Hi All,
After playing guitar for many years I've switched to mandolin for melody playing-could never quite get it on guitar. Lately I've tried mandolin tuning on the guitar ,capoed on the fifth fret.Top and bottom strings as drones.Still playing around with guages.Has anyone else tried anything like this?-Thanks
When I decided to pursue ITM, I switched from guitar to mandolin; I love how accessible the tunes are, and the first position fiddle fingering.
If you feel more comfortable with the guitar, with single strings, with lower string tension, or just like that tone better, you might consider trying a tenor guitar. These are 4 string, and tuned in 5ths; traditionally CGDA I believe. And they can sound great for back-up too.
Another way to go might be a short-necked tenor banjo, tuned an octave below mandolin/fiddle. A really short scale, like 19" or less, can usally accommodate fiddle fingering (there's been lots of discussion and debate about this in past threads...).
There are some guitar players who can really do melody nicely, but it's not easy to be sure, and would be hard to keep up for a long night of tunes. One of the great ITM guitar players in my area plays melody for the occasional tune or parts of a tune, but mostly plays melody on banjo, when that's his desire.
Some people tune their Tenor Guitars to GDAE. I use Fiddle fingering on my Octave Mandolin which has a 22" scale, not everyone can do that, but my point is that it can be done. Keith I once met a Guitar player who did the same thing, but that was in NJ so I doubt it was the same one.
Using a 6 string guitar in this way seems a bit of a novelty act. Scale length is too long for convincing "fiddle" playing at normal reel/jig pace. Get a fiddle, mandolin, tenor guitar or tenor banjo and be heard as well as respected.
As a classical guitarist turning to ITM, I find that playing melody is what I want to do rather than strumming accompaniments, which I'm not much good at anyway. I'm familiar with the technical problems of fitting the tunes onto standard guitar tunings and scale length. Some tunes fit nicely, but often it just seems impossible. I'm working on a solution.
I am experimenting with using a standard guitar tuning except the G string tuned down a semitone to F# then using a capo at the fifth fret. This gives lowest to highest open strings ADGBEA. Effectively, this is the same tuning as a standard guitar without a capo but replacing the lowest (E) string with an extra high string (the E capoed at A). I rarely use the low E in ITM so that's no loss., but the top E string capoed at A means that I no longer have to stretch or make quick visits to higher positions to play round high Bs. The big advantage of this is that (apart from the additional high A string) tunes I have learnt to play on a 'normal' guitar retain the same fingering exactly - the only thing to get used to is playing everything a 'string lower'. Seems to work OK, though I won't say I'm up to session speed yet . Also using the capo at the fifth fret gives a more brilliant tone, and might make the sound more audible (to the player as well as others) in a session. One of the other problems for us finger-style players as actually feeling we are contributing something to the overall sound.
I'd be interested to know if anyone's tried this or something similar before.
All I know as a fingerstyle player for tunes, in DADGAD mainly, it is hard to keep up a lot of the speed, sometimes yes, depends on the tune. Usually it is just reserved for performances where I do a solo or two.
For fingerstyle backing, in dropped D, speed no problemo! A capo does "bright" things up a bit on tunes. I like some with a capo better whether or not it is necessary.
That wasn't the original question though.... what about getting a custom guitar with a long four string neck? I have seen bouzouki bodies with a guitar neck and vice versa, so why not if you are serious about this? You may find a luthier to adapt a guitar neck and retrofit it for you. You'd have to experiment with string guages after that to see what works...I'd suspect a set of tenor guitar strings may come close.
You're right, irisnevins, I took this a bit off topic with my musings. I think I ought to start a new thread with my posting (I hope that's not some sort of breach of forum protocol!)
I’ve seen classical guitarist Andrew York tune four strings to cello tuning to play a Bach cello piece. It worked well enough, but I like the transcriptions for standard tuning better. The cello tuning sounds great on the cello, but to my ear the harmony voices better in standard tuning on the guitar.
I’ve thought about trying fiddle tuning for flat-picking on the guitar. For me, the hardest part of flatpick guitar is string crossing, which is minimized when you tune to fifths. But, being lazy, I never actually tried it with proper string gauges.
I dont think Irish tune melodies are that hard on the guitar... its just that its not done very often so when it comes to guitar, think about what is played on it normally-- Blues--- mostly licks and tricks--rock--the same---folk--chords---bluegrass/jazz---more licks and tricks with a bit of melody- pop---chords--
It's just a different way of playing. But this isnt the discussion.
Well I don't like giving away secrets but here's how to tune your guitar so you can easily play tunes you learn in mandolin/fiddle tuning.
DGDGAE
With this tuning you can get all the tunes in and add in nice drones and such things. I use this tuning a lot and contrary to what that eejit MYBC says, if you have the technique you can play any tune type no matter what speed. What exactly is the 'correct' speed for jigs and reels anyway?! I haven't seen any rules written in stone about this, why?, because there are no rules.
You can also be easily heard if you've a decent guitar, hard tension strings & provided you aren't in a really noisy session.
If you are in a really noisy session you won't be heard if you play mandolin or tenor guitar either, so in those situations it's best to play fiddle or banjo, or just leave and find a better session!
Melody playing with the acoustic guitar is guite common in the Bluegrass music, and often much more up tempo than in the Irish music. So it can be done. It's just that it reguires pretty strong hands and fingers which means that you need to practise more than a lot and from the right beginning learn the right technique.
I'd recommend getting some BG guitar tutor books and start from there but what ever you do it will take a long time to become proficient.
Also, I don't actually believe that using tunings in fifths would be the answer with the guitar due to the long neck and therefore the long fret distances. I could also imagine that using the capo would eventually turn quite limiting.
Instead, the answer in my opinion is to learn the most important scales (D, G, A) from low to up the neck and to feel comfortable playing in these keys all over the place. It's a pretty good idea to first stick with the D scale for a longer time and to learn many D tunes so that the D key becomes your second nature. Then do the same with G scales and G tunes and then with the A.
But as you probably want to do the backing up thing too you could tune the low E to D for better bass playing. It really doesnt affect the melody playing at all, on the contrary.
Thanks for all the positive replies! Oh MYBC , I do have a mandolin and don't need any more instruments, Just don't want to relearn all the fingering when I switch between the two,and a guitar tuned like this may provide good backing as well as melody however foolish that may be.
I too prefere melody to backing on guitar ( strumming is NOT my strong point) and i've found that with enough practise you can play any speed, add ornamation etc. You just need really nimble fingers, and to be able to change the possition of your hands quickly. However i have recently bought a Bouzouki, as it seems to stand out so well beside guitars and has that lovely ringing sound. So now i will be picking, and not struming, on that
Maryland Highlander... are you referring to flatpicked tunes on guitar or fingerpicked. I think flatpicked is way easier, with fingerstyle you have a bunch of fingers doing different things at the same time, and it's lots harder.... but very satisfying!! You are essentially carring the melody and the backup at the same time, sort of piano like, only on piano or accordion one hand is backing, here the one hand is doing both. I find it very challenging, and do have a fair amount of tunes, but not that many will be up to usual speed. I like DADGAD for most.
Velvet... I like to do a cross between melody and backing on guitar...while backing that is. It's fingerstyle and not much strumming, just an occassional strum with the thumbpick for stressing something the melody is doing. I can get some pretty intense volume and attack with it. I love backing, just love it, it's like swimming, a great freedom with it.
I wouldn't know what to do with a flatpick if my life depended on it.... My brain is just trained to fingerstyle backing. I find it more interesting, more little nooks and crannies can be found in the backing, but a good flatpicker does that too, picks out some melody notes here and there.
Still, there are so many notes to hit on a guitar, I think mine might feel neglected if I didn't make full use of it.... I love fingerstyle backing, more melodic to my ear.... but sometimes I do get sick of my own playing. I heard Francis Gaffney the other night playing with John Carty, light flatpicking, fair amount of notes tossed in.... lovely playing.
Oh well.... um... back to fiddle tuning on guitar....
I just might have to try tuning a guitar to fifths. When I considered it (and never did it) years ago, I was thinking about how stretching is easier for me than string crossing. I spent a few minutes playing around on a tenor guitar tuned to fifths and it felt promising, but I’ve fooled myself before. Many times.
For me, flatpicking is considerably harder than fingerstyle. After being out of commission for several years, I got my fingerpicking back to a reasonable level, but I’m still frustrated by flatpicking. Some people seem to take naturally to one but not the other. And then there are those superhuman extraterrestrials like Tony McManus. It’s just so unfair…
Fiddle tuning on guitar
Fiddle tuning on guitar
Hi All,
After playing guitar for many years I've switched to mandolin for melody playing-could never quite get it on guitar. Lately I've tried mandolin tuning on the guitar ,capoed on the fifth fret.Top and bottom strings as drones.Still playing around with guages.Has anyone else tried anything like this?-Thanks
# Posted on November 12th 2006 by dorian
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Dorian,
When I decided to pursue ITM, I switched from guitar to mandolin; I love how accessible the tunes are, and the first position fiddle fingering.
If you feel more comfortable with the guitar, with single strings, with lower string tension, or just like that tone better, you might consider trying a tenor guitar. These are 4 string, and tuned in 5ths; traditionally CGDA I believe. And they can sound great for back-up too.
Another way to go might be a short-necked tenor banjo, tuned an octave below mandolin/fiddle. A really short scale, like 19" or less, can usally accommodate fiddle fingering (there's been lots of discussion and debate about this in past threads...).
There are some guitar players who can really do melody nicely, but it's not easy to be sure, and would be hard to keep up for a long night of tunes. One of the great ITM guitar players in my area plays melody for the occasional tune or parts of a tune, but mostly plays melody on banjo, when that's his desire.
# Posted on November 12th 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Some people tune their Tenor Guitars to GDAE. I use Fiddle fingering on my Octave Mandolin which has a 22" scale, not everyone can do that, but my point is that it can be done. Keith I once met a Guitar player who did the same thing, but that was in NJ so I doubt it was the same one.
# Posted on November 12th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
EADDAE works on the guitar for most tunes
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Bren
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
I have a guitar strung CCGDAE or DDGDAE for presicely this purpose.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Using a 6 string guitar in this way seems a bit of a novelty act. Scale length is too long for convincing "fiddle" playing at normal reel/jig pace. Get a fiddle, mandolin, tenor guitar or tenor banjo and be heard as well as respected.
Regards
MYBC
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
As a classical guitarist turning to ITM, I find that playing melody is what I want to do rather than strumming accompaniments, which I'm not much good at anyway. I'm familiar with the technical problems of fitting the tunes onto standard guitar tunings and scale length. Some tunes fit nicely, but often it just seems impossible. I'm working on a solution.
I am experimenting with using a standard guitar tuning except the G string tuned down a semitone to F# then using a capo at the fifth fret. This gives lowest to highest open strings ADGBEA. Effectively, this is the same tuning as a standard guitar without a capo but replacing the lowest (E) string with an extra high string (the E capoed at A). I rarely use the low E in ITM so that's no loss., but the top E string capoed at A means that I no longer have to stretch or make quick visits to higher positions to play round high Bs. The big advantage of this is that (apart from the additional high A string) tunes I have learnt to play on a 'normal' guitar retain the same fingering exactly - the only thing to get used to is playing everything a 'string lower'. Seems to work OK, though I won't say I'm up to session speed yet . Also using the capo at the fifth fret gives a more brilliant tone, and might make the sound more audible (to the player as well as others) in a session. One of the other problems for us finger-style players as actually feeling we are contributing something to the overall sound.
I'd be interested to know if anyone's tried this or something similar before.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Lissagriffin
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
All I know as a fingerstyle player for tunes, in DADGAD mainly, it is hard to keep up a lot of the speed, sometimes yes, depends on the tune. Usually it is just reserved for performances where I do a solo or two.
For fingerstyle backing, in dropped D, speed no problemo! A capo does "bright" things up a bit on tunes. I like some with a capo better whether or not it is necessary.
That wasn't the original question though.... what about getting a custom guitar with a long four string neck? I have seen bouzouki bodies with a guitar neck and vice versa, so why not if you are serious about this? You may find a luthier to adapt a guitar neck and retrofit it for you. You'd have to experiment with string guages after that to see what works...I'd suspect a set of tenor guitar strings may come close.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
You're right, irisnevins, I took this a bit off topic with my musings. I think I ought to start a new thread with my posting (I hope that's not some sort of breach of forum protocol!)
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Lissagriffin
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
I’ve seen classical guitarist Andrew York tune four strings to cello tuning to play a Bach cello piece. It worked well enough, but I like the transcriptions for standard tuning better. The cello tuning sounds great on the cello, but to my ear the harmony voices better in standard tuning on the guitar.
I’ve thought about trying fiddle tuning for flat-picking on the guitar. For me, the hardest part of flatpick guitar is string crossing, which is minimized when you tune to fifths. But, being lazy, I never actually tried it with proper string gauges.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
I dont think Irish tune melodies are that hard on the guitar... its just that its not done very often so when it comes to guitar, think about what is played on it normally-- Blues--- mostly licks and tricks--rock--the same---folk--chords---bluegrass/jazz---more licks and tricks with a bit of melody- pop---chords--
It's just a different way of playing. But this isnt the discussion.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Well I don't like giving away secrets but here's how to tune your guitar so you can easily play tunes you learn in mandolin/fiddle tuning.
DGDGAE
With this tuning you can get all the tunes in and add in nice drones and such things. I use this tuning a lot and contrary to what that eejit MYBC says, if you have the technique you can play any tune type no matter what speed. What exactly is the 'correct' speed for jigs and reels anyway?! I haven't seen any rules written in stone about this, why?, because there are no rules.
You can also be easily heard if you've a decent guitar, hard tension strings & provided you aren't in a really noisy session.
If you are in a really noisy session you won't be heard if you play mandolin or tenor guitar either, so in those situations it's best to play fiddle or banjo, or just leave and find a better session!
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by The Tune Composer
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Melody playing with the acoustic guitar is guite common in the Bluegrass music, and often much more up tempo than in the Irish music. So it can be done. It's just that it reguires pretty strong hands and fingers which means that you need to practise more than a lot and from the right beginning learn the right technique.
I'd recommend getting some BG guitar tutor books and start from there but what ever you do it will take a long time to become proficient.
Also, I don't actually believe that using tunings in fifths would be the answer with the guitar due to the long neck and therefore the long fret distances. I could also imagine that using the capo would eventually turn quite limiting.
Instead, the answer in my opinion is to learn the most important scales (D, G, A) from low to up the neck and to feel comfortable playing in these keys all over the place. It's a pretty good idea to first stick with the D scale for a longer time and to learn many D tunes so that the D key becomes your second nature. Then do the same with G scales and G tunes and then with the A.
But as you probably want to do the backing up thing too you could tune the low E to D for better bass playing. It really doesnt affect the melody playing at all, on the contrary.
# Posted on November 13th 2006 by Risto
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Thanks for all the positive replies! Oh MYBC , I do have a mandolin and don't need any more instruments, Just don't want to relearn all the fingering when I switch between the two,and a guitar tuned like this may provide good backing as well as melody however foolish that may be.
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by dorian
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
I too prefere melody to backing on guitar ( strumming is NOT my strong point) and i've found that with enough practise you can play any speed, add ornamation etc. You just need really nimble fingers, and to be able to change the possition of your hands quickly. However i have recently bought a Bouzouki, as it seems to stand out so well beside guitars and has that lovely ringing sound. So now i will be picking, and not struming, on that
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by velvet
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Oh... pedio... I wasn't scolding.... I just realized I was floating off myself and thought we may both get reprimanded, LOL!
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
Maryland Highlander... are you referring to flatpicked tunes on guitar or fingerpicked. I think flatpicked is way easier, with fingerstyle you have a bunch of fingers doing different things at the same time, and it's lots harder.... but very satisfying!! You are essentially carring the melody and the backup at the same time, sort of piano like, only on piano or accordion one hand is backing, here the one hand is doing both. I find it very challenging, and do have a fair amount of tunes, but not that many will be up to usual speed. I like DADGAD for most.
Velvet... I like to do a cross between melody and backing on guitar...while backing that is. It's fingerstyle and not much strumming, just an occassional strum with the thumbpick for stressing something the melody is doing. I can get some pretty intense volume and attack with it. I love backing, just love it, it's like swimming, a great freedom with it.
I wouldn't know what to do with a flatpick if my life depended on it.... My brain is just trained to fingerstyle backing. I find it more interesting, more little nooks and crannies can be found in the backing, but a good flatpicker does that too, picks out some melody notes here and there.
Still, there are so many notes to hit on a guitar, I think mine might feel neglected if I didn't make full use of it.... I love fingerstyle backing, more melodic to my ear.... but sometimes I do get sick of my own playing. I heard Francis Gaffney the other night playing with John Carty, light flatpicking, fair amount of notes tossed in.... lovely playing.
Oh well.... um... back to fiddle tuning on guitar....
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Fiddle tuning on guitar
I just might have to try tuning a guitar to fifths. When I considered it (and never did it) years ago, I was thinking about how stretching is easier for me than string crossing. I spent a few minutes playing around on a tenor guitar tuned to fifths and it felt promising, but I’ve fooled myself before. Many times.
For me, flatpicking is considerably harder than fingerstyle. After being out of commission for several years, I got my fingerpicking back to a reasonable level, but I’m still frustrated by flatpicking. Some people seem to take naturally to one but not the other. And then there are those superhuman extraterrestrials like Tony McManus. It’s just so unfair…
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by Bob himself