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Lead guitar

Lead guitar

Hi.

I'm new to this site and session playing ( this is i have yet to do any :)) However i've been playing guitar for about 17 years now and i feel its time i took it out of the living room.
Unlike a lot of people, i learnt fingerstyle/lead guitar rather then rythm and played that for several years so i'm much more comfortable with that then strumming. My question is, is there a place for lead guitar in sessions or with all the louder instruments etc. should i really be thinking about backing?

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by velvet

Re: Lead guitar

Hi
Depends on the session! a problem with backing is that there isn't really room in a session for more than one guitar, accordion or whatever doing backing, unless you have very sensitive players that listen to each other's chords, or take turns. So if you want to do backing, you might have to find a session where there isn't already a resident guitar player. There is certainly room for guitar playing tunes in sessions that I know, especially ones with other quietish instruments. If you have the facility to do both - sometimes backing, sometimes playing the tune - so much the better! I wouldn't describe this as 'lead' guitar, though :) I'd suggest going along to potential sessions to listen first. I think you'll soon get a feel for what's appropriate.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by patsy

Re: Lead guitar

We've had this discussion several times but with varying opinions. It really depends where you are. Many sessions just prefer the guitarist to do "backing". Depending on the type of session, this might not even be that adventurous and anything "too clever" might be frowned upon. I found this with older Scottish players a few years back as I've previously reported here.

However, times have moved on and there's plenty of great players on the scene today e.g. John Doyle etc so there's much more scope for imaginative accompaniment and it's much more acceptable. Having said that, the general "unwritten" rule about one guitarist at a time usually still applies.

The consensus here is that melody playing on guitar (not referred to as "lead" in trad music) is much more acceptable these days too, especially in Irish music. However, it might not always be heard on an acoustic guitar and, if you take a mini amp into a session, you'll get a few looks!! Still, there will be moments in a session when it might be very appropriate to do this. Just "play it by ear" so to speak.

Oh, if you're used to playing lead guitar and melody etc, this should make it much easier to get the hang of another melody instrument such as a mandolin, bouzouki, fiddle etc and these are certainly very welcome in most sessions although (out of these three) some purists might only consider the fiddle to be a true instrument for Irish music. :-)

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Johannes J

Re: Lead guitar

I am learning fiddle now but as i've only just started ( been playing about 6 months) it maybe some time before i can take it out anywhere.
Also been looking into tenor guitars, which i believe can be tuned GDAE like a fiddle, but very hard to get hold of in uk, and not that common anywhere by the looks of it, plus, i'm a student so bit straped for cash. Though about mandolin but its a bit high pitched for me, i like the sound well enough, but don't know if i'd like to play it myself. Don't really know much about bouzouki.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by velvet

Re: Lead guitar

You could get an octave mandolin instead, if you prefer a lower pitch.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Johannes J

Re: Lead guitar

Do the right thing

get a nice tenor banjo and tune it GDAE

MYBC

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by millionyears_bc

Re: Lead guitar

I was in a similar situation to yourself about 2 years ago. I would go with the bouzouki and try to pick up tunes and do a bit of backing, while trying to absorb what the fiddlers and pipers were doing. I would ask the names of the tunes that caught my ear and then work on them at home on the fiddle. As you get more comfortable on the fiddle you can join in. It is important to be at the right session, though. I was fortunate enough to have a good group of people that were open and receptive to a newer player, especially because there isnt a huge scene around here.
Go to a few session sans instrument and get a feel for the atmosphere, the speed and the personalities first.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Splendid Isolation

Re: Lead guitar

Hi Velvet,

I play Trad Guitar almost exclusively, so I can speak with a certain amount of experience to you. I have been playing guitar for over 45 years and I’ve been involved in it all. I also mentor an Irish trad session.

I have found that an Irish Trad Session can be a very strange place for a guitarist, even though we as guitarists can point to a rich history of our instrument and we have many wonderfully accomplished, world class and world famous Irish guitarists.

>> Firstly, playing Irish Trad Music (ITM) is about the playing the tune. It is melodic. After that, the tune can becomes beautifully embellished by the musician(s). It’s important to learn to play the melody of the tunes, after that you can learn to do the backing or accompaniment, and this absolutely must be done accurately and properly because the meter of ITM is extremely important.

>> If you play finger style only, you will be quite limited. It’s nice to play both. I do not play finger style in trad sessios. I play plectrum style and I play the melody with other players. If I am the only guitar I will play backup.

>> Stay acoustic. Would you take the noble and proud Highland Pipes to a classical chamber music group?? Of course not, so some of this has to do with common sensibilities. Therefore please understand that an electric guitar has no place in an ITM “session”.

>> Learn the much documented session rules of etiquette and abide in them. Session playing is a group effort and there is no place for big fat egos, even though this does happen.

>> In many sessions, and to many musicians, you are a second class person, even though the history and viability of the guitar in Celtic music and ITM has long been established. I have experienced this first hand. Many ITM players do not want you there with them, so you must be brave. They will actually snub you and will not play with you. Some guitar players bring this upon them selves by not being courteous. In some cases, a session can become infested with guitars because it is one of the most popular instruments in the world. The issue of the Guitar in ITM will never go away until all players begin to accept ITM for what it is today, and not for what they think it should be.

My best advice to you is to go to numerous session before you take your guitar and just listen, listen, and listen. While you are doing this, take advantage of the large wealth of tutorial products available today on learning Irish Guitar; buy CD’s of Irish guitar masters and listen to them and how the play the tunes; and then hook up with a mentor and play and practice until your fingers bleed. Then go to a session and sit there and only play when you know the tune.

Be prepared to accept your second class status with a determined and yet humble demeanor. Be strong, be polite, be respectful, and be encourage -- because times do change.

Good luck
Greg

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Greg

Re: Lead guitar

As a longtime guitar player, equating the terms "fingerstyle" and "lead" guitar playing is pretty confusing... Especially in Irish traditional music because the melodies are the root of the music and harmonic and chordal additions to it are pretty recent.

I used to play fingerstyle almost exclusively (not Irish music), and I loved it, but then I didn't play at all for a while and when I started again, I was more interested in chordal movement and rhythms and harmony, so when I came to Irish traditional music ("ITM"), I found chordal and rhytmic accompaniment more interesting, so that's more of what I do now. I also got a bouzouki so that I could play when there's another guitar player, and so I can work out complementary parts with a guitarist.

First: fingerstyle.

It's great. There are a good number of tremendous guitarists who play Irish music fingerstyle, but they mainly do it solo or in ensembles no larger than trios, or just on recordings.

It's usually just very hard to hear fingerstyle guitar in a session. Often I've heard a guitarist start a tune or set in fingerstyle, and sometimes folks will wait a while and just listen before joining in, or if the session is energetic, folks will jump on in and the fingerstyle is either covered up or the guitarist changes styles to complement the boy of players.

Next, "lead"...
This is difficult for me because the term "lead guitar" doesn't much fit with any sort of acoustic folk music in my mind... It invokes, for me, an arranged form of popular music (in any number of genres and ethnicities)
which includes a specific period in which the melody is stated, paraphrased or improvised upon by a 'featured,' if you will, guitar soloist. OK, enough of that... <GG>

If lead guitar is taken to mean a guitar playing the melody of an Irish traditional music, that's fine too, with the same problem as above, it's tough to hear a single-note guitar line in ensembles of the usual ITM instruments that are larger than a trio. Guitarists who actually know and can accurately play ITM melodies are pretty well respected, in my experience, but the guitarists can find the session experience pretty frustrating, and often turn to mandolins or tenor banjos or fiddles to express the melodies in ways that are more prominent in a session.

But as said previously, it depends on the session. I have a friend who plays fingerstyle in his local session, and tho he used to beg everyone to play more softly so that he could hear himself (which, despite the good intentions of the other players is not always successful... <GG>), his playing is a lovely complement to the music.

In other sessions, I've heard less sensitive players just roll on, right over a fingerstyle guitarist...

But join in and have some fun!

Enjoy,

stv

http://cdbaby.com/Culchies

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by stv culchie

Re: Lead guitar

Yes by 'lead' guitar i mean playing the melody like fiddles and pipes etc. do rather then backing. I can play chords of course but i did learn classical and spanish guitar originally and when i play at home i really enjoy playing ITM on my guitar as single line melodies. I can play these very fast and with flourishes etc. but i could totally see that i could be easily drowned out. Maybe i should think about getting an instrument like a bouzouki or mandolin/octave mandola. How easy are they to trasistion to from guitar and will my guitar skills be of use?

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by velvet

Re: Lead guitar

Yah. Get a mandola. If yer used to playing melody lines then the transition should be pretty quick. The guitar will definitely be drowned out at a session unless you use a plectrum and bang pretty hard.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Farr

Re: Lead guitar

Greg: Wow! I've never experienced Guitar snobbery at a session here or in Ireland. Most sesh's I've been to welcome guitar wholeheartedly unless they are really untalented or there are more than one.

# Posted on October 29th 2006 by Farr

Re: Lead guitar

If you want to play melody, I'd suggest an octave mandola (generally called octave mandolin in the USA). They are tuned the same as a mandolin and fiddle, only an octave lower. You will find that the tuning is much better for Celtic tunes than a standard tuned guitar. If you are on a budget, look at the Ashbury Octave Mandola, manufactured by Saga and known in the USA under the Trinity College name among others. Its £289.00 at Hobgoblin and are quite good instruments for the price.

On the other hand, if you would rather focus on accompaniment and want to move beyond the guitar, look to the bouzouki, typically tuned GDAD. The Ashbury Irish Bouzouki is only £299.00.

# Posted on October 30th 2006 by Craymcla

Re: Lead guitar

I just got myself a small portable 2W amp to plug my classical guitar into (it has a piezoelectric bridge pickup). I haven't yet used it in a session, but I'm looking forward to seeing how many eyebrows are raised (with a bit of luck, none!). I just want to be able to hear myself play. I've done with trying to play a steel strung guitar with a plectrum - I've given it my best shot but it's not my style. And there are too many good (much better than me) chord-playing accompanists around. I just want join in playing tunes the way I'm used to doing it on an instrument I'm comfortable with. I'm hoping that if the amp gives the sound just enough lift that I can hear it and it blends with the overall sound, I shouldn't hit big objections. We'll see...

# Posted on October 30th 2006 by Lissagriffin

Re: Lead guitar

Velvet - Get a bouzouki or octave mandolin by all means. But I don't think you should abandon the guitar in for of another instrument. Whilst fingerpicking tunes on guitar may be drowned out in a big session, a couple of solo tunes on guitar would, in my opinion - and in the opinion of many others - be an interesting and welcome addition to any session. I can't see why anyone would object to your playing the melody all the time, so long as you are in time and in tune with everyone else. You will probably find that, as a guitarist, some will *expect * you to provide backing - but you are not obliged to do so if you are making a different contribution to the session.

Re amplification in sessions:

I have seen a few guitarists use amplification in sessions - usually in noisy pubs, with a lot of tune players and a lot of talking - just loud enough for the guitar to be heard. However, as a newcomer to the session scene, I think it would be highly inadviseable to turn up to a session with an amp - no matter how innocent your intentions, you are likely to be perceived as somebody seeking the limelight. Once you are a known face in a few sessions and have earned yourself some respect, if you feel it is necessary, you could ask some of the musicians if they think using an amp would be approriate - or perhaps wait until somebody suggests it to you.

Personally, I prefer the natural sound of an instrument. If a guitarist plays a solo, everyone should shut up and listen. When everyone else is playing, the guitarist is better off playing in a style appropriate to the level of volume. Of course, with good technique, the volume and tone got out of a guitar can be greatly increased, but I am in no position to preach about guitar, or any other, technique.

# Posted on October 30th 2006 by granama

Re: Lead guitar

An amp is inappropriate unless you’re on stage

If you’re playing the melody, there is no issue as
regards “second class” status
The one or less rule for guitar is also irrelevant if playing the
tune.

You won’t be heard (if that’s what’s important to you ) if it’s a
huge session, of course very few other instruments will be
either.



# Posted on October 31st 2006 by BegF

Re: Lead guitar

yeah i agree with stv culchie, when you actually play the TUNE on a guitar in a session you get loads of compliments which is initially gratifying..until it dawns on you it's the type of compliment given to the slow kid in the class for actually finishing the race (never mind that all the other runners are showered and changed by the time you cross the line).I am a professional guitarist who plays all sorts of styles and i love Trad so much, but got pig sick of listening to all these wonderful musicians playing this wonderful music, and sitting with them is some guy in drop D bashing away with his 4 chords and walking bass lines oblivious to the tune.Next tune same 4 chords and same bass lines. Why are guitarists so lazy? My view on the lack of volume (on an amplified acoustic guitar) is see it as an advantage-you can sit there and try picking up tunes by ear without making a fool of yourself!
This is my 1st post here - what a cool site!
www.hakanozel.com

# Posted on June 24th 2007 by hakanozel

Re: Lead guitar

I was a lead guitar player in a band called The Magic Mushrooms in the mid-60's. I stopped playing for 35 years until I got hooked on Celtic music a year ago. I was immediately drawn towards learning the melodies and playing along with the fiddles. Early on when I started a tune, people would say, you can't start, the fiddles have to start. But that is starting the change now, I am being asked to start songs, which is really nice. I am playing a 1984 Guild 12-string. I noticed that no one was playing 12-strings, so I decided to use mine for all the sessions I play. It's a beautiful sounding instrument with a very unique sound. I have not run into another guitar playing using a 12-string.

# Posted on November 27th 2007 by Celtic Guitar

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