I was recently asked to explain myself and couldn't do a very good job. I was having a serious discussion with a music buddy about Irish music played with passion, heart and soul. He wanted to know what exactly made the music sound passionate and I couldn't really pinpoint it. It's something you feel when you listen to the music, but I couldn't put it into words. There are a lot of Irish traditional musicians that invoke certain emotions when I hear their playing but I can't really explain it. Can anyone help me out?
Hm. I think equal parts the feeling the musician has when he's playing and the feeling that the listener adds after it hits his/her ear. Sometimes more of one than the other. But if you've ever had the experience of thinking that a particular musician really played something with extra oomph and feeling and then talked to someone listening to the same thing and having it leave them cold, you probably know what I mean.
We all connect to different things. I'm not sure it's actually possible to explain the whys of passion to anybody outside of your head. As a teenager, I once tried to explain why I liked my boyfriend to my dad. Boy, was that a wash. *snort*
I once saw Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill perform in a little hall just near where I live. Now his playing is passion......wouldn't you agree? Well I thought it was absloutely brillant, especially live. His music infuses you with every emotion all at once and kinda leaves you sitting there in a daze. Well a friend of mine was there as well and when i asled her if she liked it she replied "yeah that was ok". OK!!!!!!!.....just OK. It was bloody brillant, how could she think it was just 'OK'. I thought about it for ages and i came to the conclusion that it wasn't in her blood. It just wasn't her type of music and she couldn't appreciate it. If we'd gone to a classical concert I probably would have been the one who said it was 'ok'. I'm not saying that if you don't play celtic music then you can't appreciate it -of course you can. Anyway I'm getting off the point a bit.
I don't think you can explain what makes a musicsions music sound passionate becasue it's different for everyperson.
In the past few months i've been trying to think of how I can draw the passion and emotions evoked by a muscision - you can't draw it in terms of objects, it's the technique, the tone, the space betweent the black and white, the shading, the pressure of the charcoal - i guess it's the same with music.
Anyway I think i've rambled on for long enough, I hope some of what i just said makes sense to someone!
Liss
Someone once asked Louis Armstrong what swing is. He said: If you have to ask, you'll never know. Maybe the same's true of what makes music passionate.
Intense playing is one of the greatest experiences in all of life for the player and for any listeners who might be around. Aren't we lucky to have music to feel passionate about? It goes beyond interest and emotion...and I have a genuine question. Can one be passionate about mathematics, or accounting...? I have truly intense feelings when trying to balance my checkbook, but it's just not the same as the intense feelings I get when trying to learn a tricky, elusive turn...what is your take on that?
Cassie
Fraser, I agree with you about Martin Hayes. He's a phenomenal musician, his music is absolutely intense and passionate and full of soul, heart, depth or whatever you want to call it, without a trace of affectation or fakery or exaggeration. A couple of others of whom I'd say the same: Tommy Potts, and Ronan Browne. (Of course there are other sublime musicians, who I've never heard - I'm speaking from my own experience. Obviously.)
But - there are people who love the music and live for it, but don't feel that way about Martin Hayes. Plenty don't like him, even. Incredible to you and me, but true, and valid for them!*
Which just goes to show how personal the experience is. There's no arguing with that...
*unless they're just knocking him for the hell of it, which happens...
Believe me when I say that this is not for the sake of it, But don't you think Martin Hayes can be a bit boring sometimes? I heard him play a slow jig once about eight times back to back. Each time through, he played it exactly the same, same decoration and everthing (though he did swell the dynamics a bit). He even bowed almost every note. I nearly fell asleep. (perhaps it was a lullaby)
My day job is accounting and I have absolutely zero passion for that stuff, but it pays the bills.......
A friend just emailed me back to help me with this subject of playing from the heart. He said that playing with passion is about focussing on the music and not focussing on how well you can play it or how much cool ornamentation you can add to it. He also mentioned getting lost in the music and clearing away distractions. This all makes sense. I enjoy hearing how other people feel about this subject.
I'm not sure if other people feel like I play from the heart, but I do love this music and feel very passionate about playing and learning it. It gives me a reason to get out of bed on these cold minus 10 degree mornings.....
Cassie,
Yes, it IS possible to be passionate about mathematics. To create an elegant solution to an interesting problem is a joy not all that different from producing a beautiful rendition of a challenging tune. (OK, I admit, I'm stretching on that analogy, because I haven't yet come very close to achieving the latter!) Aesthetics is a crucial part of pure mathematics. I believe that it's not uncommon for people who are exceptionally gifted in mathematics to have similar gifts in music. (Again, no personal experience in that one!) A boy with whom I went to school was doubly gifted in that way.
Now, as for accounting, that's another matter. I have no idea if anyone gets passionate about accounting. To me, accounting is to mathematics as scrubbing mold off the bathroom ceiling is to painting the Sistine Chapel . . .
Hey - Accounting may not be the most exciting pastime, but scrubbing mold off the bathroom ceiling? That's a little harsh but I gotta admit that I laughed! Just for the record, I do cost accounting for a very fun, extremely hip, snowboard company. I should count my lucky stars I have this job. But I'll never feel passionate about costing boards and preparing budgets....but it's not THAT bad.......I guess we got off the subject a bit....
Michael - I used to find Martin Hayes' playing boring ( i shouldn't be admittin this) untill I saw him live. Now when I listen to his cd it sounds completely different from how it used to ( before I saw him live perform that is. But I can understand people not liking his style - it's an individual thing.
I like the quote by martin Hayes about the 'lonesome touch' (yeah I know, I'm odsessed with him)
"one is forced to put the requirements of music before all personal considerations, to play honestly from the heart with no motive other than the selfless expression of joy and beauty for their own sake"
Don't ask me what it means, but I like it
_
././
The only moments when Martin Hayes loses my attention are those when the jazz or classical influences sneak in, and then it's usually too much happening rather than too little.
I find it very contemplative to hear the tune played unadorned. The nuances are so subtle, and you have to soak yourself into the music more completely. The tune gets to really breathe and the simple relationships within it are clear. You're not depending on ornamentation or variation to add interest - you're literally in the tune itself. Wow, this is starting to sound a bit zen, which it probably is...
And as for passion; people tend to associate that with flashy, firey playing, with lots of emphasis and attack. (Martin Hayes does do that, too - anyone who's seen him live will know that).
But passion can also be understated and tender. You need to be in a more intimate mood with the music to feel it, and personally, I think an unadorned approach can help to acheive that. It's like sex, really... but I think I'll leave it there...
I played two gigs, pretty much back to back, and analysed the recordings of both. The one that flew, with an electric atmosphere in the venue, sounded as flat as a pancake on tape, but the turkey, complete with temper tantrum in the band, sounded fantastic on tape. To summarise, passion didn't transfer to posterity, and lacklustre play sounded really quite good. Funny, innit?
I much prefer Martin Hayes when he plays tenderly. I agree that passion can be confused with fire and attack but has actually nothing to do with that.
I listened to some Martin Hayes last night (and I have seen him play) and I felt that I was perhaps being a little hard on the poor guy. He really is pretty good. I do like the way he lets a tune "breath".
But then I nodded off. So listened to some Alisdair Fraser (the album with him and Tony Macmanus)
I know it's different music, but the two guys are coming at it from the same place. I know that the line between sublime and boring is indeed an extreemly thin one and that different people will draw it in a different place, but there you have it. I drew my line.
I'm only trying to this possition so that people don't dismiss it by saying "Oh if you don't like Martin Hayes, you must not know what you're talking about"
Well, it isn't *compulsory* to like Martin Hayes... I think you've explained your position well, Michael.
I added the proviso to my earlier posting, because I'm fed up with people slagging him off because they think that makes them sound 'in the know'... e.g. 'I've heard they don't rate him too highly round Tulla' and 'apparently, he *used* to be able to play up a storm' - two comments I've heard recently. I generally decline the debate...
Heh, well I've honestly never in my life felt bored, certainly not when listening to Martin Hayes or any other music for that matter (or between the sheets . Life's too short to be boring.
P.S. I don't find that Hayes repeats much as he layers through a tune. When he does replay the same phrase, I think it's intentional--to create a bit of that zone or trance effect--and as a listener I appreciate that once in a while.
Hmm, "that trance thing". Sounds like the reference to house music I mentioned before. I think the trance/zone thing is great when you're playing, either on your own or with others in a session. But I don't think it's a spectator sport. Watching some one in a trance is boring
Ah, Michael, in my humble experience you get out of life what you put into it.
I wasn't talking about watching someone else in a trance, but suggesting that Hayes does it to entrance his listeners. Not permanently, not to numb them, but as a bit of antidote or perhaps "set up" to the continuous surprise you feel upon hearing variation after variation as the musician repeats the tune.
In listening to hordes of trad players over the decades, I've noticed that many of them latch on to a key phrase or juxtaposition of notes and often leave it alone as the "signature phrase" of the tune. Oh, they might do a variation or two, but more likely they land on some personal "pet" way of playing that phrase and stick with it time and again. Other parts of the tune typically see more variations. And I wonder if this is some homage to the original tune, or just personal preference (they happen to like that phrase and don't want to change it), or if it's also a matter of learning so many tunes that there's a certain economy gained by tagging tunes by their signature phrase and leaving it alone rather than spending playing time dreaming up variations on a tune (when they could be working up new tunes).
The sort of food for thought I gnaw on when I should be working.....
I think it is important to learn to play a tune with different variations and ornamentation. It's something that I didn't do too much on the harp, but now that I'm learning fiddle, I see how it's important and really adds to the palatte of colors to chose from. So I'm going back to some tunes on the harp and incorporating different ornaments. I don't want to be boring!
A truly great local fiddle player (a former session leader in Boston) once told me not to worry too much about learning and memorizing different variations. They should really come naturally. Although I'm guilty of going back to different recordings for ideas on how to add new variations and ornaments.
If you are learning variations then they're not really variations, you are writing extra different parts or harmonies to the tune (though nothing wrong with that). The point about variations is their spontinaity. And while we're on the subject of boring music, that's one of the reason I find listening to diddly music on CD dull. I've heard it before
Joyce, your friend is right, it's important that you know that variations and ornaments will come naturally...but remember that this comes as you get better. When one is first starting out, there's nothing wrong at all about learning and memorizing different variations for different bits of tunes and practising using them. After a while they start coming more naturally, on the spur of the moment and as the fancy hits, as you get better at hearing the music in your head and getting it out through the instrument without having planned it all out ahead of time.
I think it was Will once wrote (I'm pretty sure it was somewhere here) that, largely, variations in this music of ours are a matter of one to three notes that make a difference all out of proportion to their time value. That's really worth remembering, too.
The sex analogy didn' t refer only to the 'unadorned approach' but also to the understatement, tenderness, and intimacy I'd mentioned earlier...
I did stuggle to avoid unintentional puns about 'stripping' the tune down to its 'bare' essentials, etc...
Yeah, I've noticed that playing variations spontaneously is getting to be a little bit easier. It really helps to have a nice small intimate group that you play with regularly in addition to the public sessions. I'll hear a cool variation from a buddy one week, then the next week it just pops up in my own playing totally unplanned.
Cuchulain54 - I wasn't actually referring to the sex analogies. My comments on variations were in response to Andee's previous post, but I don't mind discussing that subject either : )
*snicker* Cuch, but you have to watch latex. Lots of people are allergic to it. I used to break out in a rash from latex contact...on the clips of my shoulder rest... heh.
I can't keep up with everyone!!!!! your all too quick. Oh well I blame it on chronic fatigue syndrome, they say it affects your brain (good excuse anyway).
seeing as i started this debate on Martin Hayes i figured id better add something more.
I don't think Hayes repeats that much either. It's always slightly different (Ok now I'm getting pedantic). but honestly your right, Will, if he does repeat himself it's for a purpose - that doesn't mean you have to like it though. of course I think your crazy if you don't but that's allright - i generally think everyone's crazy no matter what. but hey, who wants to be normal. That's way too boring and as Will said life is too short to be bored.
Anyway back to the point. ummmm..what was the point oh yeah...passion. Martin Hayes isn't the only musician who plays with passion.......Alaisdair Fraser, Sharon shannon, Liz Doherty, Sean Smyth, Fiddler's bid (and there are so many more).....they're all just different types of passion. But all musicians share a comman passion for music. Creating music that lives and breathes, making that stubborn foot in the audience tap....that's passion.
For me it comes down to one thing, playing with a bit of fire in the belly, playing as if you mean it. As Hugh MacDiarmid might have described Donegal fiddling:
"Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire
Is the weapon that I desire."
Playing music with passion
Playing music with passion
I was recently asked to explain myself and couldn't do a very good job. I was having a serious discussion with a music buddy about Irish music played with passion, heart and soul. He wanted to know what exactly made the music sound passionate and I couldn't really pinpoint it. It's something you feel when you listen to the music, but I couldn't put it into words. There are a lot of Irish traditional musicians that invoke certain emotions when I hear their playing but I can't really explain it. Can anyone help me out?
Joyce
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
Maybe I should re-phrase my question. What makes a musician's music sound passionate?
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
Hm. I think equal parts the feeling the musician has when he's playing and the feeling that the listener adds after it hits his/her ear. Sometimes more of one than the other. But if you've ever had the experience of thinking that a particular musician really played something with extra oomph and feeling and then talked to someone listening to the same thing and having it leave them cold, you probably know what I mean.
We all connect to different things. I'm not sure it's actually possible to explain the whys of passion to anybody outside of your head. As a teenager, I once tried to explain why I liked my boyfriend to my dad. Boy, was that a wash. *snort*
Zina
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
That's a tough question. Its like asking what makes a painting beautiful. No wonder you had a tough time explaining it to your friend.
-Troy
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by RTP
Re: Playing music with passion
I once saw Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill perform in a little hall just near where I live. Now his playing is passion......wouldn't you agree? Well I thought it was absloutely brillant, especially live. His music infuses you with every emotion all at once and kinda leaves you sitting there in a daze. Well a friend of mine was there as well and when i asled her if she liked it she replied "yeah that was ok". OK!!!!!!!.....just OK. It was bloody brillant, how could she think it was just 'OK'. I thought about it for ages and i came to the conclusion that it wasn't in her blood. It just wasn't her type of music and she couldn't appreciate it. If we'd gone to a classical concert I probably would have been the one who said it was 'ok'. I'm not saying that if you don't play celtic music then you can't appreciate it -of course you can. Anyway I'm getting off the point a bit.
I don't think you can explain what makes a musicsions music sound passionate becasue it's different for everyperson.
In the past few months i've been trying to think of how I can draw the passion and emotions evoked by a muscision - you can't draw it in terms of objects, it's the technique, the tone, the space betweent the black and white, the shading, the pressure of the charcoal - i guess it's the same with music.
Anyway I think i've rambled on for long enough, I hope some of what i just said makes sense to someone!
Liss
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by fiddlefeet
Re: Playing music with passion
What makes a musician's music sound passionate? Crisp triplets.
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by Bloomfield
Re: Playing music with passion
Damn, Man. And here I thought it was an expensive bow and Evah Pirazzi strings.
zls
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
I think it's not noticing the technique.
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
Someone once asked Louis Armstrong what swing is. He said: If you have to ask, you'll never know. Maybe the same's true of what makes music passionate.
Jonathan.
# Posted on December 9th 2002 by Jonathan
Re: Playing music with passion
I say that I play with passion when I am loving what I'm doing. It comes across.
Then again - audiences have told me that I play with a great deal of passion. I have no clue how that happened.
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by Mark Cordova
Re: Playing music with passion
Intense playing is one of the greatest experiences in all of life for the player and for any listeners who might be around. Aren't we lucky to have music to feel passionate about? It goes beyond interest and emotion...and I have a genuine question. Can one be passionate about mathematics, or accounting...? I have truly intense feelings when trying to balance my checkbook, but it's just not the same as the intense feelings I get when trying to learn a tricky, elusive turn...what is your take on that?
Cassie
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by woman of the house
Re: Playing music with passion
Fraser, I agree with you about Martin Hayes. He's a phenomenal musician, his music is absolutely intense and passionate and full of soul, heart, depth or whatever you want to call it, without a trace of affectation or fakery or exaggeration. A couple of others of whom I'd say the same: Tommy Potts, and Ronan Browne. (Of course there are other sublime musicians, who I've never heard - I'm speaking from my own experience. Obviously.)
But - there are people who love the music and live for it, but don't feel that way about Martin Hayes. Plenty don't like him, even. Incredible to you and me, but true, and valid for them!*
Which just goes to show how personal the experience is. There's no arguing with that...
*unless they're just knocking him for the hell of it, which happens...
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by Nell
Re: Playing music with passion
Believe me when I say that this is not for the sake of it, But don't you think Martin Hayes can be a bit boring sometimes? I heard him play a slow jig once about eight times back to back. Each time through, he played it exactly the same, same decoration and everthing (though he did swell the dynamics a bit). He even bowed almost every note. I nearly fell asleep. (perhaps it was a lullaby)
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
My day job is accounting and I have absolutely zero passion for that stuff, but it pays the bills.......
A friend just emailed me back to help me with this subject of playing from the heart. He said that playing with passion is about focussing on the music and not focussing on how well you can play it or how much cool ornamentation you can add to it. He also mentioned getting lost in the music and clearing away distractions. This all makes sense. I enjoy hearing how other people feel about this subject.
I'm not sure if other people feel like I play from the heart, but I do love this music and feel very passionate about playing and learning it. It gives me a reason to get out of bed on these cold minus 10 degree mornings.....
Joyce
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
Cassie,
Yes, it IS possible to be passionate about mathematics. To create an elegant solution to an interesting problem is a joy not all that different from producing a beautiful rendition of a challenging tune. (OK, I admit, I'm stretching on that analogy, because I haven't yet come very close to achieving the latter!) Aesthetics is a crucial part of pure mathematics. I believe that it's not uncommon for people who are exceptionally gifted in mathematics to have similar gifts in music. (Again, no personal experience in that one!) A boy with whom I went to school was doubly gifted in that way.
Now, as for accounting, that's another matter. I have no idea if anyone gets passionate about accounting. To me, accounting is to mathematics as scrubbing mold off the bathroom ceiling is to painting the Sistine Chapel . . .
Sarah
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by x
Re: Playing music with passion
Hey - Accounting may not be the most exciting pastime, but scrubbing mold off the bathroom ceiling? That's a little harsh but I gotta admit that I laughed! Just for the record, I do cost accounting for a very fun, extremely hip, snowboard company. I should count my lucky stars I have this job. But I'll never feel passionate about costing boards and preparing budgets....but it's not THAT bad.......I guess we got off the subject a bit....
Joyce
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
Michael - I used to find Martin Hayes' playing boring ( i shouldn't be admittin this) untill I saw him live. Now when I listen to his cd it sounds completely different from how it used to ( before I saw him live perform that is. But I can understand people not liking his style - it's an individual thing.
I like the quote by martin Hayes about the 'lonesome touch' (yeah I know, I'm odsessed with him)
"one is forced to put the requirements of music before all personal considerations, to play honestly from the heart with no motive other than the selfless expression of joy and beauty for their own sake"
Don't ask me what it means, but I like it
_
././
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by fiddlefeet
Re: Playing music with passion
I'm not really a big fan of martin hayes either but I can see why he appeals to alot of people.
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Playing music with passion
This is not a taste thing. Martin Hayes is boring because he's repetative. Just like house music is boring.
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
The only moments when Martin Hayes loses my attention are those when the jazz or classical influences sneak in, and then it's usually too much happening rather than too little.
I find it very contemplative to hear the tune played unadorned. The nuances are so subtle, and you have to soak yourself into the music more completely. The tune gets to really breathe and the simple relationships within it are clear. You're not depending on ornamentation or variation to add interest - you're literally in the tune itself. Wow, this is starting to sound a bit zen, which it probably is...
And as for passion; people tend to associate that with flashy, firey playing, with lots of emphasis and attack. (Martin Hayes does do that, too - anyone who's seen him live will know that).
But passion can also be understated and tender. You need to be in a more intimate mood with the music to feel it, and personally, I think an unadorned approach can help to acheive that. It's like sex, really... but I think I'll leave it there...
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by Nell
Re: Playing music with passion
I played two gigs, pretty much back to back, and analysed the recordings of both. The one that flew, with an electric atmosphere in the venue, sounded as flat as a pancake on tape, but the turkey, complete with temper tantrum in the band, sounded fantastic on tape. To summarise, passion didn't transfer to posterity, and lacklustre play sounded really quite good. Funny, innit?
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by Skipjack
Re: Playing music with passion
I much prefer Martin Hayes when he plays tenderly. I agree that passion can be confused with fire and attack but has actually nothing to do with that.
I listened to some Martin Hayes last night (and I have seen him play) and I felt that I was perhaps being a little hard on the poor guy. He really is pretty good. I do like the way he lets a tune "breath".
But then I nodded off. So listened to some Alisdair Fraser (the album with him and Tony Macmanus)
I know it's different music, but the two guys are coming at it from the same place. I know that the line between sublime and boring is indeed an extreemly thin one and that different people will draw it in a different place, but there you have it. I drew my line.
I'm only trying to this possition so that people don't dismiss it by saying "Oh if you don't like Martin Hayes, you must not know what you're talking about"
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
Well, it isn't *compulsory* to like Martin Hayes... I think you've explained your position well, Michael.
I added the proviso to my earlier posting, because I'm fed up with people slagging him off because they think that makes them sound 'in the know'... e.g. 'I've heard they don't rate him too highly round Tulla' and 'apparently, he *used* to be able to play up a storm' - two comments I've heard recently. I generally decline the debate...
# Posted on December 10th 2002 by Nell
Re: Playing music with passion
OK, but now tell us about your unadorned approach to sex...
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Playing music with passion
Cuchulain, I think that she meant you never, never see an Irish tune dressed as a French maid.
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by woman of the house
Re: Playing music with passion
Yeah? What about Madame Bonaparte? *grin*
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
Cassie, how are we supposed to make people squirm uncomfortably if we have folks explaining their metaphors for them?
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Playing music with passion
Heh, well I've honestly never in my life felt bored, certainly not when listening to Martin Hayes or any other music for that matter (or between the sheets
. Life's too short to be boring.
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
P.S. I don't find that Hayes repeats much as he layers through a tune. When he does replay the same phrase, I think it's intentional--to create a bit of that zone or trance effect--and as a listener I appreciate that once in a while.
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Playing music with passion
I never thought of that phrase in connection with Hayes's playing, Will -- layering a tune -- nice!
Zina
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
Hmm, "that trance thing". Sounds like the reference to house music I mentioned before. I think the trance/zone thing is great when you're playing, either on your own or with others in a session. But I don't think it's a spectator sport. Watching some one in a trance is boring
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
Ah, Michael, in my humble experience you get out of life what you put into it.
I wasn't talking about watching someone else in a trance, but suggesting that Hayes does it to entrance his listeners. Not permanently, not to numb them, but as a bit of antidote or perhaps "set up" to the continuous surprise you feel upon hearing variation after variation as the musician repeats the tune.
In listening to hordes of trad players over the decades, I've noticed that many of them latch on to a key phrase or juxtaposition of notes and often leave it alone as the "signature phrase" of the tune. Oh, they might do a variation or two, but more likely they land on some personal "pet" way of playing that phrase and stick with it time and again. Other parts of the tune typically see more variations. And I wonder if this is some homage to the original tune, or just personal preference (they happen to like that phrase and don't want to change it), or if it's also a matter of learning so many tunes that there's a certain economy gained by tagging tunes by their signature phrase and leaving it alone rather than spending playing time dreaming up variations on a tune (when they could be working up new tunes).
The sort of food for thought I gnaw on when I should be working.....
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Playing music with passion
I think it is important to learn to play a tune with different variations and ornamentation. It's something that I didn't do too much on the harp, but now that I'm learning fiddle, I see how it's important and really adds to the palatte of colors to chose from. So I'm going back to some tunes on the harp and incorporating different ornaments. I don't want to be boring!
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by Andee
Re: Playing music with passion
A truly great local fiddle player (a former session leader in Boston) once told me not to worry too much about learning and memorizing different variations. They should really come naturally. Although I'm guilty of going back to different recordings for ideas on how to add new variations and ornaments.
Joyce
# Posted on December 11th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
If you are learning variations then they're not really variations, you are writing extra different parts or harmonies to the tune (though nothing wrong with that). The point about variations is their spontinaity. And while we're on the subject of boring music, that's one of the reason I find listening to diddly music on CD dull. I've heard it before
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing music with passion
Joyce, your friend is right, it's important that you know that variations and ornaments will come naturally...but remember that this comes as you get better. When one is first starting out, there's nothing wrong at all about learning and memorizing different variations for different bits of tunes and practising using them. After a while they start coming more naturally, on the spur of the moment and as the fancy hits, as you get better at hearing the music in your head and getting it out through the instrument without having planned it all out ahead of time.
I think it was Will once wrote (I'm pretty sure it was somewhere here) that, largely, variations in this music of ours are a matter of one to three notes that make a difference all out of proportion to their time value. That's really worth remembering, too.
Zina
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
The sex analogy didn' t refer only to the 'unadorned approach' but also to the understatement, tenderness, and intimacy I'd mentioned earlier...
I did stuggle to avoid unintentional puns about 'stripping' the tune down to its 'bare' essentials, etc...
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by Nell
Re: Playing music with passion
Is this a good time to remind our younger members of the importance of practicing safe fiddle music, and only with people whom we care about?
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Playing music with passion
Yeah, I've noticed that playing variations spontaneously is getting to be a little bit easier. It really helps to have a nice small intimate group that you play with regularly in addition to the public sessions. I'll hear a cool variation from a buddy one week, then the next week it just pops up in my own playing totally unplanned.
Joyce
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
Actually, Joyce, I was making a joke about Helen's sex analogy.
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by cuchulain54
P.S.
I think it's time for me to abandon this thread, as my feeble attempts at humor seem to be hitting wide!
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Playing music with passion
Cuchulain54 - I wasn't actually referring to the sex analogies. My comments on variations were in response to Andee's previous post, but I don't mind discussing that subject either : )
Joyce
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by JMH
Re: Playing music with passion
*snicker* Cuch, but you have to watch latex. Lots of people are allergic to it. I used to break out in a rash from latex contact...on the clips of my shoulder rest... heh.
zls
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing music with passion
Yikes, Zina, thank goodness you decided to make that joke about latex and not horse hair!
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: Playing music with passion
I can't keep up with everyone!!!!! your all too quick. Oh well I blame it on chronic fatigue syndrome, they say it affects your brain (good excuse anyway).
seeing as i started this debate on Martin Hayes i figured id better add something more.
I don't think Hayes repeats that much either. It's always slightly different (Ok now I'm getting pedantic). but honestly your right, Will, if he does repeat himself it's for a purpose - that doesn't mean you have to like it though. of course I think your crazy if you don't but that's allright - i generally think everyone's crazy no matter what. but hey, who wants to be normal. That's way too boring and as Will said life is too short to be bored.
Anyway back to the point. ummmm..what was the point oh yeah...passion. Martin Hayes isn't the only musician who plays with passion.......Alaisdair Fraser, Sharon shannon, Liz Doherty, Sean Smyth, Fiddler's bid (and there are so many more).....they're all just different types of passion. But all musicians share a comman passion for music. Creating music that lives and breathes, making that stubborn foot in the audience tap....that's passion.
# Posted on December 12th 2002 by fiddlefeet
Re: Playing music with passion
For me it comes down to one thing, playing with a bit of fire in the belly, playing as if you mean it. As Hugh MacDiarmid might have described Donegal fiddling:
"Scots steel tempered wi' Irish fire
Is the weapon that I desire."
# Posted on December 13th 2002 by Niall L