Okay, this is my first fiddle, so I seriously don't know any better, but it seems to me that it's awfully strange that the pegs are slipping on me about once a day ever since the weather cooled off and the humidity lowered. I opened the case yesterday and the G string peg had slipped so much that the string was completely off the peg and I had to re-wind it. And then sometimes I'll be playing and I'll hear a pop! and my A string will be slack...and then I start re-tuning it, and then all the other pegs slip and I'm re-tuning all of them.
What makes it even more of a pain is that the pegs don't like to stay where I put them, either. I have to really push hard to make them stay. My teacher doesn't seem to think this is much of a problem (but I think they were just behaving well for him that day). The luthier where I bought the thing said that the pegs would be easier to manage after I'd played with them a while. I'm not convinced.
So is this normal? Do I just have to get used to it? Do I need those peg drop things? Or do I need a professional to look at the pegs? All advice is appreciated!
A change in humidity will often make fiddle pegs slip. (I remember a gig where my fiddle, sitting unattended but still plugged into the PA, had a peg suddenly slip. The sound was unmistakeable.) Chalk can sometimes provide a quick fix. Or if the weather stops changing, the problem could go away on its own. Otherwise, a return to the luthier for a touch-up on the pegs might be needed.
I was told many years ago that I could help make my pegs not only stop slipping but also stop sticking (both?! yes, surprisingly) by covering the pegs where they touch the peg box with soft graphite pencil (3b). I've done it ever since and it's worked for me.
When routing the strings onto the pegs ensure that the string will try to pull the peg into the hole so as to give it that little bit more tightness and resist slipping. This is easy with the A and D but rather more difficult with the G and E.
My practice with the E is to have the peg in fairly tight because that string is always tuned from the adjuster. Consequently, my E is so stable I often use it as a reference for tuning.
In most fiddles the pegbox design in combination with the width of the finger board and the position of the grooves in the nut precludes this ideal routing of the G string onto the peg. I just do the best I can.
When routing a string onto a peg try to avoid the final winding of the string rubbing up against the inside of the pegbox. This makes tuning that more difficult and causes wear on the string. The only exception I make is with the G-string. Because of the impossibility of attaining the ideal string routing on this peg (the routing that tries to pull the peg into the hole) I do let the string touch the inside of the pegbox. However, I dry-lubricate the inside of the pegbox in this area with a soft graphite pencil. This does the job. Some strings (such as the Vision Titaniums) have a special section of winding to help with a possible string-pegbox contact.
When routing the strings onto the pegs ensure that the string will try to pull the peg into the hole so as to give it that little bit more tightness and resist slipping. This is easy with the A and D but rather more difficult with the G and E.
My practice with the E is to have the peg in fairly tight because that string is always tuned from the adjuster. Consequently, my E is so stable I often use it as a reference for tuning.
In most fiddles the pegbox design in combination with the width of the finger board and the position of the grooves in the nut precludes this ideal routing of the G string onto the peg. I just do the best I can.
When routing a string onto a peg try to avoid the final winding of the string rubbing up against the inside of the pegbox. This makes tuning that more difficult and causes wear on the string. The only exception I make is with the G-string. Because of the impossibility of attaining the ideal string routing on this peg (the routing that tries to pull the peg into the hole) I do let the string touch the inside of the pegbox. However, I dry-lubricate the inside of the pegbox in this area with a soft graphite pencil. This does the job. Some strings (such as the Vision Titaniums) have a special section of winding to help with a possible string-pegbox contact.
Thanks all. I will try the pencil idea. This fiddle is becoming like a child, the way I've started fussing over it and tending to its every need...is it sick? Does it need to go to the doctor? I should get a cat. They're much better at self-mainenance.
Yep - know I'm having a bad fiddle day when the cats give me disgusted looks and leap the back fence, and the 12 year old Labrador (who's technically deaf) decides to start howling or playing percussion on her water bowl.
I think I read somewhere that you shouldn't put rosin on the pegs. The traditional remedy is chalk for slippage and hard soap to make them turn more easily - sometimes a combination of the two to get it right (but the pegs have to fit the holes and you need special tools to get this right). A little artist's pastel applied to the peg where it touches the peg box holes can help and the advantage is you can get a good colour match. I haven't tried graphite, but that's a lubricant (you're meant to put a little on the nut and in the string grooves of the bridge). You need to push the peg in as you turn it so press the scroll against the palm of your other hand, but don't force them in too tight as you can get peg box splits as in an adjacent thread. Some people can just hold the fiddle in the playing position and turn the pegs easily with their left hand while bowing, effortlessly tuning to perfect fifths by ear (don't you just hate those people! )
Yes, if you put rosin on the pegs they will stay where you put them - for ever - and ever - and ever. It's rather like gluing them in place. You'll never be able to tune them again.
"Some people can just hold the fiddle in the playing position and turn the pegs easily with their left hand while bowing"
This is something I can do, only most of the time my pegs won't cooperate because they don't stay in place when I let go, so I have to take the thing into my lap and push against my right hand, by which time the string is not tuned to the exact place I had it when it was up by my chin. I really have to fix this problem...
The nice thing about tuning in fifths with the bow is that you can take the string you're tuning far below pitch, and then it's actually easier to tell when you've got it right both because the difference in pitch is so noticable and because the beats go away. I have a much harder time telling the difference between microtones.
Kennedy, have you checked that the strings slip through the grooves in the nut very easily? Any sticking there will negate the advantages of smooth peg turning. The standard procedure of dry lubricating the grooves with pencil graphite may not be enough; there could still be too much resistance if the groove is too narrow or there is too sharp an angle when the string goes from the groove to the peg. If you suspect this, then a luthier will be able to fix it. As I've said before, the devil indeed is in the detail!
If the A-string is the troublesome one, because of its higher tension (around 13 lbs, I think), then a useful halfway house is to have a micrometer adjuster for the A in addition to the E. I've seen some instruments set up in this manner.
As a supreme example of what can be done by tuning from the pegs while bowing, I know a concert soloist who does just that on the concert platform - but with the steel-cored Helicores he always uses. Shows what can be done with a perfect setup on an early 18th c Italian fiddle. Btw, he's not only a great player but a great guy to know as well.
Trevor, thanks for the tips. I went to the luthier to buy a shoulder rest (the old sponge-and-rubber-band thing isn't doing it for me anymore) and it turns out I probably have a bigger problem than I feared---the pegs are in too far already and the peg holes will need to be re-bushed some time soon. So now I have to call the place where I bought it and convince them to do this for me without charging (otherwise it will cost me about $500).
I never realized what an expensive hobby this fiddle-playing was going to be...
Very cool thing, though---there was a virtuoso hanging out at the shop and he played my violin for me, and says I need new strings to bring out the roundness of the sound (not sure exactly what he meant by that...)---they figure Tonica strings are what I need. Have you heard of them?
Kennedy, I've heard of Tonicas, but I don't think I've ever knowingly heard them - if you know what I mean - so I can't advise one way or the other; but if they're not too expensive you won't lose much by giving them a chance. It's probable that the virtuoso you met, and the luthier, have so much experience that they have an instinctive feel for the sort of string that would suit a particular fiddle.
Thanks again. I've seen Tonicas on GoStrings for $31, so it can't hurt to try them. Oh yeah, he played my violin with a $50,000 bow. Then he handed my instrument back to me along with the bow. I gave the bow right back to him---I was too nervous to have it in my hand!
Turns out he didn't really like the bow anyway, said it was too heavy at the frog end. We fiddlers are a particular sort, aren't we?
Hi
provided the pegs have the same taper as the pegbox, 2 degrees, there is a way to cure the pegs from slipping. Take a piece of dry soap and rub it on the peg where it contacts the pegbox and fit the peg back intot he pegbox, push and turn the peg and work the soap into the pegbox wall. Do the same with some chalk (any chalk) and you will start to feel the peg grip, if you require more grip repeat the chalk. This method has been used for centuries, long before peg pastes were invented and work better.
Good Luck
Slipping pegs
Slipping pegs
Okay, this is my first fiddle, so I seriously don't know any better, but it seems to me that it's awfully strange that the pegs are slipping on me about once a day ever since the weather cooled off and the humidity lowered. I opened the case yesterday and the G string peg had slipped so much that the string was completely off the peg and I had to re-wind it. And then sometimes I'll be playing and I'll hear a pop! and my A string will be slack...and then I start re-tuning it, and then all the other pegs slip and I'm re-tuning all of them.
What makes it even more of a pain is that the pegs don't like to stay where I put them, either. I have to really push hard to make them stay. My teacher doesn't seem to think this is much of a problem (but I think they were just behaving well for him that day). The luthier where I bought the thing said that the pegs would be easier to manage after I'd played with them a while. I'm not convinced.
So is this normal? Do I just have to get used to it? Do I need those peg drop things? Or do I need a professional to look at the pegs? All advice is appreciated!
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by kennedy
Re: Slipping pegs
A change in humidity will often make fiddle pegs slip. (I remember a gig where my fiddle, sitting unattended but still plugged into the PA, had a peg suddenly slip. The sound was unmistakeable.) Chalk can sometimes provide a quick fix. Or if the weather stops changing, the problem could go away on its own. Otherwise, a return to the luthier for a touch-up on the pegs might be needed.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by mickray
Re: Slipping pegs
FWIW, I'm having the exact problem. It takes me forever to tune.
GAAAACK!!!
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Slipping pegs
I was told many years ago that I could help make my pegs not only stop slipping but also stop sticking (both?! yes, surprisingly) by covering the pegs where they touch the peg box with soft graphite pencil (3b). I've done it ever since and it's worked for me.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Slipping pegs
Yep, the pencil solution is cheap, simple and effective.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: Slipping pegs
When routing the strings onto the pegs ensure that the string will try to pull the peg into the hole so as to give it that little bit more tightness and resist slipping. This is easy with the A and D but rather more difficult with the G and E.
My practice with the E is to have the peg in fairly tight because that string is always tuned from the adjuster. Consequently, my E is so stable I often use it as a reference for tuning.
In most fiddles the pegbox design in combination with the width of the finger board and the position of the grooves in the nut precludes this ideal routing of the G string onto the peg. I just do the best I can.
When routing a string onto a peg try to avoid the final winding of the string rubbing up against the inside of the pegbox. This makes tuning that more difficult and causes wear on the string. The only exception I make is with the G-string. Because of the impossibility of attaining the ideal string routing on this peg (the routing that tries to pull the peg into the hole) I do let the string touch the inside of the pegbox. However, I dry-lubricate the inside of the pegbox in this area with a soft graphite pencil. This does the job. Some strings (such as the Vision Titaniums) have a special section of winding to help with a possible string-pegbox contact.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Slipping pegs
When routing the strings onto the pegs ensure that the string will try to pull the peg into the hole so as to give it that little bit more tightness and resist slipping. This is easy with the A and D but rather more difficult with the G and E.
My practice with the E is to have the peg in fairly tight because that string is always tuned from the adjuster. Consequently, my E is so stable I often use it as a reference for tuning.
In most fiddles the pegbox design in combination with the width of the finger board and the position of the grooves in the nut precludes this ideal routing of the G string onto the peg. I just do the best I can.
When routing a string onto a peg try to avoid the final winding of the string rubbing up against the inside of the pegbox. This makes tuning that more difficult and causes wear on the string. The only exception I make is with the G-string. Because of the impossibility of attaining the ideal string routing on this peg (the routing that tries to pull the peg into the hole) I do let the string touch the inside of the pegbox. However, I dry-lubricate the inside of the pegbox in this area with a soft graphite pencil. This does the job. Some strings (such as the Vision Titaniums) have a special section of winding to help with a possible string-pegbox contact.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Slipping pegs
I know you are renowned for good advice Trev, but come on now ...
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Slipping pegs
Thanks all. I will try the pencil idea. This fiddle is becoming like a child, the way I've started fussing over it and tending to its every need...is it sick? Does it need to go to the doctor? I should get a cat. They're much better at self-mainenance.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by kennedy
Re: Slipping pegs
Peg soap would be the answer.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by dafydd
Re: Slipping pegs
Sometimes cats sound better
A bit of french chalkdressmakers chalk on the pegs always worked for me.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by bowburner
Re: Slipping pegs
Yep - know I'm having a bad fiddle day when the cats give me disgusted looks and leap the back fence, and the 12 year old Labrador (who's technically deaf) decides to start howling or playing percussion on her water bowl.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Slipping pegs
As with most instruments, and the fiddle in particulqr, the devil is in the detail if you want the best results.
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Slipping pegs
Hill peg compound should help and be the more ideal solution. If that doesn't work a trip to the luthier is in order.
David B
# Posted on October 31st 2006 by fiddler59
Re: Slipping pegs
I heard someone say to use some rosin and brush it on the pegs. Apparently this will help them stay were you put them.
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by enirehtac
Re: Slipping pegs
I think I read somewhere that you shouldn't put rosin on the pegs. The traditional remedy is chalk for slippage and hard soap to make them turn more easily - sometimes a combination of the two to get it right (but the pegs have to fit the holes and you need special tools to get this right). A little artist's pastel applied to the peg where it touches the peg box holes can help and the advantage is you can get a good colour match. I haven't tried graphite, but that's a lubricant (you're meant to put a little on the nut and in the string grooves of the bridge). You need to push the peg in as you turn it so press the scroll against the palm of your other hand, but don't force them in too tight as you can get peg box splits as in an adjacent thread. Some people can just hold the fiddle in the playing position and turn the pegs easily with their left hand while bowing, effortlessly tuning to perfect fifths by ear (don't you just hate those people! )
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by RichardB
Re: Slipping pegs
...when I say pastel I mean chalk pastel not oil pastel!
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by RichardB
Re: Slipping pegs
Yes, if you put rosin on the pegs they will stay where you put them - for ever - and ever - and ever. It's rather like gluing them in place. You'll never be able to tune them again.
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by c.g.
Re: Slipping pegs
"Some people can just hold the fiddle in the playing position and turn the pegs easily with their left hand while bowing"
This is something I can do, only most of the time my pegs won't cooperate because they don't stay in place when I let go, so I have to take the thing into my lap and push against my right hand, by which time the string is not tuned to the exact place I had it when it was up by my chin. I really have to fix this problem...
The nice thing about tuning in fifths with the bow is that you can take the string you're tuning far below pitch, and then it's actually easier to tell when you've got it right both because the difference in pitch is so noticable and because the beats go away. I have a much harder time telling the difference between microtones.
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by kennedy
Re: Slipping pegs
Kennedy, have you checked that the strings slip through the grooves in the nut very easily? Any sticking there will negate the advantages of smooth peg turning. The standard procedure of dry lubricating the grooves with pencil graphite may not be enough; there could still be too much resistance if the groove is too narrow or there is too sharp an angle when the string goes from the groove to the peg. If you suspect this, then a luthier will be able to fix it. As I've said before, the devil indeed is in the detail!
If the A-string is the troublesome one, because of its higher tension (around 13 lbs, I think), then a useful halfway house is to have a micrometer adjuster for the A in addition to the E. I've seen some instruments set up in this manner.
As a supreme example of what can be done by tuning from the pegs while bowing, I know a concert soloist who does just that on the concert platform - but with the steel-cored Helicores he always uses. Shows what can be done with a perfect setup on an early 18th c Italian fiddle. Btw, he's not only a great player but a great guy to know as well.
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Slipping pegs
Trevor, thanks for the tips. I went to the luthier to buy a shoulder rest (the old sponge-and-rubber-band thing isn't doing it for me anymore) and it turns out I probably have a bigger problem than I feared---the pegs are in too far already and the peg holes will need to be re-bushed some time soon. So now I have to call the place where I bought it and convince them to do this for me without charging (otherwise it will cost me about $500).
I never realized what an expensive hobby this fiddle-playing was going to be...
Very cool thing, though---there was a virtuoso hanging out at the shop and he played my violin for me, and says I need new strings to bring out the roundness of the sound (not sure exactly what he meant by that...)---they figure Tonica strings are what I need. Have you heard of them?
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by kennedy
Re: Slipping pegs
Kennedy, I've heard of Tonicas, but I don't think I've ever knowingly heard them - if you know what I mean - so I can't advise one way or the other; but if they're not too expensive you won't lose much by giving them a chance. It's probable that the virtuoso you met, and the luthier, have so much experience that they have an instinctive feel for the sort of string that would suit a particular fiddle.
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Slipping pegs
Thanks again. I've seen Tonicas on GoStrings for $31, so it can't hurt to try them. Oh yeah, he played my violin with a $50,000 bow. Then he handed my instrument back to me along with the bow. I gave the bow right back to him---I was too nervous to have it in my hand!
Turns out he didn't really like the bow anyway, said it was too heavy at the frog end. We fiddlers are a particular sort, aren't we?
# Posted on November 2nd 2006 by kennedy
Re: Slipping pegs
Hi
provided the pegs have the same taper as the pegbox, 2 degrees, there is a way to cure the pegs from slipping. Take a piece of dry soap and rub it on the peg where it contacts the pegbox and fit the peg back intot he pegbox, push and turn the peg and work the soap into the pegbox wall. Do the same with some chalk (any chalk) and you will start to feel the peg grip, if you require more grip repeat the chalk. This method has been used for centuries, long before peg pastes were invented and work better.
Good Luck
# Posted on November 4th 2006 by Mikea