So I've finally bitten the bullet after a couple of years of fettling my flute and polishing my whistles in the confines of my own home I'm venturing out into the world of regular sessions. And I love it. It turns out that most of the tunes I know are not known in my local session, and vice versa, so great opportunities for swapping tunes etc. However... as a flute/whistle player, how do I go about indicating a change is approaching or the end is nigh? It's OK if everyone else has a reasonable grasp of the tune so I can stop playing briefly, but if they're still struggling to pick up the tune then I'll leave a gaping hole with my 'change' or 'hup'
So what's your favourite solution to this flute players dilemma?
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Raise your foot for a second is common in my area...but it helps to discuss your signal in advance so the other players just don't think you have tourette's or another tick type of disorder.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Several people in our session tend to nod their heads and raise their feet roughly once per beat. Only roughly, but certainly more regularly than I'd like to change tunes But the idea of some other kind of signal is obviously a good one - maybe a big wave of the flute?
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
I always find it very entertaining observing the different signals given by various musicians when there's a change coming - although it's normally pretty obvious, without any sort of signals at all. There's the flash of the eyes, or the raising of eyebrows, the raising of the end of the flute, the nod of the head, and even the kick in the shin (Kirsten!). I've yet to see someone do them all at once - now that'd be fun...
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Seriously though, surely everyone is going to be listening for a change after the tunes gone round 3 times. if you don't change then, they will pick it up again pretty swiftish, and if you do, they'll be listening to hear what the next tune is. Any sort of eye-contact you make with whoever the most domninant player/accompaniest is is likely to be interpreted as an indication you are about to do SOMETHING.
Or try arranging the set beforehand - maybe utilising Jack's 'Snippet' method (See: The Snippet Method, described on too many threads on this board already )
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
My SO raises a foot, but this is already in use as an "end of the set" signal, just to confuse.
When in a band, lean the end of your instrument towards the next tune on the manuscript.
I reckon the penultimate, or the antpenultimate bar ( 6 or 7, in the B part ) are the least important, so you could shout "Change" and draw breath at that point.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
As many good musicians still play with their heads down, I signal new tune or end by slightly changing the last B part or putting some emphasis into the last bar.
It is often wasted on musicians who don;t listen and are in their own little world - they wouldn't notice if you kicked them.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
When you´re getting near the end of a set that you´ve started, how do you indicate "I haven´t a clue what to play next - how about you ?"
If you´ve started the set, people will look at you for the next tune. I usually get by with a shrug of my shoulders and a quizzical look on my face. At least to me it´s quizzical, to others it might look as if I´m fighting indigestion.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
What wormdiet said, but of course people have to be looking for it or it doesn't work.
Reminds me of my first time playing for dancers - we were all watching the leader intently, and when she indicated the end of the set we all stopped obediently, and in perfect order...the only problem being we'd only played the B part once through the last time, and the dancers were left stranded.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
This is good stuff. I'll try the foot up approach if my feet are visible, or the 'raise foot and hit table knocking glasses over' approach if it's crowded. One way or another they'll get it
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
In my nik of the woods its all in the eyes! Ill often look up when coming to the end of a tune to find my flute playing friend staring at me, eyes bulging, trying to get my attention! I think the look , hup and nod are the most common hints used worldwide!
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
So basically some kind of small fit is called for.
To answer Ottery's 'serious' points, the problem at this session seems to be that although three is the magic number, we seem to go round more times if people are starting to get the hang of a new tune, less if no-one is joining in.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Ah yes, Ottery, this is a good case for the 'snippet method' indeed. Although many people are resistant to it for a variety of reasons, I've seen it easily solve this dilemma many times. Sometimes I'll be suggesting my tune medley to the gang using the snippet method and someone will whine, "Just play the tune, JACK!" And I'll ask them for a suggestion on calling out the next tune (like they do) while playing the flute. They just shrug with righteous indignation.
Now-a-days people are becoming more familiar with the snippet method in our circle and many have adapted it as their own MO for suggesting tunes. So these days when I do it I’m met with less or no resistance. The snippet method has simply become an option. There are times when I also opt out of using it when starting a tune, and if I’m playing flute I simply look around at the other players as we’re beginning the last pass through the last part of the tune. Those that are paying attention realize that I have a tune to follow the one I started and they stop and listen until they figure out what it is… and they come back in. If I don’t have a tune to follow I will shrug and give a slight nod towards another player, and it seems to be universally accepted as a way of ‘passing the torch.’
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
We usually play each tune in a set 3 times, and call 'change' to change (playing fiddle rather than flute allows me this luxury!)
Just a couple of questions -
what do you tend to call if you want to go for a 4th time through (or more!) ?
What do you usually call if you want to up the pace or slow it down?
And finally what do you tend to use to indicate the end of the set? (I tend to use 'out')
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
As one who can talk and play, I will sometimes ask the person next to me "Have you a jig to follow?". Many people nod, but don't start the next tune. Moral - many people can't listen and play at the same time.
I decided that the most obvious invitation for someone else to start a tune is to stop playing and pick up my pint. Unfortunately, it can result in more than one person starting the next tune.
To be honest, it annoys me when people shout out "change" especially when it is very obvious they are going to change tune (e.g. they only know 3 tunes). I would be instantly aware that they had changed tune or key so I usually reply "I know".
Apochryphal tale - Fiddler shouts out "D minor", drummer shouts "Eh?", band dissapears off in two different keys.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Jack hits the nail on the head when he mentions 'Those that are paying attention'. If players really ARE paying attention, and they should be, then it becomes obvious if you're going to change to a different tune, or if you want to go through the same one again. Someone shouting "Change!" or "Hup!" at the end of each tune in a set soon gets bloody irritating ....
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
I know what geoff means about not being able to listen to conversation and play at the same time. I used to lose my place in the music if I tried to signal another tune--not good at multi-tasking, I guess. But at some point, I realized I could, and I am not sure how I gained that ability. I can also accompany myself (simply) on guitar while I sing now, something that eluded me in younger days.
Who says old dogs can't learn new tricks!
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Even though it's pretty much universal that people play tunes 3 times threw on 32 bar (or greater) tunes, and around 5 times threw on 16 bar tunes. I personally like to go more times on tunes I like. People in my circle know about this predilection and wait for me to look around at them before we make the change. If people don't seem to be paying attention I've been known to stop during the last part of the tune and call out "one more," (if I'm on flute,) but I prefer to just have everyone keeping in eye contact with each other.
What bugs me is people, who when leading tunes, never look up but make the change anyway without any indication. That's the train wreck approach.
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
after three times through (or two for a four parter) we just listen for the next tune if we don't recognise the set. A fiddler or box player might name the key coming up, but then they might not. Seems to work well enough for us.
Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
So I've finally bitten the bullet after a couple of years of fettling my flute and polishing my whistles in the confines of my own home I'm venturing out into the world of regular sessions. And I love it. It turns out that most of the tunes I know are not known in my local session, and vice versa, so great opportunities for swapping tunes etc. However... as a flute/whistle player, how do I go about indicating a change is approaching or the end is nigh? It's OK if everyone else has a reasonable grasp of the tune so I can stop playing briefly, but if they're still struggling to pick up the tune then I'll leave a gaping hole with my 'change' or 'hup'
So what's your favourite solution to this flute players dilemma?
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
And I really should spell look more carefully over the title before presing submit
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
nod yer ed
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by gedpipes
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Raise your foot for a second is common in my area...but it helps to discuss your signal in advance so the other players just don't think you have tourette's or another tick type of disorder.
Eric
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Jayhawk
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Kick whoever's beside you, and get them to hup!
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by nnicharra
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Several people in our session tend to nod their heads and raise their feet roughly once per beat. Only roughly, but certainly more regularly than I'd like to change tunes
But the idea of some other kind of signal is obviously a good one - maybe a big wave of the flute?
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Look around frantically with raised eyebrows.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by RockyRoader
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Unfortunately that signal would be indistinguishable from my normal 'arrggh I've set off too quick, am I gonna make it to the end?' expression
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Wink at the prettiest girl in the session - it might lead to something more interesting than the next tune ...
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
I always find it very entertaining observing the different signals given by various musicians when there's a change coming - although it's normally pretty obvious, without any sort of signals at all. There's the flash of the eyes, or the raising of eyebrows, the raising of the end of the flute, the nod of the head, and even the kick in the shin (Kirsten!). I've yet to see someone do them all at once - now that'd be fun...
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Ron P
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Seriously though, surely everyone is going to be listening for a change after the tunes gone round 3 times. if you don't change then, they will pick it up again pretty swiftish, and if you do, they'll be listening to hear what the next tune is. Any sort of eye-contact you make with whoever the most domninant player/accompaniest is is likely to be interpreted as an indication you are about to do SOMETHING.
)
Or try arranging the set beforehand - maybe utilising Jack's 'Snippet' method (See: The Snippet Method, described on too many threads on this board already
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
My SO raises a foot, but this is already in use as an "end of the set" signal, just to confuse.
When in a band, lean the end of your instrument towards the next tune on the manuscript.
I reckon the penultimate, or the antpenultimate bar ( 6 or 7, in the B part ) are the least important, so you could shout "Change" and draw breath at that point.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
As many good musicians still play with their heads down, I signal new tune or end by slightly changing the last B part or putting some emphasis into the last bar.
It is often wasted on musicians who don;t listen and are in their own little world - they wouldn't notice if you kicked them.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
When you´re getting near the end of a set that you´ve started, how do you indicate "I haven´t a clue what to play next - how about you ?"
If you´ve started the set, people will look at you for the next tune. I usually get by with a shrug of my shoulders and a quizzical look on my face. At least to me it´s quizzical, to others it might look as if I´m fighting indigestion.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by murfbox
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Foot-up method is the convention around here.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
With people I don't normally play with, a raised foot. With the regulars, we just look at each other and nod.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
What wormdiet said, but of course people have to be looking for it or it doesn't work.
Reminds me of my first time playing for dancers - we were all watching the leader intently, and when she indicated the end of the set we all stopped obediently, and in perfect order...the only problem being we'd only played the B part once through the last time, and the dancers were left stranded.
Our band is thus named 8 Bars Short.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Martin Milner
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
This is good stuff. I'll try the foot up approach if my feet are visible, or the 'raise foot and hit table knocking glasses over' approach if it's crowded. One way or another they'll get it
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
In my nik of the woods its all in the eyes! Ill often look up when coming to the end of a tune to find my flute playing friend staring at me, eyes bulging, trying to get my attention! I think the look , hup and nod are the most common hints used worldwide!
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by galway-fiddle
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
So basically some kind of small fit is called for.
To answer Ottery's 'serious' points, the problem at this session seems to be that although three is the magic number, we seem to go round more times if people are starting to get the hang of a new tune, less if no-one is joining in.
I've got a few things to try/suggest now anyway!
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by NeilC
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Ah yes, Ottery, this is a good case for the 'snippet method' indeed. Although many people are resistant to it for a variety of reasons, I've seen it easily solve this dilemma many times. Sometimes I'll be suggesting my tune medley to the gang using the snippet method and someone will whine, "Just play the tune, JACK!" And I'll ask them for a suggestion on calling out the next tune (like they do) while playing the flute. They just shrug with righteous indignation.
Now-a-days people are becoming more familiar with the snippet method in our circle and many have adapted it as their own MO for suggesting tunes. So these days when I do it I’m met with less or no resistance. The snippet method has simply become an option. There are times when I also opt out of using it when starting a tune, and if I’m playing flute I simply look around at the other players as we’re beginning the last pass through the last part of the tune. Those that are paying attention realize that I have a tune to follow the one I started and they stop and listen until they figure out what it is… and they come back in. If I don’t have a tune to follow I will shrug and give a slight nod towards another player, and it seems to be universally accepted as a way of ‘passing the torch.’
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Nobody can tell when a flute changes tunes anyway so I wouldn't worry
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Bren
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
We usually play each tune in a set 3 times, and call 'change' to change (playing fiddle rather than flute allows me this luxury!)
Just a couple of questions -
what do you tend to call if you want to go for a 4th time through (or more!) ?
What do you usually call if you want to up the pace or slow it down?
And finally what do you tend to use to indicate the end of the set? (I tend to use 'out')
# Posted on September 13th 2006 by domnull
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
As one who can talk and play, I will sometimes ask the person next to me "Have you a jig to follow?". Many people nod, but don't start the next tune. Moral - many people can't listen and play at the same time.
I decided that the most obvious invitation for someone else to start a tune is to stop playing and pick up my pint. Unfortunately, it can result in more than one person starting the next tune.
To be honest, it annoys me when people shout out "change" especially when it is very obvious they are going to change tune (e.g. they only know 3 tunes). I would be instantly aware that they had changed tune or key so I usually reply "I know".
Apochryphal tale - Fiddler shouts out "D minor", drummer shouts "Eh?", band dissapears off in two different keys.
# Posted on September 13th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Jack hits the nail on the head when he mentions 'Those that are paying attention'. If players really ARE paying attention, and they should be, then it becomes obvious if you're going to change to a different tune, or if you want to go through the same one again. Someone shouting "Change!" or "Hup!" at the end of each tune in a set soon gets bloody irritating ....
# Posted on September 13th 2006 by Ottery
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
I know what geoff means about not being able to listen to conversation and play at the same time. I used to lose my place in the music if I tried to signal another tune--not good at multi-tasking, I guess. But at some point, I realized I could, and I am not sure how I gained that ability. I can also accompany myself (simply) on guitar while I sing now, something that eluded me in younger days.
Who says old dogs can't learn new tricks!
# Posted on September 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
Even though it's pretty much universal that people play tunes 3 times threw on 32 bar (or greater) tunes, and around 5 times threw on 16 bar tunes. I personally like to go more times on tunes I like. People in my circle know about this predilection and wait for me to look around at them before we make the change. If people don't seem to be paying attention I've been known to stop during the last part of the tune and call out "one more," (if I'm on flute,) but I prefer to just have everyone keeping in eye contact with each other.
What bugs me is people, who when leading tunes, never look up but make the change anyway without any indication. That's the train wreck approach.
# Posted on September 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Inidicating 'change' with a mouth full of flute
after three times through (or two for a four parter) we just listen for the next tune if we don't recognise the set. A fiddler or box player might name the key coming up, but then they might not. Seems to work well enough for us.
# Posted on September 14th 2006 by mehere