Variations on this sort of theme have probably come up before, but here goes..........
My first (and only) "major" exposure to traditional Irish dance music was at a Ceili dance class. In our current location, we no longer have the opportunity to participate in Ceili dancing. We do get to see 1 - 3 concerts by traditional Irish, Scottish or some contemporary amalgam of "Celtic" music each year. While we enjoy these concerts, it always seems amusingly odd to me to experience traditional dance music in a concert venue, since I got used to hearing it in an informal dance class (or party) venue with people dancing, laughing, talking etc.
With that in mind as a platform from which to launch this discussion, how do you perceive / consider / experience the relationship between traditional Irish music and traditional Irish dance? (today, or historically, or philosophically, or ...?) Is your experience predominantly in sessions where there is no dancing? Or perhaps sessions with an occasional dancer? Do you play for dancers at all? Do dancers use live musicians much anymore? Do people go to parties (or pubs? or ??) where friends whimsically take turns playing music / singing / dancing as the moment leads them? Or are instrumental dance music, singing and dancing predominantly separate entities nowadays? And if so, why?
etc............(meaning, lots of directions this could take, practical, philosophical....)
Llig, thank you for the link to the other recent discussion. Obviously I haven't spent a lot of time here recently. In fact I have less time to spend here, and there are more discussions than in the past, naturally, I suppose, since there are more members than before.
Cecil asks:
Do you play for dancers at all? Do dancers use live musicians much anymore? Do people go to parties (or pubs? or ??) where friends whimsically take turns playing music / singing / dancing as the moment leads them? Or are instrumental dance music, singing and dancing predominantly separate entities nowadays? And if so, why?
A few days ago, some musician friends/acquaintances and I were asked to play at an "Irish night" party sponsored by a college student organization. Basically, we sat in a corner and had a session (albeit with microphones) while people socialized or occasionally listened to us.
At one point, a group of students who are part of an Irish stepdance troupe were asked to perform. They had brought pre-recorded music with them, which they were going to feed through the sound system, but instead asked us if we could play for them.
It wasn't completely smooth going: Their dance floor was well away from us and partly obstructed from our view, and that contributed to our difficulty at times in maintaining the tempo they wanted.
But, still, a couple of the dancers came up afterwards and said they liked being able to hoof to live music. From what I gleaned, in this and previous conversations with other dancers, they use CDs or iPods because it's easier than trying to find musicians -- and they're not especially well-connected to the music community, I suspect -- and because they are able to discern "cues" from the recordings.
From my perspective, playing for dancing is a valuable, and sometimes humbling experience. It's not so much the need for speed, but that you really have to toss out much of the "fancy" stuff in your playing and be a rhythm hound.
I've long been involved in morris dancing, where the musician-dancer dynamic is particularly critical because you have to find just the right tempo -- too fast and everyone's gasping by the last chorus; too slow and people are plodding throughout -- and some dances contain shifts in the music. It's often a fascinating tug of war: How much do the dancers lead the musician, and vice versa?
At our Ceilis there is a caller. That person usually helps us set the initial tempo. We musicians then try to maintain that tempo, while keeping an eye on the dancers for some feedback. Generally it works well.
I have definitely benefitted as a musician from exposure to ceilidhe and step dancing classes, even though I was a horrid step dancer (over six feet tall with a substantial diameter and clumsy to boot). I would love to play for dancers, and there are a number of venues that still use live music for ceilidhe dancing around here, so I have hopes of being able to do that someday.
I note that a lot of the dance schools and their students prefer canned music because it is more predictable. But I don't think that approach teaches the young dancers to feel the rhythm, which to my mind, is one of the main things dance should be about.
There's a lot of good points been made and i think the best thing to do is get out there and try playing for it , a lot of the traditional repetoire is strongly connected to dancing.
I play for scottish country dancing and highland dancing plus the occasional english country dance, there is a definite difference between a strathspey for country dancing and highland dancing but again it depends on which dance and only experience can help you get it right.
But certainly playing for dancing has i believe made me better at expressing the music and one venue we play at certainly never uses "canned music" and always has a live band every week.It has been known on occasion that a band can't make the gig in which case a few of us that live round the corner turn up at the last minute to provide the music.
But ever more increasingly it appears there is a lack of bands/ musicians prepared/able to play for dancing.
The Irish music I grew up with was always accompanied by dance. But it wasn't really ceili music. As a kid, we would go hear people like Tommy Peoples, and dance like crazy. There was also a lot of dancing in my house during sessions or house concerts. I kind of relate the two together.
Al, thank you for your comment about hoping to play for dancers someday. It serves as a reminder to me of all the things (especially musical things) that I have wanted to do "someday" for a long time that get put off continually due to the responsibilities that always seem to take priority.
Hmmm, that sounds like a whole 'nother thread.......
Thanks, all, for your comments, and for the link to the earlier thread. It is good to see that live music and dance continue to mix. Especially encouraging to me is amwl's experience.
National Public Radio did a story yesterday (Oct 24) on the revival -- or perhaps resurgence -- of the ceilidh among young people: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6376567
Sounded like fun. Maybe I should go to one <grin>.
Actually, the dancing sounded like much too much exertion for these weary bones. I'll just play in the band.
I heard that radio piece also, pretty cool!
We are famous!
All the liberal NPR listeners will be putting on their Birkinstocks, and steering their Volvos toward our ceilidhe club!
(well, maybe....)
I was a step dancer as a kid (hands down by the side type of dancing) , then in my teenage years went to ceilis in the Mansion House in Dublin. I learnt my dancing to my teacher lilting the tunes and there was always live music at the Ceilis. I think this is what nurtured my love of Irish music. When I hear Traditional music being played I always dance to it in my head but sadly find that nowadays it would be next to impossible to dance comfortably and enjoyably to the music being played at most sessions etc. A dancer needs music with a good strong and steady rhythm played at a nice pace (not too fast, not too slow).
Set dancing has to some extent done a lot of harm to the music as by and large set dancers demand that the music be fast and furious. Ceili dancing on the other hand is danced to a more steady rhythm.
Now in my later years I am occasionally moved to do a few steps of sean nos dancing but the music must be just right before I am tempted to step out. Again, it must be steady, rhythmic and above all enjoyable, you must be moved to dance and that is what the music is all about really I think, it moves you in some way, to play, to dance or even to listen.
Music & Dance
Music & Dance
Variations on this sort of theme have probably come up before, but here goes..........
My first (and only) "major" exposure to traditional Irish dance music was at a Ceili dance class. In our current location, we no longer have the opportunity to participate in Ceili dancing. We do get to see 1 - 3 concerts by traditional Irish, Scottish or some contemporary amalgam of "Celtic" music each year. While we enjoy these concerts, it always seems amusingly odd to me to experience traditional dance music in a concert venue, since I got used to hearing it in an informal dance class (or party) venue with people dancing, laughing, talking etc.
With that in mind as a platform from which to launch this discussion, how do you perceive / consider / experience the relationship between traditional Irish music and traditional Irish dance? (today, or historically, or philosophically, or ...?) Is your experience predominantly in sessions where there is no dancing? Or perhaps sessions with an occasional dancer? Do you play for dancers at all? Do dancers use live musicians much anymore? Do people go to parties (or pubs? or ??) where friends whimsically take turns playing music / singing / dancing as the moment leads them? Or are instrumental dance music, singing and dancing predominantly separate entities nowadays? And if so, why?
etc............(meaning, lots of directions this could take, practical, philosophical....)
Thanks for your thoughts.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Music & Dance
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11076/
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Music & Dance
Llig, thank you for the link to the other recent discussion. Obviously I haven't spent a lot of time here recently. In fact I have less time to spend here, and there are more discussions than in the past, naturally, I suppose, since there are more members than before.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Music & Dance
Cecil asks:
Do you play for dancers at all? Do dancers use live musicians much anymore? Do people go to parties (or pubs? or ??) where friends whimsically take turns playing music / singing / dancing as the moment leads them? Or are instrumental dance music, singing and dancing predominantly separate entities nowadays? And if so, why?
A few days ago, some musician friends/acquaintances and I were asked to play at an "Irish night" party sponsored by a college student organization. Basically, we sat in a corner and had a session (albeit with microphones) while people socialized or occasionally listened to us.
At one point, a group of students who are part of an Irish stepdance troupe were asked to perform. They had brought pre-recorded music with them, which they were going to feed through the sound system, but instead asked us if we could play for them.
It wasn't completely smooth going: Their dance floor was well away from us and partly obstructed from our view, and that contributed to our difficulty at times in maintaining the tempo they wanted.
But, still, a couple of the dancers came up afterwards and said they liked being able to hoof to live music. From what I gleaned, in this and previous conversations with other dancers, they use CDs or iPods because it's easier than trying to find musicians -- and they're not especially well-connected to the music community, I suspect -- and because they are able to discern "cues" from the recordings.
From my perspective, playing for dancing is a valuable, and sometimes humbling experience. It's not so much the need for speed, but that you really have to toss out much of the "fancy" stuff in your playing and be a rhythm hound.
I've long been involved in morris dancing, where the musician-dancer dynamic is particularly critical because you have to find just the right tempo -- too fast and everyone's gasping by the last chorus; too slow and people are plodding throughout -- and some dances contain shifts in the music. It's often a fascinating tug of war: How much do the dancers lead the musician, and vice versa?
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by sts
Re: Music & Dance
At our Ceilis there is a caller. That person usually helps us set the initial tempo. We musicians then try to maintain that tempo, while keeping an eye on the dancers for some feedback. Generally it works well.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by curamach
Re: Music & Dance
I have definitely benefitted as a musician from exposure to ceilidhe and step dancing classes, even though I was a horrid step dancer (over six feet tall with a substantial diameter and clumsy to boot). I would love to play for dancers, and there are a number of venues that still use live music for ceilidhe dancing around here, so I have hopes of being able to do that someday.
I note that a lot of the dance schools and their students prefer canned music because it is more predictable. But I don't think that approach teaches the young dancers to feel the rhythm, which to my mind, is one of the main things dance should be about.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Dance
Playing for dancing is an interaction between the dancer(s) and the musician(s). Dancing to canned music is karioki. Or would be if I could spell it.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Music & Dance
There's a lot of good points been made and i think the best thing to do is get out there and try playing for it , a lot of the traditional repetoire is strongly connected to dancing.
I play for scottish country dancing and highland dancing plus the occasional english country dance, there is a definite difference between a strathspey for country dancing and highland dancing but again it depends on which dance and only experience can help you get it right.
But certainly playing for dancing has i believe made me better at expressing the music and one venue we play at certainly never uses "canned music" and always has a live band every week.It has been known on occasion that a band can't make the gig in which case a few of us that live round the corner turn up at the last minute to provide the music.
But ever more increasingly it appears there is a lack of bands/ musicians prepared/able to play for dancing.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by iain beag
Re: Music & Dance
The Irish music I grew up with was always accompanied by dance. But it wasn't really ceili music. As a kid, we would go hear people like Tommy Peoples, and dance like crazy. There was also a lot of dancing in my house during sessions or house concerts. I kind of relate the two together.
# Posted on October 25th 2006 by m
Re: Music & Dance
Al, thank you for your comment about hoping to play for dancers someday. It serves as a reminder to me of all the things (especially musical things) that I have wanted to do "someday" for a long time that get put off continually due to the responsibilities that always seem to take priority.
Hmmm, that sounds like a whole 'nother thread.......
Thanks, all, for your comments, and for the link to the earlier thread. It is good to see that live music and dance continue to mix. Especially encouraging to me is amwl's experience.
# Posted on October 25th 2006 by ceciltguitar
Re: Music & Dance
National Public Radio did a story yesterday (Oct 24) on the revival -- or perhaps resurgence -- of the ceilidh among young people:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6376567
Sounded like fun. Maybe I should go to one <grin>.
Actually, the dancing sounded like much too much exertion for these weary bones. I'll just play in the band.
# Posted on October 25th 2006 by Tracie
Re: Music & Dance
I heard that radio piece also, pretty cool!
We are famous!
All the liberal NPR listeners will be putting on their Birkinstocks, and steering their Volvos toward our ceilidhe club!
(well, maybe....)
# Posted on October 25th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Music & Dance
I was a step dancer as a kid (hands down by the side type of dancing) , then in my teenage years went to ceilis in the Mansion House in Dublin. I learnt my dancing to my teacher lilting the tunes and there was always live music at the Ceilis. I think this is what nurtured my love of Irish music. When I hear Traditional music being played I always dance to it in my head but sadly find that nowadays it would be next to impossible to dance comfortably and enjoyably to the music being played at most sessions etc. A dancer needs music with a good strong and steady rhythm played at a nice pace (not too fast, not too slow).
Set dancing has to some extent done a lot of harm to the music as by and large set dancers demand that the music be fast and furious. Ceili dancing on the other hand is danced to a more steady rhythm.
Now in my later years I am occasionally moved to do a few steps of sean nos dancing but the music must be just right before I am tempted to step out. Again, it must be steady, rhythmic and above all enjoyable, you must be moved to dance and that is what the music is all about really I think, it moves you in some way, to play, to dance or even to listen.
# Posted on October 26th 2006 by MollyB
Re: Music & Dance
This is a good topic, it is interesting to hear how people relate the two. Me? I just dance when I hear music.
# Posted on October 27th 2006 by m