It is being claimed 'elsewhere' that "Ulster Scots" is a regional variation and should be considered alongside other identifyable region variations. But where is Ulsterscotland? It is a region that I am unaware of.
It is, of course, an implied 'region' within a region. A pluralist 'region' produced by a pluralist mindset that would seek to seperate itself from identifyable common, cultural realities that have existed for some centuries now. Surely, if we are truly seeking to conduct ourselves nobly, and extract ourselves from the mistakes of the past, then we should avoid all exclusive prospecting on common culture, especially as this occurs at the expense of the open inclusion of other participants in said culture ( effected so as it is when ANY obvious racial divider is applied).
To give you some idea of just how little this pluralist position has been thought through, an example:
On the Ulster Scots Agency website, under 'fiddle' in the 'Music' menu, there is a description of Antrim fiddle playing.
Is 'Antrim fiddle style' the 'Ulster-Scots Style'?
Is Antrim Ulsterscotland?
I can tell you that many Antrim musicians and other people would find this rediculous and presumtious. I am from Antrim and I can tell you that considering Antrim traditional music style (if indeed 'one' exists) as a facet of 'Ulster Scots' misrepresents the cultural/ racial demographics of that area profoundly.
The article states that the main influences on the 'Antrim fiddle style' are Scotland, 'the Sligo style' (as if there was one 'Sligo Style') and 'the Donegal style' (ditto).
Now, on its own, the article is all reasonable enough, if not particularly well concieved (It does give some explanation of *part* of the population's historical connections with Scotland, and the history of Scottish plantation, which wasn't exclusively Scottish by any means of course).
My only conclusion from the article appearing where it does is that it is implying that the Scots ascendency in the area have some historical 'right' to label the obviously common music tradition of the area as their own. Which, of course, is deeply unreasonable.
I conclude the above because the article does not actually succeed in identifying a seperate, distinct "Ulster-Scots" musical style .
And if you think you're confused, this from the 'horses mouth':
"According to the founder of the Ulster-Scots Folk Orchestra, Willie Drennan, what is perhaps unique to fiddling in County Antrim is that the fiddle has borrowed tunes usually played on the fife and vice-versa. One fiddler interviewed in this research has also suggested that the Ulster-Scots style of playing with little ornamentation is similar to the old County Antrim style of fiddling characterised by short, sharp bows and little ornamentation. However, other fiddle-players interviewed did not agree that the Scots-Ulster style of playing was similar to the County Antrim style."
This is the only part of the article that mentions a seperate Ulster-Scots/ Scots-Ulster style in content. Seems that between 'it's' own exponants there seeme to be some confusion as to what 'it' actually is.
Ulster-Scots?Antrim?Ulster-Scots?Antrim?...... Hardly a good foundation on which to base a movement.
How much does it matter at the end of the day? If people feel the need for a separate identity and are insecure enough to set about manufacturing one, how much can those of us who participate in mainstream Irish culture criticise them? After all so many aspects of 'Gaelic' culture, from Gaelic football to Irish dancing were manufactured at a time when there was a political will to break away from Britian. Every country, to some degree or another manufactures an acceptable version of history and an compatible culture when it is politically expedient to do so. Or so Eric Hobsbawm argues very convincingly in his brilliant book, 'The Invention of Tradition' which makes all of us who might be tempted to throw a stone at the concept of 'Ulster Scots' (and I number myself amongst the stone throwers, Harry!) uncomfortably aware of the glass house surrounding us all.
We've been stuck in the uncomfortable heat of the greenhouse here for too long.
I apply the same reasoning to all strands of Irish cultural life- if its a cause or support of entrenched views or an amplifier of quite insubstantial differences then expose the sh*t out of it.
"Ulster Scots" is just the latest in a long line of aggressive cultural conquests on this island. I question any other attempt at exclusive ownership as vigourously.
Perhaps, Harry. I just think that by opposing it you somehow give it a form and substance and credibility that it otherwise lacks; to argue is to assume equality as they say. When I come across examples of this peddling of makey-uppy Ulster Scots tosh I rise to sad, baffled sigh and that is the only response it merits. Struggling against something, trying to repress it only gives it a strength it otherwise lacked. I was driving through a housing estate somewhere off the Shankill last year, one of those places where they have decided to put up street names in both English and Ulster Scots. One road was something like Glencairn Gardens and underneath it read, Glencairn Gairdens. Says it all really.
'Horses for courses' and all that. I think it is an interesting phenomenon, one worth debating... and completely exposing as baseless.
I have yet to encounter something to struggle against. I'm hardly 'against' something that I don't think has any substance. But there is discussion to be had around 'views' based on inaccurate designations the like of which have caused trouble amongst our countryfolk in the past. I think that is a worthwhile discussion. Like I said earlier: while we're all 'wrong', some of us are harmfully so.
Keep sighing, that of course is a response to it as well. I'll do what I want to do.
Interesting post, Sergeant. I can imagine a manufactured culture working well enough if its art-forms, games etc. are well enough devised to be self-sufficient and satisfying in themselves - which is to say, if they are adapted or created by people with a good knowledge of music, dancing, games and whatever, and NOT just decreed from on high by politicos.
The 'Gaelic' things you mention, seem to work (I don't like the sound of dancers having to wear wigs, but what business is it of mine?!.); so did the British Army use of tartan and pipers, from late c18 or early c19; the whole Highland regalia and associated culture has its magnificence even if the tartans may be of suspect antiquity and created for families complicit in the Clearances; cricket and football - banned or despised in England for a long time - got regulated and raised to Empire-building status in Victorian times - and so on.
In Israel, some of the early Zionists actually wanted to leave a lot of their cultural baggage in Europe and re-invent themselves: having among them some talented musicians and composers, they commissioned them to write some brand-new folk songs, which they did. I haven't heard them but a friend who grew up on a kibbutz said they were good enough; they served their purpose at the time.
Nicholas, by weird synchronicity I have just posted something not unconnected with Zionism a few messages 'up' from here. Hobsbawm has something interesting things to say about kilts too; I seem to remember he argues that they were the creation of an English Quaker! I'm aware too of the emphasis early Zionists placed on secularism; it's one of the tragedy of our times that their vision didn't succeed.
Good points well made. Can you imagine how divided Ireland will be if the "Ulster Scots" identity becomes as 'successfully' established , as nationalistic and as aggressively politicised as the previously invented 'Gaelic' one?
I need hardly remind that there are serious extreme elements in the "Ulster Scots" mix.
Ulster is a region, I don't think many would disagree with that--now, folks that claim it is a Scottish region, there is the rub.
This Ulster Scot thing, attempting to "officially" define a culture, reminds me of something that I read about in the history of Irish dance. Wasn't there a Gaelic League, predecessors of the current CCE, that decided which dances were, or were not, truly "Irish." For example, the Yellow Book of ceilidhe dances contain 30 very popular dances, but some of the dances you might dance at a ceilidhe (at least here in our Rhode Island Irish Ceilidhe Club) , like a mazurka or the Gay Gordons, are not in there, I would imagine because someone didn't think they were "Irish" enough. Some might argue that these efforts helped preserve Irish culture, others, like the folks who call themselves "sean nos" dancers, think it squashed creativity.
In the end, attempts to manufacture cultures generally seem to fail, as human cultures more often shape themselves from the bottom up than from the top down.
To quote the Bard, it is all "Sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Harry, you said - “It is being claimed 'elsewhere' that "Ulster Scots" is a regional variation” .... but I said - “if indeed it transpired that there were in fact actual recognizable variations that were of some, even only small, value in this music,” ..... so I was not claiming anything of the sort, I was being open minded to the possibility that there might be! So your whole argument got off on the wrong foot!
I noticed too that the ‘Antrim Fiddle’ article you quoted, from the Ulster Scots Agency’s website, actually posed a number of questions rather than just laid out dogmatically what Ulster Scots Fiddling was, which I thought demonstrated a little more openness than you perhaps give them credit for.
I wonder too why you didn’t actually mention that the article was clearly written by one ‘Fionnuala Wilson’.
Interesting isn’t it that this writer, who sports a Gaelic name, has her article given such credit on this site, don’t you think!
Looks like it’s not only folks like me, an outsider, who isn’t exactly sure what it’s all about.
If they themselves are openly asking questions, then maybe this isn’t the ‘dogma’ that you claim it is after all, but actually just folks exploring their past & asking many more questions than they actually have answers for?
"I need hardly remind that there are serious extreme elements in the "Ulster Scots" mix." No Harry, I think we are under no illusion that the extreme elements on both sides have not just suddenly & miraculously vanished.
But there's no getting away from the fact that up here, we must all now be just that little bit safer surely, if even just some of these unsavoury elements of society are now busy behind the scenes squabbling over tunes, whose music belongs to whom & the best wigs to wear with their next dance outfit!
So, what if they are busy inventing a culture which didn't exist before, then at least that's a step away from the old days when they were spending all their time plotting their old terrorist schemes of murder & mayhem!
It may not be the perfect, final solution for here, to suit all, but I think the Northern Utopia is still a little way down the road.
You say you worry too about how “divided Ireland will be if the "Ulster Scots" identity becomes as 'successfully' established” - but perhaps it is not this huge dangerous threatening beastie that you imagine it is after all, but more like a larger version of say the ever growing Chinese community which exists here, & of course there are other ‘Eastern European’ communities which are growing fast here. They already have their own shops & practice their own art forms, including music & dance.
These developments are surely healthy for Northern Ireland which has been a two dimensional society for far too long. I hope these developments are simply signs of this region growing up & catching up with the trends that have been affecting the rest of Europe for the past thirty odd years, while this area has been far too preoccupied to notice.
So far from Ulster becoming the twin cultural society you see at the end of the road, I see it has far more chance of ending up as more of a pluralistic one.
"folks that claim it is a Scottish region" - I must admit I've never heard that crazy notion before Al.
I believe many wish this region would stay just as it is, others who wish it would become a separate little independant state of sorts & others who want it to go back to being part of Eire & the 32 counties.
However, this is a crazy world we live in & I suppose it is just possible that there are a few absolute fanatics out there who imagine this region could become completely free of all Protestants, Scots or English people - i.e. pure Catholic/Irish.
Likewise, it is just possible that there are others who imagine this region completely devoid of all Irish Catholics & calling it 'Ulsterscotland', but come on, let's face it, we should be able to spot those guys cause their knuckles are probably dragging along the ground & they'll still believe the Earth is flat!
Re. The author of the article: I don't judge or evaluate people's views on their ethnicity. I took the article at face value as is the reasonable and fair thing to do. The article, appearing as it does on the website of an agency set up to promote 'Ulster Scots' culture, must surely be viewed as a comment on 'Ulster Scots' music. What is very plain to see is that the author obviously accepts that there is an Ulster-Scots style, but, as usual says little and is vague about its content.
Your directing people to an article on regional music "in defence of this movement" seemed clear enough to me. You're hoping on and off your little spot on the fence again. You are assuming I was only refering to you again when I said that it is being claimed that 'Ulster Scots' is a distinct, regional style. The claim is being made elsewhere.
A 'twin cultural society' would be a pluralistc society of course. Except the 'twins' would hardly be the same. Maybe you meant a dual cultural society, which of course would also be plural?
I think your comparison of "Ulster Scots" to the chinese community and Eastern European community is dreadful. Is there any ambiguity as to the distinct, separate culture that they bring with them? Are they claiming strands of indigenous, common culture as 'Ulster- Chinese' or whatever? Of course not, they have more sense, and they don't need to.
But most of all it is plain to see; they haven't been here for several hundred years, mixing with the natives culturally, adding to the culture of the country, drawing on the culture of the country, defining the culture of the country through an organic process that defies the sort of segragation/ separation that latter day "Ulster Scots" seperatists are keen to impose on it.
Ulster was thelast Gaelic region of Ireland, as it was the last to be planted. Much of Antrim and Down was not affected. The North Antrim connection to Scotland goes back to the kingdom of Dalriada when we more or less planted Scotland. Or as Paddy Maloney used to say "We gave the bagpipes to Scotland and they still haven't got the joke".
Ulster Scots was invented as part of the peace process, to introduce the idea of "Parity of Esteem". Now we couldn't very well have GAA on TV, Irish language programmes on Radio Ulster, and Irish music all over the place, not to mention grants for the GAA and Irish language, if we did not have something on the "other" side. Now the politicians were not going to promote "Orangeism" unless there were serious changes, hence the need for Ulster Scots.
To most the whole idea is a joke, such as Glencairn Gairidines or whatever, and treated as such. The music bit was designed to show that although we thought we were two separate tribes, it turns out we have much in common, as an Ulster Scots reel is identical to an Irish reel. We just have to pretend it is different, to justify giving grants out to this "culture". The idea was to introduce Irish music to more "unionists", or at least make them aware of it, and that it was not "fenian" music or "Chucky" songs. Fenian means Catholic, and Chucky means republican or rebel songs.
However Ulster is much like the Southern States of America and the "poor white trash" resist all these middle class attempts at harmony, such as the Belfast Giants ice hockey team, Ulster Rugby team winning in Europe, and even the "gentlefication" of N.Ireland soccer team, where supporters now wear green and white colours, and are trying to get the yobs out.
However the "Poor White Trash" in some areas have attempted to hijack the Ulster Scots thing, on Loyalist web sites and such, to show that they are a separate tribe. I do not think the politicians envisaged this, they just assumed everybody would see through the charade and accept or ignore it. I believe that this is what concerns Harry, because as I said earlier, the Ulster Scots thing is either ignored or seen as a joke.
So while I agree with Ptarmigan that the music bit is harmless, I think I can see where Harry is coming from. Dissidents and yobs and the uneducated can cause a lot of damage, to the Ulster Scots concept and the GAA in Co.Antrim as we saw recently.
Most on this site however are concerned with the music aspect, as this is not a political site. The music bit is harmless, because there isn't really a separate Ulster Scots tradition. ITM, Scottish traditional, Breton et al, have all intermingled yes, but "Ulster Scots" was an invention for political reasons.
Harry B - in all things to do with Ulster I must defer to you and others like Ptarmigan who actually live there, and say very interesting things about it (I remember your post about how as a small child you wanted to twirl a stick like the Protestants, not knowing about the political divide..).
Looking at the Agency website, I suspect you're right about the possible dangers of a rebranded "Ulster Scots" identity along the lines it indicated. Its movers and shakers might well succeed in inventing a culture to further aggressive aims. But whether its components last, depends on their individual viability - who (allowing for postwar suppression, and maybe Neo-Nazis) remembers Nazi camp-fire songs now?
The language bit seems bizarre - like much in Ulster, from an English perspective. If kids start out by learning to speak, write and spell in a local form of old Lowland Scots, are they all going to be equally adept at communicating with the rest of the English-speaking world in recognisable spoken and written standard English? Or will one or the other have to be beaten into them for a number of years, as was my generation's experience of Latin?
I'm not aware that the Irish Government's programme of compulsory learning of Irish was very successful in inculcating a general love of the language in the nation's youth. The language hung on anyhow. If the Ulster Scots dialect is living, it will hang on anyhow. If it is suddenly pumped full of words last used in the time of Burns and a whole slew of newly-invented spellings, a lot of its real speakers might just want to crawl away.
The 'extremes' are not as extreme as you may think (neo-nazis etc.). The Reverend Ian Paisley is a commited Ulster-Scot lobbyist and has secured serious political clout for his cause up to a European level of government. In fact he is the main political clout of 'the movement':
"The pre-eminent guardians of that Biblical truth in the United Kingdom today are the Protestant Ulster-Scots."
The man is a member of the Loyalist Apprentice Boys of Derry and a catholic hating nut: he resigned from the orange order in '62 after the order elders failed to expell one of its members for attending a catholic mass. He is a protestant fundamentalist who believes that the pope is the antichrist: During a visit by Pope John Paul II to the European Parliament in 1988, Paisley shouted "I denounce you, Anti-Christ!" several times before being ejected.
He is also leader of the largest political party in the North of Ireland the DUP.
Any cause for concern there? Did a few hard line loyalist vote his party most popular?
Now, lets all smile and play our wee tunes shall we.
Ian Paisley is a politician, an exceptional "get things done" M.P if you are a constituent.
But he is a politician, and after votes. He has absolutely nothing to do with Ulster Scots music or culture. He has a lot to do with Loyalist Websites, misleading working class people and filling their heads full of hatred, to get votes.
Playing a few wee tunes is an excellent idea. Maybe living in the Free State has made you lose touch, Harry.
From the same, moderate, Ulster Scots Agency website:
DUP Leader speaks up for Ulster-Scots
DUP MEP Dr. Ian Paisley intervened in a European Parliament debate yesterday, on language funding to secure special consideration for Ulster-Scots.
The Irish language, which is designated as a ‘working’ but not an ‘official’ language, was the subject before the Strasbourg House when the DUP leader got up to demand that the ‘principle of equality’ be applied.
He asked that there should be a level playing field of support for all languages, and was supported by other MEP’s, including one from Cornwall, where the language issue is also alive.
Commissioner David Byrne undertook to give ‘this blossoming language’ sympathetic consideration when funding is reviewed.
Lord Laird of Artigarvan, Chairman of the Ulster-Scots Agency, said that he was delighted with the intervention of Dr. Ian Paisley.
“We must always ensure that the rights of the Ulster-Scots language are not forgotten about. I am very pleased with the progress that Dr. Paisley has made in Strasbourg on behalf of the Ulster-Scots language.”
“This is yet a further move in the right direction.” Lord Laird concluded.
Dr. Paisley said he was very pleased by the ‘good reception’ across the House for his proposal.
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much was spent on the promotion and support of (a) Irish and (b) Ulster-Scots cultural activities excluding the Irish language expenditure, identified in his answer of 13 January, Official Report, column 57, in each of the past five years. [17084]
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much the promotion and teaching of the Irish language in English-medium schools cost in 1995-96, broken down by (a) teacher costs, (b) teaching materials, (c) inspectorate and examination costs, (d) teacher training, and (e) overhead costs. [17083]
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people have been employed in each of the last five years by direct and indirect Government funding on the promotion and teaching of (a) the Irish language and (b) the Ulster-Scots language. [17085]
He's very interested in the Irish language all of a sudden.
"He has consistently pressed Government on the need for greater investment in the employment, tourism and transport sectors for the Coleraine and Limavady areas. He has led local delegations to Ministers on issues such as the increase in second homes on the North Coast, the under-funding of the Ulster Scots cultural identity. "
Like I said, he is a politician, that's what they do for constituents and votes. You have been down South too long, with all the brown envelopes full of money for the politicians. Up here, after 80 years, you suddenly need policies and to play the game.
I think he also managed to get the funding for the GAA pitches in Ballymena.
I'm interested in Harry's "let's all smile and play our wee tunes shall we". On the one hand it seems a slightly sarcastic admission of the futility of the music, in the grand scheme of things. And on the other hand it could be taken as the music being the perfect escapism from the grand scheme of things.
I kind of like it either way actually
To suggest that Big Ian, with all his lobbing for the money and clout behind the 'Ulster Scots' spin machine, has nothing to do with 'Ulster Scots' music and culture is simply incorrect.
He's not out 'Och-ing and 'Ooo-ing, or dancing or fiddling (in the musical sense). But he is seriously getting things done for the people who are. I'm quite aware of how effective a mover and shaker he is. Its all part of the game.
At last you realise it is a GAME, like N.Ireland politics for the last 16-20 years, all carefully planned. From 1952 until last year or so Big Ian never mentioned Ulster Scots in his life. The type of thing Ptarmigan is trying to promote is light years away from Loyalist web sites, and Big Ian.
The reason that DUP and Sinn Fein get most votes is not all bigotry, they actually do things unlike the others, so praise is indeed due to Elaine McMillan and the others. But it is a GAME.
And by the way Llig leahcim, or my old buddy Michael, I know, and I think you do, what Harry meant when he said "let's smile and play our wee tunes", and it was neither of your suggestions.
Did a few hard line loyalist vote his party most popular?
asks Harry.
I voted for Willie McCrea, because he was of immense help to our tenants association. He is also musical, to keep in line with the site. Find his CDs on google.
Oh I remember Wild Bill and Big Ian's 'gigs' out the front of Belfast City Hall. Ian is certainly not musical: his renditions of those dour hymms I can only liken to a grizzly bear's fart slowed down and elongated considerably.
I'm afraid I see too many interrelations between the rise of the 'Ulster Scots' cultural identity, changes in unionist identity and the funding of cultural Norn' Irlnd' to accept your seperation of grass roots/ political and cultural will.
There has been an increasing number of 'Ulster Scots' events and organisations drawing on grass roots 'Ulster Scots' performers, the will and funding for these are inseperable and relate directly to political moves.
I realise there are more moderate political elements at work. Where is the Ulster Scots Agency (who sport a link to Dick's Stuff) getting their funding from? Did that come about from some political vacuum?
They get their funding to justify all the money given to Irish Language, Gaa and "Nationalist" culture. I already explained, it was to create a parity of esteem. It was never going to work by simply treating all as equals, and giving Catholics equality, they have to pretend that the other side need something as well.
Read this site all the time, and often with some glee, as the authors may have the odd well-intentioned misconception of 'Irishness'. which I find deliciously funny. More on that one later.
But above is a well written account by a native Irish person, who is a talented writer as well as musician, to wit Mr Harry B.
Let me at the outset declare my politics so that there can be no misunderstandings.
I am Irish-Scot with a dab of English, Scandinavian and Greek.
The idea that a person born in Ireland of whatever background would want to create a new 'scottish' identity within the island of Ireland leaves me wriggling with laughter! Why for gawdsakes complicate what is so simple. Aint broke, why fix?
Walk along a Irish 'boreeen' in the summer months, late in the evening while you can yet smell the fresh baked oaten bread cooling in open windows. If it is a still evening you might, in some country places, hear a tune being played, or from an open window the news on a loud TV/Radio.
The counttry is still a small one, the island can be driven across in an afternoon.
The music as I can best recall it - all of it, both orange and green, - is a merry concert - Perhaps the troubles have stolen some of the laughter, but to me it is still music, and a happy thing.
Yes we were inspired by our neighbors , the USA, Wales, Scotland and England, and with the odd detour onto the mainland of Europe Nobody denies that the Irish have borrowed, and we have the forms to prove it. The Jig, Italy, the Reel, Scotland, the Hornpipe, England and the Polka from eastern Europe. Yes we have older forms - long dances, sets, slips and the rest.
Still it needs be emphasised again and again that to the average Irish person 'this trad' is a very small part of the possible entertainment on a night out. So often trad is a labor of love, and as Harry already pointed out, this genre thrives under adversity. No wonder then that we have today many non Irish exponents of the art who are international stars.
So when it is supposed, by Mr Hamilton above, that Irish trad is most profitably played by natives, I think he does not want to look at the band playing in Bunratty Castle THIS weekend .Ouch!
Really people, It doesn't matter who plays it, but it does matter that whoever is playing Irish trad, plays it well. And that includes the marching music of the 12th as well as the dance music.
My 10c
Oh and before I go, have a gander at YouTube, for some great Irish music.
I am not in disagreement with your 'parity of esteem' statement. It's the likes of big Ian who will make sure that the 'i's are dotted and that all is in order for 'Ulster Scots' funding, as can be plainly seen from the quotes above.
Can anyone link this back into tunes and music without politics? Or, at the very least, can you explain how this funding is being used to promote Ulster-Scots music with some specific examples?
With regard to the language / dialect, is it such a bad thing to want to preserve? If there was a load of money made available to preserve the Shetland dialect / language would people be up in arms, or is it all only political? Just curious.
Re: Funding Info from the (government agency) Arts Council NI report:
"Music"
· "There is a lack of confidence as to the definition of Ulster-Scots
traditional music; this is the basic issue that has to be tackled before
there can be any development in this area.
· Promoting a major music event could be a trap – if it is to be promoted
it cannot be allowed to fail but there is not the ability/resources to
deliver it at this time.
· The big need is for more small events.
· Ulster-Scots traditional music development needs a development
infrastructure if it is to succeed.
· Music is not a strength at this time.
· Given the choral tradition in Northern Ireland, there should be the potential to establish an Ulster-Scots Choral Society.
· The BBC programme (made by Ian Kirk-Smith) on musical traditions
was highlighted as a significant contributor to generating interest in
and respect for the musical tradition, as it currently exists within the
community..."
The Ulster-Scots Agency has as its remit “the promotion of greater awareness and use of Ullans1 and of Ulster-Scots cultural issues, both within Northern Ireland and throughout the island”.
Within this remit the aim of the Agency is to -
• promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster-Scots as a living language;
• encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture;
• promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots
The Agency is empowered to offer financial assistance to those groups which -
• wish to undertake programmes which fall within the Agency’s remit;
• would not otherwise have the necessary resources to do so without the Agency’s financial input;
• meet the necessary criteria for the award of assistance.
Andy, you said - "If there was a load of money made available to preserve the Shetland dialect / language". Now I know many see the motives behind the funding as sinister but it makes me wonder how folks interested in the ancient Cornish language went about obtaining funding to help promote an interest in that 'dead' language & did they receive much opposition to public money being used in that way?
I've no doubt Cornish folk displayed a "lack of confidence" as to what it was & how relevent it was to them.
Likewise, if they had promoted a major event on this language, I'm sure they too would have had the same fears regarding failure.
I'm sure it also needed a "development infrastructure if it was (is) to succeed."
I'm sure they were also very well aware that the ancient Cornish language was not a "strength" at that time.
I'm sure if they'd been able to establish a Cornish Choral Society, it would have helped them promote the language & raise peoples awareness.
It appeared to me that that BBC programme wasn't actually trying to ‘invent’ something at all, but rather simply, as they said - "generating interest in and respect for the musical tradition, as it currently exists within the community..."
So if does exist, why not promote it, I'm sure all the musicians here can see the sense in that?
I personally don't believe that Ulster-Scots is a language, for I grew up listening to much of that dialect being spoken by my grandparents who were from the Scottish Borders, so to me it is simply another branch of that dialect, very much like the ‘Geordie’ dialect.
However, I am no expert on languages, but I do believe there are many, many knowledgeable & learned scholars out there who will be able to determine if it is, or is not, a 'real' language, so why not let them explore the possibility & if in the process they help preserve some of that dialect, then good luck to them.
I’m sure though, anyone looking for any official funding has to portray a very enthusiastic & positive front.
As an aside, can anyone here tell me what it was that the travelling people of Ireland spoke?
I'd be curious to know if they spoke an old Romany language & was that a form of Eastern European language or a branch of Gaelic?
Also, has that been studied & preserved?
So Andy, I’m not sure if any of that helps to answer your questions either, but like most subjects there are always more than two ways of looking at them.
What is the truth behind it all?
Ah, there’s the rub!
So what is truth?
“Questions about what is a proper basis on which to decide whether and to what extent words, symbols, ideas and beliefs may be said to be true, whether for a single person or an entire community or society, are among the many important questions addressed by the theories introduced below.”
To get a better understanding of what truth really is, you might want to read this whole page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
There are fascinating chapters on, for example, ‘Types of truth’, where it says:
“Metaphysical subjectivism holds that the truth or falsity of all propositions depends, at least partly, on what we believe.
In contrast, metaphysical objectivism holds that truths are independent of our subjective beliefs.
Except for propositions that are actually about our beliefs or sensations, what is true or false is independent of what we think is true or false.”
Lack of confidence - too many internal contradictions, perhaps:-
Ulster - where they live,
Scots - what they claim really to be,
Scots-Irish - a previous favourite term of Paisley's, now airbrushed out,
loyalist - rejecting a Scottish royal line in favour of continental ones,
based in London, and ostensibly devoted to the queen,
hard-line loyalist - less, not more, committed to life by the UK rule book,
rejectionist - of Ireland in general, Westminster, the UK in general, and
above all Rome in its various manifestations,
Ian Paisley - who is going to the EU, often seen as a limb of
Rome, to get validation and funding for all this...
I find its worth highlighting and copying a post every few mins. and just before you send if its taking you a while to type it. If the page has expired (which happens fairly quickly) you will loose any typing when you click 'send' as far as I can see.
I've actually thought of one Ulster Scot musician - the singer Len Graham, one of whose albums is on this site (under "recordings"). The song titles include some with Scottish references. I'd only ever thought of him as, well, an Irish singer. The surname indicates his predecessors came from the Border country north of Carlisle.
Nicholas, I think you need to be careful with assumptions like that. After all, just because Len sings songs which refer to Scotland, & was born in Ulster, doesn't automatically mean he is an Ulster Scot, does it?
For example, if you check another of his albums you'll see tracks like "Ar Bhruach na Carraige Báine" & "Tha M'Intinn Raoir/Siúdaibh Bhalachaibh". So if he's singing in Irish, does that automatically class him as being a Nationalist. http://www.musicinscotland.com/acatalog/Len_Graham_CDs.html
It's enough for me to think of Len simply as an Ulster man, meaning he was born in the province of Ulster by the way, & is one of the finest singers around.
I don't really care what his politics are.
For others a traditional singer's politics may be a big issue.
One of Scotland's finest traditional singers Dick Gaughan, used to fill his albums with beautiful traditional songs & I bought those, but once he started filling them with political songs, I'm afraid I lost interest.
Silver Spear, when that happens to me, I just click back to the previous page & my post is still sitting there, so I copy it - log in again & simply paste it in again. ...... well it works for me.
I think Len might disagree with the whole silly notion of silly designation, particularly in the context discussed . Why not ask him instead? It would be the polite thing to do.
In the words of the great singer himself:
"Do me justice, treat me fair, and I'll not be discontented,
And I'll not be laughed at anywhere, but highly re(e)presented".
Highlighting and copying is a good idea, but the back button can also retrieve disappearing posts. At least it works for me that way, but I'm on a Mac.
Firstly may I say that while you all rallied round Silver Spear when he lost his post, no-one gave two monkeys when I lost my masterpiece.
Andy Newcastle, the dialect will always survive, and so it should. The joke bit is that it needed to be promoted as a language, so forms are printed in English, Irish and Ulster Scots. At the last census there was a form in the Ulster Scots language. For guidance on the front it said;
"Hae a look at this afore ye fill in ure forme"
Hence I think we all agree it is not a language.
As luck would have it my branch of the Civil Service is under threat of closure. We, the union, wrote to the 5 main political parties in N.Ireland for support and the only one to reply, and invite us to a meeting today, was the DUP. So we went to see Nigel Dodds M.P and in the waiting room lo and behold was the newest edition of the "Ulster Scot" newspaper.
It was printed, entirely, in English.
By the way Len Graham has been singing long before Ulster Scots was invented.
In my town there is an "Ulster Scots" club, known to one and all as "The Kneebreakers", frequented mostly by supporters of Glasgow Rangers football team. Now the club/bar is being expanded, with grants naturally, and when it is finished I will seek a booking. It would be worth about £100,000 in grants if they had an Irish Traditional group, reaching across the divide and all that crap, so I should be able to charge a small fortune.
Well the workplace is closing down, and as the Godfather was fond of saying, "It's simply business, not personal".
OK, Ptarmy, Len Graham might not be an "Ulster Scot", or one of THOSE "Ulster Scots"! - just the surname indicates his ancestors came from a particular part of Scotland, that's all. And I hadn't noticed or realised that he sang in Irish.
(Perhaps he doesn't count as "Ulster Scots" but "Scots Irish"!...Enough of this crap, my brain hurts!)
Roving through the admittedly not always reliable pages of Wikipedia, I found that a lot more English or Normans had settled in Ireland in the Middle Ages than I realised. Come the Reformation and Tudor/Stuart/Cromwell invasions, the descendants of these earlier Eng./
Normans had completely adopted Irish language and customs, and were determined to remain Catholic. They were major opponents of the c16/c17 invasions.
Presumably, they were subsequently dragged back into the Anglosphere. But they'd made their point - nobody's doomed to be monolingual, even the English!
Rangers boys unfortunately are like Celtic boys up here, all they want to hear is the "Fields of Athenry", I kid you not.
Actually between Celtic and Rqngers fans the majority of the North appear to want to be Scottish. maybe we should just drop the Irish bit. People who display their Irishness by wearing a Celtic jersey is my pet hate, sorry about that.
And we don't do "party" songs, not even "Postman Pat".
Even after much consideration and handwringing, I am bound to admit, I haven't a clue as to what an Ulster Scot might be?
Is Mr Ptarmigan one? Is Mr Bliss one?
If so, does one born in Scotland and living in Mexico qulaify as an Aztec-Scot?
Perhaps if one's name is Scottish like Mr Paisley, perhaps the label could be applied as a contrast to say a Ulster -Aztec.
And so what about the Pakis in Ireland, or in Co Down Ireland are they Ulster Pakis?
Do all these neo-Irish people get a grant for speaking bad English?
About the attempt to make Lowlans official language of the 6 counties my Scottish pal Archie said ' thats a load a ????, they canna talk ' and said no more.
It's getting very complicated for the rest of us Scotties! Why not just declare war on Estonia and send Paisley back home there to his own kind? It would do him good to rub up against some old cold bag like himself. Perhaps it would cure him of his insanity as well.
Paisley has his own church, his own Orange Order, and his own political party; quite obviously, the next step is to have his own nationality, to which others may subscribe as they wish...
I think that Bliss's earlier post has been missed in all this - Clearly Dalriada = UlsterScotland
However, the lingua franca for the area [on both sisdes of the water] was a form of Gaelic and NOT scots.
There is a greater preponderance of 'scottish' tunes in Antrim than just about any other area except perhaps north Donegal and the Ards. Loads of flings, schottisches, strathspeys, etc. I would argue that this does give the Antrim repertoire a more scottish voice than many other parts of the country.
That's not to say that there isn't a swap over between the two 'traditions' in the North. Many pipe bands such as McNeillstown, Field Marshall Montgomery, etc have taken on many irish tunes and given their spin.
So - I dont not feel threatened by this whole notion and would go further - if someone BELIEVES or FEELS themselves to be Ulster Scots then it's a tad difficult to argue with that. Is Ulster Scots or Scots Irish any less valid a label than Irish American, or British Asian?
BTW, does anyone remember that quare little book that was brought out some years ago (before peace process) by some dude with UDA links? Was about all things 'dalriada'
It was called 'The Cruthan' or something. It seemed to herald the birth of the 'indepedant Ulster' heads. Claimed stout Ulster folk were pictish left overs, thouroughly distinct, who saved the world or something.
That was my first exposure to this sort of guff if I remember rightly. May have been published by 'Blackstaff Press'. Can't seem to find it on the web.
“ They were so named because their bodies were inked with pictures”
Ah ha, so could this explain why we see so many tatoos displayed on the 12th!
Breandan, you say that you don’t feel threatened & I don’t get the impression that many folk up here actually do feel threatened, either.
You also mentioned Irish Americans – & isn’t it true that large areas of certain American cities were almost completely taken over by one group of people or another, including the Irish Americans & wasn’t this, as much as anything else, just simply a sensible way of helping them to preserve their own culture & traditions, rather than some sinister plot by them to turn every American into an Irish American?
Or do we really believe that each group was actually plotting to take over America?
Did you get your reasoning style from editorials in The Sun?
Comparing the situation in the north with the conditions and realitites that greeted Irish and other emmigrants in the US is rediculous. It was a completely different situation then and now. As has been pointed out: the Ulster Scots can not boast a nation as 'the Irish' can/could, also they have no recognised, distinct culture, or, if they do, they haven't given any convincing evidence of it. Instead 'the movement' sets itself up under a racial banner, tries to formalise a little known regional dialect (from within a region) as a language, and claims traditional forms that have been resident, and by no means exclusive to their ideal racial profile, in Ireland for hundreds of years.
People can,of course, debate reasonably and sensibly without getting bogged down in the language of threat.
If I was on the rather shaky ground that you were I would find any sort of analysis threatening though. That's hardly my fault.
Fundamentalism and aspects of nationalism are probably the biggest dangers to peaceful existence in the world today, and maybe we should be aware of where they reside, and where they don't. An emerging nationalism is part of the 'Ulster Scots' invention wether you agree with it, contribute to it, or not. And there are all manner of fundamentalist conections as well as we have seen. I quite accept that these may be jumping on the bandwagon. If I were you, and was really trying to do something positive, I'd be glad that somebody was exposing them for what they were.
Trust Breandan to introduce hurling, how long before someone introduces Ulster scots shinty? Mind you, you were right on two things, hurling is the game and Dalriada and all that was obviously Gaelic speaking, as I pointed out Ulster was the last "real" Gaelic speaking region, well into the 17th century.
That book and such Harry is searching for is not worth the search. That was the time when we were being told that Cuhuillan was actually in the UDA, then called The Red Branch Knights. A load of twaddle.
I don't feel threatened either, because at the end of the day, like it or loathe it, the Yanks and Brits are insisting on a United Ireland, so that's that. I might feel threatened by the politics of the South, and our love for Bush and Blair.
Bush and Blair is actually the name of a lesser known slip jig, just to keep this on a musical topic.
Re: Ulster Scots/ Mr. Mac Bush. You might get a chuckle out of this BB.
"Scion of traitors and warlords: why Bush is coy about his Irish links: Tapestry artist reveals ancestors of US president as murderous bunch."
by Angelique Chrisafis, Ireland correspondent
It is perhaps not the best omen for US foreign affairs. Local historians in Wexford have discovered that George Bush is a descendant of Strongbow, the power-hungry warlord who led the Norman invasion of Ireland thus heralding 800 years of mutual misery. With a long line of Scots Irish presidents including Woodrow Wilson, the Irish are normally quick to claim US leaders as their own. But, despite President Bush's large Ulster Scots vote in the American Bible belt, Ireland had let his family escape the genealogical microscope.
But now Ann Griffin Bernstorff, an artist working on a tapestry to commemorate Ireland's Norman heritage, has discovered what she claims is the Bushs' missing Irish link..."
And to think I am one of those weedy liberal Guardian readers.
Strongbow wasn't Irish, French I believe. So his offspring and theirs etc would have become the Anglo-English, who along with the "native English" allied with the native Irish and the Anglo Irish at different times during the Cromwellian campaign. That bit is not completely factual, but if you ever read the Cromwell years in Ireland, it is something like that, about 6 different "ethnic" groups. Sounds like "The Life of Brian".
So is it any wonder we have "Ulster Scots". Of course as I said at the beginning, and Breandan helpfully agreed, they were originally Irish-Scots, when the Irish went to Scotland. When they came back, they were Scots-Irish. Recently that has narrowed to Ulster Scots.
I do appreciate your fears Harry, but believe me, no-one from either side will be allowed to disrupt the "Peace process". They will allow UDA "warlords" to remain in place to control others, but they will be involved in good honest crime, and not politics. The political warlords have all been removed or discredited.
So although some Loyalist websites are hijacking the Ulster Scots thing, it is as ridiculous as the Cuhuillan bit earlier.
And poor MrPtarmigan is working away in his own way, trying to cross the divide, and you have to give credit for that.
And be very afraid if you ever get me started about Bush.
"and our love for Bush and Blair." Bliss, sorry to hear about your job situation. If you do end up with time on your hands soon, perhaps you would consider joining these guys on their - 'World Tour'?
Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Dear All,
It is being claimed 'elsewhere' that "Ulster Scots" is a regional variation and should be considered alongside other identifyable region variations. But where is Ulsterscotland? It is a region that I am unaware of.
It is, of course, an implied 'region' within a region. A pluralist 'region' produced by a pluralist mindset that would seek to seperate itself from identifyable common, cultural realities that have existed for some centuries now. Surely, if we are truly seeking to conduct ourselves nobly, and extract ourselves from the mistakes of the past, then we should avoid all exclusive prospecting on common culture, especially as this occurs at the expense of the open inclusion of other participants in said culture ( effected so as it is when ANY obvious racial divider is applied).
To give you some idea of just how little this pluralist position has been thought through, an example:
On the Ulster Scots Agency website, under 'fiddle' in the 'Music' menu, there is a description of Antrim fiddle playing.
Is 'Antrim fiddle style' the 'Ulster-Scots Style'?
Is Antrim Ulsterscotland?
I can tell you that many Antrim musicians and other people would find this rediculous and presumtious. I am from Antrim and I can tell you that considering Antrim traditional music style (if indeed 'one' exists) as a facet of 'Ulster Scots' misrepresents the cultural/ racial demographics of that area profoundly.
The article states that the main influences on the 'Antrim fiddle style' are Scotland, 'the Sligo style' (as if there was one 'Sligo Style') and 'the Donegal style' (ditto).
Now, on its own, the article is all reasonable enough, if not particularly well concieved (It does give some explanation of *part* of the population's historical connections with Scotland, and the history of Scottish plantation, which wasn't exclusively Scottish by any means of course).
My only conclusion from the article appearing where it does is that it is implying that the Scots ascendency in the area have some historical 'right' to label the obviously common music tradition of the area as their own. Which, of course, is deeply unreasonable.
I conclude the above because the article does not actually succeed in identifying a seperate, distinct "Ulster-Scots" musical style .
And if you think you're confused, this from the 'horses mouth':
"According to the founder of the Ulster-Scots Folk Orchestra, Willie Drennan, what is perhaps unique to fiddling in County Antrim is that the fiddle has borrowed tunes usually played on the fife and vice-versa. One fiddler interviewed in this research has also suggested that the Ulster-Scots style of playing with little ornamentation is similar to the old County Antrim style of fiddling characterised by short, sharp bows and little ornamentation. However, other fiddle-players interviewed did not agree that the Scots-Ulster style of playing was similar to the County Antrim style."
This is the only part of the article that mentions a seperate Ulster-Scots/ Scots-Ulster style in content. Seems that between 'it's' own exponants there seeme to be some confusion as to what 'it' actually is.
Ulster-Scots?Antrim?Ulster-Scots?Antrim?...... Hardly a good foundation on which to base a movement.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
How much does it matter at the end of the day? If people feel the need for a separate identity and are insecure enough to set about manufacturing one, how much can those of us who participate in mainstream Irish culture criticise them? After all so many aspects of 'Gaelic' culture, from Gaelic football to Irish dancing were manufactured at a time when there was a political will to break away from Britian. Every country, to some degree or another manufactures an acceptable version of history and an compatible culture when it is politically expedient to do so. Or so Eric Hobsbawm argues very convincingly in his brilliant book, 'The Invention of Tradition' which makes all of us who might be tempted to throw a stone at the concept of 'Ulster Scots' (and I number myself amongst the stone throwers, Harry!) uncomfortably aware of the glass house surrounding us all.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by sergeant fox
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Here here sergeant. It wont effect me anyway! Much ado about nothing!
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by eurbanjo
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Mr. Fox,
'Throw the stones', break all the glass I say.
We've been stuck in the uncomfortable heat of the greenhouse here for too long.
I apply the same reasoning to all strands of Irish cultural life- if its a cause or support of entrenched views or an amplifier of quite insubstantial differences then expose the sh*t out of it.
"Ulster Scots" is just the latest in a long line of aggressive cultural conquests on this island. I question any other attempt at exclusive ownership as vigourously.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Perhaps, Harry. I just think that by opposing it you somehow give it a form and substance and credibility that it otherwise lacks; to argue is to assume equality as they say. When I come across examples of this peddling of makey-uppy Ulster Scots tosh I rise to sad, baffled sigh and that is the only response it merits. Struggling against something, trying to repress it only gives it a strength it otherwise lacked. I was driving through a housing estate somewhere off the Shankill last year, one of those places where they have decided to put up street names in both English and Ulster Scots. One road was something like Glencairn Gardens and underneath it read, Glencairn Gairdens. Says it all really.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by sergeant fox
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Dear Mr. Fox,
'Horses for courses' and all that. I think it is an interesting phenomenon, one worth debating... and completely exposing as baseless.
I have yet to encounter something to struggle against. I'm hardly 'against' something that I don't think has any substance. But there is discussion to be had around 'views' based on inaccurate designations the like of which have caused trouble amongst our countryfolk in the past. I think that is a worthwhile discussion. Like I said earlier: while we're all 'wrong', some of us are harmfully so.
Keep sighing, that of course is a response to it as well. I'll do what I want to do.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Interesting post, Sergeant. I can imagine a manufactured culture working well enough if its art-forms, games etc. are well enough devised to be self-sufficient and satisfying in themselves - which is to say, if they are adapted or created by people with a good knowledge of music, dancing, games and whatever, and NOT just decreed from on high by politicos.
The 'Gaelic' things you mention, seem to work (I don't like the sound of dancers having to wear wigs, but what business is it of mine?!.); so did the British Army use of tartan and pipers, from late c18 or early c19; the whole Highland regalia and associated culture has its magnificence even if the tartans may be of suspect antiquity and created for families complicit in the Clearances; cricket and football - banned or despised in England for a long time - got regulated and raised to Empire-building status in Victorian times - and so on.
In Israel, some of the early Zionists actually wanted to leave a lot of their cultural baggage in Europe and re-invent themselves: having among them some talented musicians and composers, they commissioned them to write some brand-new folk songs, which they did. I haven't heard them but a friend who grew up on a kibbutz said they were good enough; they served their purpose at the time.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Good man Harry, I'm not for one moment suggesting you do otherwise!
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by sergeant fox
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Nicholas, by weird synchronicity I have just posted something not unconnected with Zionism a few messages 'up' from here. Hobsbawm has something interesting things to say about kilts too; I seem to remember he argues that they were the creation of an English Quaker! I'm aware too of the emphasis early Zionists placed on secularism; it's one of the tragedy of our times that their vision didn't succeed.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by sergeant fox
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Nicholas,
Good points well made. Can you imagine how divided Ireland will be if the "Ulster Scots" identity becomes as 'successfully' established , as nationalistic and as aggressively politicised as the previously invented 'Gaelic' one?
I need hardly remind that there are serious extreme elements in the "Ulster Scots" mix.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Ulster is a region, I don't think many would disagree with that--now, folks that claim it is a Scottish region, there is the rub.
This Ulster Scot thing, attempting to "officially" define a culture, reminds me of something that I read about in the history of Irish dance. Wasn't there a Gaelic League, predecessors of the current CCE, that decided which dances were, or were not, truly "Irish." For example, the Yellow Book of ceilidhe dances contain 30 very popular dances, but some of the dances you might dance at a ceilidhe (at least here in our Rhode Island Irish Ceilidhe Club) , like a mazurka or the Gay Gordons, are not in there, I would imagine because someone didn't think they were "Irish" enough. Some might argue that these efforts helped preserve Irish culture, others, like the folks who call themselves "sean nos" dancers, think it squashed creativity.
In the end, attempts to manufacture cultures generally seem to fail, as human cultures more often shape themselves from the bottom up than from the top down.
To quote the Bard, it is all "Sound and fury, signifying nothing."
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Harry, you said - “It is being claimed 'elsewhere' that "Ulster Scots" is a regional variation” .... but I said - “if indeed it transpired that there were in fact actual recognizable variations that were of some, even only small, value in this music,” ..... so I was not claiming anything of the sort, I was being open minded to the possibility that there might be! So your whole argument got off on the wrong foot!
I noticed too that the ‘Antrim Fiddle’ article you quoted, from the Ulster Scots Agency’s website, actually posed a number of questions rather than just laid out dogmatically what Ulster Scots Fiddling was, which I thought demonstrated a little more openness than you perhaps give them credit for.
I wonder too why you didn’t actually mention that the article was clearly written by one ‘Fionnuala Wilson’.
Interesting isn’t it that this writer, who sports a Gaelic name, has her article given such credit on this site, don’t you think!
Looks like it’s not only folks like me, an outsider, who isn’t exactly sure what it’s all about.
If they themselves are openly asking questions, then maybe this isn’t the ‘dogma’ that you claim it is after all, but actually just folks exploring their past & asking many more questions than they actually have answers for?
"I need hardly remind that there are serious extreme elements in the "Ulster Scots" mix." No Harry, I think we are under no illusion that the extreme elements on both sides have not just suddenly & miraculously vanished.
But there's no getting away from the fact that up here, we must all now be just that little bit safer surely, if even just some of these unsavoury elements of society are now busy behind the scenes squabbling over tunes, whose music belongs to whom & the best wigs to wear with their next dance outfit!
So, what if they are busy inventing a culture which didn't exist before, then at least that's a step away from the old days when they were spending all their time plotting their old terrorist schemes of murder & mayhem!
It may not be the perfect, final solution for here, to suit all, but I think the Northern Utopia is still a little way down the road.
You say you worry too about how “divided Ireland will be if the "Ulster Scots" identity becomes as 'successfully' established” - but perhaps it is not this huge dangerous threatening beastie that you imagine it is after all, but more like a larger version of say the ever growing Chinese community which exists here, & of course there are other ‘Eastern European’ communities which are growing fast here. They already have their own shops & practice their own art forms, including music & dance.
These developments are surely healthy for Northern Ireland which has been a two dimensional society for far too long. I hope these developments are simply signs of this region growing up & catching up with the trends that have been affecting the rest of Europe for the past thirty odd years, while this area has been far too preoccupied to notice.
So far from Ulster becoming the twin cultural society you see at the end of the road, I see it has far more chance of ending up as more of a pluralistic one.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
I just wrote and posted something truly great about this, and it did not appear. You will all have to wait for enlightenment.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
"folks that claim it is a Scottish region" - I must admit I've never heard that crazy notion before Al.
I believe many wish this region would stay just as it is, others who wish it would become a separate little independant state of sorts & others who want it to go back to being part of Eire & the 32 counties.
However, this is a crazy world we live in & I suppose it is just possible that there are a few absolute fanatics out there who imagine this region could become completely free of all Protestants, Scots or English people - i.e. pure Catholic/Irish.
Likewise, it is just possible that there are others who imagine this region completely devoid of all Irish Catholics & calling it 'Ulsterscotland', but come on, let's face it, we should be able to spot those guys cause their knuckles are probably dragging along the ground & they'll still believe the Earth is flat!
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Dick,
Re. The author of the article: I don't judge or evaluate people's views on their ethnicity. I took the article at face value as is the reasonable and fair thing to do. The article, appearing as it does on the website of an agency set up to promote 'Ulster Scots' culture, must surely be viewed as a comment on 'Ulster Scots' music. What is very plain to see is that the author obviously accepts that there is an Ulster-Scots style, but, as usual says little and is vague about its content.
Your directing people to an article on regional music "in defence of this movement" seemed clear enough to me. You're hoping on and off your little spot on the fence again. You are assuming I was only refering to you again when I said that it is being claimed that 'Ulster Scots' is a distinct, regional style. The claim is being made elsewhere.
A 'twin cultural society' would be a pluralistc society of course. Except the 'twins' would hardly be the same. Maybe you meant a dual cultural society, which of course would also be plural?
I think your comparison of "Ulster Scots" to the chinese community and Eastern European community is dreadful. Is there any ambiguity as to the distinct, separate culture that they bring with them? Are they claiming strands of indigenous, common culture as 'Ulster- Chinese' or whatever? Of course not, they have more sense, and they don't need to.
But most of all it is plain to see; they haven't been here for several hundred years, mixing with the natives culturally, adding to the culture of the country, drawing on the culture of the country, defining the culture of the country through an organic process that defies the sort of segragation/ separation that latter day "Ulster Scots" seperatists are keen to impose on it.
Regards,
Harry.
Regards
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Ulster was thelast Gaelic region of Ireland, as it was the last to be planted. Much of Antrim and Down was not affected. The North Antrim connection to Scotland goes back to the kingdom of Dalriada when we more or less planted Scotland. Or as Paddy Maloney used to say "We gave the bagpipes to Scotland and they still haven't got the joke".
Ulster Scots was invented as part of the peace process, to introduce the idea of "Parity of Esteem". Now we couldn't very well have GAA on TV, Irish language programmes on Radio Ulster, and Irish music all over the place, not to mention grants for the GAA and Irish language, if we did not have something on the "other" side. Now the politicians were not going to promote "Orangeism" unless there were serious changes, hence the need for Ulster Scots.
To most the whole idea is a joke, such as Glencairn Gairidines or whatever, and treated as such. The music bit was designed to show that although we thought we were two separate tribes, it turns out we have much in common, as an Ulster Scots reel is identical to an Irish reel. We just have to pretend it is different, to justify giving grants out to this "culture". The idea was to introduce Irish music to more "unionists", or at least make them aware of it, and that it was not "fenian" music or "Chucky" songs. Fenian means Catholic, and Chucky means republican or rebel songs.
However Ulster is much like the Southern States of America and the "poor white trash" resist all these middle class attempts at harmony, such as the Belfast Giants ice hockey team, Ulster Rugby team winning in Europe, and even the "gentlefication" of N.Ireland soccer team, where supporters now wear green and white colours, and are trying to get the yobs out.
However the "Poor White Trash" in some areas have attempted to hijack the Ulster Scots thing, on Loyalist web sites and such, to show that they are a separate tribe. I do not think the politicians envisaged this, they just assumed everybody would see through the charade and accept or ignore it. I believe that this is what concerns Harry, because as I said earlier, the Ulster Scots thing is either ignored or seen as a joke.
So while I agree with Ptarmigan that the music bit is harmless, I think I can see where Harry is coming from. Dissidents and yobs and the uneducated can cause a lot of damage, to the Ulster Scots concept and the GAA in Co.Antrim as we saw recently.
Most on this site however are concerned with the music aspect, as this is not a political site. The music bit is harmless, because there isn't really a separate Ulster Scots tradition. ITM, Scottish traditional, Breton et al, have all intermingled yes, but "Ulster Scots" was an invention for political reasons.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Harry B - in all things to do with Ulster I must defer to you and others like Ptarmigan who actually live there, and say very interesting things about it (I remember your post about how as a small child you wanted to twirl a stick like the Protestants, not knowing about the political divide..).
Looking at the Agency website, I suspect you're right about the possible dangers of a rebranded "Ulster Scots" identity along the lines it indicated. Its movers and shakers might well succeed in inventing a culture to further aggressive aims. But whether its components last, depends on their individual viability - who (allowing for postwar suppression, and maybe Neo-Nazis) remembers Nazi camp-fire songs now?
The language bit seems bizarre - like much in Ulster, from an English perspective. If kids start out by learning to speak, write and spell in a local form of old Lowland Scots, are they all going to be equally adept at communicating with the rest of the English-speaking world in recognisable spoken and written standard English? Or will one or the other have to be beaten into them for a number of years, as was my generation's experience of Latin?
I'm not aware that the Irish Government's programme of compulsory learning of Irish was very successful in inculcating a general love of the language in the nation's youth. The language hung on anyhow. If the Ulster Scots dialect is living, it will hang on anyhow. If it is suddenly pumped full of words last used in the time of Burns and a whole slew of newly-invented spellings, a lot of its real speakers might just want to crawl away.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
The language is a dialect, like "geordie" Nicholas, not a language, although you may dispute that (smiley).
I think Harry is right to fear a new super "ulster scots" race, but it is confined to a few hard line loyalists, and is not serious.
I also think Ptarmigan is right to resist this, by being involved in the music end.
By the way, Harry lives in Dublin, I think. Just said that to get his blood boiling.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Nicholas,
The 'extremes' are not as extreme as you may think (neo-nazis etc.). The Reverend Ian Paisley is a commited Ulster-Scot lobbyist and has secured serious political clout for his cause up to a European level of government. In fact he is the main political clout of 'the movement':
"The pre-eminent guardians of that Biblical truth in the United Kingdom today are the Protestant Ulster-Scots."
The man is a member of the Loyalist Apprentice Boys of Derry and a catholic hating nut: he resigned from the orange order in '62 after the order elders failed to expell one of its members for attending a catholic mass. He is a protestant fundamentalist who believes that the pope is the antichrist: During a visit by Pope John Paul II to the European Parliament in 1988, Paisley shouted "I denounce you, Anti-Christ!" several times before being ejected.
He is also leader of the largest political party in the North of Ireland the DUP.
Any cause for concern there? Did a few hard line loyalist vote his party most popular?
Now, lets all smile and play our wee tunes shall we.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Ian Paisley is a politician, an exceptional "get things done" M.P if you are a constituent.
But he is a politician, and after votes. He has absolutely nothing to do with Ulster Scots music or culture. He has a lot to do with Loyalist Websites, misleading working class people and filling their heads full of hatred, to get votes.
Playing a few wee tunes is an excellent idea. Maybe living in the Free State has made you lose touch, Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
From the same, moderate, Ulster Scots Agency website:
DUP Leader speaks up for Ulster-Scots
DUP MEP Dr. Ian Paisley intervened in a European Parliament debate yesterday, on language funding to secure special consideration for Ulster-Scots.
The Irish language, which is designated as a ‘working’ but not an ‘official’ language, was the subject before the Strasbourg House when the DUP leader got up to demand that the ‘principle of equality’ be applied.
He asked that there should be a level playing field of support for all languages, and was supported by other MEP’s, including one from Cornwall, where the language issue is also alive.
Commissioner David Byrne undertook to give ‘this blossoming language’ sympathetic consideration when funding is reviewed.
Lord Laird of Artigarvan, Chairman of the Ulster-Scots Agency, said that he was delighted with the intervention of Dr. Ian Paisley.
“We must always ensure that the rights of the Ulster-Scots language are not forgotten about. I am very pleased with the progress that Dr. Paisley has made in Strasbourg on behalf of the Ulster-Scots language.”
“This is yet a further move in the right direction.” Lord Laird concluded.
Dr. Paisley said he was very pleased by the ‘good reception’ across the House for his proposal.
You were saying?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Minutes from the UK parliment:
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much was spent on the promotion and support of (a) Irish and (b) Ulster-Scots cultural activities excluding the Irish language expenditure, identified in his answer of 13 January, Official Report, column 57, in each of the past five years. [17084]
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much the promotion and teaching of the Irish language in English-medium schools cost in 1995-96, broken down by (a) teacher costs, (b) teaching materials, (c) inspectorate and examination costs, (d) teacher training, and (e) overhead costs. [17083]
Rev. Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people have been employed in each of the last five years by direct and indirect Government funding on the promotion and teaching of (a) the Irish language and (b) the Ulster-Scots language. [17085]
He's very interested in the Irish language all of a sudden.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Hail the Director of the Ulster- Scots heritage Council since 1997.
http://www.dup.org.uk/NelsonMcCausland.asp
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Gregory Campbell, also DUP:
"He has consistently pressed Government on the need for greater investment in the employment, tourism and transport sectors for the Coleraine and Limavady areas. He has led local delegations to Ministers on issues such as the increase in second homes on the North Coast, the under-funding of the Ulster Scots cultural identity. "
http://www.dup.org.uk/GregoryCampbell.asp
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Man... this website is really edifying lately. Keep going fellas, I'm learning a lot from these threads.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Like I said, he is a politician, that's what they do for constituents and votes. You have been down South too long, with all the brown envelopes full of money for the politicians. Up here, after 80 years, you suddenly need policies and to play the game.
I think he also managed to get the funding for the GAA pitches in Ballymena.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Go on ya girl ye! Elaine McMillan, DUP:
"Active in encouraging cultural identity by promoting dance through the Citadel Ulster Scots Heritage Council. "
Active in encouraging cultural identity by promoting dance through the Citadel Ulster Scots Heritage Council.
H.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
I'm interested in Harry's "let's all smile and play our wee tunes shall we". On the one hand it seems a slightly sarcastic admission of the futility of the music, in the grand scheme of things. And on the other hand it could be taken as the music being the perfect escapism from the grand scheme of things.
I kind of like it either way actually
By the way, is Jeremy on Holiday?
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
To suggest that Big Ian, with all his lobbing for the money and clout behind the 'Ulster Scots' spin machine, has nothing to do with 'Ulster Scots' music and culture is simply incorrect.
He's not out 'Och-ing and 'Ooo-ing, or dancing or fiddling (in the musical sense). But he is seriously getting things done for the people who are. I'm quite aware of how effective a mover and shaker he is. Its all part of the game.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
***THIS HAS BEEN A PARTY POLITICAL BROADCAST ON BEHALF OF THE ULSTER UNIONIST PARTY.***
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
At last you realise it is a GAME, like N.Ireland politics for the last 16-20 years, all carefully planned. From 1952 until last year or so Big Ian never mentioned Ulster Scots in his life. The type of thing Ptarmigan is trying to promote is light years away from Loyalist web sites, and Big Ian.
The reason that DUP and Sinn Fein get most votes is not all bigotry, they actually do things unlike the others, so praise is indeed due to Elaine McMillan and the others. But it is a GAME.
And by the way Llig leahcim, or my old buddy Michael, I know, and I think you do, what Harry meant when he said "let's smile and play our wee tunes", and it was neither of your suggestions.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Did a few hard line loyalist vote his party most popular?
asks Harry.
I voted for Willie McCrea, because he was of immense help to our tenants association. He is also musical, to keep in line with the site. Find his CDs on google.
# Posted on September 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Sir Bliss,
Oh I remember Wild Bill and Big Ian's 'gigs' out the front of Belfast City Hall. Ian is certainly not musical: his renditions of those dour hymms I can only liken to a grizzly bear's fart slowed down and elongated considerably.
I'm afraid I see too many interrelations between the rise of the 'Ulster Scots' cultural identity, changes in unionist identity and the funding of cultural Norn' Irlnd' to accept your seperation of grass roots/ political and cultural will.
There has been an increasing number of 'Ulster Scots' events and organisations drawing on grass roots 'Ulster Scots' performers, the will and funding for these are inseperable and relate directly to political moves.
I realise there are more moderate political elements at work. Where is the Ulster Scots Agency (who sport a link to Dick's Stuff) getting their funding from? Did that come about from some political vacuum?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
They get their funding to justify all the money given to Irish Language, Gaa and "Nationalist" culture. I already explained, it was to create a parity of esteem. It was never going to work by simply treating all as equals, and giving Catholics equality, they have to pretend that the other side need something as well.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
it's a sad world when you're expected to change your language every time some political nobheads hijack a term (or "sport a link" to your site)
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Bren
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Read this site all the time, and often with some glee, as the authors may have the odd well-intentioned misconception of 'Irishness'. which I find deliciously funny. More on that one later.
But above is a well written account by a native Irish person, who is a talented writer as well as musician, to wit Mr Harry B.
Let me at the outset declare my politics so that there can be no misunderstandings.
I am Irish-Scot with a dab of English, Scandinavian and Greek.
The idea that a person born in Ireland of whatever background would want to create a new 'scottish' identity within the island of Ireland leaves me wriggling with laughter! Why for gawdsakes complicate what is so simple. Aint broke, why fix?
Walk along a Irish 'boreeen' in the summer months, late in the evening while you can yet smell the fresh baked oaten bread cooling in open windows. If it is a still evening you might, in some country places, hear a tune being played, or from an open window the news on a loud TV/Radio.
The counttry is still a small one, the island can be driven across in an afternoon.
The music as I can best recall it - all of it, both orange and green, - is a merry concert - Perhaps the troubles have stolen some of the laughter, but to me it is still music, and a happy thing.
Yes we were inspired by our neighbors , the USA, Wales, Scotland and England, and with the odd detour onto the mainland of Europe Nobody denies that the Irish have borrowed, and we have the forms to prove it. The Jig, Italy, the Reel, Scotland, the Hornpipe, England and the Polka from eastern Europe. Yes we have older forms - long dances, sets, slips and the rest.
Still it needs be emphasised again and again that to the average Irish person 'this trad' is a very small part of the possible entertainment on a night out. So often trad is a labor of love, and as Harry already pointed out, this genre thrives under adversity. No wonder then that we have today many non Irish exponents of the art who are international stars.
So when it is supposed, by Mr Hamilton above, that Irish trad is most profitably played by natives, I think he does not want to look at the band playing in Bunratty Castle THIS weekend .Ouch!
Really people, It doesn't matter who plays it, but it does matter that whoever is playing Irish trad, plays it well. And that includes the marching music of the 12th as well as the dance music.
My 10c
Oh and before I go, have a gander at YouTube, for some great Irish music.
Love yall
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Sir Bliss,
I am not in disagreement with your 'parity of esteem' statement. It's the likes of big Ian who will make sure that the 'i's are dotted and that all is in order for 'Ulster Scots' funding, as can be plainly seen from the quotes above.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Can anyone link this back into tunes and music without politics? Or, at the very least, can you explain how this funding is being used to promote Ulster-Scots music with some specific examples?
With regard to the language / dialect, is it such a bad thing to want to preserve? If there was a load of money made available to preserve the Shetland dialect / language would people be up in arms, or is it all only political? Just curious.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Andy V
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Re: Funding Info from the (government agency) Arts Council NI report:
"Music"
· "There is a lack of confidence as to the definition of Ulster-Scots
traditional music; this is the basic issue that has to be tackled before
there can be any development in this area.
· Promoting a major music event could be a trap – if it is to be promoted
it cannot be allowed to fail but there is not the ability/resources to
deliver it at this time.
· The big need is for more small events.
· Ulster-Scots traditional music development needs a development
infrastructure if it is to succeed.
· Music is not a strength at this time.
· Given the choral tradition in Northern Ireland, there should be the potential to establish an Ulster-Scots Choral Society.
· The BBC programme (made by Ian Kirk-Smith) on musical traditions
was highlighted as a significant contributor to generating interest in
and respect for the musical tradition, as it currently exists within the
community..."
Do you get the spin? Interesting reading.
From: www.artscouncil-ni.org/departs/all/report/research/art_of_ulster_scots.pdf
Ulster Scots Agency (from their website):
Financial Assistance
The Ulster-Scots Agency has as its remit “the promotion of greater awareness and use of Ullans1 and of Ulster-Scots cultural issues, both within Northern Ireland and throughout the island”.
Within this remit the aim of the Agency is to -
• promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster-Scots as a living language;
• encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture;
• promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots
The Agency is empowered to offer financial assistance to those groups which -
• wish to undertake programmes which fall within the Agency’s remit;
• would not otherwise have the necessary resources to do so without the Agency’s financial input;
• meet the necessary criteria for the award of assistance.
You can get an idea of how much government 'empowers' them to offer assistance from their report for 2000: http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/aboutus-annualreport.asp
No subsequent yearly report for some reason.
Testimonials from the Agnecy's funding work:
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/granttestimonials.asp
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Andy, you said - "If there was a load of money made available to preserve the Shetland dialect / language". Now I know many see the motives behind the funding as sinister but it makes me wonder how folks interested in the ancient Cornish language went about obtaining funding to help promote an interest in that 'dead' language & did they receive much opposition to public money being used in that way?
I've no doubt Cornish folk displayed a "lack of confidence" as to what it was & how relevent it was to them.
Likewise, if they had promoted a major event on this language, I'm sure they too would have had the same fears regarding failure.
I'm sure it also needed a "development infrastructure if it was (is) to succeed."
I'm sure they were also very well aware that the ancient Cornish language was not a "strength" at that time.
I'm sure if they'd been able to establish a Cornish Choral Society, it would have helped them promote the language & raise peoples awareness.
It appeared to me that that BBC programme wasn't actually trying to ‘invent’ something at all, but rather simply, as they said - "generating interest in and respect for the musical tradition, as it currently exists within the community..."
So if does exist, why not promote it, I'm sure all the musicians here can see the sense in that?
I personally don't believe that Ulster-Scots is a language, for I grew up listening to much of that dialect being spoken by my grandparents who were from the Scottish Borders, so to me it is simply another branch of that dialect, very much like the ‘Geordie’ dialect.
However, I am no expert on languages, but I do believe there are many, many knowledgeable & learned scholars out there who will be able to determine if it is, or is not, a 'real' language, so why not let them explore the possibility & if in the process they help preserve some of that dialect, then good luck to them.
I’m sure though, anyone looking for any official funding has to portray a very enthusiastic & positive front.
As an aside, can anyone here tell me what it was that the travelling people of Ireland spoke?
I'd be curious to know if they spoke an old Romany language & was that a form of Eastern European language or a branch of Gaelic?
Also, has that been studied & preserved?
So Andy, I’m not sure if any of that helps to answer your questions either, but like most subjects there are always more than two ways of looking at them.
What is the truth behind it all?
Ah, there’s the rub!
So what is truth?
“Questions about what is a proper basis on which to decide whether and to what extent words, symbols, ideas and beliefs may be said to be true, whether for a single person or an entire community or society, are among the many important questions addressed by the theories introduced below.”
To get a better understanding of what truth really is, you might want to read this whole page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
There are fascinating chapters on, for example, ‘Types of truth’, where it says:
“Metaphysical subjectivism holds that the truth or falsity of all propositions depends, at least partly, on what we believe.
In contrast, metaphysical objectivism holds that truths are independent of our subjective beliefs.
Except for propositions that are actually about our beliefs or sensations, what is true or false is independent of what we think is true or false.”
So what do ‘you’ think Andy?
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
A lack of confidence as to what it is?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ time for my smiley
(funded by Disney Corp. int.)
Regards,
Harry (at least I think I am).
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Lack of confidence - too many internal contradictions, perhaps:-
Ulster - where they live,
Scots - what they claim really to be,
Scots-Irish - a previous favourite term of Paisley's, now airbrushed out,
loyalist - rejecting a Scottish royal line in favour of continental ones,
based in London, and ostensibly devoted to the queen,
hard-line loyalist - less, not more, committed to life by the UK rule book,
rejectionist - of Ireland in general, Westminster, the UK in general, and
above all Rome in its various manifestations,
Ian Paisley - who is going to the EU, often seen as a limb of
Rome, to get validation and funding for all this...
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Bloody website. I wrote a long, discusive post and I think it may have been eaten. Maybe it will appear.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
I find its worth highlighting and copying a post every few mins. and just before you send if its taking you a while to type it. If the page has expired (which happens fairly quickly) you will loose any typing when you click 'send' as far as I can see.
regards,
H.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
I've actually thought of one Ulster Scot musician - the singer Len Graham, one of whose albums is on this site (under "recordings"). The song titles include some with Scottish references. I'd only ever thought of him as, well, an Irish singer. The surname indicates his predecessors came from the Border country north of Carlisle.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Nicholas, I think you need to be careful with assumptions like that. After all, just because Len sings songs which refer to Scotland, & was born in Ulster, doesn't automatically mean he is an Ulster Scot, does it?
For example, if you check another of his albums you'll see tracks like "Ar Bhruach na Carraige Báine" & "Tha M'Intinn Raoir/Siúdaibh Bhalachaibh". So if he's singing in Irish, does that automatically class him as being a Nationalist.
http://www.musicinscotland.com/acatalog/Len_Graham_CDs.html
It's enough for me to think of Len simply as an Ulster man, meaning he was born in the province of Ulster by the way, & is one of the finest singers around.
I don't really care what his politics are.
For others a traditional singer's politics may be a big issue.
One of Scotland's finest traditional singers Dick Gaughan, used to fill his albums with beautiful traditional songs & I bought those, but once he started filling them with political songs, I'm afraid I lost interest.
Silver Spear, when that happens to me, I just click back to the previous page & my post is still sitting there, so I copy it - log in again & simply paste it in again. ...... well it works for me.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
I think Len might disagree with the whole silly notion of silly designation, particularly in the context discussed . Why not ask him instead? It would be the polite thing to do.
In the words of the great singer himself:
"Do me justice, treat me fair, and I'll not be discontented,
And I'll not be laughed at anywhere, but highly re(e)presented".
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Highlighting and copying is a good idea, but the back button can also retrieve disappearing posts. At least it works for me that way, but I'm on a Mac.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Ah ha Button, so that's why I find that easy too - Im also on a Mac!
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Hmmm... Macs vs. PCs.... could there be any allegory here?
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Firstly may I say that while you all rallied round Silver Spear when he lost his post, no-one gave two monkeys when I lost my masterpiece.
Andy Newcastle, the dialect will always survive, and so it should. The joke bit is that it needed to be promoted as a language, so forms are printed in English, Irish and Ulster Scots. At the last census there was a form in the Ulster Scots language. For guidance on the front it said;
"Hae a look at this afore ye fill in ure forme"
Hence I think we all agree it is not a language.
As luck would have it my branch of the Civil Service is under threat of closure. We, the union, wrote to the 5 main political parties in N.Ireland for support and the only one to reply, and invite us to a meeting today, was the DUP. So we went to see Nigel Dodds M.P and in the waiting room lo and behold was the newest edition of the "Ulster Scot" newspaper.
It was printed, entirely, in English.
By the way Len Graham has been singing long before Ulster Scots was invented.
In my town there is an "Ulster Scots" club, known to one and all as "The Kneebreakers", frequented mostly by supporters of Glasgow Rangers football team. Now the club/bar is being expanded, with grants naturally, and when it is finished I will seek a booking. It would be worth about £100,000 in grants if they had an Irish Traditional group, reaching across the divide and all that crap, so I should be able to charge a small fortune.
Well the workplace is closing down, and as the Godfather was fond of saying, "It's simply business, not personal".
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
OK, Ptarmy, Len Graham might not be an "Ulster Scot", or one of THOSE "Ulster Scots"! - just the surname indicates his ancestors came from a particular part of Scotland, that's all. And I hadn't noticed or realised that he sang in Irish.
(Perhaps he doesn't count as "Ulster Scots" but "Scots Irish"!...Enough of this crap, my brain hurts!)
Roving through the admittedly not always reliable pages of Wikipedia, I found that a lot more English or Normans had settled in Ireland in the Middle Ages than I realised. Come the Reformation and Tudor/Stuart/Cromwell invasions, the descendants of these earlier Eng./
Normans had completely adopted Irish language and customs, and were determined to remain Catholic. They were major opponents of the c16/c17 invasions.
Presumably, they were subsequently dragged back into the Anglosphere. But they'd made their point - nobody's doomed to be monolingual, even the English!
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Sorry to hear about the job going Mr.Bliss.
Interesting insight into a potential 'Ulster Scot' cash incentive for you though:
"An mae tha Laird hae moorsy aen ya soowil".
Maybe you could throw a few 'anthems' past the Rangers boys and get back to us with some feedback. Do be careful though.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Rangers boys unfortunately are like Celtic boys up here, all they want to hear is the "Fields of Athenry", I kid you not.
Actually between Celtic and Rqngers fans the majority of the North appear to want to be Scottish. maybe we should just drop the Irish bit. People who display their Irishness by wearing a Celtic jersey is my pet hate, sorry about that.
And we don't do "party" songs, not even "Postman Pat".
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Postman Pat has red hair.
regards,
H.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Nicholas, all those great Irish names, Fitzpatrick, Fitzgerald, etc are Norman. Even Patrick is French.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Even after much consideration and handwringing, I am bound to admit, I haven't a clue as to what an Ulster Scot might be?
Is Mr Ptarmigan one? Is Mr Bliss one?
If so, does one born in Scotland and living in Mexico qulaify as an Aztec-Scot?
Perhaps if one's name is Scottish like Mr Paisley, perhaps the label could be applied as a contrast to say a Ulster -Aztec.
And so what about the Pakis in Ireland, or in Co Down Ireland are they Ulster Pakis?
Do all these neo-Irish people get a grant for speaking bad English?
About the attempt to make Lowlans official language of the 6 counties my Scottish pal Archie said ' thats a load a ????, they canna talk ' and said no more.
It's getting very complicated for the rest of us Scotties! Why not just declare war on Estonia and send Paisley back home there to his own kind? It would do him good to rub up against some old cold bag like himself. Perhaps it would cure him of his insanity as well.
Love yall.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by Schlongbow
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Your use of the term "Pakis" illustrates that you do not have a clue about a lot of things.
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
ha ha, quite right
# Posted on September 7th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Paisley has his own church, his own Orange Order, and his own political party; quite obviously, the next step is to have his own nationality, to which others may subscribe as they wish...
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Some random thoughts..............
I think that Bliss's earlier post has been missed in all this - Clearly Dalriada = UlsterScotland
However, the lingua franca for the area [on both sisdes of the water] was a form of Gaelic and NOT scots.
There is a greater preponderance of 'scottish' tunes in Antrim than just about any other area except perhaps north Donegal and the Ards. Loads of flings, schottisches, strathspeys, etc. I would argue that this does give the Antrim repertoire a more scottish voice than many other parts of the country.
That's not to say that there isn't a swap over between the two 'traditions' in the North. Many pipe bands such as McNeillstown, Field Marshall Montgomery, etc have taken on many irish tunes and given their spin.
So - I dont not feel threatened by this whole notion and would go further - if someone BELIEVES or FEELS themselves to be Ulster Scots then it's a tad difficult to argue with that. Is Ulster Scots or Scots Irish any less valid a label than Irish American, or British Asian?
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by breandan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Where is Irelamerica or Britasia?
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by breandan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Have you heard of Israeliraq? It's a region that Britamerica is establishing.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Mr. Carson wrote: "Clearly Dalriada = UlsterScotland"
Indeed, Breandan. This is the 'truth' for many who are not overly concerned with the actual cultural realities that exist in the north now.
Many natives (of all ethnic identities) would disagree with the above equation of course. And there's a problem.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
BTW, does anyone remember that quare little book that was brought out some years ago (before peace process) by some dude with UDA links? Was about all things 'dalriada'
It was called 'The Cruthan' or something. It seemed to herald the birth of the 'indepedant Ulster' heads. Claimed stout Ulster folk were pictish left overs, thouroughly distinct, who saved the world or something.
That was my first exposure to this sort of guff if I remember rightly. May have been published by 'Blackstaff Press'. Can't seem to find it on the web.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Re: Harry’s Cruthan book said "Ulster folk were pictish left overs"
Well check out this video on 'Pictish Scotland - 85 AD'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnyIkshuSck
“ They were so named because their bodies were inked with pictures”
Ah ha, so could this explain why we see so many tatoos displayed on the 12th!
Breandan, you say that you don’t feel threatened & I don’t get the impression that many folk up here actually do feel threatened, either.
You also mentioned Irish Americans – & isn’t it true that large areas of certain American cities were almost completely taken over by one group of people or another, including the Irish Americans & wasn’t this, as much as anything else, just simply a sensible way of helping them to preserve their own culture & traditions, rather than some sinister plot by them to turn every American into an Irish American?
Or do we really believe that each group was actually plotting to take over America?
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Dick,
Did you get your reasoning style from editorials in The Sun?
Comparing the situation in the north with the conditions and realitites that greeted Irish and other emmigrants in the US is rediculous. It was a completely different situation then and now. As has been pointed out: the Ulster Scots can not boast a nation as 'the Irish' can/could, also they have no recognised, distinct culture, or, if they do, they haven't given any convincing evidence of it. Instead 'the movement' sets itself up under a racial banner, tries to formalise a little known regional dialect (from within a region) as a language, and claims traditional forms that have been resident, and by no means exclusive to their ideal racial profile, in Ireland for hundreds of years.
People can,of course, debate reasonably and sensibly without getting bogged down in the language of threat.
If I was on the rather shaky ground that you were I would find any sort of analysis threatening though. That's hardly my fault.
Fundamentalism and aspects of nationalism are probably the biggest dangers to peaceful existence in the world today, and maybe we should be aware of where they reside, and where they don't. An emerging nationalism is part of the 'Ulster Scots' invention wether you agree with it, contribute to it, or not. And there are all manner of fundamentalist conections as well as we have seen. I quite accept that these may be jumping on the bandwagon. If I were you, and was really trying to do something positive, I'd be glad that somebody was exposing them for what they were.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Trust Breandan to introduce hurling, how long before someone introduces Ulster scots shinty? Mind you, you were right on two things, hurling is the game and Dalriada and all that was obviously Gaelic speaking, as I pointed out Ulster was the last "real" Gaelic speaking region, well into the 17th century.
That book and such Harry is searching for is not worth the search. That was the time when we were being told that Cuhuillan was actually in the UDA, then called The Red Branch Knights. A load of twaddle.
I don't feel threatened either, because at the end of the day, like it or loathe it, the Yanks and Brits are insisting on a United Ireland, so that's that. I might feel threatened by the politics of the South, and our love for Bush and Blair.
Bush and Blair is actually the name of a lesser known slip jig, just to keep this on a musical topic.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Re: Ulster Scots/ Mr. Mac Bush. You might get a chuckle out of this BB.
"Scion of traitors and warlords: why Bush is coy about his Irish links: Tapestry artist reveals ancestors of US president as murderous bunch."
by Angelique Chrisafis, Ireland correspondent
It is perhaps not the best omen for US foreign affairs. Local historians in Wexford have discovered that George Bush is a descendant of Strongbow, the power-hungry warlord who led the Norman invasion of Ireland thus heralding 800 years of mutual misery. With a long line of Scots Irish presidents including Woodrow Wilson, the Irish are normally quick to claim US leaders as their own. But, despite President Bush's large Ulster Scots vote in the American Bible belt, Ireland had let his family escape the genealogical microscope.
But now Ann Griffin Bernstorff, an artist working on a tapestry to commemorate Ireland's Norman heritage, has discovered what she claims is the Bushs' missing Irish link..."
Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1399353,00.html
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
And to think I am one of those weedy liberal Guardian readers.
Strongbow wasn't Irish, French I believe. So his offspring and theirs etc would have become the Anglo-English, who along with the "native English" allied with the native Irish and the Anglo Irish at different times during the Cromwellian campaign. That bit is not completely factual, but if you ever read the Cromwell years in Ireland, it is something like that, about 6 different "ethnic" groups. Sounds like "The Life of Brian".
So is it any wonder we have "Ulster Scots". Of course as I said at the beginning, and Breandan helpfully agreed, they were originally Irish-Scots, when the Irish went to Scotland. When they came back, they were Scots-Irish. Recently that has narrowed to Ulster Scots.
I do appreciate your fears Harry, but believe me, no-one from either side will be allowed to disrupt the "Peace process". They will allow UDA "warlords" to remain in place to control others, but they will be involved in good honest crime, and not politics. The political warlords have all been removed or discredited.
So although some Loyalist websites are hijacking the Ulster Scots thing, it is as ridiculous as the Cuhuillan bit earlier.
And poor MrPtarmigan is working away in his own way, trying to cross the divide, and you have to give credit for that.
And be very afraid if you ever get me started about Bush.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
Yep, the article has more than a touch of Moore-ian 'enthusiasm' about it.
But then when did accuracy ever spoil a good history, eh?
Regards,
H.
# Posted on September 8th 2006 by Harry B
Re: Re: "Ulsterscotland": A Region?
"and our love for Bush and Blair." Bliss, sorry to hear about your job situation. If you do end up with time on your hands soon, perhaps you would consider joining these guys on their - 'World Tour'?
'The Blair Band':
http://www.myspace.com/theblairband
Wonder if they're familiar with that "lesser known slip jig" you mentioned?
# Posted on September 9th 2006 by Ptarmigan