I find if you listen to a cd and strum along to a jig you'll pick up the rhythm easier. For example, find a jig on a cd thats in the key of D and strum along on the D string only. Say to yourself 'rashers and sausages' and this is the rhythm that you need. 123 456. du du du du du du. Rashers and sausages. It works to say it out loud. Sounds quite childish but works!!
You should learn to play the Bodhran first Matilda, then the rhythms & direction changes for the Plectrum just come naturally, for Tenor Banjo &/or Mandolin.
There is no "set" way of doing thing... but when I was going through the same dilemma, one of my teachers told me: "Most of the great players pick it DUD DUD, so learn what you want from that..."
The keyword there is "Most". John Carty, for instance, doesn't pick a particular pattern, he seems to pick whatever direction he wants on any given stroke to get the rhythmic sound he wants. But he grew up around the music and has been playing it for several decades. For those of us that weren't so lucky, I find the DUD DUD pattern gives you the best shot at making it sound Irish.
The jig rhythm is not even. The first note is longer than the other two, however, the "lift" comes mostly from a bit of emphasis on the third stroke. That stroke will be a bit stronger if it is picked down.
(Actually, I do know of another player who picks DDU DDU to get that lift, but that's not something I would recommend.)
It IS more difficult to play fast doing DUD DUD, and it may feel strange for a while, but practice it until it becomes natural. Then you'll never have to worry about it again, and your jigs will all sound great!
Yes it has been discussed many times and there is never a definitive answer - so theres your answer - there isnt one!! Ive never really had any lessons so my picking pattern is the one which just fell into place by it's self i.e. DUDUDU. If you want to emphasize the fourth note i find its just as easy to put a bit more umph into it with the pick moving upwards. The benefits of playing with that picking pattern is that you can put triplets in anywhere you want irrespective of which direction the pick is going. I havent analysed it but that must be a benefit? Im only guessing here but if you play every jig with the same picking pattern to a achieve a so called irish sound are you not also creating that chugga chugga sound too which is a bit predictable?
I did used to pick jigs DUD UDU as you suggest, but I found it too difficult to get a proper rhythm with the different note lengths and emphasis.
The problem is that you get used to your reciprocal motion playing reels that way, it is difficult to make a jig sound right with the same picking motion
Note: I didn't say "impossible". But DUD DUD makes it much easier to play the actual rhythm (and somewhat harder to play the notes). Does that make sense?
IMHO the "predictable, chugga chugga" sound is more likely to come from a jig that is picked too evenly because the player is picking DUD UDU.
I will also say that I don't strictly pick DUD DUD, there are certainly parts of a tune where the rhythm combined with the melody will call for something a bit different, so it's good to be flexible. But if you get comfortable with DUD DUD, it will be what you automatically pick (until you feel the need to do something different).
As far as triplets go, it is somewhat handy to be able to pick a triplet starting on an up-stroke. But with jigs, DUD DUD works well, because both common jig triplets can start on a down-stroke, which is generally easier. (Front side triplets - "diddly dum", and back side triplets - "dum diddly").
Gosh - doesnt it sound difficult when you start thinking about what exactly your doing? Tell me rev, is it legal to perform "backside triplets" in public? Seems that men of the cloth get up to all sorts these days!!
Also, I dont think it is generally easier to perform triplets on the downstroke. If you can do them on the up-stroke, well , you can do them on the up-stroke. Its just a bit of practice and they both become as easy as each other and very handy to have up your sleeve too.
AT LAST, acknowledgements that you don't need a "method"! I have no idea whether I pick up or down, or when.
Ptarmigan's advice, as always, is helpful and sound; except I don't think it is necessary to learn the bodhran in order to play the rhythm. (Shhh, don't wake Michael!) If you can keep the rhythm on your lap or on a table, you should be able to apply it with a plectrum.
Newty, the thing is to get comfortable enough with the picking pattern that you don't *have* to think about it. But it's not as simple as just saying, "Don't think about it; just do what comes natural". We don't normally think about walking either (unless we've had a few too many pints) but at some point you still had to learn how to put one foot in front of the other.
I have never really thought about picking patterns. I do know that I use DUD UDU and to me it sounds fine. As Newty said one just needs a little more umph in the upstroke.
I already play the rhythms, the bodhran when I was taught was DUD UDU for jigs, but I feel that for now, if I can get DUD DUD this will give me a better feel for the sound.
Basically, you have all confirmed what I thought, and that is that there is no one way to do this, just as many ways as there are players ! Well back my my sore fingers !
I have never concentrated on my picking pattern on the banjo, and somehow it all seems to sound OK! Some phrases lend themselves well to DUD DUD, especially if you are crossing strings, and you can even get some DDU DUD in for good measure. When I am playing all six notes on one string, DUD UDU is the most natural motion. Just be aware of where the emphasis falls. With time and practice, any competent picker can make an upstroke sound just as loud and defined as a downstroke. Just play where your fingers take ya!
So which pattern is most likely to lead to repetitive stress injury or carpal tunnel syndrome? I had a bit of an ache in my right wrist for a couple of days and got to wondering whether fast DUD DUD's were responsible.
I would like to echo those who said "get comfortable with variety." And learn to relax and start slowly. That way, eventually, your musical expression will fall somewhere between what the music dictates and what you want to say. For everything else, there's Advil.
I would start with DUD DUD for practice and exercise purposes, but as stated above, the paths to enlightenment are as numerous as those who seek it.....
I should also say that I might practice playing a tune one way where my chosen picking pattern works perfectly and I insert triplets et al where I feel it's appropriate. However, when playing with other people and where they are leading the tune...eg a slightly different rhythm or if they take short cuts(as some players do), this might not work. However, the same issue would apply with bowing in that I'd also have to adapt.
Reverend Pete has pretty well covered my own current thinking on jig picking (or is it “pig jicking”?) and grego brings up an interesting question (“...which pattern is most likely to lead to repetitive stress injury …”)
Having suffered through a nasty stress injury, I try to be aware of these things. My feeling is that it depends partly on how the arm is involved in the motion. If the motion is balanced between the wrist and arm (and fingers, even), then there’s less stress concentrated in the wrist.
I think what I’m saying is that there’s a way to involve the arm so that the actual pattern matters a lot less. That double-down in DUD DUD is probably more stressful than DUD UDU, especially if the wrist is already doing all of the motion. But when I’m able to get the right balance between arm and wrist, I feel a *lot* less stress in the wrist, regardless of the picking pattern.
I think very little about pick direction and let it just happen. I remember being with a guy who taught Scottish folk music on guitar and he taught DUD DUD. When I played along, he said I sounded OK but neither of us could work out what I was doing (so clearly it wasn't a simple DUD UDU).
It's just never bothered me until I stop to try and think about it.
What I will do, if I can't get a tune, is to sing 'the diddlies' (in my head only!). So, say we had an imaginarey 6/8 tune, it might go summat like this:
Diddly diddly | dee di dee di | dee di diddly | diddle dee di
I find that my hand just does what's necessary to match what's in my brain so long as I DON'T analyse it.
I'm a beginner, and I started DUD UDU, (that's what the book I bought recommended), but a couple of weeks ago I attended a workshop with Roger Landes and he strongly recommended to do the "DUD DUD", I've transitioned to it and I like the sound of the jigs better, plus it's easier to do the triplets too...
Jigs and picking directions
Jigs and picking directions
I'm sure this has probably been discussed, but I'm having a big struggle with jigs on the tenor banjo.
I know the emphasis is on 1 and 4 but is it better to go :
DUD DUD or
DUD UDU
Or does it just depend on the tune ?
I just can't get it to flow whatever I do, but have no problem with polkas or reels...
Any advice gratefully received !
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by matildamarmotte
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Try different things, I like D D UDU
leave an empty beat on 2
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by anastasiadesroches
Re: Jigs and picking directions
its all in the bow contact me at :
micky-lynch@hotmail.com
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by miclyn
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I find if you listen to a cd and strum along to a jig you'll pick up the rhythm easier. For example, find a jig on a cd thats in the key of D and strum along on the D string only. Say to yourself 'rashers and sausages' and this is the rhythm that you need. 123 456. du du du du du du. Rashers and sausages. It works to say it out loud. Sounds quite childish but works!!
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by dollyparton#1
Re: Jigs and picking directions
You should learn to play the Bodhran first Matilda, then the rhythms & direction changes for the Plectrum just come naturally, for Tenor Banjo &/or Mandolin.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Jigs and picking directions
There is no "set" way of doing thing... but when I was going through the same dilemma, one of my teachers told me: "Most of the great players pick it DUD DUD, so learn what you want from that..."
The keyword there is "Most". John Carty, for instance, doesn't pick a particular pattern, he seems to pick whatever direction he wants on any given stroke to get the rhythmic sound he wants. But he grew up around the music and has been playing it for several decades. For those of us that weren't so lucky, I find the DUD DUD pattern gives you the best shot at making it sound Irish.
The jig rhythm is not even. The first note is longer than the other two, however, the "lift" comes mostly from a bit of emphasis on the third stroke. That stroke will be a bit stronger if it is picked down.
(Actually, I do know of another player who picks DDU DDU to get that lift, but that's not something I would recommend.)
It IS more difficult to play fast doing DUD DUD, and it may feel strange for a while, but practice it until it becomes natural. Then you'll never have to worry about it again, and your jigs will all sound great!
Good luck
Pete
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Reverend
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Yes it has been discussed many times and there is never a definitive answer - so theres your answer - there isnt one!! Ive never really had any lessons so my picking pattern is the one which just fell into place by it's self i.e. DUDUDU. If you want to emphasize the fourth note i find its just as easy to put a bit more umph into it with the pick moving upwards. The benefits of playing with that picking pattern is that you can put triplets in anywhere you want irrespective of which direction the pick is going. I havent analysed it but that must be a benefit? Im only guessing here but if you play every jig with the same picking pattern to a achieve a so called irish sound are you not also creating that chugga chugga sound too which is a bit predictable?
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Newty
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I did used to pick jigs DUD UDU as you suggest, but I found it too difficult to get a proper rhythm with the different note lengths and emphasis.
The problem is that you get used to your reciprocal motion playing reels that way, it is difficult to make a jig sound right with the same picking motion
Note: I didn't say "impossible". But DUD DUD makes it much easier to play the actual rhythm (and somewhat harder to play the notes). Does that make sense?
IMHO the "predictable, chugga chugga" sound is more likely to come from a jig that is picked too evenly because the player is picking DUD UDU.
I will also say that I don't strictly pick DUD DUD, there are certainly parts of a tune where the rhythm combined with the melody will call for something a bit different, so it's good to be flexible. But if you get comfortable with DUD DUD, it will be what you automatically pick (until you feel the need to do something different).
As far as triplets go, it is somewhat handy to be able to pick a triplet starting on an up-stroke. But with jigs, DUD DUD works well, because both common jig triplets can start on a down-stroke, which is generally easier. (Front side triplets - "diddly dum", and back side triplets - "dum diddly").
Pete
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Reverend
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Gosh - doesnt it sound difficult when you start thinking about what exactly your doing? Tell me rev, is it legal to perform "backside triplets" in public? Seems that men of the cloth get up to all sorts these days!!
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Newty
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Also, I dont think it is generally easier to perform triplets on the downstroke. If you can do them on the up-stroke, well , you can do them on the up-stroke. Its just a bit of practice and they both become as easy as each other and very handy to have up your sleeve too.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Newty
Re: Jigs and picking directions
AT LAST, acknowledgements that you don't need a "method"! I have no idea whether I pick up or down, or when.
Ptarmigan's advice, as always, is helpful and sound; except I don't think it is necessary to learn the bodhran in order to play the rhythm. (Shhh, don't wake Michael!) If you can keep the rhythm on your lap or on a table, you should be able to apply it with a plectrum.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by oldstrings
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Newty, the thing is to get comfortable enough with the picking pattern that you don't *have* to think about it. But it's not as simple as just saying, "Don't think about it; just do what comes natural". We don't normally think about walking either (unless we've had a few too many pints) but at some point you still had to learn how to put one foot in front of the other.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Craymcla
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I have never really thought about picking patterns. I do know that I use DUD UDU and to me it sounds fine. As Newty said one just needs a little more umph in the upstroke.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Thanks everyone for replying !
I already play the rhythms, the bodhran when I was taught was DUD UDU for jigs, but I feel that for now, if I can get DUD DUD this will give me a better feel for the sound.
Basically, you have all confirmed what I thought, and that is that there is no one way to do this, just as many ways as there are players ! Well back my my sore fingers !
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by matildamarmotte
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I have never concentrated on my picking pattern on the banjo, and somehow it all seems to sound OK! Some phrases lend themselves well to DUD DUD, especially if you are crossing strings, and you can even get some DDU DUD in for good measure. When I am playing all six notes on one string, DUD UDU is the most natural motion. Just be aware of where the emphasis falls. With time and practice, any competent picker can make an upstroke sound just as loud and defined as a downstroke. Just play where your fingers take ya!
# Posted on October 23rd 2006 by IrishJim
Re: Jigs and picking directions
So which pattern is most likely to lead to repetitive stress injury or carpal tunnel syndrome? I had a bit of an ache in my right wrist for a couple of days and got to wondering whether fast DUD DUD's were responsible.
Too late for me to change, anyway.
# Posted on October 23rd 2006 by grego
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I would like to echo those who said "get comfortable with variety." And learn to relax and start slowly. That way, eventually, your musical expression will fall somewhere between what the music dictates and what you want to say. For everything else, there's Advil.
# Posted on October 23rd 2006 by BarryM
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I think slip jigs are better played DUD DUD DUD. Otherwise, you'll end up with DUD UDU DUD, UDU DUD UDU.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by stephenseifert
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I would start with DUD DUD for practice and exercise purposes, but as stated above, the paths to enlightenment are as numerous as those who seek it.....
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Mostly, I just do what comes naturally. Certain tunes work better one way than another.
Usually, I soon know if I'm having a bit of trouble and will vary the picking pattern to suit.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I should also say that I might practice playing a tune one way where my chosen picking pattern works perfectly and I insert triplets et al where I feel it's appropriate. However, when playing with other people and where they are leading the tune...eg a slightly different rhythm or if they take short cuts(as some players do), this might not work. However, the same issue would apply with bowing in that I'd also have to adapt.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Sorry, I meant to say "practiSe". Oops.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Jigs and picking directions
Reverend Pete has pretty well covered my own current thinking on jig picking (or is it “pig jicking”?) and grego brings up an interesting question (“...which pattern is most likely to lead to repetitive stress injury …”)
Having suffered through a nasty stress injury, I try to be aware of these things. My feeling is that it depends partly on how the arm is involved in the motion. If the motion is balanced between the wrist and arm (and fingers, even), then there’s less stress concentrated in the wrist.
I think what I’m saying is that there’s a way to involve the arm so that the actual pattern matters a lot less. That double-down in DUD DUD is probably more stressful than DUD UDU, especially if the wrist is already doing all of the motion. But when I’m able to get the right balance between arm and wrist, I feel a *lot* less stress in the wrist, regardless of the picking pattern.
# Posted on October 24th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I think very little about pick direction and let it just happen. I remember being with a guy who taught Scottish folk music on guitar and he taught DUD DUD. When I played along, he said I sounded OK but neither of us could work out what I was doing (so clearly it wasn't a simple DUD UDU).
It's just never bothered me until I stop to try and think about it.
What I will do, if I can't get a tune, is to sing 'the diddlies' (in my head only!). So, say we had an imaginarey 6/8 tune, it might go summat like this:
Diddly diddly | dee di dee di | dee di diddly | diddle dee di
I find that my hand just does what's necessary to match what's in my brain so long as I DON'T analyse it.
So my only advice is 'use the force'.
# Posted on November 1st 2006 by JonB
Re: Jigs and picking directions
I'm a beginner, and I started DUD UDU, (that's what the book I bought recommended), but a couple of weeks ago I attended a workshop with Roger Landes and he strongly recommended to do the "DUD DUD", I've transitioned to it and I like the sound of the jigs better, plus it's easier to do the triplets too...
# Posted on November 8th 2006 by morenoa0922