What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Hello, I have about 900 $$ saved up in credit at a music store and I'm buying a second violin for my son who is an Irish fiddler. First, I am wondering if there is a particular type of violin that is best for Irish fiddling. For example, some violins are made of softer Chinese wood and are warm, some are described as having harder European wood and thus a brighter tone, etc. Is there some aspect of the violins that are traditionally played in Ireland that contributes to their particular sound?
I am thinking of spending anywhere from 800 to 1500 $$. My son currently has an Eastman 305, which he likes quite a bit. The dealer has better Eastmans and also has Snow and Romanian models. As an aside the shop keeper (perhaps because he already has my money) says it doesn't matter what we get because of the style of music. He maintains I could get a 200 $$ violin and it would sound the same with that kind of music. In short we are adrift.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Well, first thing I would do is ignore anything else the shop keeper tells you. He sounds like one of those classical violin snobs who thinks that folk music has no real musical value.
I was recently shopping and almost bought a Snow. It was very well made and had a nice tone. Tried an Eastman as well, which I also liked, but it had more of the "bright classical" sound I didn't want. They seem to vary by instrument---you have to play each one to see how you like the sound of it.
I'm just a beginner, but this was my recent experience---you'll get lots of advice here from people who *really* know what they're talking about!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Your shopkeeper is full of crap!
Either that or maybe there's a misunderstanding. Most people shopping for a fiddle for Irish music tend to try lots and find one that sounds "right" for them! Which means you could indeed end up with a $200 fiddle or, if you're not so lucky, a $2000 fiddle.
Frankly, though, sounds to me like your shopkeeper has no appreciation or understanding of Irish music.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Hello. Firstly, you are looking for an instrument, not for an "art work". You have established your limit (800 to 1500 $); now, you have to go to the dealer and tell him that your son wants to try with every fiddle (or most of the fiddles) between these prices. Your son will try them and he probably will love one of them. As musician, you must know the feeling of have an instrument whose sound make you "fall in love"... and not necessarily expensive.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Oh, yeah, pay attention to the setup on fiddles you're comparing. If one has cheap strings and another has good ones, the second one will probably sound better but not necessarily be better. If the action is too high on one, it might be harder to play, but still might be a good instrument. Use the same bow for every one. It's not an easy process!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Good advice, Kennedy.
I recall buying a bow (finally!) a couple of years ago. I had looked and looked, not finding The One. (And wondering what was wrong with me that I didn't covet any one of several bows I saw in the $1200 range.) After annoying myself thoroughly with my persnickety rejection of bow after bow, I concluded that I'd just know when the right one came along. <Sound of swelling Disney orchestra playing, "Sooooo-mmme day my bow will come..."> And it did. Someone in a fiddle camp class had one for sale. I picked it up, and it just felt right. And it cost a whole lot less than $1200, too.
My point here is that your son needs to find the one that feels right. I don't think there are a lot of shortcuts. You just have to find the right one for you to play. He'll know. Suggest you give him a price range to work with, and let him at them.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Man, I had to kiss a lot of frogs to get to the fiddle I play now. Its a Morelli, German made. and a lot cheaper than the Sofia that sits in my closet. I don't know if my experience is different than other players (I doubt it) but you have to play a while to know what you really want and probably your son is ready to try some out. I'd check with one or two dealers though. Good luck!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
That last comment of mine sounds a bit like one of those flip New Age comments, even though there can be an element of truth in it. What I think is more to the point is not so much the instrument - as long as you keep away from the extremes of permanently unplayable cheap rubbish or a completely unaffordable concert hall instrument - but what the player puts into it, and that is something that takes years to acquire. Very enjoyable years, too.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
lazyhound, I know exactly what you mean. The shop owner laid out a couple dozen fiddles on the carpet in the back room for me to try out. There was one that immediately stood out as exactly what I was looking for.
Our eyes met across a crowded room, kind of. And we have been together ever since. ;>}
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What if there's none in the shop that satisfies ?
Are you tied to this one shop, or can you get a transferable credit note ? I go along with earlier comments that you don't want to have to deal with this moron/snob unless you really have to.
And if it's for your son - age, independence ? - he has to be the one that chooses the instrument, if he's playing it.
I reckon mickray was right too, there is a visual as well as other aspects to choosing an instrument.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
GP maybe you hit the nail on the head; it may be that there is limited choice if the credit is tied to this one music store. This kind of puts the brakes on much of the above advice.
I reckon it doesn't matter what age the kid is. If he's old enough and advanced enough to benefit from a new instrument, then he needs to be the one who chooses it. Obviously within certain financial limits.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
"Our eyes met across a crowded room"--that's a play on words, not meant to be taken literally.
I played them all, one by one--making sure they were all tuned propertly, and using my usual bow--and there was one that sounded better, and felt better, to me than all the others. I had been playing for, oh, a couple of decades at that point, so I knew what I was "looking" for (so to speak).
I'll try to keep any future comments more literal, so nobody misunderstands.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
surely the relationship you have with your instrument is a valid as any relationship? if i'm single and i decide i'm in a good place to 'invest in' a relationship, i leave myself open to meeting the right 'instrument' but i avoid angry looking, new age looking (thats you right out mickray!!), too young looking, too old looking etc. etc. and then when i'm visually stimulated, i'm ready to explore the 'tone, action' etc.
in fact, the longest most successful relationship i've ever had was with my 'darling' fiddle
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What a great concept! Mine was more of an introduction to my fiddle...looks didn't factor into it at all, it was more, "here's this old fiddle, you might not like it, and don't even bother with it unless the sound really knocks you out"...but I knew it was the one I wanted within the first few notes. Kind of like a blind date, actually. The shop owner was my yenta!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
All of the advice that's been given here is pretty good. I suspect, as do several others here, that your shopkeeper is a snob. Don't be surprised, there's a lot of them out there. Lots of classical type people seem to think that if you can play classical music, picking up and <ahem> "fiddle"-style is just a matter of an afternoon's work....
Anywhoo, enough ranting....
You were asking about the aspects that best contribute to the sound.
This is, of course, subjective. For me, I like a bright-sounding fiddle with lots of "ring" and plenty of volume so you have the choice of playing as quietly or loudly as you want. Some people like "darker" sounding fiddles, but that usually leaves me unimpressed ... to my ear, "dark" fiddles usually sound like they're being played with a mute on....
Just as important, to me, is the responsiveness. You shouldn't have to "work" to bring a good sound from the fiddle, it should just be there as soon as bow-hair touches strings.
I've been very lucky with my fiddle; my lovely wife got it for me for a Father's Day gift, several years ago, and she picked it knowing nothing about the sound (she doesn't play). So far, I've compared it to many fiddles, some as expensive as $2,500, and wouldn't give it up for any of them. I did once get to play a $25,000 fiddle and it was incredible ... but there's no $25,0000 fiddle in my future!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
For any kind of music a well-balanced instrument is important but for Irish dance music I think you really need a strong E string. I've said this before: it's easy to find a fiddle with a good bass, but much harder to find one that also has a really good E string. So tell your son not to fall in love with one that has a lovely fat bottom end but is too thin on top. Er...
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Totally agree Mary - you'll notice I I used the adjective "lovely". But all this comparing violins with women is a bit tiresome don't you think? And also bears no relation to reality. I mean I've been with the same violin for 25 years...
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Since the only way to play the fiddle well is to practice practice practice, it's good to really love the instrument you have. I have a 150 yr old fiddle that looks every year of it's age. Its lacquer is ruined, the purfling is hard to make out, it's been cracked and repaired several times, someone had the sound-post sitting too far over near one of the 'f' holes and it's pushed the belly out of whack, and the scroll is poorly carved. Generally, it looks like it's spent a century and a half knocking around in the working-class drinking holes preferred by various family members. But it's a dream to play, it has a story, and it's the only good thing anyone in my family ever got from my old bastard of a grandfather. I love it and I can't wait to pick it up and play every night once my kid's are asleep. And there's the trick: I can't put the thing down, even though it only has value to me.
So I reckon go out and find something that sounds good when properly set-up with fine strings and so on, but don't stop there. Find an instrument that attracts you, that you covet, that you feel pride in, that maybe has a story (or one that you can make a story up about), that makes you feel Irish even if you're not (like a Sicilian forebear of mine who married a Clare woman and took her name...maybe the fiddle was his, after all). Find something that you can't wait to play every day.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Thanks very much for your comments. Yes we are stuck with this shop. Maybe the owner is hoping we will get angry and stomp off and he will be 900 dollars better off. That was very good advice about the E string. Anyway, thanks everybody!
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Finding an instrument that fits you is important, but also the longer you play the instrument the better the instrument gets to sound. As far as Irish fiddling you have to find true Irish musicians to listen to. The ones that learned from their grandfathers not from classical teachers. You might be able to find a great sounding old fiddle in thrift stores.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
I talked to an Irish fiddler who emigrated to the U.S.. He started as a classical violinist, but switched over. We started talking about fiddling and he played my instrument. He remarked that volume was of the most important requirements for a fiddle in an Irish jam. He made an excellent point when he remarked "what value is excellent tone when it can't be heard".
What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Hello, I have about 900 $$ saved up in credit at a music store and I'm buying a second violin for my son who is an Irish fiddler. First, I am wondering if there is a particular type of violin that is best for Irish fiddling. For example, some violins are made of softer Chinese wood and are warm, some are described as having harder European wood and thus a brighter tone, etc. Is there some aspect of the violins that are traditionally played in Ireland that contributes to their particular sound?
I am thinking of spending anywhere from 800 to 1500 $$. My son currently has an Eastman 305, which he likes quite a bit. The dealer has better Eastmans and also has Snow and Romanian models. As an aside the shop keeper (perhaps because he already has my money) says it doesn't matter what we get because of the style of music. He maintains I could get a 200 $$ violin and it would sound the same with that kind of music. In short we are adrift.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Clifardo Albrechto
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Well, first thing I would do is ignore anything else the shop keeper tells you. He sounds like one of those classical violin snobs who thinks that folk music has no real musical value.
I was recently shopping and almost bought a Snow. It was very well made and had a nice tone. Tried an Eastman as well, which I also liked, but it had more of the "bright classical" sound I didn't want. They seem to vary by instrument---you have to play each one to see how you like the sound of it.
I'm just a beginner, but this was my recent experience---you'll get lots of advice here from people who *really* know what they're talking about!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by kennedy
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Your shopkeeper is full of crap!
Either that or maybe there's a misunderstanding. Most people shopping for a fiddle for Irish music tend to try lots and find one that sounds "right" for them! Which means you could indeed end up with a $200 fiddle or, if you're not so lucky, a $2000 fiddle.
Frankly, though, sounds to me like your shopkeeper has no appreciation or understanding of Irish music.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Beat me to it, K!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Hello. Firstly, you are looking for an instrument, not for an "art work". You have established your limit (800 to 1500 $); now, you have to go to the dealer and tell him that your son wants to try with every fiddle (or most of the fiddles) between these prices. Your son will try them and he probably will love one of them. As musician, you must know the feeling of have an instrument whose sound make you "fall in love"... and not necessarily expensive.
Good luck!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Miguel L.
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Oh, yeah, pay attention to the setup on fiddles you're comparing. If one has cheap strings and another has good ones, the second one will probably sound better but not necessarily be better. If the action is too high on one, it might be harder to play, but still might be a good instrument. Use the same bow for every one. It's not an easy process!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by kennedy
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Good advice, Kennedy.
I recall buying a bow (finally!) a couple of years ago. I had looked and looked, not finding The One. (And wondering what was wrong with me that I didn't covet any one of several bows I saw in the $1200 range.) After annoying myself thoroughly with my persnickety rejection of bow after bow, I concluded that I'd just know when the right one came along. <Sound of swelling Disney orchestra playing, "Sooooo-mmme day my bow will come..."> And it did. Someone in a fiddle camp class had one for sale. I picked it up, and it just felt right. And it cost a whole lot less than $1200, too.
My point here is that your son needs to find the one that feels right. I don't think there are a lot of shortcuts. You just have to find the right one for you to play. He'll know. Suggest you give him a price range to work with, and let him at them.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Man, I had to kiss a lot of frogs to get to the fiddle I play now. Its a Morelli, German made. and a lot cheaper than the Sofia that sits in my closet. I don't know if my experience is different than other players (I doubt it) but you have to play a while to know what you really want and probably your son is ready to try some out. I'd check with one or two dealers though. Good luck!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Farr
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Some good advice here, especially, let your son choose.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Search around long enough and the fiddle will find you, not the other way around.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
That last comment of mine sounds a bit like one of those flip New Age comments, even though there can be an element of truth in it. What I think is more to the point is not so much the instrument - as long as you keep away from the extremes of permanently unplayable cheap rubbish or a completely unaffordable concert hall instrument - but what the player puts into it, and that is something that takes years to acquire. Very enjoyable years, too.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
If you search around long enough, you will find the instrument. Not the other way around. The instrument is inanimate.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Farr
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
lazyhound, I know exactly what you mean. The shop owner laid out a couple dozen fiddles on the carpet in the back room for me to try out. There was one that immediately stood out as exactly what I was looking for.
Our eyes met across a crowded room, kind of. And we have been together ever since. ;>}
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by mickray
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
You chose your fiddle because you liked the look of it? Say's it all
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What if there's none in the shop that satisfies ?
Are you tied to this one shop, or can you get a transferable credit note ? I go along with earlier comments that you don't want to have to deal with this moron/snob unless you really have to.
And if it's for your son - age, independence ? - he has to be the one that chooses the instrument, if he's playing it.
I reckon mickray was right too, there is a visual as well as other aspects to choosing an instrument.
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
GP maybe you hit the nail on the head; it may be that there is limited choice if the credit is tied to this one music store. This kind of puts the brakes on much of the above advice.
I reckon it doesn't matter what age the kid is. If he's old enough and advanced enough to benefit from a new instrument, then he needs to be the one who chooses it. Obviously within certain financial limits.
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by Donough
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
"Our eyes met across a crowded room"--that's a play on words, not meant to be taken literally.
I played them all, one by one--making sure they were all tuned propertly, and using my usual bow--and there was one that sounded better, and felt better, to me than all the others. I had been playing for, oh, a couple of decades at that point, so I knew what I was "looking" for (so to speak).
I'll try to keep any future comments more literal, so nobody misunderstands.
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by mickray
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
sorry
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
surely the relationship you have with your instrument is a valid as any relationship? if i'm single and i decide i'm in a good place to 'invest in' a relationship, i leave myself open to meeting the right 'instrument' but i avoid angry looking, new age looking (thats you right out mickray!!), too young looking, too old looking etc. etc. and then when i'm visually stimulated, i'm ready to explore the 'tone, action' etc.
in fact, the longest most successful relationship i've ever had was with my 'darling' fiddle
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by maryp
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
What a great concept! Mine was more of an introduction to my fiddle...looks didn't factor into it at all, it was more, "here's this old fiddle, you might not like it, and don't even bother with it unless the sound really knocks you out"...but I knew it was the one I wanted within the first few notes. Kind of like a blind date, actually. The shop owner was my yenta!
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by kennedy
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
All of the advice that's been given here is pretty good. I suspect, as do several others here, that your shopkeeper is a snob. Don't be surprised, there's a lot of them out there. Lots of classical type people seem to think that if you can play classical music, picking up and <ahem> "fiddle"-style is just a matter of an afternoon's work....
Anywhoo, enough ranting....
You were asking about the aspects that best contribute to the sound.
This is, of course, subjective. For me, I like a bright-sounding fiddle with lots of "ring" and plenty of volume so you have the choice of playing as quietly or loudly as you want. Some people like "darker" sounding fiddles, but that usually leaves me unimpressed ... to my ear, "dark" fiddles usually sound like they're being played with a mute on....
Just as important, to me, is the responsiveness. You shouldn't have to "work" to bring a good sound from the fiddle, it should just be there as soon as bow-hair touches strings.
I've been very lucky with my fiddle; my lovely wife got it for me for a Father's Day gift, several years ago, and she picked it knowing nothing about the sound (she doesn't play). So far, I've compared it to many fiddles, some as expensive as $2,500, and wouldn't give it up for any of them. I did once get to play a $25,000 fiddle and it was incredible ... but there's no $25,0000 fiddle in my future!
What do other fiddlers prefer?
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
For any kind of music a well-balanced instrument is important but for Irish dance music I think you really need a strong E string. I've said this before: it's easy to find a fiddle with a good bass, but much harder to find one that also has a really good E string. So tell your son not to fall in love with one that has a lovely fat bottom end but is too thin on top. Er...
# Posted on September 22nd 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
nothing wrong with fat bottoms steve!!
# Posted on September 23rd 2006 by maryp
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Totally agree Mary - you'll notice I I used the adjective "lovely". But all this comparing violins with women is a bit tiresome don't you think? And also bears no relation to reality. I mean I've been with the same violin for 25 years...
# Posted on September 25th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Since the only way to play the fiddle well is to practice practice practice, it's good to really love the instrument you have. I have a 150 yr old fiddle that looks every year of it's age. Its lacquer is ruined, the purfling is hard to make out, it's been cracked and repaired several times, someone had the sound-post sitting too far over near one of the 'f' holes and it's pushed the belly out of whack, and the scroll is poorly carved. Generally, it looks like it's spent a century and a half knocking around in the working-class drinking holes preferred by various family members. But it's a dream to play, it has a story, and it's the only good thing anyone in my family ever got from my old bastard of a grandfather. I love it and I can't wait to pick it up and play every night once my kid's are asleep. And there's the trick: I can't put the thing down, even though it only has value to me.
So I reckon go out and find something that sounds good when properly set-up with fine strings and so on, but don't stop there. Find an instrument that attracts you, that you covet, that you feel pride in, that maybe has a story (or one that you can make a story up about), that makes you feel Irish even if you're not (like a Sicilian forebear of mine who married a Clare woman and took her name...maybe the fiddle was his, after all). Find something that you can't wait to play every day.
# Posted on September 25th 2006 by Ger the Rigger
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Thanks very much for your comments. Yes we are stuck with this shop. Maybe the owner is hoping we will get angry and stomp off and he will be 900 dollars better off. That was very good advice about the E string. Anyway, thanks everybody!
# Posted on September 27th 2006 by Clifardo Albrechto
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
Finding an instrument that fits you is important, but also the longer you play the instrument the better the instrument gets to sound. As far as Irish fiddling you have to find true Irish musicians to listen to. The ones that learned from their grandfathers not from classical teachers. You might be able to find a great sounding old fiddle in thrift stores.
# Posted on October 21st 2006 by bill mack
Re: What qualities in a violin are best for Irish fiddling?
I talked to an Irish fiddler who emigrated to the U.S.. He started as a classical violinist, but switched over. We started talking about fiddling and he played my instrument. He remarked that volume was of the most important requirements for a fiddle in an Irish jam. He made an excellent point when he remarked "what value is excellent tone when it can't be heard".
# Posted on November 14th 2007 by tupper