The reason I did it was to play in a band with a Scottish piper.The bagpipes are tuned to B flat so in order to play along with him the guitarist had to capo on the first fret and play in A,but there were no fiddle capos so I had to carry two fiddles around ,one tuned standard and the other half a tone higher.
I'm sorry - i still don't see why you need a capo or a tuned up fiddle to play the fiddle in Eb. It's not exactly difficult. The fiddle can be played in any key without benefit of artificial aids or different tunings. Bb is a great key on the fiddle - that's why there are so many Bb hornpipes in the English tradition. Eb is no more difficult. Old fiddlers' tune books, from the 18th and 19th centuries, have lots of tunes in keys other than D and G. Forget the capo and learn to play the fiddle.
c.g. - You have a valid point - the fiddle *is* a chromatic instrument, like the guitar, mandolin, piano, clarinet etc, and it is posibble to learn to play in any key. But isn't it a bit much to expect fiddlers to transpose spontaneously - and to a key like Eb? As you say, Bb is a great key on the fiddle, and these English Bb hornpipes you refer to were probably composed on and for the fiddle by fiddlers. I don't think anyone is suggesting using a capo or retuning in order to play Bb or Eb fiddle tunes - it's just for when one finds oneself in the position of having to play familiar tunes in unfamiliar keys and not having had the opportunity to prepare.
I, for one, enjoy transposing tunes on the mandolin (my fiddle playing isn't up to it) in my own time, and I particularly like the flat keys - although, I have to say, I do find Eb awkard for the fingers.
Another point: The nice thing about keys like D, G and A on the fiddle, etc., apart from the relative ease of playing, is the opportunity to use open string 'drones'. If you were accompanying bagpipes in Bb, using Bb and Eb fingering, you'd hardly have a chance to let an open string ring - imagine the frustration of not being able to drone with the pipes.
Playing with pipers aside, a lot of tunes, particularly those from the uillean and highland piping repertoires, benefit from the ringing open strings. In Eb, the only open strings in the scale are the D and the G - the 3rd and the 7th - which would not necessarily complement the tunes well.
You try playing along with "The Athole Highlanders "in E flat.By tuning up half a tone you can get the A and e strings humming along with the drones on the pipes.A tune like "The Cameron Highlanders" would sound like a dog's breakfast in E flat.Not that a dog's breakfast makes a noise,but you get my meaning."The Jig Of Slurs" In E flat? It wouldn't work,would it?The flat tunes for the fiddle work because they were written to be played in flat keys,that's why they work.
Spoon and Dafydd make a valid point. Of course, good players can play the fiddle, mandolin, guitar or whatever in any key they choose. However, if they want to incorporate certain effects in their playing style eg drones etc, it is necessary to use keys or key positions(if you follow what I mean) which best facilitate this process. So, you'll see even the very guitarists use capos, on occasion.
A tin whistle player might also wish to use a different key of whistle for certain tunes too even although it might be possible to play the tune on a particular key of whistle.
I think most of us know that cg misses the point with the "forget the capo and learn to play the fiddle" comment.
Transposing tunes just because you can is not really that much of a valid skill in this music. A lot of the tunes are what they are because of where they fall under your fingers. I've played in Eb fingering with scottish pipes, but it's not really satisfactory. I find fiddle Bb fingering on the viola to get your Eb with the pipes more sympathetic. I also often play in fiddle Enat fingering on the viola to actually play in A, and that's a bit of a stretch.
But on the whole, I'm not a great fan of transposing tunes. Take that terrific Tommy People's tune Black Pat's as an example. You hear it mostly played in sessions in G, pipes and flute freindly. But play it on the fiddle in its original F and it really comes to life. It's being able to roll the top As when you are in F. If you are in G, you just can't get the same bite with a top B
Cole Porter could only play the piano in F sharp.He had a transposing piano made for him.There was a lever on it that he could turn and hear how the music sounded in other keys while still playing in F sharp.Nothing to do with the thread but it's part of life's rich tapestry.
I can't remember BegF. I've known that joke for so long.It might be one of his,it certainly sounds like him.I used to own a couple of his albums when I was a teenager,I may have got it from one of those.To quote Charles Seeger ,"All culture is plagiarism."
The reasons for retuning your fiddle to play with the pipes given above are all very valid. You do want the drones sounding. Another reason is simply that very few Highland Pipes are exactly in Bb. They are often somewhere between Bb and B and you try playing along to the pipes on your fiddle in those circumstances. Often a guitarist will need to use a capo on the first fret and retune their guitar - a complete pain in the a*se. God bless the Border Pipes (and any pipes that are in concert pitch).
There are plenty of excellent fiddle players I know who can play in any key you ask of them but they still use a retuned fiddle to play with the pipes.
One does occasionally run across people playing Eb flutes- My friend Dave has one that he sometimes brings to the session for variety.
He once suggested that I pick up a cheap(?) fiddle somewhere and keep it tuned a half step sharp. I'd rather carry around a matchstick than a second fiddle.
I just tried to write down ways to explain it but I'll just put down an example...
The kick ass album, "Kitty Lie Over" is in Bb. Why? Mick O'Brien plays a set of Bb pipes. So why should Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh relearn all his tunes using a Bb, Eb, everything else flat fingering when he can just tune down a step and a half?
THAT's why I tune up to Eb.
Well, actually that's a lie, I like to tune up to Eb 'cause I like the increased tension [like I said before].. But if did want learn a tune from say... Matt Molloy's solo album, then I would tune up to Eb 'cause for almost all the tracks, he plays an Eb flute.
FiddlinV: "..why should Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh relearn all his tunes using a Bb, Eb, everything else flat fingering when he can just tune :down a step and a half?"
Why shouldn't he? He's an extremely capable musician, and I'm sure it would be no bother for him - and it brings different tonal colouring to the tunes
*BUT*
on the other hand, why should he? Retuning the fiddle changes the character of the music in other ways, and is definitely not the same as just using different fingering. Several of us have already given good reasons for retuning when playing with pipes.
Dafydd: "You don't tune down to play in B flat,you tune up half a tone and play in A."
*OR* you tune down two tones (not a tone and a half, Fiddlin). Tuning down means you can use exactly the same fingering and have all the same open strings available to you. Tuning up a semitone and using A-fingering means either you play in the upper octave and have to change position to play the higher notes, or you play on the lower strings using 'E' fingering, making it more difficult to obtain the lower 'drones'
For playing with flat-pitched *uillean pipes*, most fiddlers would favour tuning *down*. For playing with Bb *Highland pipes*, most would opt for tuning *up*, since no tune goes higher than Bb (A on the E-string).
Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I just HAD TO SHARE this with everyone...
http://web.telia.com/~u86505074/capomuseum/Special/Fiddle/fiddlecapos.htm
How ingenious!
Now I can play in Eb without actually tuning up! [although the increased tension is really nice.]
Oh man.
cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Which of the two are you using?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Murph
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I haven't tried it yet.. THe Matchstick one seems easier since you can actually take it off without a hassle....
I shall try in the morning! I am so sleeping in! AH!
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
You can also take a shupp capo and turn it around!!!
regards Bgs57
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by bgs57
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Shubb capo.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Why do you need to tune up to play in Eb?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
The reason I did it was to play in a band with a Scottish piper.The bagpipes are tuned to B flat so in order to play along with him the guitarist had to capo on the first fret and play in A,but there were no fiddle capos so I had to carry two fiddles around ,one tuned standard and the other half a tone higher.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Might have been a better idea to find the tune in the different key without capo.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by BegF
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I'm sorry - i still don't see why you need a capo or a tuned up fiddle to play the fiddle in Eb. It's not exactly difficult. The fiddle can be played in any key without benefit of artificial aids or different tunings. Bb is a great key on the fiddle - that's why there are so many Bb hornpipes in the English tradition. Eb is no more difficult. Old fiddlers' tune books, from the 18th and 19th centuries, have lots of tunes in keys other than D and G. Forget the capo and learn to play the fiddle.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by c.g.
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
c.g. - You have a valid point - the fiddle *is* a chromatic instrument, like the guitar, mandolin, piano, clarinet etc, and it is posibble to learn to play in any key. But isn't it a bit much to expect fiddlers to transpose spontaneously - and to a key like Eb? As you say, Bb is a great key on the fiddle, and these English Bb hornpipes you refer to were probably composed on and for the fiddle by fiddlers. I don't think anyone is suggesting using a capo or retuning in order to play Bb or Eb fiddle tunes - it's just for when one finds oneself in the position of having to play familiar tunes in unfamiliar keys and not having had the opportunity to prepare.
I, for one, enjoy transposing tunes on the mandolin (my fiddle playing isn't up to it) in my own time, and I particularly like the flat keys - although, I have to say, I do find Eb awkard for the fingers.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Another point: The nice thing about keys like D, G and A on the fiddle, etc., apart from the relative ease of playing, is the opportunity to use open string 'drones'. If you were accompanying bagpipes in Bb, using Bb and Eb fingering, you'd hardly have a chance to let an open string ring - imagine the frustration of not being able to drone with the pipes.
Playing with pipers aside, a lot of tunes, particularly those from the uillean and highland piping repertoires, benefit from the ringing open strings. In Eb, the only open strings in the scale are the D and the G - the 3rd and the 7th - which would not necessarily complement the tunes well.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
You try playing along with "The Athole Highlanders "in E flat.By tuning up half a tone you can get the A and e strings humming along with the drones on the pipes.A tune like "The Cameron Highlanders" would sound like a dog's breakfast in E flat.Not that a dog's breakfast makes a noise,but you get my meaning."The Jig Of Slurs" In E flat? It wouldn't work,would it?The flat tunes for the fiddle work because they were written to be played in flat keys,that's why they work.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
If it is such a solecism to tune up half a tone,then why do the fiddlers in Scottish bands with the pipes in the line up all do it?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
That should have been "The Athole Highlanders" in B flat.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Beethoven composed one of his concertos in three flats because he had to move twice while he was writing it.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
For our colonial cousins on the other side of the Atlantic,flat is the English for appartment.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Groan!
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
...and 'apartment' is the American for 'appartement'.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Spoon and Dafydd make a valid point. Of course, good players can play the fiddle, mandolin, guitar or whatever in any key they choose. However, if they want to incorporate certain effects in their playing style eg drones etc, it is necessary to use keys or key positions(if you follow what I mean) which best facilitate this process. So, you'll see even the very guitarists use capos, on occasion.
A tin whistle player might also wish to use a different key of whistle for certain tunes too even although it might be possible to play the tune on a particular key of whistle.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Back for a while
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
ha ha, that's a good one dafydd
I think most of us know that cg misses the point with the "forget the capo and learn to play the fiddle" comment.
Transposing tunes just because you can is not really that much of a valid skill in this music. A lot of the tunes are what they are because of where they fall under your fingers. I've played in Eb fingering with scottish pipes, but it's not really satisfactory. I find fiddle Bb fingering on the viola to get your Eb with the pipes more sympathetic. I also often play in fiddle Enat fingering on the viola to actually play in A, and that's a bit of a stretch.
But on the whole, I'm not a great fan of transposing tunes. Take that terrific Tommy People's tune Black Pat's as an example. You hear it mostly played in sessions in G, pipes and flute freindly. But play it on the fiddle in its original F and it really comes to life. It's being able to roll the top As when you are in F. If you are in G, you just can't get the same bite with a top B
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Part of the point
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
It's not my fault that the Americans can't spell.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Cole Porter could only play the piano in F sharp.He had a transposing piano made for him.There was a lever on it that he could turn and hear how the music sounded in other keys while still playing in F sharp.Nothing to do with the thread but it's part of life's rich tapestry.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I'd heard that of Irving Berlin.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Victor Borge , Dafydd?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by BegF
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
No,it was Cole Porter;At least that what it said in a
biography I read and on various internet sites.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I meant the three flats joke - sounds like him anyway
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by BegF
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I can't remember BegF. I've known that joke for so long.It might be one of his,it certainly sounds like him.I used to own a couple of his albums when I was a teenager,I may have got it from one of those.To quote Charles Seeger ,"All culture is plagiarism."
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Some more VB:
"The difference between a violin and a viola is that a viola burns longer. "
"Laughter is the closest distance between two people. "
"Santa Claus has the right idea: visit people once a year”
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by BegF
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
The reasons for retuning your fiddle to play with the pipes given above are all very valid. You do want the drones sounding. Another reason is simply that very few Highland Pipes are exactly in Bb. They are often somewhere between Bb and B and you try playing along to the pipes on your fiddle in those circumstances. Often a guitarist will need to use a capo on the first fret and retune their guitar - a complete pain in the a*se. God bless the Border Pipes (and any pipes that are in concert pitch).
There are plenty of excellent fiddle players I know who can play in any key you ask of them but they still use a retuned fiddle to play with the pipes.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
One does occasionally run across people playing Eb flutes- My friend Dave has one that he sometimes brings to the session for variety.
He once suggested that I pick up a cheap(?) fiddle somewhere and keep it tuned a half step sharp. I'd rather carry around a matchstick than a second fiddle.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Murph
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I used capo with a wee banjo clamp to get in with Eb sets.
I don't know what is so revolutionary about it,, t'was common enough when I grew up ... just after WW2.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
I guess I should've been more specific...
I wasn't saying that I tune up to Eb to *cheat*.
I just tried to write down ways to explain it but I'll just put down an example...
The kick ass album, "Kitty Lie Over" is in Bb. Why? Mick O'Brien plays a set of Bb pipes. So why should Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh relearn all his tunes using a Bb, Eb, everything else flat fingering when he can just tune down a step and a half?
THAT's why I tune up to Eb.
Well, actually that's a lie, I like to tune up to Eb 'cause I like the increased tension [like I said before].. But if did want learn a tune from say... Matt Molloy's solo album, then I would tune up to Eb 'cause for almost all the tracks, he plays an Eb flute.
'Tis late. I like sleep. And Curry.
cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
You don't tune down to play in B flat,you tune up half a tone and play in A.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by dafydd
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
FiddlinV: "..why should Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh relearn all his tunes using a Bb, Eb, everything else flat fingering when he can just tune :down a step and a half?"
Why shouldn't he? He's an extremely capable musician, and I'm sure it would be no bother for him - and it brings different tonal colouring to the tunes
*BUT*
on the other hand, why should he? Retuning the fiddle changes the character of the music in other ways, and is definitely not the same as just using different fingering. Several of us have already given good reasons for retuning when playing with pipes.
Dafydd: "You don't tune down to play in B flat,you tune up half a tone and play in A."
*OR* you tune down two tones (not a tone and a half, Fiddlin). Tuning down means you can use exactly the same fingering and have all the same open strings available to you. Tuning up a semitone and using A-fingering means either you play in the upper octave and have to change position to play the higher notes, or you play on the lower strings using 'E' fingering, making it more difficult to obtain the lower 'drones'
For playing with flat-pitched *uillean pipes*, most fiddlers would favour tuning *down*. For playing with Bb *Highland pipes*, most would opt for tuning *up*, since no tune goes higher than Bb (A on the E-string).
FiddlinV: "I like sleep. And Curry."
Not at the same time, I hope.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Fiddle Capos anyone...??
Oh man, total brain fart-ness. Thanks Spoon =P
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on October 15th 2006 by fiddlinviolinin