I've got Zyex G/D/A and Pirastro Olive Gold on my fiddle. They were put on about 4 months ago and have played beautifully. However, in the last week or so, I get the weirdest of problems:
It occurs when (and only when) I slur on a downbow from B or c or d (on the A string) to open E: the B/c/d sounds ok but the e produces a 'delayed' sound! ie there is no bite (as if I was using a newly haired bow with no rosin), then the sound kicks in an instant later if bow pressure is applied (not always desirable).
It does not occur when slurring from the open A to open E.
Nor does it occur when playing the E string (not having slurred onto it)!
I don't think it's the bow, as using other bows has same effect.
I've also cleaned the strings with Pirastro cleaner.
Any pearls of wisdom out there? I guess I'll just chsnge the E-string but I am curious as to what is causing this problem!
Any chance you’re rotating the bow forwards/backwards on those slurs to the point where it’s wood on string? That might account for sound cutting out. Little weird things like that can creep into your style sometimes.
I have had this problem too. Your left hand first finger (if you are playing a B) may be just slightly interfering with the vibration of the E string, causing it to behave strangely. Something about the left finger, plus a particular combination of bow speed, pressure, and angle, seems to cause the problem. Changing one or more of these things may help.
There are, in my experience, 2 possible causes, and I wouldn't mind BETTING that, in this case, it's a little bit of both:
Firstly, Tim is right - however much you try not to, a very small part of your left hand will be interfering wih the E string, however slightly - sometimes this will produce a definite 'whistle' and sometimes a delayed note.
Secondly, Pirastro strings have never ever lasted me more than 2 months ... and the gold!!! I used a Pirastro gold string ONCE and once only. It was absolutely beautiful, but the sound lasted exactly ONE WEEK and then I had to change it because all the tone had gone. My strong advice would be - just don't use them. I'm amazed it's lasted this long ...
This may idiosyncratic--or just plain imaginary--but I was having a similar "blank E" problem, and it seemed to get better if I kept my right elbow tucked in close to my side. Even though it felt like I was not keeping the bow completely perpendicular (right-angle) to the strings. Maybe it's because the bridge is curved, not flat. Or maybe it was just my imagination. But it seemed to work, in my case.
Your G and D might last 4 months, but you should be replacing your E and A more often than that. My E string starts to wear away after a couple months, faster than the others.
Next time you need to change the E-string, try Thomastik's new Titanium Vision E (but be aware that there's always the possibility that it may work best in combination with the other strings in the set).
Btw, I've had no problems with the Pirastro Gold lasting for a year or more - but then I use a very low action, so perhaps that is a significant factor.
I’ve had – and complained about – that same problem, domnull. Exactly as you described it. Sometimes I bow from the A string to the E and there it is. Or isn’t, so to speak. Sometimes it delays and sometimes it just whistles. Someone here replied to my whining and indicated that it’s a well known phenomenon among violinists. I’ve even seen E strings (wound, I think) advertised as being “non-whistling”.
I’ve never pinned down the circumstances that favor the whistling, but when they converge, it’s hard to make it stop. I get it with the same fiddle, strings, rosin and bow that went for months without doing it. I think it’s a vibrational thing and not a finger-touching-the-string thing. It may be triggered by something in the bowing, but other factors have to come together at the same time to make the whistle. It could be something as subtle as a string length behind the bridge having changed slightly so that that piece of the string now vibrates sympathetically with a frequency component of the bow stroke, reinforcing it just enough to put the E string into a vibrational mode that favors a very high harmonic.
Bob, when your fiddle starts misbehaving again, try seeing if the delayed/silent/whistly E will happen when you are not fingering a note on the A string. In my experience, it only happens when my finger is on the A string and then I bown down into the open E string. When I go from an open A string to an open E string, the problem does not happen. So I conclude that the presence of the finger on the A string is part of the cause. I am curious if your (or anyone's) experience confirms this.
Check if the action near the nut is too high (a luthier would advise). If the action is too high you could be pressing the string down too far and the finger could spread and touch the E. Also, a high action could make strings wear out more quickly, especially the high tension ones like the E or metal-cored strings.
Hey, might be your string is digging too deep into your bridge. Has it got a piece of parchment or a some protection on your bridge?? Have a look: the string should only sit 1/3 on top of the little groove cut on the bridge. If more, take it to your local violin maker...
Tim, finger interference was one of the first things I considered and my recollection is that I tried going from open A to open E and still got the whistle, but I’ll make a point of verifying that at the next opportunity.
An interesting experiment would be for everybody to try to produce the whistle just by touching the E string (while bowing, of course). In case someone hasn’t heard it, it’s a very, very high pitched tone. Higher than any harmonic you would ever intentionally play. Nearly into the dog range.
I’m confident about this much: When it happens to me, the bow is travelling downward and is still in contact with the A string when it hits the E string. From a physics point of view, this presents lots of possibilities for subtle transfer of vibrational energy. Whatever the factors are – humidity, temperature, bow hair tension, finger interference, rosin accumulation, etc. – when they come together, I have a hard time working around the problem.
Okay, I did the experiment. I can get the E-string whistle/squawk with no fingers on the fingerboard, but it does seem to happen a bit more readily when I'm fingering the A string. Also, it's a lot more likely if I bow near the end of the fingerboard, which leads me to suspect that it has something to do with the harmonic node that's about at that position. If I move away from that position, the whistle goes away or at least gets a lot tamer.
So, I suspect that the combination of bowing at or near that harmonic node (1/4 of the distance from the bridge to the nut) and some other subtle and changeable factors can put the string into an unstable vibrational mode. Maybe part of it is the transfer of vibration from the A string, through the bow hair, to the E string.
This just happened to me tonight! Does this mean my fiddling is improving?!
And it wasn't just the E string either---it happened once on the A string as well. I do it on purpose, unfortunately, so I couldn't tell what was going on to make it happen. As a beginning fiddler, however, I've been tweaking a few things in particular lately, so I have a couple of theories:
1. It could be the string-vibration theory someone mentioned earlier. I've been paying a lot of attention to my intonation lately and it's possible I'm touching the string differently.
2. It could have to do with the angle of the bow hairs combined with the speed of the bow. I think the speed could be the key---I've been working on speeding up this particular tune and I wanted to accent the note on the E string, so I added a bit of speed to give it more bow, and that's when I noticed the problem. But only sometimes.
I doubt it's the string or the fiddle itself---I only bought the thing last month and it was professionally set up with Dominant strings.
I have a lesson tomorrow and will ask my teacher if he knows what it is.
Another possibility is too much rosin on the bow causing it to "glass" over the string to a certain extent. This could cause unwanted whistles or silences from the E-string in particular.
Over-rosining the bow will tend to blind the miscroscopic fibres on the hair that do the actual work of producing the sound, so it's always counter-productive to keep scrubbing too much the stuff onto the bow.
Correct rosining of a bow is a good example of "less is more".
An over-rosined bow won't cure itself through playing. The best, and most convenient, solution is to have it rehaired - and be careful with the rosin in future Three of four light swipes with the rosin cake I find is quite sufficient.
I've heard of bow hair being washed, but I've never tried it myself or talked to anyone who has, so I wouldn't like to comment one way or the other, except to say that a thoroughly "glassed" bow hair would probably require a lot of work to remove the rosin. I expect the topic has been discussed here.
Okay, here's what my teacher says---the weird sound comes from not playing "in the string", meaning that the bow is going across the string, but without enough pressure to make it vibrate properly, so you get the squeak instead (with the slur onto the E string, the plane of the bow doesn't pivot enough to make good contact with the string). He described it as the hand moving quicker than the bow, that the bow doesn't catch up to the movement of the hand (the bow hand, that is). Keeping an even pressure on each string as you go from note to note, even at speed, should solve the problem. Should be interesting to see if he's right!
I've experienced this slurring to the E-string problem very occasionally, but not on a regular enough basis to worry me, on one of my fiddles but not on the other. If it happens it will be on my old German fiddle, but I cannot replicate the effect on my modern Jay Haide. I'm using the same type of string on both instruments (Thomastik Vision Titanium), and whichever bow I use isn't a relevant factor.
I'm provisionally coming to the conclusion that it may be something to do with the profile of the bridge. My Jay Haide has a fairly flat profile bridge compared with that on my old fiddle. Consequently, it needs comparaitively little hand movement to guide the bow from one string to another on the Haide, whereas slightly more hand movement is needed on the old fiddle. This could be illustrating what Kennedy's teacher is talking about.
Interestingly, I never seem to hear classical violinists complaining about this E-string problem. I think that's because they are accustomed to avoiding the open E in their playing - particularly in orchestral playing - and will automatically play a fingered E on the A-string instead. Indeed, I've heard some conductors be quite insistent that they do this.
Some years ago, before I started playing the fiddle, I was at an orchestral workshop and the tutor (the leader of a pro string quartet) spent probably the best part of a half hour teaching the fiddle players, otherwise reasonably experienced and skilled, how to play an open E cleanly without scratches and squeaks.
E-string problem
E-string problem
I've got Zyex G/D/A and Pirastro Olive Gold on my fiddle. They were put on about 4 months ago and have played beautifully. However, in the last week or so, I get the weirdest of problems:
It occurs when (and only when) I slur on a downbow from B or c or d (on the A string) to open E: the B/c/d sounds ok but the e produces a 'delayed' sound! ie there is no bite (as if I was using a newly haired bow with no rosin), then the sound kicks in an instant later if bow pressure is applied (not always desirable).
It does not occur when slurring from the open A to open E.
Nor does it occur when playing the E string (not having slurred onto it)!
I don't think it's the bow, as using other bows has same effect.
I've also cleaned the strings with Pirastro cleaner.
Any pearls of wisdom out there? I guess I'll just chsnge the E-string but I am curious as to what is causing this problem!
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by domnull
Re: E-string problem
maybe you should have a set of strings and not mix and match?
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: E-string problem
Any chance you’re rotating the bow forwards/backwards on those slurs to the point where it’s wood on string? That might account for sound cutting out. Little weird things like that can creep into your style sometimes.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by fidkid
Re: E-string problem
I have had this problem too. Your left hand first finger (if you are playing a B) may be just slightly interfering with the vibration of the E string, causing it to behave strangely. Something about the left finger, plus a particular combination of bow speed, pressure, and angle, seems to cause the problem. Changing one or more of these things may help.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: E-string problem
There are, in my experience, 2 possible causes, and I wouldn't mind BETTING that, in this case, it's a little bit of both:
Firstly, Tim is right - however much you try not to, a very small part of your left hand will be interfering wih the E string, however slightly - sometimes this will produce a definite 'whistle' and sometimes a delayed note.
Secondly, Pirastro strings have never ever lasted me more than 2 months ... and the gold!!! I used a Pirastro gold string ONCE and once only. It was absolutely beautiful, but the sound lasted exactly ONE WEEK and then I had to change it because all the tone had gone. My strong advice would be - just don't use them. I'm amazed it's lasted this long ...
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by benhall.1
Re: E-string problem
This may idiosyncratic--or just plain imaginary--but I was having a similar "blank E" problem, and it seemed to get better if I kept my right elbow tucked in close to my side. Even though it felt like I was not keeping the bow completely perpendicular (right-angle) to the strings. Maybe it's because the bridge is curved, not flat. Or maybe it was just my imagination. But it seemed to work, in my case.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by mickray
Re: E-string problem
Very simple solution here: get a new E string
Your G and D might last 4 months, but you should be replacing your E and A more often than that. My E string starts to wear away after a couple months, faster than the others.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by mcdevincabe
Re: E-string problem
Next time you need to change the E-string, try Thomastik's new Titanium Vision E (but be aware that there's always the possibility that it may work best in combination with the other strings in the set).
Btw, I've had no problems with the Pirastro Gold lasting for a year or more - but then I use a very low action, so perhaps that is a significant factor.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: E-string problem
I’ve had – and complained about – that same problem, domnull. Exactly as you described it. Sometimes I bow from the A string to the E and there it is. Or isn’t, so to speak. Sometimes it delays and sometimes it just whistles. Someone here replied to my whining and indicated that it’s a well known phenomenon among violinists. I’ve even seen E strings (wound, I think) advertised as being “non-whistling”.
I’ve never pinned down the circumstances that favor the whistling, but when they converge, it’s hard to make it stop. I get it with the same fiddle, strings, rosin and bow that went for months without doing it. I think it’s a vibrational thing and not a finger-touching-the-string thing. It may be triggered by something in the bowing, but other factors have to come together at the same time to make the whistle. It could be something as subtle as a string length behind the bridge having changed slightly so that that piece of the string now vibrates sympathetically with a frequency component of the bow stroke, reinforcing it just enough to put the E string into a vibrational mode that favors a very high harmonic.
More likely, it’s the phase of the moon.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: E-string problem
Bob, when your fiddle starts misbehaving again, try seeing if the delayed/silent/whistly E will happen when you are not fingering a note on the A string. In my experience, it only happens when my finger is on the A string and then I bown down into the open E string. When I go from an open A string to an open E string, the problem does not happen. So I conclude that the presence of the finger on the A string is part of the cause. I am curious if your (or anyone's) experience confirms this.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: E-string problem
Check if the action near the nut is too high (a luthier would advise). If the action is too high you could be pressing the string down too far and the finger could spread and touch the E. Also, a high action could make strings wear out more quickly, especially the high tension ones like the E or metal-cored strings.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: E-string problem
Hey, might be your string is digging too deep into your bridge. Has it got a piece of parchment or a some protection on your bridge?? Have a look: the string should only sit 1/3 on top of the little groove cut on the bridge. If more, take it to your local violin maker...
# Posted on October 16th 2006 by Pepperbreizh
Re: E-string problem
Tim, finger interference was one of the first things I considered and my recollection is that I tried going from open A to open E and still got the whistle, but I’ll make a point of verifying that at the next opportunity.
An interesting experiment would be for everybody to try to produce the whistle just by touching the E string (while bowing, of course). In case someone hasn’t heard it, it’s a very, very high pitched tone. Higher than any harmonic you would ever intentionally play. Nearly into the dog range.
I’m confident about this much: When it happens to me, the bow is travelling downward and is still in contact with the A string when it hits the E string. From a physics point of view, this presents lots of possibilities for subtle transfer of vibrational energy. Whatever the factors are – humidity, temperature, bow hair tension, finger interference, rosin accumulation, etc. – when they come together, I have a hard time working around the problem.
# Posted on October 16th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: E-string problem
Okay, I did the experiment. I can get the E-string whistle/squawk with no fingers on the fingerboard, but it does seem to happen a bit more readily when I'm fingering the A string. Also, it's a lot more likely if I bow near the end of the fingerboard, which leads me to suspect that it has something to do with the harmonic node that's about at that position. If I move away from that position, the whistle goes away or at least gets a lot tamer.
So, I suspect that the combination of bowing at or near that harmonic node (1/4 of the distance from the bridge to the nut) and some other subtle and changeable factors can put the string into an unstable vibrational mode. Maybe part of it is the transfer of vibration from the A string, through the bow hair, to the E string.
Or not.
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: E-string problem
This just happened to me tonight! Does this mean my fiddling is improving?!
And it wasn't just the E string either---it happened once on the A string as well. I do it on purpose, unfortunately, so I couldn't tell what was going on to make it happen. As a beginning fiddler, however, I've been tweaking a few things in particular lately, so I have a couple of theories:
1. It could be the string-vibration theory someone mentioned earlier. I've been paying a lot of attention to my intonation lately and it's possible I'm touching the string differently.
2. It could have to do with the angle of the bow hairs combined with the speed of the bow. I think the speed could be the key---I've been working on speeding up this particular tune and I wanted to accent the note on the E string, so I added a bit of speed to give it more bow, and that's when I noticed the problem. But only sometimes.
I doubt it's the string or the fiddle itself---I only bought the thing last month and it was professionally set up with Dominant strings.
I have a lesson tomorrow and will ask my teacher if he knows what it is.
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: E-string problem
That should read "I *can't* do it on purpose"...
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: E-string problem
Another possibility is too much rosin on the bow causing it to "glass" over the string to a certain extent. This could cause unwanted whistles or silences from the E-string in particular.
Over-rosining the bow will tend to blind the miscroscopic fibres on the hair that do the actual work of producing the sound, so it's always counter-productive to keep scrubbing too much the stuff onto the bow.
Correct rosining of a bow is a good example of "less is more".
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: E-string problem
I thought about the rosin thing as well, only I was thinking maybe I didn't have enough because I hadn't rosined the bow in about four days.
It did feel kind of "glassy", though, the way an unrosined new bow feels. The bow wasn't making the string vibrate at that point.
Related question: if I have over-rosined my bow, will it correct itself through playing, or do I need to wash the bow hair?
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by kennedy
Re: E-string problem
An over-rosined bow won't cure itself through playing. The best, and most convenient, solution is to have it rehaired - and be careful with the rosin in future
Three of four light swipes with the rosin cake I find is quite sufficient.
I've heard of bow hair being washed, but I've never tried it myself or talked to anyone who has, so I wouldn't like to comment one way or the other, except to say that a thoroughly "glassed" bow hair would probably require a lot of work to remove the rosin. I expect the topic has been discussed here.
# Posted on October 18th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: E-string problem
Okay, here's what my teacher says---the weird sound comes from not playing "in the string", meaning that the bow is going across the string, but without enough pressure to make it vibrate properly, so you get the squeak instead (with the slur onto the E string, the plane of the bow doesn't pivot enough to make good contact with the string). He described it as the hand moving quicker than the bow, that the bow doesn't catch up to the movement of the hand (the bow hand, that is). Keeping an even pressure on each string as you go from note to note, even at speed, should solve the problem. Should be interesting to see if he's right!
# Posted on October 19th 2006 by kennedy
Re: E-string problem
I considered that explanation early on and, for me anyway, it’s not the cause.
# Posted on October 19th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: E-string problem
I've experienced this slurring to the E-string problem very occasionally, but not on a regular enough basis to worry me, on one of my fiddles but not on the other. If it happens it will be on my old German fiddle, but I cannot replicate the effect on my modern Jay Haide. I'm using the same type of string on both instruments (Thomastik Vision Titanium), and whichever bow I use isn't a relevant factor.
I'm provisionally coming to the conclusion that it may be something to do with the profile of the bridge. My Jay Haide has a fairly flat profile bridge compared with that on my old fiddle. Consequently, it needs comparaitively little hand movement to guide the bow from one string to another on the Haide, whereas slightly more hand movement is needed on the old fiddle. This could be illustrating what Kennedy's teacher is talking about.
Interestingly, I never seem to hear classical violinists complaining about this E-string problem. I think that's because they are accustomed to avoiding the open E in their playing - particularly in orchestral playing - and will automatically play a fingered E on the A-string instead. Indeed, I've heard some conductors be quite insistent that they do this.
Some years ago, before I started playing the fiddle, I was at an orchestral workshop and the tutor (the leader of a pro string quartet) spent probably the best part of a half hour teaching the fiddle players, otherwise reasonably experienced and skilled, how to play an open E cleanly without scratches and squeaks.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by lazyhound