G'day! I'm new on thesession.org and I thought to use it to rant, i'm sorry if its crazy long or if i offend anyone, i'm just ranting.
Woa! Okay. The music. It's amazing. I'm not talking about the Pogues or anything like that, I mean people like Tommy Peoples, Bobby Casey, Seamus Innes, Johnny Doherty, John Vesey, Willie Clancy, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh and all them fellas. Heck, I'll admit it, I even like a little bit of Lunasa and The Cheiftains from time to time. The passion in the music is breath-taking, there really is no way to describe it. I think the only ones who could really understand the passion i feel are those who play the music. It's absolutly mind numbing the effect it has on the player. In a session, if the true passion and love for the beauty of the music is there, skill level shouldn't make a difference because we're all there for the same reason... the love for the music and to be able to just forget all our worldly troubles for a few short minutes as we all connect on a tune that we play more then three times around because the vibe and connection is just so strong. That is what the music is about: getting together for some craic and playing your troubles away while sharing a deep passion and love with a variety of different older and younger fellas. It's beautiful isn't it? But what makes me sad is when people lose the idea behind the traditional music, try and make some money out of it or whatever and somehow the understanding of the craic within the music gets disfigured into something stressful and horrible and therefore loses the idea and passion. This is so sad. Let me just make it clear right now, it's not about the money (though it is nice to make some extra coin). HOWEVER! If you're able to do it and see the money or fame thing as a bonus then good for you! That's how it should be! I think you should be able to share your love for the music to everyone because it is just too outstanding to keep it hiding in a small pub somewhere, but please never let it become something bad in your life. Because it's not. And if it does becomes a negative thing for you, it's your own fault because you apprently have a very negative view on life. And that's all i have to say on that subject!
As for your 'rant', I think you'll find that you are preaching to the converted here, at least with the first half of your loooooooong paragragh!
As for your playing for money point.
Lots of different people here play for money, in many different ways, from those of us who get paid in cash or kind (often drink) at our weekly sessions, to those who tour the world, producing mighty CDs into the bargain & inspiring the rest of us, one way or another along the way.
Playing for cash isn't necessarily a bad thing, loads of folks here do it & I'm convinced that it does not spoil their enjoyment of the music.
I reckon the love & passion they have for playing can't be dampened by a little thing like money!
By the way, I think that's a strange way you have of ending your schpeel:
"And that's all i have to say on that subject!"???????
Remember this is, after all, a 'Discussion Forum, so shouldn't you be inviting debate & discussion with your thread & so be up 100% for any discussion, debate or argument which your thread might provoke?
So come out from behind that filing cabinet AT ONCE ... & 'face the music'!
Hey Ashley, welcome to the barnyard here, hope you enjoy it.
I know a number of people who do "make some money" out of playing The Music, i.e., as a part or full-time enterprise -- they tour and perform regularly and also have recordings for sale. But from what I've seen, they make a point of doing exactly the thing you praise: Just sit in a pub, or in a house party with some friends, and play for the fun of it all. It's not even a matter of "Well, I've got some time to kill today, so what the heck, I'll go out and play tunes" -- they believe doing this is intrinsically important to keeping their perspective on The Music and its role in their lives. They also find these informal sessions a way to meet new people, expand the circle of their musical acquaintances and thus broaden the scope of their overall musical experience.
And that to my mind is what makes them not only great performers and great musicians, but pretty excellent people in their own regard.
You say, "skill level shouldn't make a difference". I'm afraid it does.
Though I'm not talking mere technique of course. The "skill" I think of IS the "deep passion and love" that you refer to. But to share it successfully you have to have the combination of deep passion, love and knowledge, which should, in time, equate to deep understanding.
We all love the youngster who turns up with "passion and love for the beauty of the music" and give them all the time we can. But before we can really share it, knowledge is a pre requisite.
Ashley, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. There are always going to be people who are going to make money from music, and traditional music is just another faecet of music. And if it doesn't exist in a commercial marketplace than trad can only be spread by people converting people outside of the fold into it, which will result in an eventual death. Personally, I think that the fact that there is a level at which musicians can make enough money to live encourages the good musicians to try to become great. And it provides us with access to the greats which give us enjoyment and something to strive for.
That said, I don't approve of music for the purpose of making money, but considering how much work some of the great players put in throughout their lives I think it's fair enough they get to devote their life to it and have enough money to survive.
I'm just about to head off to the Eddie Duffy festival in Derrygonnelly for three and a bit days of wall to wall music in the twilight zone. We get put up and a few £££ towards the drinking fund but people travel from far and wide at their own expense just to get together to play the tunes and it's fecking marvellous!
I have no problem at all about someone getting filthy lucre for doing what they enjoy. Indeed many sessions in this part of the world now depend upon a core of paid musos to make them happen. It also means that some of the guys and gals can actually earn a crust from doing what they love.
And also no problem with young [or old] musos who are still just learning joining in - most of us are still going to be learning into our 80's ! But the skill is important - both temperamentally and style wise. If someone is an out of tune tube at the music then I would encourage them to go off and learn a few sets properly before joinging in. Maybe even take a class or workshop or two.
Actually one of the things about this music that I love is how those who *do* make a living at it are normal, approachable people who recognize the 'passion' in others. When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don;t really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. In a certain sense, skill level really is irrelevant to an appreciation of the music and the shared sense of purpose. These things unite the Lunasas of the world with the newbs who've been playing less than a year. It's precious, actually, and I hope ITM neverr loses it.
I share llig's reservation. Proper passion runs a bit deeper than the unbridled, sometimes unskilled enthusiasm that can occasionally and usually unwittingly blight an evening's music.
But hell, we all started the same way. You'll always get a few sour old gits like me around music. Welcome.
Welcome to the mustard board and to the musical journey Ashley. It’s great to see such an enthusiastic rant.
I figure though that if a musician is good enough to get paid for playing whether its from doing gigs or CD’s or whatever, that if you divide all the time spent developing their skill by practicing, listening and generally immersing themselves in Irish Music by the amount of income they get that the actual rate/hour pay is probably miniscule.
Irish Musicians ain’t doing it for the money IMO.
What *****ss me off is "pop" stars and wanabes with hardly any talent for music/playing, making vasts amount of money for doing very little. Many of em can't play anything at all . . but their young and good looking and prepared to sell their souls to the devil for stardom . .
This gets to the heart of why I am sold on this music. It seems that the people who are deeply into it understand that the best things in life aren't really free--it's just that you can't buy them with money.
A person who gets a lot of money for making shoddy music gets only money. But a person who studies and works hard gets improved skills and deeper understanding--things that can't be bought with money, but can only be earned by years of hard work.
On the other hand, I have no problem buying CDs, concert tickets, etc. to support people who have earned those skills and that knowledge. They have to eat too.
Ashley's list of favorite musicians contradicts the point he's trying to make--most of them played for money, even earning a living from the music. I would say that Tommy Peoples, Bobby Casey, and Seamus Ennis are proof enough that you can certainly "play for pay" and not sell your soul or sell out the music itself.
llig leahcim, you say that what I wrote is "Absolute balderdash."
Would you care to elaborate on this assessment and why I might be inclined to accept it? I don't have cast iron proof of my claim but I think I have some good reasons to believe as I do. But I am wondering if you even care or if you are just taking a p*ss. If that is all you are doing, I hope it's ever so enjoyable for you.
I agree with llig on that one - Tim - I just assumed at first that you were sh*t stirring. I've performed and played in many sessions and believe the opposite cranking it up at sessions ' is the only way to truly plumb its depths.'
Also - I wonder how many people here actually hang out with incredible musicians.....because I mustve missed the day that they were *all* (every single one of them)
"were normal, approachable people who recognize the 'passion' in others. When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don;t really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. In a certain sense, skill level really is irrelevant to an appreciation of the music and the shared sense of purpose. These things unite the Lunasas of the world with the newbs who've been playing less than a year. It's precious, actually, and I hope ITM neverr loses it."
Of course the instructors have to be nice to you when youve paid to go to a summer camp/workshop - but behind closed doors and stuff its a whole different ball game. Not talking about Lunasa in particular and not pointing fingers at all...but there are many 'Superstar' egos among the elite players....and if you say otherwise - it just proves my point that you dont really know them at all.
This is a two-edged blade...there are really passionate people out there who make a darned good living playing, singing, etc. any kind of music...there are the dolts who couldn't put two in-tune notes together and still get paid big dough for trying...then there are the more normal folk who squeak by, most with a day job to cover bills so they can afford to partake in this elixir called music which we each find addictive in our own way. Of course, there are also those out there who couldn't put together two notes if they had the notes handed to them, in order...my lovely wife among them (she takes pride, though, in being able to play a mean CD player!).
I've been to some liturgical music workshops with big names in the writing/composing business. Some of these folks are just down-to-Earth, really great, humble people...others are just so full of themselves, it's pathetic (but, gosh, they're also DARNED good musicians!).
I try not to get upset about those artists who shouldn't be on stage (IMO)... Likewise, I'll make the effort when I can to support those I enjoy. Like mickray said, they gotta eat, too. As for the rest of us, some are content to continue doing what we're doing because we don't desire to be on the stage full time. Personally, I enjoy the music, the challenges it presents, its heritage, and the atmosphere when I'm with others who share these things. Sure...a free pint now and then's a good thing...but my joy comes more from playing something new and getting that feeling of "that was cool -- let's do that again!"
So, Ashley, I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with most of what you're saying, that passion should be there, and in many cases likely is -- not just with the superstars but also with the pogues like me...but if it isn't, if folks are there just for the money, well...yep...but that's true of almost any endeavor. That's a fact of life (I've seen that in my line of work more than a few times...).
Geez, y'know, I have a good friend who gets as passionate about his electronics designing as I do about music ... and another one who's great with a camera ... and another one who's a hotshot sailor who has a gift for teaching it ... never heard anyone suggest to them that they shouldn't earn money from what turns them on.
If the point is that it's sad when playing music for money becomes a loveless exercise that is only undergone for the sake of the money ... yeah, OK, agree with that ... but a) those that play are as entitled to make their living out of doing their thing as anyone else is b) some level of plain hard work is to be expected in any occupation, so it ain't all going to be Cloud 9 no matter how much you love your job c) the fact that some play joylessly to make money does not mean that playing for money invariably kills the passion and everyone who earns money has sold out - one does not automatically follow the other.
Yeah I think the happiest people are those who can make a living doing what they love to do. Good on them, they have put in the yards and they deserve it.
Absolute balderdash?
Because performing it is just about bottom of the list if you wish to truly plumb the music's depths. Do I really need to eloborate?
It's just not meant for performing. It's crap to listen too. I don't mean simple. I mean it just doesn't hold aural attention. The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centres of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense.
So to make any half decent attempt at incorporating this stuff into a performance you have to load it with what you hope will be entertaining peripheries such as bodhrans and clever arrangements. But by doing this, you will only be obscuring the actual depths of it.
Perhaps Tim can elaborate on what he means by 'performing'.
Some people play their best music at their local session. Some play their best music in the privacy of their own homes, when everyone else is out. Some play their best on stage in front of an audience of 20,000.
"The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centres of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense. "
Michael - I'll disregard your first 4 points. As for the other ones, some people like that. Are you trying to say that *nobody* enjoys listening to Hamish Innes?
" When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don't really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. "
Just re-read this ...
I'm with beebs on this one. And Paul.
One way and another I have actually rubbed shoulders with some world class musicians in a couple of different fields, be it professional organists, legendary early music players or top-notch recording session musos ... some are the humblest most obliging and encouraging folks you'll meet, others are insufferable. And I cannot believe that people do workshops solely for passion, not the coin. I do (admittedly small) workshops in a field of music that is very much driven by personal belief, but by the time you've travelled even to Orange or Bathurst or Canberra to do it once or twice for nothing or petrol money, let me assure you it wears thin, even if only for the impact on your own practice and playing routines and the time slurped up in preparing for it. Sure, the fact that top players are passionate about their music means that they will do workshops for less than the absolute going rate - they understand the economics of the business they're in - but anyone who thinks they do it solely for the love of it is IMO off beam. They may do it for less than market rate because they enjoy it, but enjoyment alone without money ain't enough to entice busy pros (in a field where many have to have a day job to juggle as well) to disrupt their lives to that extent.
So I was listening to crap all those years before I started learning to play? You mean that Martin Byrnes LP I played over and over was a waste of time? I never should have bothered going to all those festivals and concerts?
I mean, how can you like music that only has 12 notes? And I don't even dance! All this time I thought I loved listening to pretty melodies and appreciating the talent of the musicians who played it, but I really didn't know anything at all!
It's off to Lincoln Center with me then, for some proper music. I'll be seeing Gil Shaham tomorrow and will get back to you and let you know if my musical sensibilities evolve.
well, I'm sounding more sarcastic this morning than I really feel. Sorry. But seriously, Michael, I could not possibly disagree more with this whole idea you have that any music that is not as sophisticated as classical music is "crap". Music does not have to be complex to be beautiful.
"it's crap to listen to"
Michael, you have come up with some pretty odd statements in your efforts to be provocative on this site, but that one takes the cake!
Llig’s post above is spot on (in my opinion)….the one about
tightness and resolving in the normal sense.
Now I don’t share his hatred of the bodhran , but he does have
a point about having to dress the music up to make it
interesting to people who don’t really give a toss about
it in the first place.
How many times have you heard people who don’t know the
music say “it all sounds the same”
Are they wrong ? Do we care ? We could spend a lifetime
trying to convert them, but they would never truly convert unless
they played.
By the way I’ve a feeling that by “perform” tim actually
meant “play” – we’ll see.
Anyway, I’m of to sell my soul to become beautiful and talented
and make vast amounts of money.
Kennedy, you've got it all back to front. I never said anything about the relative merits of sophistication, that's a completely different argument. And I never said Traditional Irish jigs, reels, slides etc were crap. I think they're bloody brilliant. It's just that I wouldn't invite, expect, or even wish to force anyone to sit through more than ten minutes of the stuff.
I don't understand why people here wont admit to the insufferable tedium of it to the general populace.
If I didn't get dosh for playing one genre, only ITM would loose out, as I would be off playing something else. That would be a shame.
In the meanwhile, I am out encouraging people to listen to ITM, encouraging musicians to play it, encouraging beginners, encouraging people to dance and also to organise dances, and lastly, I am getting the less well known instruments seen seen played in public (anglo, mandola etc),
Who cares what the general populace thinks? The general populace likes the Spice Girls and Britney Spears. The general populace does not know or care about musical talent.
And who cares about converting them? For those of us who like, no, LOVE Irish and Scottish music, it does NOT all sound the same, and we can listen to it all day long for years.
And my main point is that you don't have to play this stuff to love it. And non-players don't need to have it "dressed up" with bodhrans and fancy arrangements to love it. Or else Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke and Paddy Keenan would never be able to travel around the world and play it.
And who cares if it sounds the same anyway? Dougie MacLean has been writing basically the same song for his whole career, but I still buy his music because I like to listen to it, and I still go see him perform because the man is filled with music and it's wonderful to see.
I asked him that once. He can't be bothered carrying it around, with the guitar, going through airports and on and off planes and such. He plays it when he's home.
"spoon", you made me realize that I have been unclear...I did not mean "perform" in the sense of "play for an audience", I really just meant "play". At a session. In your bedroom. On a stage. Wherever. "Perform" in the most inclusive and general sense.
I have experienced ITM both as a listener and as a player/performer. The distinction I am looking at is between those two poles. (I am lumping together playing for personal enjoyment and playing for an audience. Maybe that's a bad idea. That's a separate discussion from the one I thought we were having.) While I won't go so far as to say that ITM is crap to listen to, I really think that it loses a lot if you don't have the intimacy that playing the notes yourself lends. It just sounds like a bunch of diddly diddly. My thoughts on this seems to be in agreement with what llig leahcim is getting at in saying that ITM is crap to listen to, and all of this seems to support my contention that you have to play this music to truly appreciate it. So what is the controversy here? I submit that it's a load of absolute balderdash.
bb - I have never claimed to know any 'big name stars' more than superficially, nor do I really care to. Within the context of a workshop, however, there are some genuine bonds of enthusiasm that do tie the big names to the neophytes.
Regarding instructors being real people, this has been my experience at Swannanoa in North Carolina, which I have been to for the past two years. You may indeed be absolutely correct, in that the instructors stay up late and get to know the students because they are calculating assholes who need to maintain an image, but I prefer to have a much less Machiavellian viewpoint towards them. Your cynicism simply does not match my personal experience at all. If it is a calculated image, then these people should be working in Hollywood, because they are much better actors than any movie star.
I teach professionally, and my own experience is that, yes, one must maintain a certain demeanor towards students. However, you canot fake genuine enthusiasm for something or genuine respect for another person that easily.
Not that I haven't met a few jerks who are into ITM as well. The yellow board seems to bring them out of the woodwork.
Michael, Pretty much every form of music has some intrinsic beauty, that reveals itself to someone. For some that beauty is found in heavy metal music, with screaming guitar solos. For some it is found in polyrhythmic drumming without a melody. For some it is the "high lonesome" harmonies of bluegrass singing. Myself, I don't hear the beauty in those forms of music. But that doesn't mean they are "crap" to listen to, they just not forms of music that I enjoy listening to. What I do enjoy is the type of music discussed on this board, not only playing it and dancing to it, but just plain listening to it. I am sorry you don't enjoy listening to it yourself. But the use of the word crap implies a value judgement, which some of us have quite understandably taken issue with. If you say that you yourself don't enjoy listening to it, that is a matter of personal taste that we cannot disagree with.
It's true that ITM sessions aren't a major spectator sport--but I have seen the general public enjoying them, so llig's "crap to listen to" comment is obviously not a universal truth.
An art historian once explained "beauty" something like this: Imagine that you are marooned on a planet called The Mud World. It has no features that we call beautiful--you know, like craggy mountains, lush meadows, sparkling seas, etc.--only brown mud and slime. And you would consider Mud Planet an ugly place indeed. But eventually, you would start to notice subtle differences in the shades of brown, see patterns of slime slowly changing in the mud pools, and start to enjoy them, even consider them beautiful.
The point is that beauty is created in the mind--in the eye of the beholder and all that. It isn't about how many notes are used, or how fast they're played, it's about presenting something that someone else (not everyone else, that's impossible) finds beautiful. The relative simplicity of ITM is one of the things that intrigues me about it.
Duh ... well of course my "crap to listen to" comment is obviously not a universal truth. I love listening to it (though only at its best). But that's the point, a handful of devotees does not a "spectator sport" make. I'm just trying to get you all to see it from the spectators point of view, that's all. What's wrong with holding your hand up and saying, "Yes, I enjoy a really obscure form of music that, quite frankly, is not for everyone"?
Though the Mud Planet is pertinent. It's about making an effort to discern the miniscule, and is a good description of this music. However, we are not marooned on the mud planet of diddley music, so, if you like, open your ears to more colour.
... and there is an interesting one about green:
Though the frequency band width of green light is similar to that of red, a human's eyes/brain can discern many many more subtle shades of green than red. It's not that the cones and rods at the back of your eye are more receptive to green, it's that the evolution of millions of years of being exposed to many many more subtle shades of green than red, our brains have become more attuned to green.
Wormdiet - I know nothing about North Carolina - nor do I care. But I do know my fair share of top class musicians who make a living touring the world and teaching classes - and all I meant that all is not as it may seem. I was really just having a dig at that whole lovey lovey huggy huggy americanism that drives me nuts and is yet again in full force on the yellow board - or maybe we should call it the Red white and blue board. So lets have a big hug and be all friends like and stuff, yo, yo and can we all play in a nice big session together one day and drink lots of mineral water and encourage everyone to play the Kesh all day long. I cant wait.
Ps -that the musicians "are calculating assholes who need to maintain an image" Just because they have opinions on players or sessions or whatever doesnt mean they are arseholes (the correct way to spell it) anyway. Just means they have an opinion and to be quite honest it really annoys me when they people on this board get their backs up because some people may not like a pesons style or a paricular tune or may not want to join in a particularly bad session. They get branded snobs etc...and its soooooo boring and goes back to the 'lovey lovey huggy huggy' thing I was going on with before....ssssnnnnnnoooooorrrreee
I meant to say 'That I didnt say' that the musicians are calculating etc etc hug hug. smiley smiley, rowwwwlllfffffff or something or nothing peace out folks.
If the music didn't have any passion it would never make any money. Only people that are passionate about their music will do what it takes to make money at it. Whether it's good or not is another matter entirely. sh*te music can be produced with passion, but whether it's sh*te or not depends on your own tastes and preferences. So I wouldn't draw the line between passion and money because they can both go hand in hand regardless of the outcome..
Personally I'd play whether or not I got paid, but thankfully am paid on and off, not much but it surely does help on the bills, and you get to have fun at the same time.
Some gigs, one regular one in particular, it was hard and one of the owners of the place was an abusive nightmare. Still we hung in because it paid decently, and I am one of the unlcuky who has to pay their own health insurance, and I am lucky enough to do it out of the music sometimes or at least contribute to it. We stayed about a year and a half, but still, I enjoyed the music. We were not allowed a break, for four hours though. We finally had a blow up and though they asked us back we wouldn't go, not for any money.
Truth of the matter..... and don't spread this around, is that if I had to PAY someone in order to play and it was the only way I could play, I would pay for the privelege.
Gigs come and go, but the music stays just the same.
Alright! I'M SORRY!!! Typo! Seamus Ennis! Jeeze... it's a rare occasion that i see the man's name in writing (god bless his soul).. whatever! the man's pipes are legendary! And yes, all them boys did play for money! But they support my argument that they were able to make money while doing what they love without losing the passion and love for the beauty of the music. Plus, if it wasn't for these monumental musicians going out there to the public the trad scene wouldn't be what it is today, do you not agree? All i was trying to say was that its sad that people forget what the music is about in the first place.
As of players in sessions, let me be more specific... its within reason. What i'm saying is that all players don't need to be a Tommy Potts, as long as they understand and love the music, and if the session shares that passion, skill level shouldn't matter because the beauty of the music is there, and that's what matters. If you go on shutting down those who arn't to your level, the session has lost its meaning and it becomes a competition of egos, when it should be about the craic that shines through the music. My GOD! It's awsome!
I think I'm with you on this latest post, Ashley... I try to make sure the session I'm in goes to the heart of the music, not just the notes on the page...that we try to feel the mood of the music, the beat, the spirit, beyond the dots and lines. Not all songs sound the same to us, but to someone not familiar with ITM, all whistle tunes seem to sound the same...same with fiddle tunes, etc... (my daughter at IL State University has a roomie who's not at all familiar with ITM...complained that everything daughter was practicing sounded the same.)
The beauty of the music, as you said, comes easily enough from one's own interpretation of the music itself. I could play an air differently from you, but both renditions could produce equally moving experiences to a listener.
I actually have been chuckling at a lot of these postings, thinking about a jazz artist I berate for his music sounding the same all the time. Kenny G has made many recordings over the last few decades, has many hits, done many cover tunes, all in "his" style (which even to me, a jazz musician of many years before jumping into ITM, makes many of his tunes sound like one another) -- and it all still remains insanely popular! Why?... Because he captures the spirit of the music he's playing, even if his rhythms, his ornamentation, etc. vary minutely from tune to tune. There's a stark difference in feeling of his wedding song compared with his rendition of Count Basie's "What a Wonderful World." But both tunes move me just as much, just as deeply...
And yeah, so it seems that everyone plays Kesh, or Britches Full of Stitches, again and again and again. In our little group, they're among the group's favorites (OK, maybe we're easily entertained...y'know...simple pleasures for simple minds...). But we try to keep them fresh and not just follow the dots on the page.
I think, Ashley, that's where you're heading -- in a way. It's beyond just going through the motions...the passion in the music is what makes ITM special. Heck, in any musical genre, for that matter. Anyone can follow dots. Anyone can deliver motions... Making music that moves people, leaves an impression and makes you want more, that's success. If you can get a few scheckles for it, so much the better.
It should be about the passion not the coin
It should be about the passion not the coin
G'day! I'm new on thesession.org and I thought to use it to rant, i'm sorry if its crazy long or if i offend anyone, i'm just ranting.
Woa! Okay. The music. It's amazing. I'm not talking about the Pogues or anything like that, I mean people like Tommy Peoples, Bobby Casey, Seamus Innes, Johnny Doherty, John Vesey, Willie Clancy, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh and all them fellas. Heck, I'll admit it, I even like a little bit of Lunasa and The Cheiftains from time to time. The passion in the music is breath-taking, there really is no way to describe it. I think the only ones who could really understand the passion i feel are those who play the music. It's absolutly mind numbing the effect it has on the player. In a session, if the true passion and love for the beauty of the music is there, skill level shouldn't make a difference because we're all there for the same reason... the love for the music and to be able to just forget all our worldly troubles for a few short minutes as we all connect on a tune that we play more then three times around because the vibe and connection is just so strong. That is what the music is about: getting together for some craic and playing your troubles away while sharing a deep passion and love with a variety of different older and younger fellas. It's beautiful isn't it? But what makes me sad is when people lose the idea behind the traditional music, try and make some money out of it or whatever and somehow the understanding of the craic within the music gets disfigured into something stressful and horrible and therefore loses the idea and passion. This is so sad. Let me just make it clear right now, it's not about the money (though it is nice to make some extra coin). HOWEVER! If you're able to do it and see the money or fame thing as a bonus then good for you! That's how it should be! I think you should be able to share your love for the music to everyone because it is just too outstanding to keep it hiding in a small pub somewhere, but please never let it become something bad in your life. Because it's not. And if it does becomes a negative thing for you, it's your own fault because you apprently have a very negative view on life. And that's all i have to say on that subject!
Phew! That feels better!
'til next time! -Ash
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by fiddlr620
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Welcome aboard Ashley.
As for your 'rant', I think you'll find that you are preaching to the converted here, at least with the first half of your loooooooong paragragh!
As for your playing for money point.
Lots of different people here play for money, in many different ways, from those of us who get paid in cash or kind (often drink) at our weekly sessions, to those who tour the world, producing mighty CDs into the bargain & inspiring the rest of us, one way or another along the way.
Playing for cash isn't necessarily a bad thing, loads of folks here do it & I'm convinced that it does not spoil their enjoyment of the music.
I reckon the love & passion they have for playing can't be dampened by a little thing like money!
By the way, I think that's a strange way you have of ending your schpeel:
"And that's all i have to say on that subject!"???????
Remember this is, after all, a 'Discussion Forum, so shouldn't you be inviting debate & discussion with your thread & so be up 100% for any discussion, debate or argument which your thread might provoke?
So come out from behind that filing cabinet AT ONCE ... & 'face the music'!
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Hey Ashley, welcome to the barnyard here, hope you enjoy it.
I know a number of people who do "make some money" out of playing The Music, i.e., as a part or full-time enterprise -- they tour and perform regularly and also have recordings for sale. But from what I've seen, they make a point of doing exactly the thing you praise: Just sit in a pub, or in a house party with some friends, and play for the fun of it all. It's not even a matter of "Well, I've got some time to kill today, so what the heck, I'll go out and play tunes" -- they believe doing this is intrinsically important to keeping their perspective on The Music and its role in their lives. They also find these informal sessions a way to meet new people, expand the circle of their musical acquaintances and thus broaden the scope of their overall musical experience.
And that to my mind is what makes them not only great performers and great musicians, but pretty excellent people in their own regard.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by sts
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
lovely sentiment, but the odd caveat ...
You say, "skill level shouldn't make a difference". I'm afraid it does.
Though I'm not talking mere technique of course. The "skill" I think of IS the "deep passion and love" that you refer to. But to share it successfully you have to have the combination of deep passion, love and knowledge, which should, in time, equate to deep understanding.
We all love the youngster who turns up with "passion and love for the beauty of the music" and give them all the time we can. But before we can really share it, knowledge is a pre requisite.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Ashley, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. There are always going to be people who are going to make money from music, and traditional music is just another faecet of music. And if it doesn't exist in a commercial marketplace than trad can only be spread by people converting people outside of the fold into it, which will result in an eventual death. Personally, I think that the fact that there is a level at which musicians can make enough money to live encourages the good musicians to try to become great. And it provides us with access to the greats which give us enjoyment and something to strive for.
That said, I don't approve of music for the purpose of making money, but considering how much work some of the great players put in throughout their lives I think it's fair enough they get to devote their life to it and have enough money to survive.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Andy V
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Fáilte!!
I'm just about to head off to the Eddie Duffy festival in Derrygonnelly for three and a bit days of wall to wall music in the twilight zone. We get put up and a few £££ towards the drinking fund but people travel from far and wide at their own expense just to get together to play the tunes and it's fecking marvellous!
I have no problem at all about someone getting filthy lucre for doing what they enjoy. Indeed many sessions in this part of the world now depend upon a core of paid musos to make them happen. It also means that some of the guys and gals can actually earn a crust from doing what they love.
And also no problem with young [or old] musos who are still just learning joining in - most of us are still going to be learning into our 80's ! But the skill is important - both temperamentally and style wise. If someone is an out of tune tube at the music then I would encourage them to go off and learn a few sets properly before joinging in. Maybe even take a class or workshop or two.
But otherwise? - enjoy.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by breandan
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Welcome Ashley. I'll echo your passion for this music. The music is pure magic, and performing it is the only way to truly plumb its depths.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Who the feck is Seamus Innes?
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Floss the Tethers
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Seamus Ennis, I suppose. Distant relative of Seymour Butts and Rick O'Shea.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Actually one of the things about this music that I love is how those who *do* make a living at it are normal, approachable people who recognize the 'passion' in others. When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don;t really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. In a certain sense, skill level really is irrelevant to an appreciation of the music and the shared sense of purpose. These things unite the Lunasas of the world with the newbs who've been playing less than a year. It's precious, actually, and I hope ITM neverr loses it.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Hi Ashley
I share llig's reservation. Proper passion runs a bit deeper than the unbridled, sometimes unskilled enthusiasm that can occasionally and usually unwittingly blight an evening's music.
But hell, we all started the same way. You'll always get a few sour old gits like me around music. Welcome.
MYBC
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I would have to agree with you Ashley.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Welcome to the mustard board and to the musical journey Ashley. It’s great to see such an enthusiastic rant.
I figure though that if a musician is good enough to get paid for playing whether its from doing gigs or CD’s or whatever, that if you divide all the time spent developing their skill by practicing, listening and generally immersing themselves in Irish Music by the amount of income they get that the actual rate/hour pay is probably miniscule.
Irish Musicians ain’t doing it for the money IMO.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by gtag
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
tim_debruine says "performing it is the only way to truly plumb the music's depths".
Absolute balderdash.
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
What *****ss me off is "pop" stars and wanabes with hardly any talent for music/playing, making vasts amount of money for doing very little. Many of em can't play anything at all . . but their young and good looking and prepared to sell their souls to the devil for stardom . .
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Justintime
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Oh come off it, don't be such a sour puss. How can you be p*sssed off with the young and good looking selling their souls.
And you talk of "vast amount of money"? Vast? Who are you talking about? Reality check?
Chill out baby
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
This gets to the heart of why I am sold on this music. It seems that the people who are deeply into it understand that the best things in life aren't really free--it's just that you can't buy them with money.
A person who gets a lot of money for making shoddy music gets only money. But a person who studies and works hard gets improved skills and deeper understanding--things that can't be bought with money, but can only be earned by years of hard work.
On the other hand, I have no problem buying CDs, concert tickets, etc. to support people who have earned those skills and that knowledge. They have to eat too.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by mickray
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Ashley's list of favorite musicians contradicts the point he's trying to make--most of them played for money, even earning a living from the music. I would say that Tommy Peoples, Bobby Casey, and Seamus Ennis are proof enough that you can certainly "play for pay" and not sell your soul or sell out the music itself.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
yeah well these skinny little things are usually only worth their weight in gold.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Joze
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
llig leahcim, you say that what I wrote is "Absolute balderdash."
Would you care to elaborate on this assessment and why I might be inclined to accept it? I don't have cast iron proof of my claim but I think I have some good reasons to believe as I do. But I am wondering if you even care or if you are just taking a p*ss. If that is all you are doing, I hope it's ever so enjoyable for you.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I think that every discussion board on the web has a sh*t-stirrer.
llig "don't be such a sourpuss" (???!!!) leachim is ours. ;>}
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by mickray
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I agree with llig on that one - Tim - I just assumed at first that you were sh*t stirring. I've performed and played in many sessions and believe the opposite cranking it up at sessions ' is the only way to truly plumb its depths.'
Also - I wonder how many people here actually hang out with incredible musicians.....because I mustve missed the day that they were *all* (every single one of them)
"were normal, approachable people who recognize the 'passion' in others. When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don;t really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. In a certain sense, skill level really is irrelevant to an appreciation of the music and the shared sense of purpose. These things unite the Lunasas of the world with the newbs who've been playing less than a year. It's precious, actually, and I hope ITM neverr loses it."
Of course the instructors have to be nice to you when youve paid to go to a summer camp/workshop - but behind closed doors and stuff its a whole different ball game. Not talking about Lunasa in particular and not pointing fingers at all...but there are many 'Superstar' egos among the elite players....and if you say otherwise - it just proves my point that you dont really know them at all.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
"Who the feck is Seamus Innes?"
Perhaps Ashley meant Hamish Innes.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by ragaman
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
This is a two-edged blade...there are really passionate people out there who make a darned good living playing, singing, etc. any kind of music...there are the dolts who couldn't put two in-tune notes together and still get paid big dough for trying...then there are the more normal folk who squeak by, most with a day job to cover bills so they can afford to partake in this elixir called music which we each find addictive in our own way. Of course, there are also those out there who couldn't put together two notes if they had the notes handed to them, in order...my lovely wife among them (she takes pride, though, in being able to play a mean CD player!).
I've been to some liturgical music workshops with big names in the writing/composing business. Some of these folks are just down-to-Earth, really great, humble people...others are just so full of themselves, it's pathetic (but, gosh, they're also DARNED good musicians!).
I try not to get upset about those artists who shouldn't be on stage (IMO)... Likewise, I'll make the effort when I can to support those I enjoy. Like mickray said, they gotta eat, too. As for the rest of us, some are content to continue doing what we're doing because we don't desire to be on the stage full time. Personally, I enjoy the music, the challenges it presents, its heritage, and the atmosphere when I'm with others who share these things. Sure...a free pint now and then's a good thing...but my joy comes more from playing something new and getting that feeling of "that was cool -- let's do that again!"
So, Ashley, I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with most of what you're saying, that passion should be there, and in many cases likely is -- not just with the superstars but also with the pogues like me...but if it isn't, if folks are there just for the money, well...yep...but that's true of almost any endeavor. That's a fact of life (I've seen that in my line of work more than a few times...).
Paul
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by pn5jn
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Geez, y'know, I have a good friend who gets as passionate about his electronics designing as I do about music ... and another one who's great with a camera ... and another one who's a hotshot sailor who has a gift for teaching it ... never heard anyone suggest to them that they shouldn't earn money from what turns them on.
If the point is that it's sad when playing music for money becomes a loveless exercise that is only undergone for the sake of the money ... yeah, OK, agree with that ... but a) those that play are as entitled to make their living out of doing their thing as anyone else is b) some level of plain hard work is to be expected in any occupation, so it ain't all going to be Cloud 9 no matter how much you love your job c) the fact that some play joylessly to make money does not mean that playing for money invariably kills the passion and everyone who earns money has sold out - one does not automatically follow the other.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Tish
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Yeah I think the happiest people are those who can make a living doing what they love to do. Good on them, they have put in the yards and they deserve it.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Absolute balderdash?
Because performing it is just about bottom of the list if you wish to truly plumb the music's depths. Do I really need to eloborate?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
yes
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
deep exhalation ...
... right then:
It's just not meant for performing. It's crap to listen too. I don't mean simple. I mean it just doesn't hold aural attention. The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centres of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense.
So to make any half decent attempt at incorporating this stuff into a performance you have to load it with what you hope will be entertaining peripheries such as bodhrans and clever arrangements. But by doing this, you will only be obscuring the actual depths of it.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Perhaps Tim can elaborate on what he means by 'performing'.
Some people play their best music at their local session. Some play their best music in the privacy of their own homes, when everyone else is out. Some play their best on stage in front of an audience of 20,000.
"The tunes are very short, much shorter than any other music I can think of. The "decoration" and "variation" (same thing in my book), when used well mixes up the tunes anyway, and is baffling to the ear. And the range, both in pitch and dynamics is constrictingly tight. The notes out of the twelve available are almost always the same, though the tonal centres of the tunes vary quite a lot. This has the effect, over a set of tunes, of never resolving in the standard sense. "
Michael - I'll disregard your first 4 points. As for the other ones, some people like that. Are you trying to say that *nobody* enjoys listening to Hamish Innes?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by ragaman
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
" When the big-name instructors come to summer workshops and such, they don't really do it for the money but because they enjoy it. "
Just re-read this ...
I'm with beebs on this one. And Paul.
One way and another I have actually rubbed shoulders with some world class musicians in a couple of different fields, be it professional organists, legendary early music players or top-notch recording session musos ... some are the humblest most obliging and encouraging folks you'll meet, others are insufferable. And I cannot believe that people do workshops solely for passion, not the coin. I do (admittedly small) workshops in a field of music that is very much driven by personal belief, but by the time you've travelled even to Orange or Bathurst or Canberra to do it once or twice for nothing or petrol money, let me assure you it wears thin, even if only for the impact on your own practice and playing routines and the time slurped up in preparing for it. Sure, the fact that top players are passionate about their music means that they will do workshops for less than the absolute going rate - they understand the economics of the business they're in - but anyone who thinks they do it solely for the love of it is IMO off beam. They may do it for less than market rate because they enjoy it, but enjoyment alone without money ain't enough to entice busy pros (in a field where many have to have a day job to juggle as well) to disrupt their lives to that extent.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Tish
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
"It's crap to listen to"
So I was listening to crap all those years before I started learning to play? You mean that Martin Byrnes LP I played over and over was a waste of time? I never should have bothered going to all those festivals and concerts?
I mean, how can you like music that only has 12 notes? And I don't even dance! All this time I thought I loved listening to pretty melodies and appreciating the talent of the musicians who played it, but I really didn't know anything at all!
It's off to Lincoln Center with me then, for some proper music. I'll be seeing Gil Shaham tomorrow and will get back to you and let you know if my musical sensibilities evolve.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by kennedy
well, I'm sounding more sarcastic this morning than I really feel. Sorry. But seriously, Michael, I could not possibly disagree more with this whole idea you have that any music that is not as sophisticated as classical music is "crap". Music does not have to be complex to be beautiful.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by kennedy
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
"it's crap to listen to"
Michael, you have come up with some pretty odd statements in your efforts to be provocative on this site, but that one takes the cake!
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
“Crap to listen to” does not equal “crap”
Llig’s post above is spot on (in my opinion)….the one about
tightness and resolving in the normal sense.
Now I don’t share his hatred of the bodhran , but he does have
a point about having to dress the music up to make it
interesting to people who don’t really give a toss about
it in the first place.
How many times have you heard people who don’t know the
music say “it all sounds the same”
Are they wrong ? Do we care ? We could spend a lifetime
trying to convert them, but they would never truly convert unless
they played.
By the way I’ve a feeling that by “perform” tim actually
meant “play” – we’ll see.
Anyway, I’m of to sell my soul to become beautiful and talented
and make vast amounts of money.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by BegF
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Kennedy, you've got it all back to front. I never said anything about the relative merits of sophistication, that's a completely different argument. And I never said Traditional Irish jigs, reels, slides etc were crap. I think they're bloody brilliant. It's just that I wouldn't invite, expect, or even wish to force anyone to sit through more than ten minutes of the stuff.
I don't understand why people here wont admit to the insufferable tedium of it to the general populace.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Thanks Beg
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
You've got to love it when someone names himself llig leahcim then tells other people that they've "got it all back to front".
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by joesmith
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
If I didn't get dosh for playing one genre, only ITM would loose out, as I would be off playing something else. That would be a shame.
In the meanwhile, I am out encouraging people to listen to ITM, encouraging musicians to play it, encouraging beginners, encouraging people to dance and also to organise dances, and lastly, I am getting the less well known instruments seen seen played in public (anglo, mandola etc),
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Who cares what the general populace thinks? The general populace likes the Spice Girls and Britney Spears. The general populace does not know or care about musical talent.
And who cares about converting them? For those of us who like, no, LOVE Irish and Scottish music, it does NOT all sound the same, and we can listen to it all day long for years.
And my main point is that you don't have to play this stuff to love it. And non-players don't need to have it "dressed up" with bodhrans and fancy arrangements to love it. Or else Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke and Paddy Keenan would never be able to travel around the world and play it.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by kennedy
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
And who cares if it sounds the same anyway? Dougie MacLean has been writing basically the same song for his whole career, but I still buy his music because I like to listen to it, and I still go see him perform because the man is filled with music and it's wonderful to see.
Am I making sense?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by kennedy
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Ever wondered why Dougi MacLean doesn't play his fiddle much at gigs?
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I asked him that once. He can't be bothered carrying it around, with the guitar, going through airports and on and off planes and such. He plays it when he's home.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by kennedy
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
"spoon", you made me realize that I have been unclear...I did not mean "perform" in the sense of "play for an audience", I really just meant "play". At a session. In your bedroom. On a stage. Wherever. "Perform" in the most inclusive and general sense.
I have experienced ITM both as a listener and as a player/performer. The distinction I am looking at is between those two poles. (I am lumping together playing for personal enjoyment and playing for an audience. Maybe that's a bad idea. That's a separate discussion from the one I thought we were having.) While I won't go so far as to say that ITM is crap to listen to, I really think that it loses a lot if you don't have the intimacy that playing the notes yourself lends. It just sounds like a bunch of diddly diddly. My thoughts on this seems to be in agreement with what llig leahcim is getting at in saying that ITM is crap to listen to, and all of this seems to support my contention that you have to play this music to truly appreciate it. So what is the controversy here? I submit that it's a load of absolute balderdash.
- Tim "Balderdash" DeBruine
PS: Balderdash
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by crazy_fingerz
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
"You've got to love it when someone names himself llig leahcim then tells other people that they've "got it all back to front"!
Thanks for that one Laitch, best laugh I've had in ages!
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
bb - I have never claimed to know any 'big name stars' more than superficially, nor do I really care to. Within the context of a workshop, however, there are some genuine bonds of enthusiasm that do tie the big names to the neophytes.
Regarding instructors being real people, this has been my experience at Swannanoa in North Carolina, which I have been to for the past two years. You may indeed be absolutely correct, in that the instructors stay up late and get to know the students because they are calculating assholes who need to maintain an image, but I prefer to have a much less Machiavellian viewpoint towards them. Your cynicism simply does not match my personal experience at all. If it is a calculated image, then these people should be working in Hollywood, because they are much better actors than any movie star.
I teach professionally, and my own experience is that, yes, one must maintain a certain demeanor towards students. However, you canot fake genuine enthusiasm for something or genuine respect for another person that easily.
Not that I haven't met a few jerks who are into ITM as well. The yellow board seems to bring them out of the woodwork.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Michael, Pretty much every form of music has some intrinsic beauty, that reveals itself to someone. For some that beauty is found in heavy metal music, with screaming guitar solos. For some it is found in polyrhythmic drumming without a melody. For some it is the "high lonesome" harmonies of bluegrass singing. Myself, I don't hear the beauty in those forms of music. But that doesn't mean they are "crap" to listen to, they just not forms of music that I enjoy listening to. What I do enjoy is the type of music discussed on this board, not only playing it and dancing to it, but just plain listening to it. I am sorry you don't enjoy listening to it yourself. But the use of the word crap implies a value judgement, which some of us have quite understandably taken issue with. If you say that you yourself don't enjoy listening to it, that is a matter of personal taste that we cannot disagree with.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
It's true that ITM sessions aren't a major spectator sport--but I have seen the general public enjoying them, so llig's "crap to listen to" comment is obviously not a universal truth.
An art historian once explained "beauty" something like this: Imagine that you are marooned on a planet called The Mud World. It has no features that we call beautiful--you know, like craggy mountains, lush meadows, sparkling seas, etc.--only brown mud and slime. And you would consider Mud Planet an ugly place indeed. But eventually, you would start to notice subtle differences in the shades of brown, see patterns of slime slowly changing in the mud pools, and start to enjoy them, even consider them beautiful.
The point is that beauty is created in the mind--in the eye of the beholder and all that. It isn't about how many notes are used, or how fast they're played, it's about presenting something that someone else (not everyone else, that's impossible) finds beautiful. The relative simplicity of ITM is one of the things that intrigues me about it.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by mickray
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Duh ... well of course my "crap to listen to" comment is obviously not a universal truth. I love listening to it (though only at its best). But that's the point, a handful of devotees does not a "spectator sport" make. I'm just trying to get you all to see it from the spectators point of view, that's all. What's wrong with holding your hand up and saying, "Yes, I enjoy a really obscure form of music that, quite frankly, is not for everyone"?
Though the Mud Planet is pertinent. It's about making an effort to discern the miniscule, and is a good description of this music. However, we are not marooned on the mud planet of diddley music, so, if you like, open your ears to more colour.
... and there is an interesting one about green:
Though the frequency band width of green light is similar to that of red, a human's eyes/brain can discern many many more subtle shades of green than red. It's not that the cones and rods at the back of your eye are more receptive to green, it's that the evolution of millions of years of being exposed to many many more subtle shades of green than red, our brains have become more attuned to green.
# Posted on October 13th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Unless you are colour blind.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Wormdiet - I know nothing about North Carolina - nor do I care. But I do know my fair share of top class musicians who make a living touring the world and teaching classes - and all I meant that all is not as it may seem. I was really just having a dig at that whole lovey lovey huggy huggy americanism that drives me nuts and is yet again in full force on the yellow board - or maybe we should call it the Red white and blue board. So lets have a big hug and be all friends like and stuff, yo, yo and can we all play in a nice big session together one day and drink lots of mineral water and encourage everyone to play the Kesh all day long. I cant wait.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Ps -that the musicians "are calculating assholes who need to maintain an image" Just because they have opinions on players or sessions or whatever doesnt mean they are arseholes (the correct way to spell it) anyway. Just means they have an opinion and to be quite honest it really annoys me when they people on this board get their backs up because some people may not like a pesons style or a paricular tune or may not want to join in a particularly bad session. They get branded snobs etc...and its soooooo boring and goes back to the 'lovey lovey huggy huggy' thing I was going on with before....ssssnnnnnnoooooorrrreee
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I meant to say 'That I didnt say' that the musicians are calculating etc etc hug hug. smiley smiley, rowwwwlllfffffff or something or nothing peace out folks.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
'It should be about the passion..'
There can be plenty of passion in a session but not a lot of true music.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by gtag
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
If the music didn't have any passion it would never make any money. Only people that are passionate about their music will do what it takes to make money at it. Whether it's good or not is another matter entirely. sh*te music can be produced with passion, but whether it's sh*te or not depends on your own tastes and preferences. So I wouldn't draw the line between passion and money because they can both go hand in hand regardless of the outcome..
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Personally I'd play whether or not I got paid, but thankfully am paid on and off, not much but it surely does help on the bills, and you get to have fun at the same time.
Some gigs, one regular one in particular, it was hard and one of the owners of the place was an abusive nightmare. Still we hung in because it paid decently, and I am one of the unlcuky who has to pay their own health insurance, and I am lucky enough to do it out of the music sometimes or at least contribute to it. We stayed about a year and a half, but still, I enjoyed the music. We were not allowed a break, for four hours though. We finally had a blow up and though they asked us back we wouldn't go, not for any money.
Truth of the matter..... and don't spread this around, is that if I had to PAY someone in order to play and it was the only way I could play, I would pay for the privelege.
Gigs come and go, but the music stays just the same.
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by irisnevins
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Alright! I'M SORRY!!! Typo! Seamus Ennis! Jeeze... it's a rare occasion that i see the man's name in writing (god bless his soul).. whatever! the man's pipes are legendary! And yes, all them boys did play for money! But they support my argument that they were able to make money while doing what they love without losing the passion and love for the beauty of the music. Plus, if it wasn't for these monumental musicians going out there to the public the trad scene wouldn't be what it is today, do you not agree? All i was trying to say was that its sad that people forget what the music is about in the first place.
As of players in sessions, let me be more specific... its within reason. What i'm saying is that all players don't need to be a Tommy Potts, as long as they understand and love the music, and if the session shares that passion, skill level shouldn't matter because the beauty of the music is there, and that's what matters. If you go on shutting down those who arn't to your level, the session has lost its meaning and it becomes a competition of egos, when it should be about the craic that shines through the music. My GOD! It's awsome!
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by fiddlr620
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
Ashley wrote: "If you go on shutting down those who arn't to your level"
Who does this?
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
As a talented fiddler friend told me - "If I were in it for the money, I'd play country."
# Posted on October 14th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: It should be about the passion not the coin
I think I'm with you on this latest post, Ashley... I try to make sure the session I'm in goes to the heart of the music, not just the notes on the page...that we try to feel the mood of the music, the beat, the spirit, beyond the dots and lines. Not all songs sound the same to us, but to someone not familiar with ITM, all whistle tunes seem to sound the same...same with fiddle tunes, etc... (my daughter at IL State University has a roomie who's not at all familiar with ITM...complained that everything daughter was practicing sounded the same.)
The beauty of the music, as you said, comes easily enough from one's own interpretation of the music itself. I could play an air differently from you, but both renditions could produce equally moving experiences to a listener.
I actually have been chuckling at a lot of these postings, thinking about a jazz artist I berate for his music sounding the same all the time. Kenny G has made many recordings over the last few decades, has many hits, done many cover tunes, all in "his" style (which even to me, a jazz musician of many years before jumping into ITM, makes many of his tunes sound like one another) -- and it all still remains insanely popular! Why?... Because he captures the spirit of the music he's playing, even if his rhythms, his ornamentation, etc. vary minutely from tune to tune. There's a stark difference in feeling of his wedding song compared with his rendition of Count Basie's "What a Wonderful World." But both tunes move me just as much, just as deeply...
And yeah, so it seems that everyone plays Kesh, or Britches Full of Stitches, again and again and again. In our little group, they're among the group's favorites (OK, maybe we're easily entertained...y'know...simple pleasures for simple minds...). But we try to keep them fresh and not just follow the dots on the page.
I think, Ashley, that's where you're heading -- in a way. It's beyond just going through the motions...the passion in the music is what makes ITM special. Heck, in any musical genre, for that matter. Anyone can follow dots. Anyone can deliver motions... Making music that moves people, leaves an impression and makes you want more, that's success. If you can get a few scheckles for it, so much the better.
# Posted on October 16th 2006 by pn5jn