I looked through the archives but I couldn't really find an answer to this specific question-
In terms of timing, how are rolls different in jigs than they are in reels? Are they different? I'm still in the "practice rolls unbelievably slow" phase on my fiddle and I want to make sure I'm not learning them the wrong way. I've been listening to alot of recordings and slowing them down with Amazing Slow Downer but I still can't quite pinpoint the difference. Can anyone help?
On fiddle, playing long rolls (which cover the space of a dotted quarter note or three eighth notes), the main difference is in how long you might hold the first note.
In reels, it's fairly common to linger on that first note, letting the rest of the roll come slightly after the beat. It sounds like: DAAAAAH-di-di-di-dah.
In jigs, even long rolls tend to come a little more "on the beat," with less lingering on the first note. More like: DAH-di-di-di-dah.
Of course, you don't have to linger in reels, or not linger in jigs. It's up to you to set the internal timing of the roll, and you can vary it to suit your needs. For instance, many fluters and pipers tend to play rolls more evenly (dah-blah-blah) and with very poppy cuts and taps (not allowing their pitch to sound), so when playing fiddle with a fluter or piper, you can match his or her timing. You can also choose to be more percussive (where the only pitch heard is the note that's being rolled, a la Kevin Burke), or notey (where the pitch of each cut and tap are also heard, a la Seamus Connolly or Brian Conway).
I thing broadly speaking there are two types of roll, and these are interchangable between jigs and reels (and hornpipes and slides etc). Long rolls and short rolls, as Will describes. But the rolls themselves are the same, it's just where they start, on or behing the beet. After this, however, more personal style and subtleties can come into it. Putting two or three short rolls back to back etc.
DAAAAAH-di-di-di-dah whoosis, that are 5 notes, how to you spread those over the three quarters
Tottol, a roll wether short or long, is just a sequence of finger movements. The accentuation depends on the position of the roll in the rythm (bar). Sometimes I play a roll over the bar line, too.
On wind instruments some people do play the rolls "forward" or "backward", means they change the order of cuts and taps. Especially on the pipes this can change the accentuation quite a lot!
MH, that's because Tottol didn't ask what a roll is. Do a search for rolls, or better yet, long rolls, if you want to understand what they are. There are lots of old threads on that.
llig leahcim, try telling Kathleen Collins that you don't play short rolls in jigs. Listen to part 3, f#'s, the Humours of Ballyloughlin. Of course you can play them sometimes - and with really great effect. Please tell me I'm wrong, wouldn't want sessioneers to get the wrong info.
I should have read the thread more carefully. Didn't register the importance of the "?" So saxwhistle, short roles are also found and used to great effect sometimes in jigs. OK.
A long roll is a means of decorating 3 eighth notes of the same pitch. The first two are separated by a cut of very short duration and the second two are separated by a strike of very short duration.
A short roll is a means of decorating 2 eighth notes. The first is preceded by a cut of very short duration and there is a strike of very short duration between the two notes.
As for the duration of the notes, I don't think they should change; the cut and strike should be so small as to have indiscernible pitch and such small duration that they are audible just as a 'blip' between the other notes.
I'll try to describe some of the options pictorially:
In the diagrams above, an eighth note is represented by 8 'n's:
nnnnnnnn
The pitch of a cut is represented by a 'c' and a strike by an 's'.
Here are three eighth notes:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn
Here is a long roll (the 'n's in the top and bottom row indicate the cut and the strike respectively and, relative to the length of the eighth notes, they are of VERY short duration).
nnnnnnnn|cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn
Here are two eighth notes:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
Here is a short roll (the first of the notes is only just intruded into by a VERY short cut; the second has just a very tiny amount of time stolen from it by the strike).
cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
HOWEVER. (a very big 'however'):
If the three eighth notes are in a reel, they are probably being played with an equal duration (most people play reels evenly - although some play them with a slight 'swing'). This is the situation described above. However, in a jig, each set of three eighth notes is played with a slight emphasis on the first; this is often accomplished by lingering slightly on the first eighth note and removing that additional time from the second:
Even playing:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
Jig playing (1st note longer, 2nd note shorter):
nnnnnnnnnn|nnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
The rolls in a jig should reflect this:
A long roll in a jig:
nnnnnnnnnn|cnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
In other words, as mentioned above, the roll should not interfere with the appropriate note duration for whatever sort of tune one is playing:
Four eighth notes in a hornpipe (approximate timings):
nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|
A roll on the last three:
nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|cnnnnnnnnnn|snnnn|
But there is more:
If a roll in a reel starts on the 'off beat' (for example, if it starts on the 2nd eighth note in a bar), it sounds quite good to linger on the first of the three for quite a while before playing the cut and the strike:
Four even eighth notes in a reel:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
An evenly played roll on the last three:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
An alternative way of playing a reel (hang on the first note of the roll):
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnnnnnn|cnnnnn|snnnnn|
As another variation, it sounds quite good to play perfectly even rolls in a jig occasionally (even though much of the rest of the jig is played with the 'emphasis on the first note of each three' pattern).
And now for even more information:
It is quite possible to play the pattern of a long roll but to squeeze it in to only 2 eighth notes:
Two eighth notes (6 'n's each to make the total divisible by 2 and 3):
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
A long roll squeezed in to the space of 2 eighth notes:
nnnn|cnnn|snnn|
A short roll (in my terminology) is one which starts with the cut and a long roll is one which starts with the primary note being decorated. If you play a long roll pattern but in the space of two eighth notes, it is still a long roll (but you have to play it faster!).
Of course, this entire tirade started with the assumption that the cut and strike should take minimal duration. That's how I play them because I happen to think it sounds better on a whistle. However, other players and players of other instruments will play them in such a way that the pitch of the cut and strike can be very clearly heard:
nnnnnncc|ccnnnnss|ssnnnnnn|
And, to give more possible variations, it is possible (Matt Molloy does it fairly often) to squeeze a short roll on to just one eighth note:
One eighth note:
nnnnnnnn|
A short roll squeezed on to one eighth note:
cnnnsnnn|
There are many more possibilities:
A double cut roll divides the 2nd and 3rd eighth notes in to three and decorates them as follows (back to 6 'n's per note)
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
becomes
nnnnnn|nnnn|nnnn|nnnn|
becomes
nnnnnn|cnnn|cnnn|snnn|
Generally this uses a different cutting pitch for each cut
A double cut short roll is exactly the same but misses the initial note:
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
becomes
nnnn|nnnn|nnnn|
becomes
cnnn|cnnn|snnn|
A cran (adopted from piping technique) would replace the cut and the strike with two, three or even four cuts, dividing the eighth notes in to as many parts as required.
There are so many ways of doing things that I am sure this hasn't covered anywhere near all the variations people actually play but here are my recommendations for learning rolls on any instrument:
1. Get your cuts and strikes to absolutely minimum durations. In other words, practice doing them until you can get their duration down to the point where you can't hear the pitch and they operate just as articulations on the main note. This may not be the way you end up playing them but if you can't play them like this you have limited your options for variations.
2. Start playing long rolls perfectly evenly using your minimum duration cuts and strikes. They should sound at this stage as though you are just playing three instances of the main note but without using your tongue (whistle) or bow (fiddle) - in other words they should sound like 'dah-dah-dah' and not like 'dah-didah-dumdah'.
3. Try the same for short rolls - 'dah-dah' and not 'didah-dumdah'.
4. Play with the durations of the main notes (still keeping the cuts and strikes really short) and experiment with how different durations affect the feeling of the rolls. Try it with rolls which start on the beat, off the beat, which span bar ends, which happen in reels, jigs, hornpipes, etc.
5. Now you have got lots and lots and lots of practice with short cuts and strikes, start to elongate them and notice whether you like the ripple affect of hearing the pitches of the longer cut and strike or whether you prefer the percussive affect of the short ones.
6. Try some of the variations - double cut rolls, squeezed long rolls and short rolls, crans, etc.
7. (probably should have been 1a, 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a and 6a) Find some players of your instrument and ask them what they do and how they learnt. Recordings are also very good, but only when you have the ear and the experience to know what you are listening for. Make sure you record your practices as well. Listening to what you did without the instrument in your hand is much much easier.
9. Refuse to settle on just one way of playing rolls. Start using different options to introduce a sort of 'mood' to your playing.
8. Enjoy it. Playing without rolls can be just as nice.
For rolls, I usually use a counting technique. I just count 1-2-3 for jigs. For reels, most often there is one roll and an eight note. I just treat that as a 4-count, counting 1-2-3 for the roll, and -4 for the last note, or visa versa.
roll timing in jigs vs reels
roll timing in jigs vs reels
Hi everyone,
I looked through the archives but I couldn't really find an answer to this specific question-
In terms of timing, how are rolls different in jigs than they are in reels? Are they different? I'm still in the "practice rolls unbelievably slow" phase on my fiddle and I want to make sure I'm not learning them the wrong way. I've been listening to alot of recordings and slowing them down with Amazing Slow Downer but I still can't quite pinpoint the difference. Can anyone help?
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by Tottol
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
Warning: Generalities ahead.
On fiddle, playing long rolls (which cover the space of a dotted quarter note or three eighth notes), the main difference is in how long you might hold the first note.
In reels, it's fairly common to linger on that first note, letting the rest of the roll come slightly after the beat. It sounds like: DAAAAAH-di-di-di-dah.
In jigs, even long rolls tend to come a little more "on the beat," with less lingering on the first note. More like: DAH-di-di-di-dah.
Of course, you don't have to linger in reels, or not linger in jigs. It's up to you to set the internal timing of the roll, and you can vary it to suit your needs. For instance, many fluters and pipers tend to play rolls more evenly (dah-blah-blah) and with very poppy cuts and taps (not allowing their pitch to sound), so when playing fiddle with a fluter or piper, you can match his or her timing. You can also choose to be more percussive (where the only pitch heard is the note that's being rolled, a la Kevin Burke), or notey (where the pitch of each cut and tap are also heard, a la Seamus Connolly or Brian Conway).
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
I thing broadly speaking there are two types of roll, and these are interchangable between jigs and reels (and hornpipes and slides etc). Long rolls and short rolls, as Will describes. But the rolls themselves are the same, it's just where they start, on or behing the beet. After this, however, more personal style and subtleties can come into it. Putting two or three short rolls back to back etc.
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by ...
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
DAAAAAH-di-di-di-dah whoosis, that are 5 notes, how to you spread those over the three quarters
Tottol, a roll wether short or long, is just a sequence of finger movements. The accentuation depends on the position of the roll in the rythm (bar). Sometimes I play a roll over the bar line, too.
On wind instruments some people do play the rolls "forward" or "backward", means they change the order of cuts and taps. Especially on the pipes this can change the accentuation quite a lot!
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by swisspiper
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
from how i play them on the whistle. and from what i can haer an long (dotted crochet roll0 is the same legth in both reels and jigs.
short (croctet rolls) are only found in reels/ hornpipes/ anthing in 4/4 time.
long roll Dah---da-la-dum
short roll da-da-la-dum
just in a long roll the note is held for a short time (about the lenght og a quaver) before cutting and then tapping quickly.....
wheras in a short roll you dont hold the note first.
hope you understand what am saying...
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by saxwhistle
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
you don't play short rolls in jigs? try it
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by ...
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
I didnt know what a roll was before I read this... and after... I still don't!
# Posted on November 3rd 2006 by The Merry Highlander
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
MH, that's because Tottol didn't ask what a roll is. Do a search for rolls, or better yet, long rolls, if you want to understand what they are. There are lots of old threads on that.
# Posted on November 3rd 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
llig leahcim, try telling Kathleen Collins that you don't play short rolls in jigs. Listen to part 3, f#'s, the Humours of Ballyloughlin. Of course you can play them sometimes - and with really great effect. Please tell me I'm wrong, wouldn't want sessioneers to get the wrong info.
# Posted on November 5th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
Sorry old scraper, It was a question, "You don't play short rolls in jigs?" I was endorsing it.
# Posted on November 5th 2006 by ...
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
I should have read the thread more carefully. Didn't register the importance of the "?" So saxwhistle, short roles are also found and used to great effect sometimes in jigs. OK.
# Posted on November 5th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
rolls
# Posted on November 5th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
rolls
I love it. Possibly the best single post I ever seen on this web site. Lovely. So simple. Inspired.
# Posted on November 5th 2006 by ...
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
Here is my take on this as a whistle player:
A long roll is a means of decorating 3 eighth notes of the same pitch. The first two are separated by a cut of very short duration and the second two are separated by a strike of very short duration.
A short roll is a means of decorating 2 eighth notes. The first is preceded by a cut of very short duration and there is a strike of very short duration between the two notes.
As for the duration of the notes, I don't think they should change; the cut and strike should be so small as to have indiscernible pitch and such small duration that they are audible just as a 'blip' between the other notes.
I'll try to describe some of the options pictorially:
In the diagrams above, an eighth note is represented by 8 'n's:
nnnnnnnn
The pitch of a cut is represented by a 'c' and a strike by an 's'.
Here are three eighth notes:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn
Here is a long roll (the 'n's in the top and bottom row indicate the cut and the strike respectively and, relative to the length of the eighth notes, they are of VERY short duration).
nnnnnnnn|cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn
Here are two eighth notes:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
Here is a short roll (the first of the notes is only just intruded into by a VERY short cut; the second has just a very tiny amount of time stolen from it by the strike).
cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
HOWEVER. (a very big 'however'):
If the three eighth notes are in a reel, they are probably being played with an equal duration (most people play reels evenly - although some play them with a slight 'swing'). This is the situation described above. However, in a jig, each set of three eighth notes is played with a slight emphasis on the first; this is often accomplished by lingering slightly on the first eighth note and removing that additional time from the second:
Even playing:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
Jig playing (1st note longer, 2nd note shorter):
nnnnnnnnnn|nnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
The rolls in a jig should reflect this:
A long roll in a jig:
nnnnnnnnnn|cnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
In other words, as mentioned above, the roll should not interfere with the appropriate note duration for whatever sort of tune one is playing:
Four eighth notes in a hornpipe (approximate timings):
nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|
A roll on the last three:
nnnnnnnnnnn|nnnnn|cnnnnnnnnnn|snnnn|
But there is more:
If a roll in a reel starts on the 'off beat' (for example, if it starts on the 2nd eighth note in a bar), it sounds quite good to linger on the first of the three for quite a while before playing the cut and the strike:
Four even eighth notes in a reel:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|
An evenly played roll on the last three:
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnn|cnnnnnnn|snnnnnnn|
An alternative way of playing a reel (hang on the first note of the roll):
nnnnnnnn|nnnnnnnnnnnn|cnnnnn|snnnnn|
As another variation, it sounds quite good to play perfectly even rolls in a jig occasionally (even though much of the rest of the jig is played with the 'emphasis on the first note of each three' pattern).
And now for even more information:
It is quite possible to play the pattern of a long roll but to squeeze it in to only 2 eighth notes:
Two eighth notes (6 'n's each to make the total divisible by 2 and 3):
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
A long roll squeezed in to the space of 2 eighth notes:
nnnn|cnnn|snnn|
A short roll (in my terminology) is one which starts with the cut and a long roll is one which starts with the primary note being decorated. If you play a long roll pattern but in the space of two eighth notes, it is still a long roll (but you have to play it faster!).
Of course, this entire tirade started with the assumption that the cut and strike should take minimal duration. That's how I play them because I happen to think it sounds better on a whistle. However, other players and players of other instruments will play them in such a way that the pitch of the cut and strike can be very clearly heard:
nnnnnncc|ccnnnnss|ssnnnnnn|
And, to give more possible variations, it is possible (Matt Molloy does it fairly often) to squeeze a short roll on to just one eighth note:
One eighth note:
nnnnnnnn|
A short roll squeezed on to one eighth note:
cnnnsnnn|
There are many more possibilities:
A double cut roll divides the 2nd and 3rd eighth notes in to three and decorates them as follows (back to 6 'n's per note)
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
becomes
nnnnnn|nnnn|nnnn|nnnn|
becomes
nnnnnn|cnnn|cnnn|snnn|
Generally this uses a different cutting pitch for each cut
A double cut short roll is exactly the same but misses the initial note:
nnnnnn|nnnnnn|
becomes
nnnn|nnnn|nnnn|
becomes
cnnn|cnnn|snnn|
A cran (adopted from piping technique) would replace the cut and the strike with two, three or even four cuts, dividing the eighth notes in to as many parts as required.
There are so many ways of doing things that I am sure this hasn't covered anywhere near all the variations people actually play but here are my recommendations for learning rolls on any instrument:
1. Get your cuts and strikes to absolutely minimum durations. In other words, practice doing them until you can get their duration down to the point where you can't hear the pitch and they operate just as articulations on the main note. This may not be the way you end up playing them but if you can't play them like this you have limited your options for variations.
2. Start playing long rolls perfectly evenly using your minimum duration cuts and strikes. They should sound at this stage as though you are just playing three instances of the main note but without using your tongue (whistle) or bow (fiddle) - in other words they should sound like 'dah-dah-dah' and not like 'dah-didah-dumdah'.
3. Try the same for short rolls - 'dah-dah' and not 'didah-dumdah'.
4. Play with the durations of the main notes (still keeping the cuts and strikes really short) and experiment with how different durations affect the feeling of the rolls. Try it with rolls which start on the beat, off the beat, which span bar ends, which happen in reels, jigs, hornpipes, etc.
5. Now you have got lots and lots and lots of practice with short cuts and strikes, start to elongate them and notice whether you like the ripple affect of hearing the pitches of the longer cut and strike or whether you prefer the percussive affect of the short ones.
6. Try some of the variations - double cut rolls, squeezed long rolls and short rolls, crans, etc.
7. (probably should have been 1a, 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a and 6a) Find some players of your instrument and ask them what they do and how they learnt. Recordings are also very good, but only when you have the ear and the experience to know what you are listening for. Make sure you record your practices as well. Listening to what you did without the instrument in your hand is much much easier.
9. Refuse to settle on just one way of playing rolls. Start using different options to introduce a sort of 'mood' to your playing.
8. Enjoy it. Playing without rolls can be just as nice.
John
# Posted on November 6th 2006 by john.boniface
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
For rolls, I usually use a counting technique. I just count 1-2-3 for jigs. For reels, most often there is one roll and an eight note. I just treat that as a 4-count, counting 1-2-3 for the roll, and -4 for the last note, or visa versa.
# Posted on November 6th 2006 by enirehtac
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
im sorry john.boniface, but what you added to this conversation is one of the most confusing things i have ever read???
am still stunned...
like really,
i thought my explaination was complicated....
# Posted on November 12th 2006 by saxwhistle
Re: roll timing in jigs vs reels
Pardon?
# Posted on November 14th 2006 by dafydd