever get played more than twice. I could still get the gist of the tune quickly enough to play along. I could even vary it accordingly, adding in what I though appropriate bowing and ornamentation, but I'd be way out when I came to playing it in the VIcky bar in Glasgow, for example.
As for your assesment of the laboured sound of people who've learnt with slowed down tunes - I would have to say you have no evidence for that and counter that my experience of those who've learnt that way is quite contrary.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
That to me seems to be the implication, pretty clear from what he has said. If that isn't his message, I'm actually not sure what it is then. He says he uses the slow down software to learn various aspects of tunes, gee they can't be all bad then eh!
Anyway, each to their own. It looks like the software is rapidly becoming a learning method of choice right around the world.
I think you'll really get a lot from it, kennedy...but hey, I won't say any more, and let you find out for yourself.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Spot on again, Jamie.
The luxury of having one's own personal tunes trainer is inaccessible for most people. The only widely available tools have been sheet music and recordings - and whatever the downsides of these, they have enabled ITM to be available globally for the listening and learning. Slow down software is part of the same process, and a damn good one, because it helps develop 'playing by ear' in probably the most efficient way possible. More power to it! (or maybe that should be less power, if you are slowing them down!)
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, yes. My concern is with beginners. And it is a similar concern with beginners and music notation. I understand that an eager beginner possesses that most wonderful thing, the insatiable appetite, and I'd really hate it if I was pouring cold water on that.
However, I cannot stress more the value of patience. I guess it comes down to one of my long standing gripes about there being too many tunes. Yes it's daunting when, as a beginner, you sit in a session and hear a couple of hundred tunes you don'y know. Can I blame the search for a short cut into it?
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
... and, I would be that sort of teacher who would tell a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that they'd need to get all those cuts and taps right.
But not as a sort of prequisite to learning the tune, but simply as vital a part of playing the tune as getting the notes in the right order and getting your phrasing even and percusive, etc.
Not that I wouldn't be praising the beginner for getting the notes in the right order, for example, I just wouldn't patronise them by giving them the impression that they were any where near playing it well.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
A cut is a cut is a cut. Clean is "clean" if it is clean slowed down. If you cut a note clean at full speed (whatever that is), it remains clean slowed down to a reasonable degree. A cut is a cut is a cut. Or it isn't a cut.
"Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune." Ha ha ha!
"... and, I would be that sort of teacher who would tell a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that they'd need to get all those cuts and taps right." Crikey! Here we go again.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"I'm sorry Crysania, but you missed out the best way to learn tunes, especially if you are a beginner. Get some one to show it to you. Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune."
That's all well and good. But unfortunately, I do not play sessions every night of the week. So you're saying the only way for someone to learn tunes is at a session? Or by getting together with other musicians? That's not always a possibility. Sure, it's a great way to learn tunes and most people I know make use of it.
But when you're at home, alone, surrounded by your recordings, with only your whistle or fiddle or box or whatever, what are you suggesting someone does? Nothing. Don't practice because using a slowing down software isn't good enough?
Also, to those that noted you can't speed up a tune when learned slowy from an electronic thing, I completely disagree. I've done this any number of times. It gives me the basic notes -- I already know the rhythm and feel of the tune and I know, from experience, what to do about "ornaments." Once I know them, speeding it up to a proper tempo is simple. A beginner who doesn't know much about how the music sounds wouldn't be able to do it, but any experienced player could.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Sorry, too, Michael, that you use software to alter the pitch. A player of your undoubted 'calibre?' should be able to tune up, down, or whatever, or play with different hand positions in different keys (ie Bb or Eb), and not have to use pitch altering facilities on a computer! Its a shortcut! What you need is patience. Are the old timers, such as Joe Cooley wrong to have played in these keys? Should they have played in concert pitch for your benefit?
Well I remember the thread when you were challenged about your right to decide what is "right" in Irish Traditional Music. Yet, you are still in there doing it. I know I would much prefer to learn from someone much less dogmatic than your good self. Give me a good recording any day, from the people whose playing I do respect, or live recordings of real people teaching me first hand. My agenda, not yours. And as for the "Just ask someone at a session" joke, I will reiterate again and again, not everyone on the yella board has the opportunity. Give those that don't a break. People have the "right" to use the tools at their disposal to get the music that they feel passionately about - and NOONE should be humiliated here by silly assumptions above about their abilities. Who should use slowdowners, who shouldn't - its twaddle. The whole argument doesn't hold water.
Give it a rest, fir crying out loud. I'm gone to play a few tunes with Stockton's Wing - some tunes I brushed up using the slowdowner and can now play along with them at full tilt. They aren't going to tell me I'm wrong, if fact it isn't going to bother them at all, and in the absence of a session for 1,500 km radius - that is, in any direction (just so you know) - sessioning with players of calibre is the next best thing. Heaven.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I don't think I ever said don't, I just said I thought it unwise, and gave as many reasons as I could. Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it"...LL
This probably says it all really. You get the feeling that this argument is not so much about slow down software as some other agenda. Some people in this scene think it is uncouth in the extreme, and way down market to be learning tunes or just playing along with recordings. It is a very interesting consideration as to why they think that...they are trying to replicate some particular way of thinking, which goes pretty close to elitism, I think. It must then become pretty embarrassing for some people with this particular view, when someone who might have learned their tunes pretty much totally off recordings goes to a session and can play them into the ground!
I wonder what Martin Hayes, for example, would think about people learning tunes from some of his slow versions, and, heaven forbid...play along with the CD!!! Shock, horror!
Better the fires of hell and some honest Gangsta rap than the sleazie "gratification" slight dripping with condescension above that makes my skin crawl.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it."
I know I never said I get my gratification from playing along with recordings. I learn tunes from recordings so I can be more involved with my session. It's one tool in a box of many and I personally think it's a good way to learn tunes and train your ear when not playing with others. Session, for me, is about sharing tunes and playing tunes. It's not a lesson, though occasionally asking someone to play a part of a tune someone missed is ok. But I'm not about to ask one of my session mates to play an entire tune slowly, phrase by phrase until I pick it up. I can do that with a recording at home.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Okay, so now I don't have the "right" to this site either (see said above new thread). What has been happening above was obviously not "communication". You win Mr Gill, there is no ITM session here (except for this one). I bow to your superior ego. Lucky The Music is not judgemental and there is not a person alive or dead who can keep me from it.
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Sometimes, I wonder who or why some sessioneers seem to think their way is the only way to learn or appreciate ITM.I have been using Creative Mediasource(Soundblaster Live) to very successfully learn a number of tunes. Perhaps the objectors are the same ones who continuosly berate accordions,banjos,bodhrans and now unbelievably Low whistles. Is this a plot by hatched by fiddlers?.Are they all pompous asses or just the ones who post here.For Gods sake,catch yourselves on and just enjoy the music
Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
After reading the excellent advice in various parts of this website, and wading through my new/latest version of WMP, the tunes slow-down function works a treat.
Am I being a philistine in saying that being able to slow down tunes in pitch is one of the best things ever to happen for learning ITM?
I didn't quite realise how important this ability was, until I was able to hear in slow time the actual relationship between ornamentation (or the absence of it) and rhythm in each tune.
Seems to me, this is what going to masterclasses is really all about - learning what written music can't really convey.
Even though it might be sacrilege to some to say so, learning technique, not just the tunes, not just from a CD mind you - but actually being able to slow it down in pitch, and then listening to every great player you have on CD is an incredible learning opportunity. Can only add to ITM, I would have thought.
My recommendation: slow em down, learn the technique and rhythm, not just the tune.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Fair enough, but the tune comes first.
You must have first a skeleton upon which to hang all the rest of the body.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
The few times I've used a slowdown facility on my sound editor (Cool Edit 2000) is when I've been transcribing a tune into ABC and needed to confirm some of the fine detail. That, for me, is its only practical use.
I don't use slowdown for tune learning from recordings - whether live or from cds. I think it's far better to keep on listening to the tune and everything eventually emerges and gets absorbed by the brain. Don't forget that when you're learning a tune by ear you're not trying to get a mathematically accurate copy of the tune into your head - you're not learning a classical sonata at the piano with a teacher there to rap you over the knuckles if you get one note out of place - you're getting at the essence of the tune so that it becomes part of you for you to develop as you want.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Hey, lazyhound, if your learning a tune just as *the essence* (I presume you mean just the notes, not listening for rhythm and ornamentation), isn't that being fairly mechanical about it?!
I mean, ITM is after all, dance music isn't it, and was/is meant to support the dancers in terms of rhythm and tempo. A lot of that will be about ornamentation I would have thought.
I learned most of my tunes by ear, but I have to say it was a long process, and for most it looks like, longer the older you are when you start. Even those players who can listen to a tune and pick it up by ear and play it faultlessly at fast speed had to start somewhere - presumably when they were very young, or maybe some of them are in that even smaller group of players who have that as a natural ability.
My point is that with technology, like slow-down software, more people will be able to learn ITM in a way that will make them much better players in the longer term.
Like learning to type, or do machine shorthand, or learn piano, for examples, you don't learn just by watching the fastest and best players and then expecting that you'll be able to do that any time soon, without slowing everything down, practising ad nauseum, and gradually get faster and more accurate.
I wish slow-down software was around when I started learning Irish music. I have no doubt, no that I can play tunes at a faster pace, that I'd be a much better player now, have more tunes down - and be better able to learn by ear now.
Slow-down software, I think, is definitely the way to go for ITM learners, in addition to eventually becoming adept on your instrument.
I'm not so sure that, for most people, it is true, like lazyhound says that if you "keep on listening to the tune everything eventually emerges and gets absorbed by the brain". You gotta be able to hear and understand what you're listening to!
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I don't know where to start, and I'll probably say it all wrong ... but I'll have a go anyway ...
I haven't tried 'slow-down' software, and I can't see the point. I can't see how you could possibly learn the music that way. You'd be learning notes, not music, surely? You need to hear the dance in the music, and that means listening, and keeping on trying, and eventually it does, as Trevor says "emerge".
And ornamentation is NOT, in my opinion, the essence of the tune. A lot, and I should probably say, all of the ones I've spoken to over the years, of older fellas, who know what they're talking about, have said in no uncertain terms that the simpler the tune the better. Now, it happens that I put a lot of ornamentation in, but that comes along once I've got to grips with the tune - not long after, but after nevertheless. "Ornamentation" - it's kind of in the word really isn't it?
When you can get the rhythm and tempo sounding really good - for dancers - WITHOUT ornamentation - THEN you're a great player.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
benhall, try learning typing at 90 words a minute! Try learning piano from a Mozart sonata - try learning ITM at 100 beats per minute. *you* might be able to do it now, either because you've been playing a long time, or you are a *natural* - but for most mortals, you learn by slowing things down, getting good at it, then speeding it up - then you can be part of the *elite*.
Slow the *tune* down to learn the *tune* - along the way you'll hear ornamentation played by really good players - if it's in there (and it usually is) - and you can practise putting that in (if you want to).
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I think the difference is, it isn't typing
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Yeah, I noticed. They're all motor skills though, and a similar learning process. Hey, learning a language is very much like learning music - they are hearing skills aren't they. You can learn them from paper too though, almost most 2 year olds don't! Whatever though, the way we learn these things is that we start slow and speed up and get more accurate - we crawl before we walk, right?
With ITM, start slow, build up. With typing, start slow, build up. With language, start slow, build up.
Same as it always was.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, I feel I must try to reign back this seemingly boundless enthusiasm:
The first thing that comes to mind is to question how people learned before we had the confounded contraption. It seems to me that if you have any degree of respect for the music, some degree of at least interest should be awarded a simpler aural approach.
And there are many holes in the arguments for, that I have heard. As Ben Hall says, playing music is not typing. The only relevant skill in typing is merely hitting the keys in the right order. Try saying that about music.
And the another trouble with slowing down electronically is that everything is slowed down. When you play a tune slowly, the articulation you give it should not be. Your cuts and taps should still be clean, your fingers should lift off and on the strings/holes crisply, not in slow motion. Your breaths should be short and percussive, you bow strokes deliberate etc.
And the analogy to language should be a good one, however, do children learn to speak in slow motion? Of course they don't. They flail around until it comes. Yes, you learn to read, music or letters, in slow motion, but that is not playing or speaking.
The simple fact is that listening to something in slow motion will not help you hear how it goes, the single most important thing in music.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's something to be said for both sides (obviously from this discussion). You should be able to pick up tunes by ear at full speed, which is an amazing asset in sessions. However, there is nothing wrong with slowing down a tune to learn from. I have learned several ornaments that would otherwise be WAY to fast for me to pick up by ear this way. Also, when learning a tune (often I listen to it at full speed, decide I like it, try to learn it, fail, get the music off here, listen to it some more, and then slow it down) it helps to play along with the recording. I don't know about any of you, but I can't often keep up with the full speed of a professional (Leahy's B Minor, anyone?) and slowing it down helps. It's also just fun to play along with the backup.
It is important not to copy the tune verbatim from the CD, but being able to mimic great players can only help you in the long run.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Ben314
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
On llig leahcim's logic, if you were a student of his/her, be prepared to get thrown in the deep end - Sink or swim, survival of the fittest, yeah? If you flail around and then succeed, you're ok, if you don't, well you'd just be another no-talent loser?
Thankfully, education processes are more enlightened these days!
People learn to speak one word at a time, i.e. *s l o w l y* . Learning to *play music by ear* is recognising (one note at a time, if you slow the analysis of this process right down!) where that *sound* is on your instrument. Same as hearing someone say a word and knowing what keys to type to represent that sound in a symbol.
The difficulty in playing by ear is that it is a skill to be learned, and if trying to acquiring it from full speed ITM, it is going to happen but won't happen very visibly at all for a very long time. Playing a tune from sheet music, you will have a product quickly, but it delays, if that's the only method you use, learning the skill of playing by ear.
Slowing the music down and *then* learning to play along, without the benefit of sheet music, is the best way to train your ear and still get a satisfying product to keep you motivated to learn.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I think it's better to play a tune well, if slowly, than to play it faster, but poorly.
Once you know the tune, you can speed it up.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I couldn't learn a foreign language by listening to native speakers on a talk radio program or by watching TV in that language. No matter how many times I tried. Can you?
But when I lived in Mongolia, if someone spoke clearly and slowly to me, I could. And that's what I need to learn music by ear.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Kheelch
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I think Martin Hayes for one would definitely agree, mickray.
If you can hear a tune played slowly, and hear the same tune done by various good players, including *virtuousos*, you'll be able to hear what other techniques they are using as well.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Kheelch, I think that is exactly how children learn language actually - with the important difference that they are part of the process and try out what they hear. People learn languages really really well when they are children, and they do it by hearing only, obviously, and then trying it out, one word at a time, and the easiest sounds first.
The age after which acquiring these skills starts to become significantly slower is surprisingly young. After around 20 years of age, *around*, it becomes a lot slower, learning music included. It can obviously be done, because most of us have learned ITM after that age, it is just a lot slower. I would venture to say that the older you are when you starting learning this, the slower you should make the music to give yourself a break, and a chance of learning it, without feeling like an abject failure. You can't learn things very well at the fastest speed you hear them at, and it's ok to know that. So no need at all to feel inadequate at sessions, if that is a problem. Everyone sitting in front of you went through the *slow phase*, although because some, a very small minority outside only of Ireland probably, learned too young to be able to remember that they did!
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I wasn't necessarily thinking of Martin Hayes (who plays very fast, sometimes--anybody who thinks he only plays slowly just hasn't been paying attention).
I was just trying to imagine any music teacher--of any style--saying, "Make sure you play fast. That's the most important thing."
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Definitely Martin Hayes plays fast sometimes, anyone of his expertise will. The important thing is that he is one of the few who plays slow, and for very good reasons...he is being a teacher. So let's pay attention, after all, we don't have to pay anything else except the price of the CD eh!
The thing about Martin Hayes slow playing is that is *still* hard to do what he does in each tune. That's because there's a lot more to a tune than the speed, and he wants us to hear that.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, the difficulty with anything is you have to learn it.
But you are putting a preposterous proposition where "playing a tune from sheet music, you will have a product quickly". I don't understand where you get this from. Children do not learn to speak by reading first. Or by being spoken too very *s l o w l y*
My three year old daughter can't read, but she points to the first line of a book and runs her finger along it and recites, "Once upon a time." Even if 5% of the time it actually reads "Once, long ago, in a land far far away". Do I say to her "No, you've got that wrong" and try it again very s l o w l y? Of course not, you just get on with the story.
The deep end is where we all start. Vulnerable small children in a world of daunting adults. Did it bother us then?
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Children are genetically programmed to aquire a language quickly. Adults are not.
The older you are, the more difficult it is to learn a foriegn language by ear.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Kheelch
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Trouble is, Michael, most of the time its adults trying to learn ITM, and a lot of other things. Try throwing a classroom full of adults in the deep end - you haven't have you. They'll soon throw you in if you tried teaching things that way.
I would say that the vast majority of ITM learners, if you asked them if they would be more likely to be able to learn a tune from sheet music or by ear - *learners* mind you - would say sheet music, even if they can't read music yet - because that is a visible system which they will recognise is a path provided to follow, whereas *playing by ear* seems undefined to them.
Playing by ear is preferable, I fully agree, but it is almost impossible to acquire for adults in ITM at full tilt, and end up with a good ability with the tunes. Most people would give up in despair long before they got there that way.
With sheet music, sure, they will learn a tune, but most might then find it is a frustrating difficulty trying to get that tune up to *session* or just fast speed.
I'm sure you do well with teaching your children, Michael. Parents can potentially be the best teachers because they understand their own children the best.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Kheelch, you're right of course. Acquiring music isn't any different for the same reason.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Jeez, I didn't realise that Liz Doherty, Kevin Burke, Gerry O'Connor, Martin Hayes, Jerry Holland, Dinny McCloughlan etc were all so wrong. They all taught by slowing the tunes down.
Damn. I guess I wasted my time.
Experienced players shouldn't need it slowed down, true, but when you're learning? Of course you do. Micheal Coleman obviously taught Andy McGann incorrectly as well. He played the tunes slowly and then guess what? Oh no! he wrote them out for him! Herecy!
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by woops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I reckon a workout is a good idea, somebody should have thought of it earlier. Start slow and work up to very fast. then you can play anything in between. It certainly works with bodhran learners, they sure stuff up when the pace is really on but get a lot more accurate when you slow it back down. Must go and feed the chooks now, they seem to appreciate my efforts.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
It's phenomenal to watch someone who's learned how to play by ear just listen to a tune, even really fast, get the pattern, try out a few notes, then launch into the tune. That's better than learning by sheet music for sure. Trouble is, it's a very advanced skill, and something that you'd do better learning from a very young age.
For the later starters, yep, slow it right down initially, until you can play comfortably, and then start speeding it up. More chance of learning it accurately as well, even if you don't put any ornamentation in at that stage.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Ah, childhood. I remember it well (not really--very vaguely, more like). But it seems that I was less self-conscious, and my teachers applauded all my efforts, no matter how clumsy.
Now, as an adult beginner in this music, I have had to eat a lot of humble pie. It's a struggle for me, I have to fight for every little improvement.
And when you're in a serious fight, you make use of any weapons you can grab: including sheet music (imperfect, but of some use) and slowdowners (ditto).
I think the important thing is to find good examples to listen to (for me, lately, Paddy in the Smoke and Tribute to Joe Cooley, among others) and keep trying to figure out how this stuff works.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's a CD called "The Session" (?) too - I'd say if aspiring sessioneers slowed that right down and learned a few of those standard sets, and went along to their local, they'd feel right into it.
Slow-downers - best thing for ITM since Guinness.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Slow practice, which everyone from beginner to master needs to do in order to acquire technique and coordination, is not the same as listening to a slowed-down tape or cd.
A teacher playing a couple of measures slowly to a pupil in order to get a point over is also quite different to mechanically slowed-down music.
If you train your ear to really focus on music being played in real time (i.e. not being slowed down) then you will indeed hear the detail in the music; just as an artist has trained his eye to see shapes, colours and textures that are not seen by most people, even though those features are there.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
PS, all those musicians back through the centuries - how did they learn music without the "benefit" of slowdowners (I'm talking about learning by ear, not by the dots)? By those three things I mentioned in my last post - slow practice, slow illustration of technical points by a teacher, and training the ear to really listen. That's how. Perhaps it did take a little longer than learning by the modern artificial "aid" of the slowdowner - I don't know. But to me one thing is certain: there is nothing to be gained in learning music by the modern frantic rush to get things done as quickly as possible. It's like rain: slow steady rainfall over a period of time is far more effective than the sudden downpour resulting in flash floods that don't get absorbed by the soil.
Another thing: the best test of whether you really "have" a tune is if you can, in your mind's "ear", hear it and play it as slowly or as fast as you like, pause it, examine it and make any alterations you want.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well yeah, lazyhound, I meant to say - slow down the tune, - then play along with it, yep, not just listen.
Point is, you'll be training your ear whether you listen to normal, fast or slowed down speeds, but when listening (and playing along) to slow speed the process is a lot easier for most learners, *plus* you get that all-important chance to translate from what you hear to position on the instrument for each note in turn, which helps enormously with learning the instrument as well.
If you're trying to learn to play by ear by listening (and playing along with) fast versions, that is going to take a very long time for most adult learners, probably longer than people will be able to go without getting quite disillusioned, thinking that they'll never be able to get there.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Centuries ago though, lazyh, how many people didn't get to learn because they couldn't get to grips with fast versions - or maybe the whole genre was slower then, yes?
I think the brain *tells* you it knows a tune, when you play it in your "mind's ear" but then when you actually play it, some parts of it, you find you actually don't know it. I agree, playing it over in your "mind's ear" is an essential tool, but very easy to convince yourself that you have it down, when you don't. Some people will be a lot better at this than others though. Same problem though, if you're trying to learn it from a fast version, it is going to take a very long time to get it right even in your mind's ear.
Centuries ago too, just like today, in some places e.g. Ireland, there's going to be a lot of learning opportunities around with the number of learners and teachers that were around.
Slow downers are great in the global world of ITM. Maybe you wouldn't need them so much if you were living in Ireland and learning the music there.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
lazyhound, I'm a bit confused--earlier you said "The few times I've used a slowdown facility on my sound editor (Cool Edit 2000) is when I've been transcribing a tune into ABC and needed to confirm some of the fine detail."
I don't see how that is different from someone learning the tune from a recording--and needing to confirm some of the fine detail.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"I would say that the vast majority of ITM learners, if you asked them if they would be more likely to be able to learn a tune from sheet music or by ear - *learners* mind you - would say sheet music, even if they can't read music yet - because that is a visible system which they will recognise is a path provided to follow, whereas *playing by ear* seems undefined to them."
Duijera, that's just not true. Let me learn by ear any day. I'm just learning to read and sheet music is like eating vegetables right now (well, actually, I like vegetables, but you get the point...).
You've been making a big fuss over the formidable difficulty of learning by ear. First of all, you don't need to learn a fast reel at speed. But if you listen to it enough, you can slow it down in your mind to where you can play it phrase by phrase at any speed you want. Try it. Sit down with your cd player (one where you can pause and rewind and replay---I use iTunes on my computer---so I'm not knocking technology), pick your favorite reel, one that you have running in your head all day, and play the first 3 seconds of it. Find the first note on your instrument, and you can usually play most of the phrase that goes with it because you know how the tune sounds and you'll find the notes by relative pitch. Do it again if you miss something. Play the phrase slowly, not with the cd, just on your own, then listen to it again to make sure you've got it right. Then do the next phrase.
It's phrases you're looking for, not individual notes---if I had to hunt one by one for every single note in a reel I think I would dread doing it, too. The notes are connected to each other by pitch, and if you know the tune, if you can hum it maybe, then you can figure out where the next notes will fall. I'm just a beginner on fiddle but the better I get to know the instrument, where the thirds and fifths are along the different scales, the easier it is to figure out where the melody of a tune is. And I'm sure that after I know a few hundred tunes and I'm familiar with the patterns in the music, it will be easier still.
I've done this with about a dozen tunes so far and it's actually fun. It might take me a couple of hours, and then I might forget most of it and have to do it all over again later in the week. But I'll tell you what, they're in my head now for good. I still can't play the faster tunes along with the cd's, but that will come when my technique improves.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"But in the end, a good fiddle player will learn in the way that Michael Coleman learnt - by listening to other people play, absorbing rather than imitating, mastering the basic techniques and then forgetting them, taking the music into the heart and letting it out again."
- David A. Wilson
from - Ireland A Bicycle and a Tin Whistle
All methods of learning are useful in my mind. (I hardly need say that listening comes first since this is, afterall, music.)
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by nonesuch
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Hey kennedy,
Great advice, good system. Seems to me though, it's a bit of a variation on slowing down the whole tune and letting it run through, in your case, you're concentrating on bits of it at a time - that's fine too.
"I still can't play the faster tunes with the cds, but that will come when my technique improves." What do you mean by "technique" though? I think it'll probably happen when the time between hearing the note(s) and then translating it to position on your instrument gets to the point where it matches that of the players you're listening to on the cd. If that can happen by playing along with the whole-tune-slowdown, or learning it in phrases, I'm not sure. Be a good experiment though to find out.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
What I mean by technique is basic motor coordination. Jumping around the fingerboard, accurately hitting notes at speed. Sometimes I'm lucky now if I hit the right string! And then there's the bow---it doesn't help to get the right notes with my left hand if I'm not bowing the string properly to match, and this is exponentially harder to do at speed.
There's a difference between matching notes with a slowed-down cd and mentally picking it apart phrase by phrase to learn it. If you learn the tune and you know it, then you don't need to play along with it for a reminder on what it sounds like---you can start paying attention to things like phrasing, rhythm, ornaments, etc.---really see how the player expresses it and see if you want to play it that way too. Or not. You can listen to different versions of it and compare them with what you know already.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Sometimes I'm lucky if I hit the right string" - kennedy.
Sounds to me like you're trying to play too fast, kennedy. Slow it right down and concentrate on hitting the right strings, then start to ramp it up a bit. I teach a keyboard skill (no not typing or music), and that's rule number 1 - accuracy, not speed, to start with. Speed is really only lack of hesitation - in an ITM context, this would mean knowing the tune, but equally important no hesitation on exactly where to put those fingers so that it is absolutely accurate. Best way to do this is by slowing right down and concentrating on accuracy - even if you can hear the tune faster in your mind. Try it, it works.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There was the beginnings of a interesting analogy of how an artist sees the world above. I'd like to elaborate:
When people who can't draw attempt to render what they see, instead of drawing solid shapes of varied colour and shade, they draw hard outlines around objects. A tree trunk becomes two parallel lines, the sun becomes a circle instead of a disk, etc.
Slowing down music to learn it has a similar effect. Rather than experiencing the music as shapes and phrases, it becomes a laboured task of merely waiting for the next change in pitch. Like a bad drawing, mostly white paper with crude abrupt edges. Listen to how the midi player here plays tunes and you'll know what I mean.
And the musician makes the same mistakes of proportion as the bad drawer. A hand will be drawn out of proportion to an arm, because the concentration given the hand is separated from the concentration given the arm. The only way to achieve the proportion is to view the whole.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
ditto "thedon" as above. Couldn't agree more. Maybe those players are good drawers too.
What I noticed above slowdown software (not the midi player obviously) is that you can hear the rhythm of the tunes accentuated too as well as the ornamentation really well defined. So when you go back to the normal speed, it is very obvious.
Ever noticed how an air in a session, nicely played, without texture, colour, shade (in a musical context) gets a really good reception from an audience, often more so than super-duper fast reels? (Provided the air is played slow of course!) People can actually hear all those things when a tune is slow.
Isn't a better analogy that tunes played really fast, which miss out on the "light and shade" because the musician is concentrating on speed (because that's all they could ever hear), is like a "bad drawer" as you say?
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"...an air in a session, nicely played, *WITH* texture, ...etc" that should be. Typo! I must be trying to go too fast!
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Mickray, when I transcribe a tune into ABC from a recording - normally a tape from a session or workshop - I can usually do it by ear. If there're one or two notes I'm not sure about even on repeated listenings that wouldn't bother me if I was learning the tune for myself - I'd play a note that fitted in (yet another version of the tune!). However, if I'm doing an ABC transcription for uploading on TheSession then I try to get it as accurate as possible before posting it. If I can't get back to the original player(s) in cases of doubt (happily fairly rare), that's when I would slow down that section of the tune on my sound editor. Let's call it "audio forensics" - sounds better than "slowdowner"
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'm sorry there didgeree do, but you completely got the wrong end of the stick.
You say that with slowdown software "you can hear the rhythm of the tunes accentuated as well as the ornamentation really well defined". Not at all, you are actually hearing the rythm extended, not accentuated, a very different thing indeed. And you are not hearing the ornamentation well defined at all. You are hearing it laboured.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Wow, Michael, considering slow down software is as useless as you maintain, it's a wonder people find it so helpful! Then again, you seem to be one of the very few people saying this.
I'm really glad I'm not convinced by your views, and have found such a great tool to learn more tunes, quickly, by ear, and break out of the tyranny of dependence on rapid-fire sessions for the learning.
Slowing down the tune doesn't eliminate the rhythm and the ornamentation like the midi player with which I thought you draw the comparison.
Have you learned all your tunes through slow down software, Michael, and you just don't want to say?
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I've learned a lot of tunes, especially in the beginning, by having them slowed down for me, but not by a machine, by a person. And I do use "amazing slow downer", but never to slow down tunes, to change pitch, mostly from Eb to D (Bb to A - same thing).
And I'm sorry, the reference to the midi player was clumsy.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Wow. So we're not supposed to use sheet music to learn tunes from, because it's not the "right" way to learn and being tied to the "dots" means we don't know how to play the tune. And we're not supposed to slow down tunes to figure out the notes because then we're just getting pitches and not the tune.
So that leaves learning the tunes at full tilt off an album or at a session? Well, that's rather discouraging as most of us need to hear things slowly at first in order to make sense of it.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'll also add that I think slowing tunes down via electronic means can aid your ear in figuring out the relationships between notes at a speed that YOUR ear can work at. Then you can speed things back up once you know the basics of the tune.
It's a good way to train your ears when you're not used to using them to pick up tunes.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'm sorry Crysania, but you missed out the best way to learn tunes, especially if you are a beginner. Get some one to show it to you. Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune.
"How does that bit go again?" is probably the most often heard phrase.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
People will use whatever tools are availabe to them. There’s no point in saying it shouldn’t be done. It *will* be done.
If you learn a tune with the help of a slowdowner, at some point you’ll stop using the crutch and just play the tune. If the “slowdowned” learning process introduced some quirkiness into your playing, it’ll most likely get cleaned up as you live with the tune and play it with other people. If you love and respect the music, it’ll turn out okay in the end.
I wouldn't worry about it.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Michael
I very strongly agree with just about everything you've posted on this thread. And I'm more than mildly irritated by Dubh's habit of ASSERTING ... repeatedly ... rather than reasoning.
Referring to Michael's points, you say "you seem to be one of the very few people saying this".
Firstly, that's probably only in relation to the almost numberless posts from yourself which only say the same, fairly pointless thing, which goes along the lines of "slow-down software is great - it would make everyone a better musician". This, apart from being self-evidently nonsense, also ignores the obvious and best way to learn the music, which in any case is about more than just learning a few tunes - or even many tunes - and that is ... LEARN IT FROM SOME REAL PEOPLE!
And secondly, I imagine that all the people out there not responding to this and weighing in on Michael's side of the argument are only abstaining out of a sense of ennui at the ridiculousness of the suggestion.
Going back to your original question: yes - you ARE being a Philistine.
PS Congratulations Michael on managing to stay calmer and more restrained than I seem to have managed!
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
... most of my last post was, of course, addressed to Mr Dubh, not to Michael ...
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I'll just add my 2d:
It seems to me that perhaps Mr. Gill has heard recordings slowed down too far, which is why he refers to "the laboured task of waiting for a change in pitch." I think if one slows down the recording so much that one can no longer listen to it as a coherent peice of music, then it's lost it's value as a learning tool. Ideally, it seems one should slow the recording down just enough that each note discernable from the next, but not so much that the sense of the tune disappears.
This is not directly relevant, but I recently learned some tunes from the Happy To Meet... CD by James Cullinan and PJ Crotty, and used software to slow the tunes down a bit. I just couldn't quite catch some of the notes at the recorded speed, and in some of these tunes, it's the details that really define the tune. Anyway, I was really struck by the fact that even when slowed down, they still sounded perfectly natural. There was no flubbing or faking of passing notes, which you would certainly hear if you slowed down a recording of me! I was really impressed, and inspired to try to bring a higher level of focus into my own playing. And I suppose I may not have had that insight without the ability to slow down the recordings.
So, my very humble opinion: slowdowners and their ilk = a useful tool if used appropriately.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by patrick cavanagh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Weighing in as a beginner-to-intermediate player.....
I tried learning tunes off of recordings at fullspeed with very slow success. It would take days and weeks to figure out one tune.
Recently I found out how to slow things down with Windows Media Player, and in a matter of an hour or two I am able to learn a tune and play it up to pace. This is a MUCH more satisfying process, and I believe my rythym is better this way as well.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by silver bow
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Nobody seems to have mentioned the value of the slowdowner as a means of analysing your own playing.
As an amateur with no means of exposure to sessions, I like to record myself then slow the recording down to see whether at slow speed it passes "the test" - that is, it comes out clear and rhythmic with clean intonation, when it is slowed down. It is amazing how revealing slowing yourself down can be.
So .... jump down my throat if you like, but as well as slowing down the tune (and I use Audacity for this, so I can increase or decrease the tempo at will), it means, in the absence of anything remotely resembling an Irish session, I can also have a few tunes with the greats - and at MY tempo - so they don't have to feel put out by a "learner" mucking up their music. Its absolutely painless to them.
So, come on guys and gals, you are just using another thing to broadcast your "superiority". Give the strugglers a break, and let the common people use the tools that are available to them without the snide remarks. Of course, learning directly from the greats is best, but to some, an impossible dream.
Cut the superiority nonesense.
Cheers
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
On this matter, Rm llig is right. If you learn a tune "slowly" by playing along to a computer, it will be difficult to speed it up. If you can carry the tune in your head, and reproduce it slower when trying to play it, you will eventually "naturally" get quicker.
Sounds daft, but you know it makes sense.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
We do love a good scrap, don't we? In my experience, it's easy enough to speed up at tune, once you know it well enough.
I wanted to learn the following setting of The Shoemaker's Daughter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerVZHfJ2P8
But it was just too darned fast. I got sheet music from this site to get the general layout of the tune, but quickly put it aside because the differences were too distracting.
So I ripped the audio from the YouTube clip, put the .wav file into Audacity, and slowed it down about 50 percent, just to get most of the details right. I used the shift+play feature to loop a few measures at a time, just like having a teacher play a few bars slowly. That was about three weeks ago.
I just now played along with it at full speed, and did OK. I'm not saying I caught every little variation--especially those two little glancing double stops during the second time through--but because I have learned all the basic notes of the melody, and there's no second-guessing, I can play the melody at that tempo. So I have to say that learning from a slowed-down recording worked, for me. Blame any remaining glitches on my natural clumsiness, not on technology.
I'm sure I read somewhere--very likely here--that the true test of whether you really know a tune is whether you can play it at any tempo.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, mickray, I think you just summarise the whole thing perfectly. And who would have thought that a chat about slow down software would actually develop into a scrap - but hey, I kinda new that it would on this site!
Anyway, I used the slow down software for the first time about three weeks ago, in my 16 years of learning and playing ITM, and found it an absolute bonus! Maybe because I can play at session tempo quite a few tunes, and have already developed that, that I don't find any problem at all slowing a tune down that I don't know, practising from that, and then bringing it up to speed pretty quickly. Fairly similar to yourself and others by the sound of it.
I've learned quite a bit, once again, from this website as a result of this post. It's a great website, but the scrap potential is part of the process by the look of it. Actually, I haven't seen any other forum where that potential is so close to the surface, or so easily stirred into action! It's almost formulaic here - if you want to stir a scrap here, it's very easy. It's almost a sort of an *extension* of some sessions, but hey, it is called "the session", eh. It's good craic all round though, scraps and all. Take all the advice available here with thanks to all who make it possible, but don't ever take the aggro at all seriously, is my advice. Pretty much the same as a session really.
Oh, and yeah, there's slow down software available to help you learn these days, how good is that!
Cheers guys, and thanks. I'm off to slow down a few tunes I've been grappling with for a long time... played by real people.
Keep cranking!
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There's nothing wrong with learning tunes slowed down like this. To answer someones question about what we did before these contraptions - well there were the "tape recorders", which though they might not all be slowed down allowed for the same deliberate dedication to learning a single tune right. Before that there were the LPs which a whole generation of players learnt from slowing them down approx half speed and dropping the pitch by an octave so it fitted the instrument without changing the pitch.
Besides which I've heard of many many great players Junior Crehan, Joe Cooley, Coleman, Sean Ryan etc etc deliberately playing a tune real slow within the context of a session (in the pub) so that someone else would have it right. Just because that doesn't happen much now, and sessions tend to be such a hooley (that the space and time for tune swapping is all the rarer) doesn't make learning a tune slowly using devices like the amazing slow downer, wmp, or cooledit in any way wrong.
Also, as pointed out above, the way people teach is exactly by playing the tunes slowly, initially piecemeal, and then speading them up and putting them together with ornamentation once the tune is gotten. While learning the tunes by process of osmosis is possible amongst the best players, generally its not always done well, and it depends very much on the quality, clarity and consistency of the players you are learning the tunes from.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Jamie
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Jamie, I think the main beef by some here is that it's fine to learn a tune slowly, provided the slow playing is done by someone sitting right in front of you, but definitely not (apparently) by using slow down software. I think I've got it right!
It would be really good to get the views of some of the professional players on this.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I already gave my view.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
The proof of the pudding ...
If it works for you, then it's justified. ... Isn't it?
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Dear bodhran bliss,
Your assumption that people who use slowdowners actually learn the tune slow to begin with just doesn't hold water. Of course it is possible and probable that said people can learn the tune at speed and then slow the tune down to the point of being able to pick it up, then gradually or suddenly speed it up. No different from in real life. In the "olden days", the 70's, I too tried and learnt some tunes from LPs played at 16 rpm (not very well mind you, but I tried as a total beginner), and my draws are full of learning tapes of people who played tunes at speed, then at slow, medium and at speed. Picked out some passages, ornaments at slow speed, etc. This, at speed, is what this should sound like at slow speed. That's the way its done - is it not? Have also heard people play new tunes, see that noone is joining in, slow down to allow others to pick them up and play along. When the tune is got by those who don't know it, then off the tune goes again with people joining in.
The beauty of being able to tinker with the tempo without altering the pitch is that it works much quicker, you can tailor your learning to your own needs (not someone else's agenda) and you can pick and choose the artists and tunes you want to learn from. The flexibility is incredible. As I said, not everyone has access to tunes or artists, but with the use of computer software, one is able to learn any tune from any artist who has made a CD, DVD, UTube movie, tape, or MP3, WAV etc etc. The choice is only limited by ones own aspirations. That, according to me, is great stuff, for a person who's link to Irish Traditional Music is here, through the computer and 'the session'.
Or don't you think that people like me have any right to it????
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
and, as I said, you can even check on your own playing at speed, by slowing it down and listening to it ... and, and, and (sorry about the enthusiastic stutter), as mickray's example, it means people can learn from and play along with their idols, the tunes they want to learn/play and analyse their own playing to their own betterment. What is wrong with that? Crikey!
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
All very aggressive, dear me. All I did was give a humble opinion. Never once did I suggest I was right, just suggested that for me slowing down a tune to learn it, and then having to play fast at a session, I couldn't do it. Unless I slow it down in my head, and not on a computer. And I am not talking about the bodhran, obviously, anticipating another vitriolic post.
I have been playing "My Lagan Love" for years as a slow air, find it incredibly difficult to speed up to say play along with Horslips rock version. Now that may be by limited ability, on the mandolin he hastily added, but to MY mind I imagine that would apply to loads of people.
Just my humble opinion. No need for angry replies.
OR AM I NOT ALLOWED AN OPINION.
# Posted on November 15th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
BB
There was not a single "aggressive" word in my post, nor was it "an angry reply", nor need you "anticipate another vitriolic post". The underlying assumption of your argument just doesn't hold water, as I said. That's all.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
There is one thing that is common to all the posters here who like the computer slow down thing, and that is, "that it works much quicker". Says it all really, no patience
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Okay, I don't even know how to use this slow-downer thing, but the question that keeps popping up in my mind is---(other than distorting the speed of ornaments), what is the difference between playing a slowed-down phrase of a tune and having a real live player play the same phrase slowly for you?
I have more thoughts on this discussion, but I wanted to start off with that question first...
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Good question, but I think I mentioned it earlier, "When you play a tune slower, your cuts and taps should still be clean, your fingers should lift off and on the strings/holes crisply, not in slow motion. Your breaths should be short and percussive, you bow strokes deliberate etc."
It's in the phrasing. A real player playing slower will still articulate everything cleanly. Electronically slowing it down gives it a very laboured sound that actually sounds more like a beginner. And I'm afraid that beginners copy this feel.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Fair enough, that makes plenty of sense. So what if the player is not a beginner (already has good technique) and is just using the software as a reference for the notes of the tune?
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
That's exactly right, kennedy. I think the main problem with Michael's perspective is that he is thinking that "slow down software is only for beginners", and that they may not be trusted to get everything right.
Michael's comments, as well intentioned as they might be, remind me of a teacher who is telling a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that you need to get all those cuts and taps right, as a sort of prequisite to learning the tune...whereas the beginner will be thinking, "gee I have a hard enough time trying to hear the actual tune than to worry about advanced stuff right now."
As far as I can make it work, WMP only slows down to 50% anyway, which makes it sound like a slow reel by Martin Hayes. You can certainly still hear all the phrasing, ornaments, cuts, etc, etc. (That is, if you have learned about those things yet - beginners may not have, others may or may not have.)
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Duijera, I don't think Michael has ever said that; you should probably let him speak for himself.
I'm going to have to get this slow-downer thing and see for myself how it really makes a tune sound...
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Works quicker and more accurately than learning a tune after several bustling noisy sessions, hearing several versions at the same time, hearing several versions of them at different times, a number of them that turn out later to be unhelpful if you put your trust in them. Its nothing to do with patience, or a lack thereof, but everything to do with wanting to learn a tune well and play it how it should be played.
I'm lucky enough to be able to pick up a tune very quickly and have a good ear. If i'm sitting between two good players playing approximately similar versions of a tune I haven't heard before e.g a two part reel, I'll have it picked up at the fourth or so time through. At most of the sessions I go to, the tunes aren't presented like that. The versions vary, the playing too, and even being able to hear a tune above the guitar fest is a challenge and tunes rarely ever get played more than twice. I could still get the gist of the tune quickly enough to play along. I could even vary it accordingly, adding in what I though appropriate bowing and ornamentation, but I'd be way out when I came to playing it in the VIcky bar in Glasgow, for example.
As for your assesment of the laboured sound of people who've learnt with slowed down tunes - I would have to say you have no evidence for that and counter that my experience of those who've learnt that way is quite contrary.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Jamie
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
That to me seems to be the implication, pretty clear from what he has said. If that isn't his message, I'm actually not sure what it is then. He says he uses the slow down software to learn various aspects of tunes, gee they can't be all bad then eh!
Anyway, each to their own. It looks like the software is rapidly becoming a learning method of choice right around the world.
I think you'll really get a lot from it, kennedy...but hey, I won't say any more, and let you find out for yourself.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Spot on again, Jamie.
The luxury of having one's own personal tunes trainer is inaccessible for most people. The only widely available tools have been sheet music and recordings - and whatever the downsides of these, they have enabled ITM to be available globally for the listening and learning. Slow down software is part of the same process, and a damn good one, because it helps develop 'playing by ear' in probably the most efficient way possible. More power to it! (or maybe that should be less power, if you are slowing them down!)
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Well, yes. My concern is with beginners. And it is a similar concern with beginners and music notation. I understand that an eager beginner possesses that most wonderful thing, the insatiable appetite, and I'd really hate it if I was pouring cold water on that.
However, I cannot stress more the value of patience. I guess it comes down to one of my long standing gripes about there being too many tunes. Yes it's daunting when, as a beginner, you sit in a session and hear a couple of hundred tunes you don'y know. Can I blame the search for a short cut into it?
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
... and, I would be that sort of teacher who would tell a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that they'd need to get all those cuts and taps right.
But not as a sort of prequisite to learning the tune, but simply as vital a part of playing the tune as getting the notes in the right order and getting your phrasing even and percusive, etc.
Not that I wouldn't be praising the beginner for getting the notes in the right order, for example, I just wouldn't patronise them by giving them the impression that they were any where near playing it well.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
One and one is two.
Oonnee ............and...........oonnee............is.............two.
It works.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
What the! What *are* you doing there, bodhran - practising the drum skills?
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
A cut is a cut is a cut. Clean is "clean" if it is clean slowed down. If you cut a note clean at full speed (whatever that is), it remains clean slowed down to a reasonable degree. A cut is a cut is a cut. Or it isn't a cut.
"Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune." Ha ha ha!
"... and, I would be that sort of teacher who would tell a rank beginner trying to learn a tune, for example, that they'd need to get all those cuts and taps right." Crikey! Here we go again.
What a lot of twaddle.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"I'm sorry Crysania, but you missed out the best way to learn tunes, especially if you are a beginner. Get some one to show it to you. Just ask someone at a session, any reasonable person will be happy to show you a tune."
That's all well and good. But unfortunately, I do not play sessions every night of the week. So you're saying the only way for someone to learn tunes is at a session? Or by getting together with other musicians? That's not always a possibility. Sure, it's a great way to learn tunes and most people I know make use of it.
But when you're at home, alone, surrounded by your recordings, with only your whistle or fiddle or box or whatever, what are you suggesting someone does? Nothing. Don't practice because using a slowing down software isn't good enough?
Also, to those that noted you can't speed up a tune when learned slowy from an electronic thing, I completely disagree. I've done this any number of times. It gives me the basic notes -- I already know the rhythm and feel of the tune and I know, from experience, what to do about "ornaments." Once I know them, speeding it up to a proper tempo is simple. A beginner who doesn't know much about how the music sounds wouldn't be able to do it, but any experienced player could.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Sorry, too, Michael, that you use software to alter the pitch. A player of your undoubted 'calibre?' should be able to tune up, down, or whatever, or play with different hand positions in different keys (ie Bb or Eb), and not have to use pitch altering facilities on a computer! Its a shortcut! What you need is patience. Are the old timers, such as Joe Cooley wrong to have played in these keys? Should they have played in concert pitch for your benefit?
Well I remember the thread when you were challenged about your right to decide what is "right" in Irish Traditional Music. Yet, you are still in there doing it. I know I would much prefer to learn from someone much less dogmatic than your good self. Give me a good recording any day, from the people whose playing I do respect, or live recordings of real people teaching me first hand. My agenda, not yours. And as for the "Just ask someone at a session" joke, I will reiterate again and again, not everyone on the yella board has the opportunity. Give those that don't a break. People have the "right" to use the tools at their disposal to get the music that they feel passionately about - and NOONE should be humiliated here by silly assumptions above about their abilities. Who should use slowdowners, who shouldn't - its twaddle. The whole argument doesn't hold water.
Give it a rest, fir crying out loud. I'm gone to play a few tunes with Stockton's Wing - some tunes I brushed up using the slowdowner and can now play along with them at full tilt. They aren't going to tell me I'm wrong, if fact it isn't going to bother them at all, and in the absence of a session for 1,500 km radius - that is, in any direction (just so you know) - sessioning with players of calibre is the next best thing. Heaven.
Cheers
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Thanks Old scraper, great for a shakey beginner like myself to hear that.
# Posted on November 16th 2006 by shakey
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
I don't think I ever said don't, I just said I thought it unwise, and gave as many reasons as I could. Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
And all that 3/4, 4/6 and 1/2 time means nothing to me. I just play.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it"...LL
This probably says it all really. You get the feeling that this argument is not so much about slow down software as some other agenda. Some people in this scene think it is uncouth in the extreme, and way down market to be learning tunes or just playing along with recordings. It is a very interesting consideration as to why they think that...they are trying to replicate some particular way of thinking, which goes pretty close to elitism, I think. It must then become pretty embarrassing for some people with this particular view, when someone who might have learned their tunes pretty much totally off recordings goes to a session and can play them into the ground!
I wonder what Martin Hayes, for example, would think about people learning tunes from some of his slow versions, and, heaven forbid...play along with the CD!!! Shock, horror!
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
No, no, no.
You have to build a stone cottage with a thatched roof, import some peat for the fire, build a still and make some poteen....
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
...can you have internet connection, CDs and slow down software with that?
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Yes, but you will go to hell.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Holy smokin' popes! ...Do they have sessions there?
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Yes, but they play nothing but gangsta rap.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by mickray
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
No respect! And I suppose I'll have to slow it down to hear what the hell they're saying!
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
And from personal experience every Friday afternoon with real live gangsta rappers, you do!!
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Rapping words
Better the fires of hell and some honest Gangsta rap than the sleazie "gratification" slight dripping with condescension above that makes my skin crawl.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
"Though if you can get your gratification from playing along with recordings, so be it."
I know I never said I get my gratification from playing along with recordings. I learn tunes from recordings so I can be more involved with my session. It's one tool in a box of many and I personally think it's a good way to learn tunes and train your ear when not playing with others. Session, for me, is about sharing tunes and playing tunes. It's not a lesson, though occasionally asking someone to play a part of a tune someone missed is ok. But I'm not about to ask one of my session mates to play an entire tune slowly, phrase by phrase until I pick it up. I can do that with a recording at home.
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11775
# Posted on November 17th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Okay, so now I don't have the "right" to this site either (see said above new thread). What has been happening above was obviously not "communication". You win Mr Gill, there is no ITM session here (except for this one). I bow to your superior ego. Lucky The Music is not judgemental and there is not a person alive or dead who can keep me from it.
# Posted on November 18th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Windows Media Player Masterclass/ Tin Man, etc
Sometimes, I wonder who or why some sessioneers seem to think their way is the only way to learn or appreciate ITM.I have been using Creative Mediasource(Soundblaster Live) to very successfully learn a number of tunes. Perhaps the objectors are the same ones who continuosly berate accordions,banjos,bodhrans and now unbelievably Low whistles. Is this a plot by hatched by fiddlers?.Are they all pompous asses or just the ones who post here.For Gods sake,catch yourselves on and just enjoy the music
# Posted on November 24th 2006 by Musicofireland