I'm thinking of writing a webbased program for "realtime" editing of abc. As such, I get to write the whole layout engine. I won't be getting to a library with books on engraving for a while, so at the moment, I'm stuck with the Music Publisher's Association's "Standard music notation practice".
I don't particularly like the sheetmusic produced here (not that it matters); but I like to do things right, so I was wondering what you guys' preferences are: most notably, in terms of spacing and of beam placement.
should the jig bars
| DEF DEF | and | D2 E F3 | be of the same length? I'm thinking of making the second slightly shorter (so that there is more spacing after a quarter than an eighth, but not proportionally so)
when should beams go up, when should they go down and when should they stay flat? Taking simple jig examples: I think of the beginning of connaughtman's rambles as having a pedal note, so for FAA dAA, my preference would be for straight beams - but most programs give them as ascending and descending respectively. And what about longer beams, covering say 4 notes? What should determine whether they go up or down? In sheet music I have for cooley's, for example, the introductory EBBA has a horizontal beam (in 3 versions), but other places have a slope where a horizontal would be nicer (thinking of pedals again).
Lastly, stem height under or over beams... I don't find short stems very nice. Stems are usually an octave in height. Should I fix it to make the average as close as possible to one octave? or so that the minimum is about one octave? Maybe beam slant should reflect this aesthetic?
My main reason for doing this is that I want something for quickly writing out scores to give to people (assuming they know the music of course), and for transposing a number of tunes (particularly breton) which aren't written in a whistle-friendly key - sight-reading isn't a skill I'm particularly interested in perfecting, so I can read something with one or two sharps but that's it.
Does anyone else have any particular wishes?
(before I disappoint anyone, it will almost certainly only work in firefox 1.5 and greater - this is because it will use html+svg+javascript, which together enable almost same possibilities as flash - but with open and free standards - it should be easy and permissible for anyone to modify it - GPL.)
Well, Greg, I think you (and I) are probably about to come in for a few digs....
I know a lot about writing manuscript, but nothing about doing it on a computer. To me, one of the most useful things with Irish music, is that you reflect the structure of the music in how many bars per line you have. So for most jigs and reels that would be either 4 or 8 bars per line. I find that 4 per line works well with reels, especially if they are made up of mostly eigth notes. However with jigs, and a lot of polkas, this leaves the notes too strung out over the line, so I usually opt for putting these on three lines, with the repeat sign somewhere in the middle of the 2nd line. Eight bars per line is a bit cramped.
I do think the question of straight or sloping beams is a bit of an aesthetic one. when I write tunes out - which I do all the time, I draw the stem for the first and last notes of the beamed group (an octave long, as you say) then beam from these two points, adding the stems of the inner notes afterward. This works most of the time, but occasionally would look odd when I adjust it by "eye".
Good sight readers, like orchestral players, especially those who are used to reading mainly from traditionally printed music, do recognise notes partly by where the stem ends - especially when they are on ledger lines. They can get really confused when reading stuff that is oddly written out. Traditional musicians who do read are usually more flexible as they are used to reading more hand written stuff.
Have you looked at Sibelius music publihing software? Their programme is pretty much the industry standard and is used in preference to all other notation progs, because of its clarity.
They have addressed all the questions you've posed regarding note spacings and beamings etc. So to answer your question about preferences, try and make yours look like theirs or integrate their programme with your idea if possible!
If you don't know about them you can find them at www.sibelius.com
Are you aware there are already programs out there that do this (although admittedly not web based)? I've been playing with a couple recently so I can format tunes for a beginners' session and print and distribute them as required.
If you're still going ahead with the project there are a few things I've picked up - I wrote an ABC to stave translator in Visual Basic when I was first learning the box, which also let me change the notes and record the fingering I'd decided on (as well as printing out keyboard maps in 'cheat' mode). Spacing of notes is always problematic - the best solution I've found is to give the user the option; position based on length of note or position based on 'engraving' rules. Beginners prefer the first option, experienced the latter IMHO. Even better is to let the user define the settings, which is easy with an .ini file in VB, but needs a bit more of an interface for web images (I suspect there will be subtle-enough-to-be-annoying differences between IE & Firefox for example).
Another issue I found was the lowest and highest notes achievable - I was basing mine on the BC box, but decided to expand it's capabilities to the whole range of ABC so I could modify the program for other instruments as required (e.g. whistle!). The printed area gets quite large if you allow for all possibilities. It needs a bit of careful thought when triplets with a big jump in them are required (e.g. Morrison's jig). Kris's comments about sight readers are very true - I found I could sight read my own output easily, and I was doing it almost out of the corner of my eye.
I allowed the user to define which points in the score were the end of a printed row - it makes for much clearer delineation of 'A' and 'B' parts. I did get some issues with Microsoft's (I know, you'll be shocked to hear it) lack of standards between displayed and printed text; there was a lot of toing and froing until I hit a happy medium which gave me a reasonable WYSIWYG interface.
Having said that, I was pleased with the output I managed and still use some of the printouts today. Best of luck with the project - I'd love to try the beta release...
I agree with Fred, I have Sibelius 3, and never cease to wonder at its capabilities.
However,Good luck Greg in your endeavours and if you can improve on Sibelius programmes, you deserve to make yourself a million!
Fred: thanks. Lilypond claim that they produce the nicest sheetmusic - they specifically set out to be better than sibelius and finale - I don't know to what extent they succeed. They are also opensource - I've tried to figure out what algorithm they use but it isn't documented. Irish and other european trad music is also particular in having many frequent patterns, which might lead to exceptions compared with classical sheemusic.
Kris: your opinion is not only welcome but exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in. The number of bars per line is interesting and something I might work on - but in ABC music notation, the number of bars per line is decided by the person noting it, not the computer program - I might write something to create automatic adjustment though. As for beams, your method doesn't seem to match what most scoresheets have - or indeed the standard notation guide - in particular, when the structure is not necessarily ascending, the beam is very often horizontal. And the beam descent is usually between 1 and 2 spaces (ie covering a maximum of one ledger line), far less than what would be needed if the first and end notes had an octave-long stem. How would you note the first 4 notes of cooley's for example? EBBA . Or later in the 2nd bar of the same tune, I play dBAD (in ABC notation, a uppercase is in the first octave, lowercase in the second)
dagnabit. more answers to respond to. Sibelius is paying non-free software - and doesn't exist for my choice of operating system (ubuntu linux). Free software with output comparable to Sibelius does indeed exist. So I already have software that will produce nice scores.
I'll admit, it's more to play about with a couple of neat technologies, than an actual *real need*. Specifically, for printed sheetmusic, I won't use my own layout algorithm, but rather that of lilypond. I'm just interested in quick editing, transposing and web distribution.
Typical scenario would be
Friend (by email or other computer communicaiton): "how do you play such and such a tune? is it like the score on thesession.org"
Me: "not quite..."
<copy abc from the session, put it in my program, make changes, save it, show friend link>
This really doesn't change much from doing the same on my computer and sending an email, but avoids my having to create an extra file on my computer and then finding it to put in an attachment.
Greg,
A feature of Melody Assistant I find useful is that a bar or selection of bars can be stretched or shrunk. This means you can have longer bars when there are more notes, to make it easier to read, the end of line marker alters automatically. Automatic beaming and also spacing (relative to note length) can be turned on and off.
Editing can be limited to one bar to stop you putting too many notes in rather than spilling over to the next bar and wrecking the rest of the line.
I like the facility of turning these on or off.
"Typical scenario would be
Friend (by email or other computer communicaiton): "how do you play such and such a tune? is it like the score on thesession.org"
Me: "not quite..."
<copy abc from the session, put it in my program, make changes, save it, show friend link>"
Hmmm. I don't think I'm being very clear... I have abc2ps - what I don't have is a real-time abc editor (which also shows the dots at the same time as writing abc) which works on my OS.
Scott: how do you figure? I know I have to count the bars I'm trying to put on a line to make sure all will fit - some abc programs will give a warning and create a new line if there is no room. But I'm not working for print, so I can pretty much make the lines as wide as I like.
here is my take, prettiness is far down the track, I want visibility and the key signature to be on every line, I want to be able to open multiple windows of .abc at the same time, i want to merge compilation files, I want it to be stable and not collapse at inopportune moments like abc2win does.
I like melody assisstant, but I find that skink (available in the links section) produces very pretty music. If you want a crash course in engraving try reading the lily pad notation software site.
This topic is long gone, having dropped off Page One into the abyss. Thought I’d post away, anyway.
So I was jogging this morning and it came to me – Here’s what I’d like in a music-writing program:
I’d love a program that created the look and feel of an O’Neil’s facsimile – maybe just a little cleaner, but basically with that old filled-in hot lead look.
Associated fonts for tune titles, etc. could be slightly distressed like “Attic” font or “Domincan” - antiqued, but not going all Ren-fair with the Uncial script or god forbid, Black letter (Ye Olde English) fonts.
It would be nice to have an additional optional Irish font for Irish names, too.
I guess you’re envisioning web-based only, but is it possible to make it printer-friendly as well, like concertina.net Tune-a-Tron generating a .pdf?
Might seem a little gimmicky, but I’d love to have my tunebook looking like O’Neils or Ryan’s Mammoth Collection.
sheetmusic aesthetics
sheetmusic aesthetics
I'm thinking of writing a webbased program for "realtime" editing of abc. As such, I get to write the whole layout engine. I won't be getting to a library with books on engraving for a while, so at the moment, I'm stuck with the Music Publisher's Association's "Standard music notation practice".
I don't particularly like the sheetmusic produced here (not that it matters); but I like to do things right, so I was wondering what you guys' preferences are: most notably, in terms of spacing and of beam placement.
should the jig bars
| DEF DEF | and | D2 E F3 | be of the same length? I'm thinking of making the second slightly shorter (so that there is more spacing after a quarter than an eighth, but not proportionally so)
when should beams go up, when should they go down and when should they stay flat? Taking simple jig examples: I think of the beginning of connaughtman's rambles as having a pedal note, so for FAA dAA, my preference would be for straight beams - but most programs give them as ascending and descending respectively. And what about longer beams, covering say 4 notes? What should determine whether they go up or down? In sheet music I have for cooley's, for example, the introductory EBBA has a horizontal beam (in 3 versions), but other places have a slope where a horizontal would be nicer (thinking of pedals again).
Lastly, stem height under or over beams... I don't find short stems very nice. Stems are usually an octave in height. Should I fix it to make the average as close as possible to one octave? or so that the minimum is about one octave? Maybe beam slant should reflect this aesthetic?
My main reason for doing this is that I want something for quickly writing out scores to give to people (assuming they know the music of course), and for transposing a number of tunes (particularly breton) which aren't written in a whistle-friendly key - sight-reading isn't a skill I'm particularly interested in perfecting, so I can read something with one or two sharps but that's it.
Does anyone else have any particular wishes?
(before I disappoint anyone, it will almost certainly only work in firefox 1.5 and greater - this is because it will use html+svg+javascript, which together enable almost same possibilities as flash - but with open and free standards - it should be easy and permissible for anyone to modify it - GPL.)
Greg
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Tirno
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Well, Greg, I think you (and I) are probably about to come in for a few digs....
I know a lot about writing manuscript, but nothing about doing it on a computer. To me, one of the most useful things with Irish music, is that you reflect the structure of the music in how many bars per line you have. So for most jigs and reels that would be either 4 or 8 bars per line. I find that 4 per line works well with reels, especially if they are made up of mostly eigth notes. However with jigs, and a lot of polkas, this leaves the notes too strung out over the line, so I usually opt for putting these on three lines, with the repeat sign somewhere in the middle of the 2nd line. Eight bars per line is a bit cramped.
I do think the question of straight or sloping beams is a bit of an aesthetic one. when I write tunes out - which I do all the time, I draw the stem for the first and last notes of the beamed group (an octave long, as you say) then beam from these two points, adding the stems of the inner notes afterward. This works most of the time, but occasionally would look odd when I adjust it by "eye".
Good sight readers, like orchestral players, especially those who are used to reading mainly from traditionally printed music, do recognise notes partly by where the stem ends - especially when they are on ledger lines. They can get really confused when reading stuff that is oddly written out. Traditional musicians who do read are usually more flexible as they are used to reading more hand written stuff.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by kris
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Hi Greg,
Have you looked at Sibelius music publihing software? Their programme is pretty much the industry standard and is used in preference to all other notation progs, because of its clarity.
They have addressed all the questions you've posed regarding note spacings and beamings etc. So to answer your question about preferences, try and make yours look like theirs or integrate their programme with your idea if possible!
If you don't know about them you can find them at www.sibelius.com
That's my two cents worth.
Good luck.
Fred
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Fred Arley
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Greg,
Are you aware there are already programs out there that do this (although admittedly not web based)? I've been playing with a couple recently so I can format tunes for a beginners' session and print and distribute them as required.
If you're still going ahead with the project there are a few things I've picked up - I wrote an ABC to stave translator in Visual Basic when I was first learning the box, which also let me change the notes and record the fingering I'd decided on (as well as printing out keyboard maps in 'cheat' mode). Spacing of notes is always problematic - the best solution I've found is to give the user the option; position based on length of note or position based on 'engraving' rules. Beginners prefer the first option, experienced the latter IMHO. Even better is to let the user define the settings, which is easy with an .ini file in VB, but needs a bit more of an interface for web images (I suspect there will be subtle-enough-to-be-annoying differences between IE & Firefox for example).
Another issue I found was the lowest and highest notes achievable - I was basing mine on the BC box, but decided to expand it's capabilities to the whole range of ABC so I could modify the program for other instruments as required (e.g. whistle!). The printed area gets quite large if you allow for all possibilities. It needs a bit of careful thought when triplets with a big jump in them are required (e.g. Morrison's jig). Kris's comments about sight readers are very true - I found I could sight read my own output easily, and I was doing it almost out of the corner of my eye.
I allowed the user to define which points in the score were the end of a printed row - it makes for much clearer delineation of 'A' and 'B' parts. I did get some issues with Microsoft's (I know, you'll be shocked to hear it) lack of standards between displayed and printed text; there was a lot of toing and froing until I hit a happy medium which gave me a reasonable WYSIWYG interface.
Having said that, I was pleased with the output I managed and still use some of the printouts today. Best of luck with the project - I'd love to try the beta release...
Eno
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by bc_box_player
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
I agree with Fred, I have Sibelius 3, and never cease to wonder at its capabilities.
However,Good luck Greg in your endeavours and if you can improve on Sibelius programmes, you deserve to make yourself a million!
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by tag
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Fred: thanks. Lilypond claim that they produce the nicest sheetmusic - they specifically set out to be better than sibelius and finale - I don't know to what extent they succeed. They are also opensource - I've tried to figure out what algorithm they use but it isn't documented. Irish and other european trad music is also particular in having many frequent patterns, which might lead to exceptions compared with classical sheemusic.
Kris: your opinion is not only welcome but exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in. The number of bars per line is interesting and something I might work on - but in ABC music notation, the number of bars per line is decided by the person noting it, not the computer program - I might write something to create automatic adjustment though. As for beams, your method doesn't seem to match what most scoresheets have - or indeed the standard notation guide - in particular, when the structure is not necessarily ascending, the beam is very often horizontal. And the beam descent is usually between 1 and 2 spaces (ie covering a maximum of one ledger line), far less than what would be needed if the first and end notes had an octave-long stem. How would you note the first 4 notes of cooley's for example? EBBA . Or later in the 2nd bar of the same tune, I play dBAD (in ABC notation, a uppercase is in the first octave, lowercase in the second)
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Tirno
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
dagnabit. more answers to respond to. Sibelius is paying non-free software - and doesn't exist for my choice of operating system (ubuntu linux). Free software with output comparable to Sibelius does indeed exist. So I already have software that will produce nice scores.
I'll admit, it's more to play about with a couple of neat technologies, than an actual *real need*. Specifically, for printed sheetmusic, I won't use my own layout algorithm, but rather that of lilypond. I'm just interested in quick editing, transposing and web distribution.
Typical scenario would be
Friend (by email or other computer communicaiton): "how do you play such and such a tune? is it like the score on thesession.org"
Me: "not quite..."
<copy abc from the session, put it in my program, make changes, save it, show friend link>
This really doesn't change much from doing the same on my computer and sending an email, but avoids my having to create an extra file on my computer and then finding it to put in an attachment.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Tirno
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Greg,
A feature of Melody Assistant I find useful is that a bar or selection of bars can be stretched or shrunk. This means you can have longer bars when there are more notes, to make it easier to read, the end of line marker alters automatically. Automatic beaming and also spacing (relative to note length) can be turned on and off.
Editing can be limited to one bar to stop you putting too many notes in rather than spilling over to the next bar and wrecking the rest of the line.
I like the facility of turning these on or off.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Lurcherjohn
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
"Typical scenario would be
Friend (by email or other computer communicaiton): "how do you play such and such a tune? is it like the score on thesession.org"
Me: "not quite..."
<copy abc from the session, put it in my program, make changes, save it, show friend link>"
Have you looked at the Concertina .net's Tune-a-tron
I use this if I want to make a clearer printout of an ABC.
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
Chris
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by spindizzy
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Greg
You should start off by looking at the various "abc2ps" sorts of programs out there.
http://staffweb.cms.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/#software
There's much there that you could adapt. (And I'm not sure you realize what a big job it is you're contemplating!)
And btw, number of bars per line *is* something you have to worry about when rendering ABC.
-- Scott
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by srt19170
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Hmmm. I don't think I'm being very clear... I have abc2ps - what I don't have is a real-time abc editor (which also shows the dots at the same time as writing abc) which works on my OS.
Scott: how do you figure? I know I have to count the bars I'm trying to put on a line to make sure all will fit - some abc programs will give a warning and create a new line if there is no room. But I'm not working for print, so I can pretty much make the lines as wide as I like.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Tirno
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Have you tried ABC Navigator? That shows the dots as you enter the ABC so you can see exactly what thew sheet music will look like.
# Posted on September 11th 2006 by Thumper
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
here is my take, prettiness is far down the track, I want visibility and the key signature to be on every line, I want to be able to open multiple windows of .abc at the same time, i want to merge compilation files, I want it to be stable and not collapse at inopportune moments like abc2win does.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Joze
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
I like melody assisstant, but I find that skink (available in the links section) produces very pretty music. If you want a crash course in engraving try reading the lily pad notation software site.
# Posted on September 12th 2006 by Kriana
Re: sheetmusic aesthetics
Tirno,
This topic is long gone, having dropped off Page One into the abyss. Thought I’d post away, anyway.
So I was jogging this morning and it came to me – Here’s what I’d like in a music-writing program:
I’d love a program that created the look and feel of an O’Neil’s facsimile – maybe just a little cleaner, but basically with that old filled-in hot lead look.
Associated fonts for tune titles, etc. could be slightly distressed like “Attic” font or “Domincan” - antiqued, but not going all Ren-fair with the Uncial script or god forbid, Black letter (Ye Olde English) fonts.
It would be nice to have an additional optional Irish font for Irish names, too.
I guess you’re envisioning web-based only, but is it possible to make it printer-friendly as well, like concertina.net Tune-a-Tron generating a .pdf?
Might seem a little gimmicky, but I’d love to have my tunebook looking like O’Neils or Ryan’s Mammoth Collection.
# Posted on September 24th 2006 by fidkid