Being a grumpy old man, set in his ways, I don't get to listen to a lot of music from "modern" groups. Today I heard "Flook" and "Lunasa" two groups frequently mentioned on the board.
Lunasa, the bits I heard, are fairly faithful to the genre, but Flook could be described as "jazzed up" Irish music. Wonderful to listen too, but not exactly traditional. Normally I have no problem with people playing around with the music, I still adore Horslips, but as the music speads throughout the world, if your first exposure was Flook, you could start of on the wrong foot.
A simple example. The bodhran in flook, wonderful, but it is not traditional bodhran playing. Doubtless John Joe can adapt if he was at a Ceoltas session, but many who learn solely in this style, cannot. I imagine the same would apply to the flute.
I have touched on this before, and the banjo of Gerry O'Connor, a wonderful player, but he plays in what I refer to as "cajun" style. Many learn the banjo in this style, and discover that the amount of triplets and showy bits would put them out of synch at a ceoltas session.
Perhaps it is best to learn the music first in the traditional style, as doubtless O'Connor, John Joe and McGoldrick did, and then be innovative. Too many nowadays appear to have simply copied the style of these fine musicians from the outset, to the detriment of many a session.
I think this shows us both the upside and downside of "our times". It is much easier to find good recordings of ITM, espescially for those who live far from access to great players, but it is easy for people who don't know any better to end up thinking that groups like this are truly representative of the music as it is played in sessions in Ireland.
This is part of the reason so many sessions here in the States end up a hodgepodge of various styles, combining Irish trad with Old Timey, Bluegrass, Pop, etc. Players in these sessions are often even quite hostile to the idea of playing just Irish Trad in a trad style. I've been accused of being "not inclusive enough", for discouraging other styles (lumped together under the phoney term "Celtic") at my own session here in Denver.
I think it shows an ignorance of and total lack of respect for the music, but that's just old, fussy, "non-inclusive" me.
Don't get the wrong idea though, I'm not losing sleep over it.
The U.S. has a centuries-old tradition of being a melting pot of cultures, so it's not surprising that the concept of sticking to one culture would meet with a certain amount of resistance. The "melting pot" history is one that is drilled into us all through school.
I am fans of Flook and Lunasa, but I know they are not completley trad. The main reasons I say Lunasa aren't pure trad is the use of Double Bass and new tunes. Since I have been going to sessions, I have made the effort to play as a sessioner. Albeit, when I first started going to sessions, I didn't and I realized what tunes I should learn and how I should play. Yes, if you are playing with a couple others who want to mess around and you do to, go for it.
I.E there is a Fiddler who I play with once or twice a week here at school. We are actually scheduled to play for a reception in about a month. Once, while he was playing a Hornpipe and I was playing my Octave Mandolin, I put some jazzier chords and rhythms in. Now, it was fun for the time being, but he didn't want me to play it in the concert, so I said ok I don't have to.
Modern groups like Lunasa and Flook are themselves influenced by ITM. The success of these groups relies on the depth of how they've been influenced and their understanding of it. Also, it will come through in their music. The influence their music has on anyone else is up to those individuals and whether they attempt to just copy it, or first investigate, research and understand the roots of it. Usually the influence inspires musicians to do this -- and that would be good. But if they only attempt to imitate it without bothering to understand it -- that's bad -- for them anyway. The rest of us wouldn't have to stick around and listen to it.
I think the problem arises when people use Flook or Lunasa as the sole influence and never come to grips with the more traditional stuff. Kinda like listening to The Rolling Stones and never being exposed to Son House...
Uh oh... I have no idea who "Son House" is. But the first guitar riff I learned was from "This Will Be the Last Time." (I was a teenager) Many a bad garage band was formed to imitate bands like the Stones. I know because I was in one. But a lot of people have been imitating rock bands and finding loads of fans regardless of their understanding. Even bad Celtic Rock bands manage to find fans... and in large numbers. But those people aren’t fans of ITM... until perhaps they investigate the roots of the "Celtic Rock" and later become fans of ITM. But by then those fans will have lost interest in the "Celtic Rock."
Personally, when I play there are very few "Celtic Rock" fans that would have any interest. And the people who enjoy what I play wouldn't usually be found attending "Celtic Rock" gigs either. The crowd that goes to "Celtic Rock" gigs is much bigger here in the US than the true ITM fan base... but that's just fine with me. I'm not playing this music because of the popularity of it. I just love it.
But the person who started this thread wasn't talking about bad Celtic Rock bands; he's referring to brilliant modern Irish bands like Lunasa. I suppose there will be people who are influenced by them, set out to imitate them -- and even find lots of fans who are unfamiliar with ITM that will enjoy their music. Is this bad or good? It depends on your perspective. If you know nothing about ITM and you hear it, like it, and have a good time -- no harm in that. If you're an ITM aficionado -- you'll probably just stick with the more traditional stuff and/or enjoy the bands like Lunasa that are clearly well rooted in traditional music rather than wasting your time listening to the imitators. In other words -- you'll know the difference. So I guess my answer at the end of the day is that it's all good.
The first Irish band I ever heard was Lúnasa. They're my favorite band and they always will be, and I know they're not a 100% traditional band, but thanks to them I discovered ITM and started to learn the whistle and the flute. They influenced me greatly.
PB, Son House is one of the first Blues Guitar players. Kind of like the Michael Coleman or Leo Rowsome in the Blues world. I think Farr's point was that someone can't play real Blues by listening to something that was influnced by it, and someone can't play real ITM if they have never listened to it.
Hmm, now where have I seen this topic before???? haha...Again...They rock in their own way, but they do know their roots. But if someone shows up at a session having only listened to/imitated Lunasa, that's their problem. If they aren't educated enough about ITM to know what TRADITIONAL sounds like, then they aren't educated enough to be at a session.
Oh America...melting pot is good. But I'm pretty sure that wanting to play IRISH music at an IRISH session is understandable. I listen to a gigantic variety of music, but if I'm at a trad session then I would expect it to be trad...whoever's saying you're not open-minded enough just has problems.
And on Celtic Rock...I dunno...I like Flogging Molly and the Corrs...but their fanbase here in the States would never listen to real trad. Which is why I get mad whenever I see a shirt for them on a "rebel, nonconformist" teenager...
There are a lot of interesting ideas here. I enjoy both Altan or Danu , mar shampla, and also older very 'simple' recordings of Seamus Ennis etc on the likes of Seoltai Seidte. I have even grown to like Kila through numerous plays on Raidio na Gaeltachta on my way to work.
I live in Belfast and the 'scene' is really taking off ,again, now. Perhaps there are lessons to learn from those of you in the states who play mixed culture sessions. I recently was at an 'unusual' session that had a fair mix of Ulster and 'Irish' music/song. It was good, you know- full of surprises.
Music (trad) is alive anyway. You could quote Charles Stewart Parnell "No man has a right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation..."
No one can say "you can't play that, it isn't Irish". If they did, you probably couldn't play polkas, reels, hornpipes, barndances...
The point is they were all absorbed into Irish folk tradition. Notably, different areas in Ireland have different local styles AND tunes. Slides and Polkas in Kerry; 'Highlands' strathspeys in Donegal. Proof, I think, of the fluidity of the music and long may it continue.
Although double bass isn't traditional in traditional music (or at least I'm not able to find any use of it traditionally) , a bass instrument is. The cello has existed in trad for many many more years than the guitar, so in my mind, I reckon bass has as much as a place in ITM as DADGAD guitar however, as fewer people play it, it's not as widespread and accepted.
"They're the first Irish band I ever heard. They're my favourite band and they always will be"
I'm afraid such contradictions as this will always be a feature of fashion and folk music. People love the exciting new thing, but are then often closed minded enough to look no further, To hear one thing and be blown away by it, and then to discount for ever the possibility that someone may come along later and surpass it is sad indeed. But even sadder is to discount the possibility that someone who went before could have been better.
I happen to know of some who came to ITm through the avenue of Liverdance; at least it was that which sparked their interest in Irish traditional culture. It really doesn't matter as long as people don't confuse things or mis-represent things.
Don't get me wrong- I love Lunasa. I just get bemused by the attitude of some who can't be bothered to learn more about the music and who don't really seem to respect it.They just want to be part of something, without having to put in any effort at all.
I understand that traditional music of any sort is a very fluid thing which is constantly changed by outside influences- I just resent some hack who's too lazy to put the time in to learning a style (often a second rate classical player) telling me I can't have a preference for a paticular ethnic style. Irish music is worthy of respect and study in it's own right, and not just some "quaint, degenerate" form of classical music.
If we were playing totally trad we'd be standing at the cross-roads or in the kitchen with no shoes playing melody instruments in unison. No guitars, no bouzoukis, no banjos, and no websites on which to give people a hard time for following their heart's desire.
I really think the difference between the traditional and trad-derived music styles is only relevant when you play with others.
Familiarity with a strong, older traditional canon will make it easier to play with a wider range of other musicians. The tradition is the common starting point. After that it could go the direction of Horslips, Altan, Lunasa, Chieftains, Beoga, or even Flook, all of who add their own mix of musics they have experienced and personal creative touches.
Having said that - in answer to the original query - I believe the modern groups attract more people to quality music, regardless of what pigeonhole they put it into.
And that's a good thing.
I worship no thing.
And I was listening to the dubliners, then planxty long before the bothy band. And nothing would give me greater pleasure than to hear a better band than the bothy band. I may be a cynical twit, but I also carry the dichotomy of being an eternal optimist.
Just a small point, going back to the original posting: you say that the bodhran in Flook is not traditional. I would say it is ENTIRELY traditional. I have heard just about every trick that John Joe uses played by one or other old fella in some session somewhere in Ireland. The difference is I haven't heard ONE player - other than John Joe - who can do them ALL. His playing is phenomenally virtuosic and yet totally idiomatic at the same time. True, if he's playing along with a number which is more 'jazzy', he will adapt, but it doesn't alter his credentials in my mind as a true great in the Irish tradition.
OK, talking about the bodhran. I think virtuoso players on this instrument and, indeed, others *can* be a bad influence because they sometimes encourage lesser mortals to attempt things which are above their ability before they bother to learn the basics.
I'd rather have somebody just playing a basic beat, doing a simple strum etc as long as they were doing it properly than attempting something overly ambitious and being all over the place.
Of course, be inspired by good players and innovation but take things one step at a time. Learn things in a traditional(If you know what I mean) way first.
I got my start in trad from the unlikely source of Steeleye Span's "Below the Salt" in 1976. It piqued my curiosity and started a long musical journey that has included much hard-core ITM. Remarkably along this path, I haven't been tempted to appoint myself as keeper of the tradition or curator of the sainted martyrs of ITM museum.
If it makes you feel better, how about just saying that outfits like Flook, Lunasa and Coolfin (my personal favorite) are JAZZ bands who incorperate Irish tunes? That way, you can appreciate them as GREAT MUSICIANS and that appreciation won't give your ITM credentials any cooties. And this way you can force this arguement onto Jazz boards, where they can gripe about Lunasa NOT BEING JAZZ.
Scotsman > I don't think it's EVER a bad idea for any of us to listen to virtuoso playing, but appropos of your post, the greatest players I know of show their skill by only playing the RIGHT notes and not over-complicating their arrangements. Too many beginners (and many more advanced players) think that merely cramming more notes in a bar = virtuosity.
Traditional is not a fixed standard. It's a protocol, agreed upon by consensus of those trying to communicate about the music they love.
But these new bands like Flook aren't necessarily making records and performing so that people can learn from them. I think that's what attracts people who aren't really into folk music. The more traditional bands don't appeal to people who are into rock or jazz music so much but these more modern bands do because, for example, the rhythms that John Joe and Ed Boyd play are more like rock or jazz beats, not folk. And I think this is good because if non-folkies enjoy Flook then it means they enjoy folk music, because these modern bands are still playing folk music, which can be a good entry to it. I think Flook and Lunasa are quite bad examples of the modern bands that this discussion is referring to because they are all still very much rooted in the tradition but are just trying to make it more interesting.
I started this, and said that I liked Flook and Lunasa, and worship Horslips. I also said that if that is all you have heard, you will struggle at an ordinary session.
I also said John Joe was good, up there with the greats such as....
why is it that every time I creep to an unsuspected position of faint admiration for Mr Bliss, he come out with such a painfully vacuous comment as "I worship Horslips".
To keep you at arms length, Michael, that's why. Horslips was a teenage thing, I grew up listening to the Dubliners, Chieftains and Dylan, could have been worse. I rediscovered Horslips when my son as ateenager "discovered" them.
And there were a few hellish good musicians there.
Neil Martin, an ex-pupil of mine, plays the cello on Irish music, as well as a number of other instruments.
I have had some classical training myself and don't wish to insult anyone for that. Please read my post again. My problem is with some people's condesending attitude towards Irish Trad Music. Classical and Irish trad don't have the same asthetics (sp?).
Each needs to be understoood and appreciated on it's OWN terms.
If you want to mix up a bunch of styles into a big old musical chop suey, go ahead, but don't call it Traditional Irish Music.
An analogy I Iike to use is languages; One would'nt think of mixing up French, English, Italian, Dutch, etc., and saying "I'm speaking 'Indo-European'". On the other hand one can have a variety of dialects in a given language that are still more or less understandable to each other.
Having said that I do think there's plenty of room in the world for all kinds of musical approaches. I think groups such as Lunasa (or in my own case Fairport Convention) can introduce folks to music they might not otherwise have heard- after that I think it's important to dig deeper into the tradition if you really want to get good at any form of ethnic music.
About condesending classical musicians. There is a music professor (he plays Classical Piano) at my school who once trried to tell me that every Minor Irish tune uses a 1/7 chord progression. I absolutly hate that attitude, speaking as one who does actively play backing to irish tunes it is more commmon to use a 1/4 in a minor tune and throw in the 7 when it is appropriate.
It's all been said here so I may be repeating the sentiment:-
1) it's all good - strictly trad and contemporary - and the musicians are top-class (Kevin Crawford, Mike McGoldrick, Seán Smith, etc, etc.);
2) Innovative groups are more likely to attract newer audiences, particularly the young - many playing sessions today would have started listening to the Dubliners, Planxty, the Bothy Band, even Horslips!
3) It also depends on the gig - solo trad musicians will sound great in an intimate situation such as the kitchen, hotel lounge, etc but on a large stage in front of thousands of people, then the high octane group with lots of percussion will be more effective.
Spoon,
More than happy to - my favourite example of cellists playing in trad would be James Scott Skinner (aged 8) playing for a friend's dance band in around 1850. I haven't yet done a great deal of research into this, but it's reasonably safe to say that it was more common in upper class circles due to the expense of the instrument. Nontheless, it's still being used in the accompaniment of reels, strathspeys etc. It was generally used as a rhythmic anchor, playing mostly simplified bass lines.
There's a few decent texts out on the internet, I'll have a look and see if I can find them
Unfortunately, this "you can't really get to the root of the Stones music until you listen to.........." thing only goes so far. Because the person who influenced them was influenced by someone else, who was influenced by someone else........and each of them put their own self into the music, and the music changed along the way.
I heard a quote from a science fiction author once (can't remember who, unfortunately, maybe Spider Robinson), in response to discussions on what period represented the "Golden Age of Science Fiction," when the genre was at its peak. The quote was: "The Golden Age of Science Fiction is Fourteen." In other words, what people fall upon at that impressionable young age is often what they consider "the good stuff" as they grow older. I seem to see some of that same thing happening here with music. There are proponents of the Bothy Band, of Solas, and of Lunasa, and one of the main things they have in common is the fact that the band they select is the one that first got them into this type of music.
The earliest recording of the Cello in Irish music is that of the Old Ireland Quartet with Billy Andrews on the pipes, James Cauley on the Flute and Frank O'Higgins playing the fiddle and the cello making up the foursome. Flogging reel, Star of Munster, lovely stuff.
Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Being a grumpy old man, set in his ways, I don't get to listen to a lot of music from "modern" groups. Today I heard "Flook" and "Lunasa" two groups frequently mentioned on the board.
Lunasa, the bits I heard, are fairly faithful to the genre, but Flook could be described as "jazzed up" Irish music. Wonderful to listen too, but not exactly traditional. Normally I have no problem with people playing around with the music, I still adore Horslips, but as the music speads throughout the world, if your first exposure was Flook, you could start of on the wrong foot.
A simple example. The bodhran in flook, wonderful, but it is not traditional bodhran playing. Doubtless John Joe can adapt if he was at a Ceoltas session, but many who learn solely in this style, cannot. I imagine the same would apply to the flute.
I have touched on this before, and the banjo of Gerry O'Connor, a wonderful player, but he plays in what I refer to as "cajun" style. Many learn the banjo in this style, and discover that the amount of triplets and showy bits would put them out of synch at a ceoltas session.
Perhaps it is best to learn the music first in the traditional style, as doubtless O'Connor, John Joe and McGoldrick did, and then be innovative. Too many nowadays appear to have simply copied the style of these fine musicians from the outset, to the detriment of many a session.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I think this shows us both the upside and downside of "our times". It is much easier to find good recordings of ITM, espescially for those who live far from access to great players, but it is easy for people who don't know any better to end up thinking that groups like this are truly representative of the music as it is played in sessions in Ireland.
This is part of the reason so many sessions here in the States end up a hodgepodge of various styles, combining Irish trad with Old Timey, Bluegrass, Pop, etc. Players in these sessions are often even quite hostile to the idea of playing just Irish Trad in a trad style. I've been accused of being "not inclusive enough", for discouraging other styles (lumped together under the phoney term "Celtic") at my own session here in Denver.
I think it shows an ignorance of and total lack of respect for the music, but that's just old, fussy, "non-inclusive" me.
Don't get the wrong idea though, I'm not losing sleep over it.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Murph
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
The U.S. has a centuries-old tradition of being a melting pot of cultures, so it's not surprising that the concept of sticking to one culture would meet with a certain amount of resistance. The "melting pot" history is one that is drilled into us all through school.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I am fans of Flook and Lunasa, but I know they are not completley trad. The main reasons I say Lunasa aren't pure trad is the use of Double Bass and new tunes. Since I have been going to sessions, I have made the effort to play as a sessioner. Albeit, when I first started going to sessions, I didn't and I realized what tunes I should learn and how I should play. Yes, if you are playing with a couple others who want to mess around and you do to, go for it.
I.E there is a Fiddler who I play with once or twice a week here at school. We are actually scheduled to play for a reception in about a month. Once, while he was playing a Hornpipe and I was playing my Octave Mandolin, I put some jazzier chords and rhythms in. Now, it was fun for the time being, but he didn't want me to play it in the concert, so I said ok I don't have to.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Modern groups like Lunasa and Flook are themselves influenced by ITM. The success of these groups relies on the depth of how they've been influenced and their understanding of it. Also, it will come through in their music. The influence their music has on anyone else is up to those individuals and whether they attempt to just copy it, or first investigate, research and understand the roots of it. Usually the influence inspires musicians to do this -- and that would be good. But if they only attempt to imitate it without bothering to understand it -- that's bad -- for them anyway. The rest of us wouldn't have to stick around and listen to it.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I think the problem arises when people use Flook or Lunasa as the sole influence and never come to grips with the more traditional stuff. Kinda like listening to The Rolling Stones and never being exposed to Son House...
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Farr
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Uh oh... I have no idea who "Son House" is. But the first guitar riff I learned was from "This Will Be the Last Time." (I was a teenager) Many a bad garage band was formed to imitate bands like the Stones. I know because I was in one. But a lot of people have been imitating rock bands and finding loads of fans regardless of their understanding. Even bad Celtic Rock bands manage to find fans... and in large numbers. But those people aren’t fans of ITM... until perhaps they investigate the roots of the "Celtic Rock" and later become fans of ITM. But by then those fans will have lost interest in the "Celtic Rock."
Personally, when I play there are very few "Celtic Rock" fans that would have any interest. And the people who enjoy what I play wouldn't usually be found attending "Celtic Rock" gigs either. The crowd that goes to "Celtic Rock" gigs is much bigger here in the US than the true ITM fan base... but that's just fine with me. I'm not playing this music because of the popularity of it. I just love it.
But the person who started this thread wasn't talking about bad Celtic Rock bands; he's referring to brilliant modern Irish bands like Lunasa. I suppose there will be people who are influenced by them, set out to imitate them -- and even find lots of fans who are unfamiliar with ITM that will enjoy their music. Is this bad or good? It depends on your perspective. If you know nothing about ITM and you hear it, like it, and have a good time -- no harm in that. If you're an ITM aficionado -- you'll probably just stick with the more traditional stuff and/or enjoy the bands like Lunasa that are clearly well rooted in traditional music rather than wasting your time listening to the imitators. In other words -- you'll know the difference. So I guess my answer at the end of the day is that it's all good.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
The first Irish band I ever heard was Lúnasa. They're my favorite band and they always will be, and I know they're not a 100% traditional band, but thanks to them I discovered ITM and started to learn the whistle and the flute. They influenced me greatly.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Pere
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
PB, Son House is one of the first Blues Guitar players. Kind of like the Michael Coleman or Leo Rowsome in the Blues world. I think Farr's point was that someone can't play real Blues by listening to something that was influnced by it, and someone can't play real ITM if they have never listened to it.
# Posted on October 1st 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Hmm, now where have I seen this topic before???? haha...Again...They rock in their own way, but they do know their roots. But if someone shows up at a session having only listened to/imitated Lunasa, that's their problem. If they aren't educated enough about ITM to know what TRADITIONAL sounds like, then they aren't educated enough to be at a session.
Oh America...melting pot is good. But I'm pretty sure that wanting to play IRISH music at an IRISH session is understandable. I listen to a gigantic variety of music, but if I'm at a trad session then I would expect it to be trad...whoever's saying you're not open-minded enough just has problems.
And on Celtic Rock...I dunno...I like Flogging Molly and the Corrs...but their fanbase here in the States would never listen to real trad. Which is why I get mad whenever I see a shirt for them on a "rebel, nonconformist" teenager...
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
There are a lot of interesting ideas here. I enjoy both Altan or Danu , mar shampla, and also older very 'simple' recordings of Seamus Ennis etc on the likes of Seoltai Seidte. I have even grown to like Kila through numerous plays on Raidio na Gaeltachta on my way to work.
I live in Belfast and the 'scene' is really taking off ,again, now. Perhaps there are lessons to learn from those of you in the states who play mixed culture sessions. I recently was at an 'unusual' session that had a fair mix of Ulster and 'Irish' music/song. It was good, you know- full of surprises.
Music (trad) is alive anyway. You could quote Charles Stewart Parnell "No man has a right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation..."
No one can say "you can't play that, it isn't Irish". If they did, you probably couldn't play polkas, reels, hornpipes, barndances...
The point is they were all absorbed into Irish folk tradition. Notably, different areas in Ireland have different local styles AND tunes. Slides and Polkas in Kerry; 'Highlands' strathspeys in Donegal. Proof, I think, of the fluidity of the music and long may it continue.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by richrua
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Although double bass isn't traditional in traditional music (or at least I'm not able to find any use of it traditionally) , a bass instrument is. The cello has existed in trad for many many more years than the guitar, so in my mind, I reckon bass has as much as a place in ITM as DADGAD guitar however, as fewer people play it, it's not as widespread and accepted.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Andy V
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
"They're the first Irish band I ever heard. They're my favourite band and they always will be"
I'm afraid such contradictions as this will always be a feature of fashion and folk music. People love the exciting new thing, but are then often closed minded enough to look no further, To hear one thing and be blown away by it, and then to discount for ever the possibility that someone may come along later and surpass it is sad indeed. But even sadder is to discount the possibility that someone who went before could have been better.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
...says the Bothy Band worshipper?!
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Dow
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I happen to know of some who came to ITm through the avenue of Liverdance; at least it was that which sparked their interest in Irish traditional culture. It really doesn't matter as long as people don't confuse things or mis-represent things.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Donough
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Don't get me wrong- I love Lunasa. I just get bemused by the attitude of some who can't be bothered to learn more about the music and who don't really seem to respect it.They just want to be part of something, without having to put in any effort at all.
I understand that traditional music of any sort is a very fluid thing which is constantly changed by outside influences- I just resent some hack who's too lazy to put the time in to learning a style (often a second rate classical player) telling me I can't have a preference for a paticular ethnic style. Irish music is worthy of respect and study in it's own right, and not just some "quaint, degenerate" form of classical music.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Murph
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
A lot of the best trad musos I know started out playing classical and do not conform to your idiotic stereotype.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Dow
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
If we were playing totally trad we'd be standing at the cross-roads or in the kitchen with no shoes playing melody instruments in unison. No guitars, no bouzoukis, no banjos, and no websites on which to give people a hard time for following their heart's desire.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Ger the Rigger
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I really think the difference between the traditional and trad-derived music styles is only relevant when you play with others.
Familiarity with a strong, older traditional canon will make it easier to play with a wider range of other musicians. The tradition is the common starting point. After that it could go the direction of Horslips, Altan, Lunasa, Chieftains, Beoga, or even Flook, all of who add their own mix of musics they have experienced and personal creative touches.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by RockyRoader
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Having said that - in answer to the original query - I believe the modern groups attract more people to quality music, regardless of what pigeonhole they put it into.
And that's a good thing.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by RockyRoader
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
"says the Bothy Band worshipper?"
I worship no thing.
And I was listening to the dubliners, then planxty long before the bothy band. And nothing would give me greater pleasure than to hear a better band than the bothy band. I may be a cynical twit, but I also carry the dichotomy of being an eternal optimist.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
feck, I forgot to type t w a t
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Just a small point, going back to the original posting: you say that the bodhran in Flook is not traditional. I would say it is ENTIRELY traditional. I have heard just about every trick that John Joe uses played by one or other old fella in some session somewhere in Ireland. The difference is I haven't heard ONE player - other than John Joe - who can do them ALL. His playing is phenomenally virtuosic and yet totally idiomatic at the same time. True, if he's playing along with a number which is more 'jazzy', he will adapt, but it doesn't alter his credentials in my mind as a true great in the Irish tradition.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by benhall.1
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
OK, talking about the bodhran. I think virtuoso players on this instrument and, indeed, others *can* be a bad influence because they sometimes encourage lesser mortals to attempt things which are above their ability before they bother to learn the basics.
I'd rather have somebody just playing a basic beat, doing a simple strum etc as long as they were doing it properly than attempting something overly ambitious and being all over the place.
Of course, be inspired by good players and innovation but take things one step at a time. Learn things in a traditional(If you know what I mean) way first.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Hmmm > Celtic Rock doesn't lead to ITM?
I got my start in trad from the unlikely source of Steeleye Span's "Below the Salt" in 1976. It piqued my curiosity and started a long musical journey that has included much hard-core ITM. Remarkably along this path, I haven't been tempted to appoint myself as keeper of the tradition or curator of the sainted martyrs of ITM museum.
If it makes you feel better, how about just saying that outfits like Flook, Lunasa and Coolfin (my personal favorite) are JAZZ bands who incorperate Irish tunes? That way, you can appreciate them as GREAT MUSICIANS and that appreciation won't give your ITM credentials any cooties. And this way you can force this arguement onto Jazz boards, where they can gripe about Lunasa NOT BEING JAZZ.
Scotsman > I don't think it's EVER a bad idea for any of us to listen to virtuoso playing, but appropos of your post, the greatest players I know of show their skill by only playing the RIGHT notes and not over-complicating their arrangements. Too many beginners (and many more advanced players) think that merely cramming more notes in a bar = virtuosity.
Traditional is not a fixed standard. It's a protocol, agreed upon by consensus of those trying to communicate about the music they love.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by KC Gross
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
But these new bands like Flook aren't necessarily making records and performing so that people can learn from them. I think that's what attracts people who aren't really into folk music. The more traditional bands don't appeal to people who are into rock or jazz music so much but these more modern bands do because, for example, the rhythms that John Joe and Ed Boyd play are more like rock or jazz beats, not folk. And I think this is good because if non-folkies enjoy Flook then it means they enjoy folk music, because these modern bands are still playing folk music, which can be a good entry to it. I think Flook and Lunasa are quite bad examples of the modern bands that this discussion is referring to because they are all still very much rooted in the tradition but are just trying to make it more interesting.
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by djones257
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I started this, and said that I liked Flook and Lunasa, and worship Horslips. I also said that if that is all you have heard, you will struggle at an ordinary session.
I also said John Joe was good, up there with the greats such as....
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
why is it that every time I creep to an unsuspected position of faint admiration for Mr Bliss, he come out with such a painfully vacuous comment as "I worship Horslips".
# Posted on October 2nd 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
"The cello has existed in trad for many many more years than the guitar"
Andy N, can you expand on this? I'm intreagued. The first I ever heard was on Altan's 'Blackwaterside'.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by ragaman
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Worships horse lips... hmmm... does Blissters belong to some cult?
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
To keep you at arms length, Michael, that's why. Horslips was a teenage thing, I grew up listening to the Dubliners, Chieftains and Dylan, could have been worse. I rediscovered Horslips when my son as ateenager "discovered" them.
And there were a few hellish good musicians there.
Neil Martin, an ex-pupil of mine, plays the cello on Irish music, as well as a number of other instruments.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
I have had some classical training myself and don't wish to insult anyone for that. Please read my post again. My problem is with some people's condesending attitude towards Irish Trad Music. Classical and Irish trad don't have the same asthetics (sp?).
Each needs to be understoood and appreciated on it's OWN terms.
If you want to mix up a bunch of styles into a big old musical chop suey, go ahead, but don't call it Traditional Irish Music.
An analogy I Iike to use is languages; One would'nt think of mixing up French, English, Italian, Dutch, etc., and saying "I'm speaking 'Indo-European'". On the other hand one can have a variety of dialects in a given language that are still more or less understandable to each other.
Having said that I do think there's plenty of room in the world for all kinds of musical approaches. I think groups such as Lunasa (or in my own case Fairport Convention) can introduce folks to music they might not otherwise have heard- after that I think it's important to dig deeper into the tradition if you really want to get good at any form of ethnic music.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Murph
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
About condesending classical musicians. There is a music professor (he plays Classical Piano) at my school who once trried to tell me that every Minor Irish tune uses a 1/7 chord progression. I absolutly hate that attitude, speaking as one who does actively play backing to irish tunes it is more commmon to use a 1/4 in a minor tune and throw in the 7 when it is appropriate.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
It's all been said here so I may be repeating the sentiment:-
1) it's all good - strictly trad and contemporary - and the musicians are top-class (Kevin Crawford, Mike McGoldrick, Seán Smith, etc, etc.);
2) Innovative groups are more likely to attract newer audiences, particularly the young - many playing sessions today would have started listening to the Dubliners, Planxty, the Bothy Band, even Horslips!
3) It also depends on the gig - solo trad musicians will sound great in an intimate situation such as the kitchen, hotel lounge, etc but on a large stage in front of thousands of people, then the high octane group with lots of percussion will be more effective.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Bannerman
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Spoon,
More than happy to - my favourite example of cellists playing in trad would be James Scott Skinner (aged 8) playing for a friend's dance band in around 1850. I haven't yet done a great deal of research into this, but it's reasonably safe to say that it was more common in upper class circles due to the expense of the instrument. Nontheless, it's still being used in the accompaniment of reels, strathspeys etc. It was generally used as a rhythmic anchor, playing mostly simplified bass lines.
There's a few decent texts out on the internet, I'll have a look and see if I can find them
Andy
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by Andy V
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
Unfortunately, this "you can't really get to the root of the Stones music until you listen to.........." thing only goes so far. Because the person who influenced them was influenced by someone else, who was influenced by someone else........and each of them put their own self into the music, and the music changed along the way.
I heard a quote from a science fiction author once (can't remember who, unfortunately, maybe Spider Robinson), in response to discussions on what period represented the "Golden Age of Science Fiction," when the genre was at its peak. The quote was: "The Golden Age of Science Fiction is Fourteen." In other words, what people fall upon at that impressionable young age is often what they consider "the good stuff" as they grow older. I seem to see some of that same thing happening here with music. There are proponents of the Bothy Band, of Solas, and of Lunasa, and one of the main things they have in common is the fact that the band they select is the one that first got them into this type of music.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Modern Groups, is the influence good or bad.
The earliest recording of the Cello in Irish music is that of the Old Ireland Quartet with Billy Andrews on the pipes, James Cauley on the Flute and Frank O'Higgins playing the fiddle and the cello making up the foursome. Flogging reel, Star of Munster, lovely stuff.
# Posted on October 3rd 2006 by kilfarboy