I'm not sure if there's such a thing, but you'll get lots of help from nice fiddle players ( yes, some of them are nice! ). They'll tell you if you're covering up enough of their mistakes or not! Alternatively try some of the links on this page http://www.thesession.org/links/display.php/8
"advanced lessons in Irish trad tune accompaniment?" I don't get it. Where do you see yourself? Do you ou see yourself as being pretty good, though not a beginner, and you want someone to telll you are doing well, but could do better?
How helpful, Michael. How's your own accompaniment skill? Can you articulate your approach in such a fashion as to actually help someone who's trying to get better? Or is it just easier to play the egocentric curmudgeon?
christ.
zouk23: feel free to contact me through profile if you'd like some practical advice.
This page (if you look further down) has contacts for the Universities in Ireland that teach traditional music. If you contact University College, Dublin then hopefully someone can help you. No doubt one of the degree students will want the extra income or there may be some workshop offering classes that they may know about.
I guess Michael doesn't fall into the category of "nice fiddle player". Boy, I hope we all don't have that reputation (not that I'm a fiddle player yet, but I will be someday...)
".... "advanced lessons in Irish trad tune accompaniment?" I don't get it. Where do you see yourself? Do you see yourself as being pretty good, though not a beginner, and you want someone to tell you are doing well, but could do better?
Learn the bloody tunes!"
(llig leahcim)
Perhaps, I can be of assistance here... well, believe it or not there are actually people out there who appreciate a bit of help and human guidance independently from what skill level they are at unless of course they are as gifted as our Micheal
And I know it's a bit hard to understand when one is a self-proclaimed 'cynic' but the majority of those above mentioned people are not interested in ego flattery but they are sincere and genuine about wanting to learn...
... well, what do they say - quite often the conclusions and judgements we make tell us more about ourselves than those we are judging - a bit like a mirror reflection...
And on second thoughts, perhaps I'm misreading Micheal altogether, and he's actually trying to tell us there are no distinctions between different level players... ie there are no beginners, no intermediate or advanced level players... one pot... one stew... what a nice all-embracing view... mhm... but then can anyone tell me, why do I sound like a beginner when I listen to myself play?... mhm... oh, I've got it... I'm probably just self deluded and in fact I'm playing just like Frankie Kennedy... cool:D... time to pack in those beginner's flute lessons since I clearly don't need them;)
It depends on what you mean by "learn the tunes." I've heard great accompaniment from people that are familiar with the tunes but couldn't play them note for note. I also know players who took up melody instruments after being brilliant as an accompanist and they didn't suddenly become even better. I think you need to know what the tune is doing to properly back it up, but some tunes are predictable enough that you can back up quite nicely even on the fly. The bottom line is to understand the music well enough to be comfortable playing it without guessing or using a hit or miss approach.
I don't mind doing either . . playing the tune or strumming . . but I know which is the easier of the 2 , although now in the session I go to we have strummers coming out of our ears . . (earoils in Yorkshire), so I have no choice but to play the tune . . in't it wonderful to be gifted
Yes, Mark, backers can "noodle" but tune players shouldn't. A big part of backing is intuitive. It's best when you know the tune, but if you're familar enough with the genre you can back a majority of the tunes at a session with little problem. And if you're familiar enough with the genre you'll also know when you shouldn't play at all.
Strumming chords is easy if you do it a lot. But it's a hell of a lot easier not to disrupt a session playing the tune than strumming chords.
I'm in the middle of doing some home recording. I will say that the whole experience is a humbling one - realising how seldom I play a tune all the way through without fluffing some notes, how inconsistent my timing is etc. But, playing a tune is a relatively straightforward task - at least, to play it as well as I am likely to play it in a session. Trying to get down a half-decent bit of backing (that is to say, good enough that I can bear to listen back to it), however, is another kettle of fish. For me, it entails a vast amount of working out in advance and practising the moves - sometimes recording it in sections - just to get it right. I can't imagine doing it in 'real time' in a session.
So PB, what if you're a tunes player but you can pick up a tune on the fly after the 2nd or 3rd time through, like if it's similar to a tune you already know, or it's a simple tune - are you allowed to noodle then, like, intuitively?
Boy oh boy I do not think backers should noodle any more than melody players.... nothing worse than a backer fumbling to find the right key, that really upsets the rest of the gang. If I don't get it right out, I drop myself out real fast. It's just good manners
My practical advice two cents on the matter.... yes learn the tunes, but learn the ones that are customary to the sessions you attend... and the best way to do that, tape them or MP3 record them or whatever. Slow them down if need be. Learn their sets, what tunes they play in whatever order.
Start with one set or two on your recording. Really get into working at practicing it. You will feel more confident playing out the next time you go. Don't try to learn everything all at once and frustrate yourself. Go with one small gain after another.
Doing things home alone in this way too, also allows you to develop your own style. You don't have to sound like this or that person. You can experiment without people getting mad at you and cringing when you walk in.
Find one of the melody players who can identify a key for you if you are having trouble with it, have them say it after the tune as you record it. They may have useful info such as the tune is in D but starts on a G etc.
As far as telepathic buttons .... those could really come in handy for backers, LOL! Where can I get one? Please Phantom, I really want one!
PS... as for backing on the fly, true many tunes in the music have similar structure and you can get them even if you never heard them before, but I wouldn't call that noodling exactly if you hear the key and the way the notes fall after the first time through and just get it.
What I consider noodling is when someone hunts and pecks looking for the right chords, playing by trial and error. The best place to do that is home alone to a CD. You have to hunt and peck and do trial and lots of error....hopefully at home.... to learn to play in the first place. Just not out and ruining a session.
Agreed... actually... the whole noodling thing was basically just Mark taking the p*ss. However... backers do have the luxury of not having to know tunes note for note, but they still carry a lot of responsibility for the way the tune sounds. Whether you're playing the tune or backing it, one should understand what they're doing before sitting down and their instrument out of it's case.
True Phantom.... but I think the more you know the tune though, the better you do. You don't have to learn it note for note of course. The more you play it the easier it gets to know what's coming next is all. Also after lots of time doing it, you start to see the similarities in structures of the tunes, and can accomany on the fly to those you may have never heard before. And if one comes along that's way weird, well you just drop out for that one rather than mess up the melody player. If it's in the middle of a bunch of other tunes you do know, you can fade yourself out gracefully..... then come back in softly and build up the volume when they're back to ones you are more comfortable with.
It's memory really, or ingraining it all in your brain, you start to hear the structure in the differing keys, they feel different, it's not a thought process or analytical at least for me anyway. I can hear most key changes in a split second and it has nothing at all to do with perfect pitch, there is a definite structure there, the way the notes fall etc. It comes with doing this a lot and being obsessive about it....!
Practice cannot be stressed enough.... but it should be joyful practice. Find a CD you love or a session recording from your session and work with it, Practice along to your favorite ITM players in your home....experiment, there's no one there to laugh at you..... mostly try to develop your own style or your own twists and turns, not to impress anyone, but because it's fun.
Doing this in isolation will help so much, just in case you can't find advanced lessons, just take the basics and experiment with them. Get some good books for the basics, as in chord formations ...which it sounds like you've done already, and just play your heart out at home.... you'll know when you sound good on what and when you are ready to take your new sound out there in public.
I love playing fingerstyle tunes on guitar been doing it most of my life, but my heart is in backing this music.... sounds silly doesn't it? Backing is where I can go where my heart and the music tells me at the moment, like having wings, it's almost trancelike, is the only way to explain it, it's like a drug! There is a real art to backing, and you should eventually hit a stride and ease with it, but always realizing you could do a little better, so you take it and add to it and experiment, and it grows. You can do that with tunes too, to some extent, but you have more room in backing in my humble opinion.
Some people go into guitar thinking they can't play a melody instrument and guitar or zouk will be 'easy'. In many ways it's harder, you have no roadmap, printed notes, ABC or whatever. You can be told the chords in any given key, but what you do with them is at the heart of it, what makes an Alec Finn, or other great backers. Likely the same is true on tunes of course, but with backing there is just more room.... and many get lost when there is too much room to float in. Many just want a structure and a roadmap, but there isn't much beyond hitting the right chords and notes of a key. Then you wing it.
I just taught a workshop in dropped D tuning for backing to a bunch or formerly standard tuning players... all were converted, and I taught by ear and eye, not knowing a thing about music. I offered chord charts, and said basically the chords are the bones, what you add on can become anything you want as long as it doesn't fight the music. After a while you can throw the chord charts away and fly with it if you practice enough.
Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Anyone out there know of any place around Dublin where I could get advanced lessons in Irish trad tune accompaniment?
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by dwl
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
So, any alongsider lessons out there.
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by curlew
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
I'm not sure if there's such a thing, but you'll get lots of help from nice fiddle players ( yes, some of them are nice! ). They'll tell you if you're covering up enough of their mistakes or not! Alternatively try some of the links on this page http://www.thesession.org/links/display.php/8
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by Backer
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
"advanced lessons in Irish trad tune accompaniment?" I don't get it. Where do you see yourself? Do you ou see yourself as being pretty good, though not a beginner, and you want someone to telll you are doing well, but could do better?
Learn the bloody tunes
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by ...
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
"Learn the bloody tunes"
How helpful, Michael. How's your own accompaniment skill? Can you articulate your approach in such a fashion as to actually help someone who's trying to get better? Or is it just easier to play the egocentric curmudgeon?
christ.
zouk23: feel free to contact me through profile if you'd like some practical advice.
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by coyotebanjo
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
http://www.itma.ie/home/leaf4a.htm
This page (if you look further down) has contacts for the Universities in Ireland that teach traditional music. If you contact University College, Dublin then hopefully someone can help you. No doubt one of the degree students will want the extra income or there may be some workshop offering classes that they may know about.
Good luck
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
I guess Michael doesn't fall into the category of "nice fiddle player". Boy, I hope we all don't have that reputation (not that I'm a fiddle player yet, but I will be someday...)
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Maybe Mr. Gill should be locked in a room with only a bodhran and a guitar until he promises to be more civil.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Oh... and a shakey egg as well.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
".... "advanced lessons in Irish trad tune accompaniment?" I don't get it. Where do you see yourself? Do you see yourself as being pretty good, though not a beginner, and you want someone to tell you are doing well, but could do better?
... well, believe it or not there are actually people out there who appreciate a bit of help and human guidance independently from what skill level they are at unless of course they are as gifted as our Micheal
...
... mhm... but then can anyone tell me, why do I sound like a beginner when I listen to myself play?... mhm... oh, I've got it... I'm probably just self deluded and in fact I'm playing just like Frankie Kennedy... cool:D... time to pack in those beginner's flute lessons since I clearly don't need them;)
Learn the bloody tunes!"
(llig leahcim)
Perhaps, I can be of assistance here
And I know it's a bit hard to understand when one is a self-proclaimed 'cynic' but the majority of those above mentioned people are not interested in ego flattery but they are sincere and genuine about wanting to learn
... well, what do they say - quite often the conclusions and judgements we make tell us more about ourselves than those we are judging - a bit like a mirror reflection...
And on second thoughts, perhaps I'm misreading Micheal altogether, and he's actually trying to tell us there are no distinctions between different level players... ie there are no beginners, no intermediate or advanced level players... one pot... one stew... what a nice all-embracing view
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by vanessa
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Oh, just thought of something
...
?
Anyone heard of the saying: "Be kind to unkind people, they need it the most?"
So, how about a warm session.org group hug for our friend, Micheal
Who's with me?
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by vanessa
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
"Gentle Gill"
... oh, he does make us all feel so warm and fuzzy inside
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by vanessa
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
It depends on what you mean by "learn the tunes." I've heard great accompaniment from people that are familiar with the tunes but couldn't play them note for note. I also know players who took up melody instruments after being brilliant as an accompanist and they didn't suddenly become even better. I think you need to know what the tune is doing to properly back it up, but some tunes are predictable enough that you can back up quite nicely even on the fly. The bottom line is to understand the music well enough to be comfortable playing it without guessing or using a hit or miss approach.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
I don't mind doing either . . playing the tune or strumming . . but I know which is the easier of the 2
, although now in the session I go to we have strummers coming out of our ears . . (earoils in Yorkshire), so I have no choice but to play the tune . . in't it wonderful to be gifted 
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Justintime
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
PB: "some tunes are predictable enough that you can back up quite nicely even on the fly."
So guitarists are allowed to noodle but tune players aren't? That's hardly fair is it?
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Yes, Mark, backers can "noodle" but tune players shouldn't. A big part of backing is intuitive. It's best when you know the tune, but if you're familar enough with the genre you can back a majority of the tunes at a session with little problem. And if you're familiar enough with the genre you'll also know when you shouldn't play at all.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Stewpot: "I know which is the easier of the 2"
Which?
Strumming chords is easy if you do it a lot. But it's a hell of a lot easier not to disrupt a session playing the tune than strumming chords.
I'm in the middle of doing some home recording. I will say that the whole experience is a humbling one - realising how seldom I play a tune all the way through without fluffing some notes, how inconsistent my timing is etc. But, playing a tune is a relatively straightforward task - at least, to play it as well as I am likely to play it in a session. Trying to get down a half-decent bit of backing (that is to say, good enough that I can bear to listen back to it), however, is another kettle of fish. For me, it entails a vast amount of working out in advance and practising the moves - sometimes recording it in sections - just to get it right. I can't imagine doing it in 'real time' in a session.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
So PB, what if you're a tunes player but you can pick up a tune on the fly after the 2nd or 3rd time through, like if it's similar to a tune you already know, or it's a simple tune - are you allowed to noodle then, like, intuitively?
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
No sorry, actually, ignore that - I'm gonna get myself kicked off the board if I'm not careful here
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Dr. Dow
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
You can noodle, Mark, since you play such a superior and unlimited instrument. It has everything else, so I'm sure it has telepathic buttons as well.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Boy oh boy I do not think backers should noodle any more than melody players.... nothing worse than a backer fumbling to find the right key, that really upsets the rest of the gang. If I don't get it right out, I drop myself out real fast. It's just good manners
My practical advice two cents on the matter.... yes learn the tunes, but learn the ones that are customary to the sessions you attend... and the best way to do that, tape them or MP3 record them or whatever. Slow them down if need be. Learn their sets, what tunes they play in whatever order.
Start with one set or two on your recording. Really get into working at practicing it. You will feel more confident playing out the next time you go. Don't try to learn everything all at once and frustrate yourself. Go with one small gain after another.
Doing things home alone in this way too, also allows you to develop your own style. You don't have to sound like this or that person. You can experiment without people getting mad at you and cringing when you walk in.
Find one of the melody players who can identify a key for you if you are having trouble with it, have them say it after the tune as you record it. They may have useful info such as the tune is in D but starts on a G etc.
As far as telepathic buttons .... those could really come in handy for backers, LOL! Where can I get one? Please Phantom, I really want one!
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
PS... as for backing on the fly, true many tunes in the music have similar structure and you can get them even if you never heard them before, but I wouldn't call that noodling exactly if you hear the key and the way the notes fall after the first time through and just get it.
What I consider noodling is when someone hunts and pecks looking for the right chords, playing by trial and error. The best place to do that is home alone to a CD. You have to hunt and peck and do trial and lots of error....hopefully at home.... to learn to play in the first place. Just not out and ruining a session.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by irisnevins
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Agreed... actually... the whole noodling thing was basically just Mark taking the p*ss. However... backers do have the luxury of not having to know tunes note for note, but they still carry a lot of responsibility for the way the tune sounds. Whether you're playing the tune or backing it, one should understand what they're doing before sitting down and their instrument out of it's case.
# Posted on October 22nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
Zouk23 - I would stongly recommend you take Coyote up on his kind offer.
# Posted on October 23rd 2006 by BegF
Re: Accompaniment Lessons/Classes
True Phantom.... but I think the more you know the tune though, the better you do. You don't have to learn it note for note of course. The more you play it the easier it gets to know what's coming next is all. Also after lots of time doing it, you start to see the similarities in structures of the tunes, and can accomany on the fly to those you may have never heard before. And if one comes along that's way weird, well you just drop out for that one rather than mess up the melody player. If it's in the middle of a bunch of other tunes you do know, you can fade yourself out gracefully..... then come back in softly and build up the volume when they're back to ones you are more comfortable with.
It's memory really, or ingraining it all in your brain, you start to hear the structure in the differing keys, they feel different, it's not a thought process or analytical at least for me anyway. I can hear most key changes in a split second and it has nothing at all to do with perfect pitch, there is a definite structure there, the way the notes fall etc. It comes with doing this a lot and being obsessive about it....!
Practice cannot be stressed enough.... but it should be joyful practice. Find a CD you love or a session recording from your session and work with it, Practice along to your favorite ITM players in your home....experiment, there's no one there to laugh at you..... mostly try to develop your own style or your own twists and turns, not to impress anyone, but because it's fun.
Doing this in isolation will help so much, just in case you can't find advanced lessons, just take the basics and experiment with them. Get some good books for the basics, as in chord formations ...which it sounds like you've done already, and just play your heart out at home.... you'll know when you sound good on what and when you are ready to take your new sound out there in public.
I love playing fingerstyle tunes on guitar been doing it most of my life, but my heart is in backing this music.... sounds silly doesn't it? Backing is where I can go where my heart and the music tells me at the moment, like having wings, it's almost trancelike, is the only way to explain it, it's like a drug! There is a real art to backing, and you should eventually hit a stride and ease with it, but always realizing you could do a little better, so you take it and add to it and experiment, and it grows. You can do that with tunes too, to some extent, but you have more room in backing in my humble opinion.
Some people go into guitar thinking they can't play a melody instrument and guitar or zouk will be 'easy'. In many ways it's harder, you have no roadmap, printed notes, ABC or whatever. You can be told the chords in any given key, but what you do with them is at the heart of it, what makes an Alec Finn, or other great backers. Likely the same is true on tunes of course, but with backing there is just more room.... and many get lost when there is too much room to float in. Many just want a structure and a roadmap, but there isn't much beyond hitting the right chords and notes of a key. Then you wing it.
I just taught a workshop in dropped D tuning for backing to a bunch or formerly standard tuning players... all were converted, and I taught by ear and eye, not knowing a thing about music. I offered chord charts, and said basically the chords are the bones, what you add on can become anything you want as long as it doesn't fight the music. After a while you can throw the chord charts away and fly with it if you practice enough.
# Posted on October 23rd 2006 by irisnevins