Does anyone know why they play everything a half-step above concert pitch? It's annoying! They play so many tunes I love, and when I try to learn Josephin's Waltz, for example, instead of having it be in a nice easy G major, like I've heard it everywhere else, I have to do it in Eb or some screwy key like that. Now, I can appreciate that this is a good exercise for me to learn my fiddle better, but it's going to be a pain if I have to transpose every tune I want to learn from them if I ever want to eventually play it in a session (like, in a few years...)
It happens a lot, fiddlers in particular like to tune up a semitone, they think it makes the sound "brighter".They aren't actually fingering E flat or G sharp.
I don't know about the accordion player, but I bet it's a tuned- up box.
You can always do what I do and get a free program like Audacity ( http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ ) and change the recording to concert pitch. I've done this with a some pipe recordings (Leo Rowsome for example) and with Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh's Turas Go Tir Na NOg to learn their tunes. Works great for me.
A good solution is to copy the awkward track(s) from the cd onto a computer in WAV format, and then use software to lower the pitch without altering the speed. The final step is to burn the amended tracks onto a cd for your own personal and private use (of course!). I use fairly old software to do this - Cool Edit 2000 - which is no longer available but has been replaced, I believe, by Adobe Audition; but there must be other equivalent products out there.
This solution is far better than tuning up a fiddle a half-tone, with all the associated problems of faster string wear (and more frequent breakages), a tighter. less resonant tone, general extra strain on the instrument, and harder work for the player's fingers and bow. If you prefer to go down this route I'd recommend getting a second, cheap, instrument specifically for keeping at the higher pitch. It doesn't do any fiddle and its strings any good if it's always being retuned up and down.
I wonder if some players and bands up the pitch to make it more difficult for others to play along with the music. I don't subscribe to the view that it is to make the sound "brighter", because that is something that can be taken care of by an equaliser in the recording studio or on stage if the player is miked.
I expect, though, that there are instances where the tunable instruments in a band have to fit in with a box playing at a higher pitch.
From what I hear, the strings are all tuned up or capo'd, box has reeds tuned a half step higher, and flute is an Eflat (something that used to be more commonly available, for use with marching bands). So everyone is playing in the normal keys, it just sounds different. I don't think the sound is all that much livelier. And I certainly don't recommend coming to a session tuned like that (unless you want to leave a lot of people out).
Since it is troublesome to learn their tunes by ear, you could always try finding the written notes, and learn from the dots....
But I don't wanna learn from the dots! Seriously, I truly *can't* learn from the dots yet, I can read them but I can't play my fiddle well enough yet to compensate for what's missing on the page.
Playing along with a cd is working for me so far because it's a real-time reminder of how the tune should sound, and it's very easy to tell if I'm missing the rhythm. I will try that Audacity program and see how that works.
Definitely don't want to re-tune my fiddle. I don't want to put extra stress on the bridge or the strings or the setup in general, and I have enough trouble controlling the bow under normal conditions!
And finally, here's another thing that bugs me that Dervish does (they're not the only ones, though)---not listing the proper names of the tunes on the cd. I was listening to Live in Palma this morning and that track "Peata Beag" just fascinated me, but when I looked it up in the tunes section here, it's not the tune they're playing. I know enough about the dots to tell that much. So I don't know what they're playing. Very annoying. I should probably just stick to singing where Dervish is concerned.
It could be a hang over from their early days. As you know they formed out of a regular session in a Sligo pub. You may also know that many top musicians play in awkward keys when in sessions to keep all but the best musicians from joining them.
Just a guess.
I occasionaly enjoy tuning my fiddle up a step, it does make it sound better, in my opinion. I usually save it for camp though, cuz it's def. not good for the instrument..... yeah, i think that's probibly the case, like, what beginner really wants to tune thier fiddle up and every thing esp. if they're only gonna be able to play one tune or somthing...... it's the polite way of saying; um, advanced session here!
I doubt they are doing this to bug anyone. Listening pleasure is their foremost concern; learning from their CDs probably falls near the bottom of the list of priorities.
To be honest you should perservere with transposing; it can be difficult at first but like everything in this game it gets easier with practise. Using shortcuts might be fine in the short term but won't help you improve as a musician.
I say learn to play the tune the way your source plays it. If Tom Morrow is tuned up to Eb, he's still playing out of the usual fingerings for fiddle--e.g., a reel in Ab is fingered as though playing in G. So you can either tune your fiddle up a half step, or use software to bring the pitch down a half step.
Don't waste time learning to play in Eb or Ab--there are no tunes in the tradition actually played with those fingerings.
Similarly, when I learn a tune on my D flute from a Bb flute or F whistle, I figure out what key they're fingering would land me in on the D flute. In other words, when the lads in Lunasa kick off The Last Pint, the first note is made by holding all three fingers of the top hand down. Whatver pitch that is depends on what key your whistle or flute is in. So on my D flute it comes out in Gmaj. If I ever own a Bb flute, I can use the same fingering and it will come out in Ebmaj.
The flat keys such as Eb can be sort of easy for box players.
Although it's perfectly possible to play in any key on any "semitone" box (tuned B/C, C/C#, C#/D or D/D#), the fingering for some keys is a bit tricky.
A B/C box player can do Eb Ab and Bb by using a C/C# box rather than B/C. The relatively logical B/C fingering for the fiddle keys of G D and A yields tunes in the keys of Ab Eb and Bb on the C/C# box.
I'm told that the mis-selling (or perhaps mis-purchasing) of C/C# boxes in Ireland led in some measure to fiddlers developing the habit of tuning up half a tone, to match the accordion's pitch (it's quicker and cheaper to re-tune 4 strings than 42 reeds).
Sharon Shannon seems to play some standard tunes a whole tone above the usual pitch - presumably playing a C#/D box with B/C fingering. Certainly the sound is brighter.
What I do, is memorize the tune in my head and simply figure it out by myself. Dervish plays almost too fast to play along to anyway. Try that and I think you'll find that its easier than you thought and that you retain the tune better.
Almost too fast? I myself would say ENTIRELY TOO FAST! They are awesome musicians, but sometimes I find their pace making me feel a bit jittery, as if I was in a car careening around a winding mountain road.
Because they can and do, of course. But you can slow it down, put it in concert pitch and play along with it any old how with the right technology. That is the beauty of what is available now-a-days. Anyone can play with the greats at your own pace and ability. See the Audacity thread. Really great stuff.
It's quite common to tune the instrument up a semitone, or to play an instrument that is pitched a semitone higher. Many of the older instruments are designed that way.
Noel Hill, DeDa(nn)a(nn), Danu, Dervish, Jesse Smith, Sean Smyth, Oisin MacDiarmada, Tommy Peoples, the Chieftans(*), and dozens of others do it regularly. I'd say it's nearly as common as concert pitch in albums/concerts. It makes the music louder, brighter, adds more "zing", and is quicker to the touch (at the expense of some richness and character in the tone). In short, it's a cheap trick to make you sound better than you are.
It's also reasonably common to have sessions in "E-flat" (instead of "D") as well, although it's usually/often done when the sessioneers want to discourage the "riffraff" from joining them (since many of them would need to be holding a different instrument), but it also can be simply more fun. It's easier, cleaner, louder, and (on the fiddle at least) the music has a little more zing and ring to it. Try it out yourself, you'll see what I mean.
There was a period a few years ago in Boston when we got into the habit of playing in E-flat, mainly because it was loads of fun! Fiddlers just tuned sharp, backers and the banjo player just capo'ed, but some flute players actually went out and purchased E-flat flutes and whistles. Box players were largely out of luck, so we'd make a point of tuning back down if somebody came in with an accordion or such. Still, that was always a drag to have do. Tuning down after playing in E-flat is a bit like that crushing low after a sugar high. It's more work for less clean sound. Eventually we just went back to playing in D normally, and all of our instruments were much happier for it. Besides, taking the easy road spoils you, and I think we were all starting to notice the effects of that spoiling on ourselves.
Similarly, there's a reasonably common practice of tuning down to C, or even B-flat, typically to accomodate a piper with a set in that tuning (check out Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh & Mick O'Brien). That's similarly lovely. As much as tuning up gives you more "zing", tuning down will let the strings vibrate longer, leaving a lovely, relaxed and rolling ring... It sorta makes one think that tuning to D was a poor compromise between the two.
(*) The Chieftans tune about halfway between D and E-flat. I read that they do this because that's the tuning that Paddy Moloney's pipes are in. Not sure if that's the real reason they tune that way, but they certainly do tune up.
I love Peata Beag too...it's actually two tunes. The song part is a traditional mother/child kind of song, referred to as a "dandling" (think of bouncing a baby on your knee while singing). Peata Beag translates to "Little Pet", I believe. The tune is Coppers and Brass, which you can find here.
Pedant mode on.
"Careening" means dragging a ship on to dry land and scraping the barnacles and seaweed of the bottom of the hull.Careering is the correct word.
YOu have Andrews' cd? I want it... i saw him signing it for one girl this summer, actually kindof funny-she was flirting like crazy and he was being all cool and you know, Andrew...
Kennedy, I wouldn't worry about re-tuning your fiddle...a semitone isn't going to hurt it at all. I have a friend who regularly re-tunes her fiddle between GDAE and AEAE and it doesn't do it any harm if you're careful.
Also as Conan said I seriously doubt elitism was on the minds of those bands who tune up to E-flat..as has already been said it can be considered to add an extra brightness to the sound. Anyway if you're playing a gig then no-one's going to be joining in so it doesn't really matter what you tune your instruments to. Whenever I've had the luck to play in a session with any of the Dervish people they've always been tuned back to normal concert pitch.
What's with Dervish tuning?
What's with Dervish tuning?
Does anyone know why they play everything a half-step above concert pitch? It's annoying! They play so many tunes I love, and when I try to learn Josephin's Waltz, for example, instead of having it be in a nice easy G major, like I've heard it everywhere else, I have to do it in Eb or some screwy key like that. Now, I can appreciate that this is a good exercise for me to learn my fiddle better, but it's going to be a pain if I have to transpose every tune I want to learn from them if I ever want to eventually play it in a session (like, in a few years...)
Any thoughts?
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by kennedy
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
You could do what everybody else would do and tune up your fiddle
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by kilfarboy
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
It happens a lot, fiddlers in particular like to tune up a semitone, they think it makes the sound "brighter".They aren't actually fingering E flat or G sharp.
I don't know about the accordion player, but I bet it's a tuned- up box.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
You can always do what I do and get a free program like Audacity ( http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ ) and change the recording to concert pitch. I've done this with a some pipe recordings (Leo Rowsome for example) and with Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh's Turas Go Tir Na NOg to learn their tunes. Works great for me.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by RogueFiddler
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
A good solution is to copy the awkward track(s) from the cd onto a computer in WAV format, and then use software to lower the pitch without altering the speed. The final step is to burn the amended tracks onto a cd for your own personal and private use (of course!). I use fairly old software to do this - Cool Edit 2000 - which is no longer available but has been replaced, I believe, by Adobe Audition; but there must be other equivalent products out there.
This solution is far better than tuning up a fiddle a half-tone, with all the associated problems of faster string wear (and more frequent breakages), a tighter. less resonant tone, general extra strain on the instrument, and harder work for the player's fingers and bow. If you prefer to go down this route I'd recommend getting a second, cheap, instrument specifically for keeping at the higher pitch. It doesn't do any fiddle and its strings any good if it's always being retuned up and down.
I wonder if some players and bands up the pitch to make it more difficult for others to play along with the music. I don't subscribe to the view that it is to make the sound "brighter", because that is something that can be taken care of by an equaliser in the recording studio or on stage if the player is miked.
I expect, though, that there are instances where the tunable instruments in a band have to fit in with a box playing at a higher pitch.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
From what I hear, the strings are all tuned up or capo'd, box has reeds tuned a half step higher, and flute is an Eflat (something that used to be more commonly available, for use with marching bands). So everyone is playing in the normal keys, it just sounds different. I don't think the sound is all that much livelier. And I certainly don't recommend coming to a session tuned like that (unless you want to leave a lot of people out).
Since it is troublesome to learn their tunes by ear, you could always try finding the written notes, and learn from the dots....
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
But I don't wanna learn from the dots! Seriously, I truly *can't* learn from the dots yet, I can read them but I can't play my fiddle well enough yet to compensate for what's missing on the page.
Playing along with a cd is working for me so far because it's a real-time reminder of how the tune should sound, and it's very easy to tell if I'm missing the rhythm. I will try that Audacity program and see how that works.
Definitely don't want to re-tune my fiddle. I don't want to put extra stress on the bridge or the strings or the setup in general, and I have enough trouble controlling the bow under normal conditions!
And finally, here's another thing that bugs me that Dervish does (they're not the only ones, though)---not listing the proper names of the tunes on the cd. I was listening to Live in Palma this morning and that track "Peata Beag" just fascinated me, but when I looked it up in the tunes section here, it's not the tune they're playing. I know enough about the dots to tell that much. So I don't know what they're playing. Very annoying. I should probably just stick to singing where Dervish is concerned.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by kennedy
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
It could be a hang over from their early days. As you know they formed out of a regular session in a Sligo pub. You may also know that many top musicians play in awkward keys when in sessions to keep all but the best musicians from joining them.
Just a guess.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by telboy
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
I occasionaly enjoy tuning my fiddle up a step, it does make it sound better, in my opinion. I usually save it for camp though, cuz it's def. not good for the instrument..... yeah, i think that's probibly the case, like, what beginner really wants to tune thier fiddle up and every thing esp. if they're only gonna be able to play one tune or somthing...... it's the polite way of saying; um, advanced session here!
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by BE
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
I doubt they are doing this to bug anyone. Listening pleasure is their foremost concern; learning from their CDs probably falls near the bottom of the list of priorities.
To be honest you should perservere with transposing; it can be difficult at first but like everything in this game it gets easier with practise. Using shortcuts might be fine in the short term but won't help you improve as a musician.
Good luck
Conán
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
I say learn to play the tune the way your source plays it. If Tom Morrow is tuned up to Eb, he's still playing out of the usual fingerings for fiddle--e.g., a reel in Ab is fingered as though playing in G. So you can either tune your fiddle up a half step, or use software to bring the pitch down a half step.
Don't waste time learning to play in Eb or Ab--there are no tunes in the tradition actually played with those fingerings.
Similarly, when I learn a tune on my D flute from a Bb flute or F whistle, I figure out what key they're fingering would land me in on the D flute. In other words, when the lads in Lunasa kick off The Last Pint, the first note is made by holding all three fingers of the top hand down. Whatver pitch that is depends on what key your whistle or flute is in. So on my D flute it comes out in Gmaj. If I ever own a Bb flute, I can use the same fingering and it will come out in Ebmaj.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
The flat keys such as Eb can be sort of easy for box players.
Although it's perfectly possible to play in any key on any "semitone" box (tuned B/C, C/C#, C#/D or D/D#), the fingering for some keys is a bit tricky.
A B/C box player can do Eb Ab and Bb by using a C/C# box rather than B/C. The relatively logical B/C fingering for the fiddle keys of G D and A yields tunes in the keys of Ab Eb and Bb on the C/C# box.
I'm told that the mis-selling (or perhaps mis-purchasing) of C/C# boxes in Ireland led in some measure to fiddlers developing the habit of tuning up half a tone, to match the accordion's pitch (it's quicker and cheaper to re-tune 4 strings than 42 reeds).
Sharon Shannon seems to play some standard tunes a whole tone above the usual pitch - presumably playing a C#/D box with B/C fingering. Certainly the sound is brighter.
MYBC
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
What I do, is memorize the tune in my head and simply figure it out by myself. Dervish plays almost too fast to play along to anyway. Try that and I think you'll find that its easier than you thought and that you retain the tune better.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Farr
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Almost too fast? I myself would say ENTIRELY TOO FAST! They are awesome musicians, but sometimes I find their pace making me feel a bit jittery, as if I was in a car careening around a winding mountain road.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Solas makes me feel that way. Just off the meter. I mean, I do play pretty fast, but why would you wanna play That Fast?
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Farr
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Because they can and do, of course. But you can slow it down, put it in concert pitch and play along with it any old how with the right technology. That is the beauty of what is available now-a-days. Anyone can play with the greats at your own pace and ability. See the Audacity thread. Really great stuff.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
It's quite common to tune the instrument up a semitone, or to play an instrument that is pitched a semitone higher. Many of the older instruments are designed that way.
Noel Hill, DeDa(nn)a(nn), Danu, Dervish, Jesse Smith, Sean Smyth, Oisin MacDiarmada, Tommy Peoples, the Chieftans(*), and dozens of others do it regularly. I'd say it's nearly as common as concert pitch in albums/concerts. It makes the music louder, brighter, adds more "zing", and is quicker to the touch (at the expense of some richness and character in the tone). In short, it's a cheap trick to make you sound better than you are.
It's also reasonably common to have sessions in "E-flat" (instead of "D") as well, although it's usually/often done when the sessioneers want to discourage the "riffraff" from joining them (since many of them would need to be holding a different instrument), but it also can be simply more fun. It's easier, cleaner, louder, and (on the fiddle at least) the music has a little more zing and ring to it. Try it out yourself, you'll see what I mean.
There was a period a few years ago in Boston when we got into the habit of playing in E-flat, mainly because it was loads of fun! Fiddlers just tuned sharp, backers and the banjo player just capo'ed, but some flute players actually went out and purchased E-flat flutes and whistles. Box players were largely out of luck, so we'd make a point of tuning back down if somebody came in with an accordion or such. Still, that was always a drag to have do. Tuning down after playing in E-flat is a bit like that crushing low after a sugar high. It's more work for less clean sound. Eventually we just went back to playing in D normally, and all of our instruments were much happier for it. Besides, taking the easy road spoils you, and I think we were all starting to notice the effects of that spoiling on ourselves.
Anyway, there's some history in playing in E-flat. Noel Hill mentions it in an interview here: http://www.celticmusic.com/magazine/interviews/noel_hill/noel_hill_interview.shtml
Similarly, there's a reasonably common practice of tuning down to C, or even B-flat, typically to accomodate a piper with a set in that tuning (check out Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh & Mick O'Brien). That's similarly lovely. As much as tuning up gives you more "zing", tuning down will let the strings vibrate longer, leaving a lovely, relaxed and rolling ring... It sorta makes one think that tuning to D was a poor compromise between the two.
(*) The Chieftans tune about halfway between D and E-flat. I read that they do this because that's the tuning that Paddy Moloney's pipes are in. Not sure if that's the real reason they tune that way, but they certainly do tune up.
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Georgi
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
I just played along to a couple of Chief's cd's and they were in concert pitch ( or I need a new tuner... )
# Posted on September 20th 2006 by Farr
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Andrew Magill plays Josephin's waltz on his CD Drive and Lift, and it's nice if you want a complete alternative
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by possumawesome
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
I love Peata Beag too...it's actually two tunes. The song part is a traditional mother/child kind of song, referred to as a "dandling" (think of bouncing a baby on your knee while singing). Peata Beag translates to "Little Pet", I believe. The tune is Coppers and Brass, which you can find here.
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by ketida
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
"it's usually/often done when the sessioneers want to discourage the "riffraff" from joining them"
There's a lot of E flat shakey eggs, lagerphones, bodhrans and spoons about...
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Pedant mode on.
"Careening" means dragging a ship on to dry land and scraping the barnacles and seaweed of the bottom of the hull.Careering is the correct word.
# Posted on September 21st 2006 by dafydd
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
YOu have Andrews' cd? I want it... i saw him signing it for one girl this summer, actually kindof funny-she was flirting like crazy and he was being all cool and you know, Andrew...
# Posted on September 22nd 2006 by BE
Re: What's with Dervish tuning?
Kennedy, I wouldn't worry about re-tuning your fiddle...a semitone isn't going to hurt it at all. I have a friend who regularly re-tunes her fiddle between GDAE and AEAE and it doesn't do it any harm if you're careful.
Also as Conan said I seriously doubt elitism was on the minds of those bands who tune up to E-flat..as has already been said it can be considered to add an extra brightness to the sound. Anyway if you're playing a gig then no-one's going to be joining in so it doesn't really matter what you tune your instruments to. Whenever I've had the luck to play in a session with any of the Dervish people they've always been tuned back to normal concert pitch.
Good luck with it
Lizzy
# Posted on September 23rd 2006 by Lizzy