Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Hey, this is fife and drum music, this is the way it is supposed to be. It's for marching (and battling), not for listening... now if the guy had played the drum on track 2, that would have been tasteless, but he didn't, he probably knows better
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I only saw the first two tunes the first time I watched this Len. For some reason the clip jammed. Now that I have seen the whole clip I do tend to think it is a pity that we are not allowed to comment on the clip, at YouTube.
The reason, I reckon, is that they were afraid that the 'No Surrender' at the end would probably have provoked some antagonistic responses.
It's a pity, cause I think that without the political comment at the end, this would have been a much more useful demonstration that 'Ulster Scots Music' is indeed a blend of Scottish, Irish & Ulster Music.
An opportunity lost, perhaps?
By the way, not only does Geordie McAdam play & march to Fife tunes & Scots & Irish tunes on the Fiddle, but if you make it to the Ulster American Folk Park's Appalachian & Bluegrass Festival this weekend, you'll see Geordie belt out Old Time & Bluegrass tunes with the best of them! There's certainly nothing one-dimensional about that man!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Oh & Len, just for the record, you may notice that the girl nearest to the Lambeg does tend to cover her ears. I personally think that some instruments, including the Lambeg, are probably best enjoyed outdoors, like the noble Highland Bagpipe, Breton Bombarde & Binou!
I don't think you would fancy any of the above joining in at your local session! I'm sure there are other instruments which could be added to that list of 'session undesirables'
The great Highland warpipes have their uses in small, crowded session rooms. I heard that in such a session here a while back a man got up and started a song that was probably going to be lugubrious and lengthy, and (it being Folk Festival time) the place was crammed with people raring to play tunes. A piper just behind the man opened up and blew the song into orbit.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ask Geordie to play you 'The White Coon' on the fife. He loves it, "Did you ever hear of a white nigger!" was his accompanying folk lore on the night he played it for me... oh, sweet culture.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
If that guy ever showed up at our session with one of those drums I'd quickly have him 'surrender' it so we could use it as a table for our session. The one we have now is too high, but it's round and the same size as that. The lip around the edge would be handy too so our drinks don't slide off.
(For those of you who don't know, the 12th of July is a harmless Irish cultural event that has absolutely NOTHING to do with misoyinist, anti-catholic sectarianism. Whatsoever. At all. Seriously)
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Are you sure, Harry? It looks to me like a might be some sort of lambeg memorial service complete with lambeg corpses lying about in front of the stage.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
“Don't look now but your predjudice is showing Tarmi - or is the bowler covering the ears?”
Naw, naw Duffgen, surely ye ken that a true Scotsman, like masel’, wid ne’er be seen wearin’ yin o’ thur Bowlers! Sure, they’re only fur Sassenachs!
Now nae drawers under ma kilt, that’s mair ma style!
Anyway, doesn’t ‘prejudice’ involve - “an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.”?
....... & the fact is I did spend a whole year playing for the Banchory Morris team, up in Aberdeenshire, so I myself do in fact at least have some little first hand knowledge of the world of the Morris Man.
I wonder though, how much actual first hand experience you have had yourself, of the world of the Fife & Lambeg Drum?
Now I’m not sure where the Lambeg & the Morris team fall, in the derision stakes, but they are both pretty popular targets.
However, I at least tried to soften my barb with a wee smiley, to let you know I was only funnin!
I suppose this thread was bound to attract a bucket load of sarcastic comments, but all those progressive, forward thinking wags who jump on this easily accessible bandwagon should remember what sarcasm really is:
“Why sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?
Because it is only marginally better than being witless.
Vikram Karekatte, North Sydney
Because it is the form commonly employed by politicians.
Hugo Stiegl, Dora Creek
Sarcasm is scornful, contemptuous and taunting, hence it is rightfully the lowest form of wit.
Premila Singh, Strathfield”
....... & I should know - I'm an expert!
So, will the next witless comedian please step forward ................
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Wow what a noise !! I used to love watching the 12th July march in Liverpool as a kid. You could hear the drums coming miles away and all the dressing up was great, I so wanted to be Queen Mary in her long dress and curls, of course I only ever got to play the Virgin Mary being of the catholic persuasion, but I did look good in blue. Anyway I agree it is never going to sound good indoors this is definitely outdoor stuff and if they beat the drum instead of each other thats fine by me.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Good to read your positive, open minded, thoughts there flossie, very refreshing. Of course, I'm sure you know you are not the only 'Catholic' who ever enjoyed the parades - it's not the first time I've come across ITM-ers who confessed that they regularly used to sneak along to the parades to enjoy listening to the tunes.
I personally felt this video perhaps demonstrated another wee half step forward, as it was demonstrating the playing of 'Irish Music', being played & enjoyed in an Orange Hall – Gordon Bennett! Something that, not too long ago, might have been unthinkable, & although it may well have happened quite regularly, I get the feeling it was not the sort of thing to be displayed &/or demonstrated in public.
I believe then that anything which even minutely helps to break down that old child-like 'them & us' mindset which has plagued the North for so long, surely must be welcomed by any right thinking person.
Let's be honest, it is all too easy to pour scorn & derision on this sort of demonstration, especially by those who have no first hand experience, or knowledge, of 'their' musical culture - but it doesn't really help - does it?
I take my hat off to the likes of Gary Hastings, aye & yourself Harry too, for not being afraid to demonstrate in your recordings how much you enjoy playing those catchy wee Fife Tunes. Those recordings, I feel, have been a very positive step forward & I commend you both.
Of course we all know that IT musicians have always openly embraced all good tunes, aye including many, many Piping & Scottish ones too, & up here, even some from the Fifing tradition as well. But, for a long, long time there has not been that freedom, for those from the 'other persuasion' to openly show that they too enjoy playing good Irish tunes from the 'other's camp'.
You can call me a crazy, optimistic fool if you like, but I just felt this was one of those occasions when a little encouragement might have been more appropriate than silly jibes & point scoring. Small steps, eh, small steps ...............
"The only thing worse than sarcasm is ignorance" - sometimes you can't actually blame someone for being ignorant, but those who practice the ‘noble art’ of sarcasm, are always guilty!
“A person's disposition to sarcasm is sometimes viewed as a symptom of concealed anger.” Perhaps the North is moving away from an anger phase & into a sarcasm phase – maybe that would be a step in the right direction?
Next thing you know, they might all learn to laugh together, now that’d be something worth waiting for, wouldn’t it?
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I thought an 'enlightened' person like you, with your superior, blow in's view of the northern situations would be above pointing the finger of guilt. And so you become part of 'the problem'.
I play the music and rejoice in the number of people who avail of its benifits and who don't use it as a identifyer to entrench their unreasonable identites (this STILL goes on across religious/political/cultural Ireland of course), but I can't help seeing the problems: ingrained superiority, racism, sectarianism, the scramble for 'ownwership' of aspects of culture that simply have never existed in that way... I am angry with those qualities that continue the problem, luckily I can seperate them from the better nature that I belivev all human beings possess. To deny that these factors exist would be a terrible mistake. They are the real enemy. Where you never angry about something, Dick? Seems to me that certain aspects of this get under your skin. Anger needn't be a bad thing if you observe and control it.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
As a refugee from L'pool I'm well acquainted with the solipsism practised on 12th. Ptarmigan. I'm impressed by your impeccable ( Scottish) Morris credentials--were you drummed out ?
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ooooh! well whip me with a wet lettuce leaf, I dared to call someone guilty of being sarcastic - or is that a hanging offense now?
But remember I did qualify the accusation, by confessing first – ma laud!
Harry, I'm sorry if my views come across to you as being superior, I feel myself to be more detached than superior & folks up here are always very quick to point out how I have absolutely no right to have, or express, an opinion because I & previous generations of my family weren't actually born here & didn't suffer, despite having lived here for 16 years, reared a son here, paid my taxes etc etc.
I know, I should just sit in a corner & say nowt!
Well you know what, I sometimes think that too many people around here have been made to feel afraid to express how they feel, for too long.
You speak of all - “the problems” & we are all well aware that there are many, many problems, but let’s not allow these problems to blind us, we shouldn’t stop feeling positive about the future & clutching at straws & welcoming all those little moves in the right direction.
You speak of rejoicing, well I 'rejoice' too, but in all those little steps forward, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant - after all, the longest journey always starts with one step.
"Were you never angry about something..?" - sure, but I don't get angry about this, just frustrated I suppose & a little sad sometimes that the process forward is such a slow one.
"And so you become part of 'the problem'" - Well, if I’m honest, I would have to accept that everyone who lives up here is probably part of the problem, in one way or another, I suppose I’m damned if I do & damned if I don't! - but I’d rather be damned for at least trying.
Surely though, you can’t have it both ways can you, I mean, if I am part of the problem, then surely I do have a right to an opinion after all?
I think one of the really big problems though is actually people looking back all the time - a little bit of forward thinking could go a long way!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Sorry Duffgen, cross posting & I missed your comments.
If I had been 'drummed out' of that Morris team it would hardly have added to my 'street cred'. No I think, like many a boxer, I'd just heard one bell too many!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
I thought you placed quite a bit of emphasis on that you were an outsider and that by this you seemed to imply some sort of impartiality (superior to partiality?). That was certainly what you were implying and stating in previous discussions.
I haven't the slightest inkling to ask or tell you to be quiet. You seem to enjoy going on about stuff too much for me to do that. But don't expect me to buy into your version of reality. Feel free to question mine... in content preferably (i.e. not resorting to silly, irrelevant personal stuff)
Your optomistic outlook may well have its place, my realistic outlook comes from the streets of inner city Belfast as it was during the hunger strikes, and from no small understanding and direct experience of ITM in all parts of Ireland. It has its place too.
Frustration IS anger; anger that you are not getting your way. Sometimes, when what people feel like doing proves detrimental to their fellow man, even their own children, then they should consider its sources and what good or harm there is in expressing it. Otherwise they will probably reinvorce harmful patterns and damage their children. Accepting people expressing whatever the hell they want is extremely nihilistic especially if it proves harmful to others (intollerance, prejudice, violence etc...)
Knowledge doesn't blind. Knowledge can point the way to experience. Experience informs knowledge.
Looking at what is happening now and looking at the future are not seperate, now and the future are not seperate. The separation is our subjective construction. The future is completely informed by now. Good luck with your invention of a Rose Tinted Ulster. I'm holding out for the revolution of mind and spirit that is required to free all the people of Ireland together.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Right on, Harry! Your words echo something one of our forefathers here in the states said a long time ago. It was Thomas Jefferson who said, "Only an informed democracy will behave in a responsible fashion." Far too many people are imprisoned by their own ignorance when it comes to these sorts of issues. Being informed is one of humanity's last hopes all around this planet of ours. Thanks.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Harry, my outsider status is without question as I was born in Scotland & have only lived here for 16 years.
As for my impartiality, I declared that in this & previous discussions, simply to point out that my views are quite simply not those of someone who has been accepted, as far as I can see, as a member of any community up here.
When I write in my column about forthcoming Ulster Scots events, I am accused of being a loyal Ulster Scot & when I write about ITM events the Ulster Scots members of the community regard me as being some kind of a Nationalist.
I’m not sure where they put me when I regularly promote both in the same column!
I think if I wanted to feel ‘superior’ I could much more easily achieve that by just moving into one camp, & constantly slag off the others at every turn, like so many others up here.
I like to think I am probably more realistically regarded, by more open minded individuals as being someone who sits on the fence, be that a good or a bad thing.
In either camp one usually has loads of ‘friends’ but ‘the fence’ can be a very lonely place.
I am realistic enough too, to realize that I am hardly going to gain much in the way of support for my thoughts from anyone here, on an ITM Forum, but I never did start this to win friends & influence people.
If I were on a superiority kick as you suggest I, as a nobody, would hardly be demonstrating much common sense by debating the subject with an ITM superstar such as yourself, so I know full well I am not going to win any popularity contest here.
No, I assure you, that’s not what it’s about at all. If that were the case I could quite easily sit on an Ulster Scots Forum & rant & slag to my hearts content & feel as superior as Lord Muck himself!
No far be it from me to attempt to change anyone’s opinion here, I am simply putting my own thoughts forward & if anyone wishes to read them fair enough, if not, no sweat, but I’m certainly no evangelist. However, this is a discussion forum after all, so I thought that was the whole point, to discuss things, so in doing that, it’s very difficult for me not to give my opinions, that doesn’t necessarily mean I am trying to change anyone’s point of view here.
As for your “irrelevant personal stuff” (?) the only thing I mentioned of yours, which I think could fall into that bracket were the Fife tunes on your CDs, & if you object to me mentioning those, then I apologize. However, I genuinely thought that as this was a Music forum & we, or at least I, was discussing music, that they might have been in some way relevant to our present debate, but if I made a mistake there, then I’m sorry.
Our differing views are clearly based on very different past experiences but I never for one moment suggested, or even hinted, that your views weren’t relevant. You obviously have far more personal experience here than I, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that my views aren’t in any way relevant, they are just different, & I am surely allowed to express them.
It occurs to me though, that in the past up here, & indeed in many areas of conflict, an outsider has often been brought in to mediate, that is someone who’s views are not coloured & prejudiced by years of conflict, so perhaps, just maybe, there may be some small merit in the outsiders point of view, sometimes, don’t you think?
I certainly don’t apologize for my optimistic point of view, I would always rather see the pint tumbler half full, than half empty, & if that ,makes me naive, then so be it.
My frustration, by the way, is not born from me not getting my way, for I have no ‘way’ to get here, I am an outsider remember!
So there really is no prize for me personally if tomorrow I wake up & all the Nationalist & Loyalists are one big happily family, other than the fact that all my neighbours would be content & at peace with one another.
That would be truly wonderful – but I’d still be an outsider, so I am under no illusions on that score.
I’m afraid I just don’t see how musicians sitting in an Orange Hall playing Irish & Scottish & Ulster music together can be anything other than a positive step forward, after all there are many sessions where this regularly happens, but I felt the unusual quality here was to see it happening in an Orange Hall, & for it to be safe & to be ‘sanctioned’ if you like, for public display in this video form, is surely a small step forward, isn’t it?
I don’t see how anyone could feel so threatened by this short clip?
I know there is no going forward without the experiences of the past, but I would hope we can learn from them without always letting them dictate our present attitudes.
I’m afraid my views may well be rose tinted, that is the curse of the optimist I suppose, but be honest, we are not going to snap our fingers & find a solution that “frees all the people of Ireland”, overnight, so in the meantime I’ll carry on rejoicing, & encouraging, those small steps forward, in hopefully, the right direction.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Yes, *hopefully* the right direction. I'm not arguing that you are not doing your best at contributing to a new Irish nationalism. The 'superstar' BS is another dillusion BTW.
To clarify; I don't find you/ your nationality/ history offensive; just the situation that you're contributing to. I assure you its not personal.
As for the 'all laugh together' stuff. I've played music in contexts that transcend the latter day, trendy, PC nouveau antics, in the days when it wasn't trendy, in fact it was downright dangerous in instances. So the UUTV (Ulster(Unionist)Television) 'peace talk' (and its mostly talk) sounbites don't impres me much.
Decommision your ignorance people! Hand in your pride! Encase your self cherishing, egocentric little cartoons of yourselves in concrete and bury them in a bunker in Cavan!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Harry, I dont know who you are or what you do and I'm sorry to say that I don't actually know exactly what you are talking about ( ie'superstar' BS/ dillusion BTW) but personally, I believe, the sooner we stop allowing the things that happened to our parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents/greatgreatgrandparents to influence our present actions the better. Someone has to make the break and get on with living together . The music is a great place to start. I think maybe you have tried and had a hard time, but that is admirable and you should continue, it's the hard times that really mould us and are worth remembrance.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
“I'm not arguing that you are not doing your best at contributing to a new Irish nationalism.”
I think you must be confusing me with someone else there Harry. I’m afraid I actually find it very difficult to be enthusiastic about any form of Nationalism, & that includes Scottish Nationalism, for, as I see it, there is only a very thin line between Nationalism & Racism & Bigotry. In fact, I’m sure some form of racism exists within all nationalist movements.
No, I’m afraid, if I were a political animal, I would personally lean more towards Cosmopolitanism.
Oh, & if you did find my Scottish History offensive, I would perhaps worry about you, for, the way I see it, it’s actually that shared history of being under the thumb from our English neighbours for centuries, which should in fact help to bring Scots & Irish folk together, & of course it very often does.
You say you find the situation I am contributing to, to be offensive, but I think we have already agreed that, by just being here I am contributing, like everyone else up here. If I were to become a recluse though, I would perhaps be trying to absolve myself of all blame for the current ills, but surely to do nothing at all is still contributing, but in a negative way, so I think I’d rather be positive.
As all forms of Nationalism are absolutely riddled with feelings of “pride” & “self cherishing” I think perhaps it might serve this little island better if ‘everyone’, from all communities, was to step back from their own Nationalistic desires.
Perhaps, for all our sakes, it’s all forms of flag waving Nationalism which should in fact be “buried in that bunker, in Cavan.”
............... Then we could get on with the important work of - learning our own, & each other’s, tunes!
By the way, I didn’t need ‘smilies’ to improve my moral at the moment, thank you, for I enjoyed three hours of good tune playing with Captain Sensible, in Tom’s tonight & that’s guaranteed to put a smile on any musicians face!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Just keep in mind, folks, that at the end of the clip it proclaimed, "Never Surrender." If you go to the website of the person that posted it you'll find more of the same. I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music. There was a political, in-your-face message attached to it. A statement beyond the music was being broadcast.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Now, now PB, & I have already made mention of that political slogan at the end, & how I felt about it, so my views on it are quite clear, but you say:
"I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music."
So tell me, if someone came to our weekly session & filmed us, then stuck a clip on YouTube with some Irish Republican slogan at the end, I suppose you would feel justified in claiming that we, who just happened to be seen playing in the pub that night, in the clip, must therefore all be automatically classed as Republicans?
I agree, the man who produced the clip certainly had something political on his mind when he added that slogan at the end, but let's not get carried away & tar everyone who happened to be in the hall that night, with the same brush, out of hand!
We do get eejits in our session pub, from time to time, who think that just because we're sitting in an old Pub, in a predominantly Catholic town (75/25), playing Irish Traditional Music, that they can just strike up an old Rebel Song with impunity. But believe me, they are very quickly made to realize the error & folly of their ways, as the owners rarely let even the first line of any such provocative diddy be completed, before abruptly stifling the miscreants words.
I agree, the producer may well have been saying one thing with that slogan, but maybe, just maybe, the content was telling a rather different story?
For example, what about all the young children seen in the clip, can you really claim that, just because they were sitting round the hall listening to the music, that they must all be true blue Loyalists?
I often play trad music at Catholic Weddings - doesn't make me a Catholic!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Incidentally, it may be worth mentioning here, especially for all those of you who like to have everything in neat little boxes, & see everything in terms only of black & white, that it is not only IT musicians who have made much use of Scottish & Ulster tunes over the years.
PB pointed out the Goatwhacker’s website, & if you check out the page on Fifing tunes, you will see a number of Irish tunes that are, & have been, commonly played by Fifers.
“The tunes below are a collection of Irish and Scottish jigs and reels (mostly) but played in 4/4 time as hornpipes. Many are recognisable as modifications of traditional Irish tunes,”
I would also draw your attention to that excellent website on the Co Antrim Fiddle maker, Hugh Gordon, by Michael Costello.
“His love of music led him to show a great interest in the strong tradition of Ulster Scots fiddle music in the South Antrim area which was frequently performed in the open air, particularly at fairs, markets and other social gatherings in neighbouring towns and villages such as Antrim, Crumlin, Glenavy, Lisburn, Ballyclare, Moira, Lurgan and of course, Belfast.”
In particular, check out Michael’s page on the “Fiddle music in Co.Antrim in the 1830`s”
“This mixture of tunes Irish, Scottish and European is surely indicative of the origins of the Ulster Scots tradition of fiddle playing.”
The tune list there makes fascinating reading & you will see a number of Irish tunes & also, interestingly, a number of Scottish tunes which were perhaps at that time in the process of being adopted into the Irish tradition, like Lady (Anne) Montgomery, Miss Gordon’s Reel (possibly Lord Gordon’s Reel ?). I hope this wonderful manuscript, or at least its contents, are published at some stage so that we might all have an opportunity to examine the tune forms.
Long may this healthy cross pollination of tunes continue, both ways.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Flossie,
You have completely misread my post and my position.
The situation "on the ground" as it exists is quite different from the (what could be argued to be a) more positive side of the "Ulster Scots" phenomenon that Dick talks up.
I never 'tried' anything. I just played music with the people in my area whoever they were because I loved music and most things that went with it. It is the 'trying' of certain parties that makes me worry.
In the broader context, the "Ulster Scots" cultural/ racial label is being sold to unionists, outside traditional music hinterlands, as a new unionism ( which explains the mounting "Ulster Scots" content at orange and unionist meetings, events). This is not a good association for traditional music, which I firmly believe is inherently non-sectarian.
Dick, the harmful aspects of nationalism are the great cancer of the 20th century, and it has been the contributor to countless sufferings. I don't think anyone here has suggested that its a particularly a good idea, have they?
BTW, Dick re. your "if we were playing in a session and someone filmed us and then put a republican label on it..." reasoning. Remember that your friends were playing in an orange hall (an organisation that still marginalises women and dislikes catholics to say the least). Maybe if your imaginary session was flimed in a Sinn Fein advice centre you might have an argument that holds some water there.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I'm sorry you see the whole Ulster Scots 'thing' only in terms of doom & gloom Harry. I grant you it may not be perfect, but what is?
I myself, try to look for the positives & surely it is worthwhile trying to build on those, I mean, what is the alternative?
Politicians will always be 'trying' things, that is the nature of the beast.
Musicians for their part, as you well know, are usually just trying to play music together & it must be a step forward to be permitted to see them doing so in this setting, ........ one step at a time Harry eh?
I think the Sinn Fein advice centre is a little way down the road yet, don't you!
Let's be realistic, not farcical.
As for:
"Dick, the harmful aspects of nationalism are the great cancer of the 20th century, and it has been the contributor to countless sufferings. I don't think anyone here has suggested that its a particularly a good idea, have they?"
In which case I'll thank you not to class me as being a part of some form of "new Irish Nationalism"!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
If I was invited to an obvious republican (US political party) event and was filmed playing tunes and the closing titles included right-wing pro-war slogans -- I would deserve whatever negative associations I received. That's why you'll never see any such clips of me in such a place as that. Your fellas in goatwhacker's clip knew full well where they were and that they were being filmed.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I think it is deeply unwise, given the situation we are coming from in the North, to manufacture further constructs of "difference" between communities. You are directly contributing to that (by labeling strands of existing common culture as property of one ill defined racial group i.e. "Ulster Scots"), and I can only conclude that your refusal to accept that you are part of this is down to a serious blunder in reading the wider situation on your part (i.e. I am not concluding that you are doing it on purpose...that is a positive conclusion is it not?)
Your constant need to state your rather loose position on both the wider implications and the immediate cultural implications informs me that you are more hapless Don Quixote than unionist stooge.
If you want doom and gloom, look into the hearts and minds of your average sectarian biggot. You won't have to travel far.
I am for promoting common heritage and peace. The music is and has always been a free resource. Any labelling relating to ownership is negative in this context, especially when it panders to politicised movements (i.e. the "Ulster Scots"/unionist lobby, republicanism or whatever). What's more, I can see the causes of division and I won't shirk my responsibilities in confronting the idiocy of the sectarianism that I was brought up with and around. This is what it takes to bring about the conditions for peace: people who were brought up to stupidly and blindy accept what they were told about themselves and others to see beyond their seperatist, elitist, triumphalist or downright nihilistic conditioning.
Again, you are directly contributing to the myth of ownership of strands of common Irish culture to one racial group. That group, as they identify themselve ("Ulster Scots") are forming a new socio/political/ religious identity for themselves and broadly consider themselves as either Irish AND Ulster Scots (seperatist) or, in more extreme cases, as another race entirely(completely sepratist).
Wake up and smell the toxic ideaology, Dick. We weren't killing each other for years up there over chocolate buttons. And without resolution, these things simply don't disappear, they just change.
And before you say it again; I know, small steps, laugh together, hold hands on the beach... if you weren't directly contributing to carving up common culture I might find it cute.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
One last thought re. music 'bringing people together':
Viewed impartially this is not always positive in many respects.
(Exclusivly percieved) "Irish" music at overtly republican ceremonies brings people together.
"Ulster Scots" music at overtly loyalist or unionist or Orange ceremonies brings people together.
Both happen at the expense of other people, and both at the expense of the commonality of the music.
The solution? Abandon all dividers, all the 'flavours of the month' that we inflict on the music and each other (i.e. exclusive "Irish" property, "Ulster Scots" music or whatever) . That would be progress, and we would obtain something that we could all be proud of together.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ulster Scots was invented for the "Parity of Esteem" bit in the process. They can't very well give money top promote Irish Language and culture, and ignore the other lot. There actually is a "dialect" of sorts which is Ulster Scots, but as a dialect, not a language, no-body was trying to promore it for centuries.
I do agree with Ptarmigan that the North is changing, and it is all a well planned political plan, but it is still changing for the better. We are now down to the "great unwashed" on both sides, to express opposition. And it is a small minority, getting smaller all the time.
I hate all nationalists, I would be a republican like Ollie Cromwell and those boys. Nationalism does tend to be about "we are the super race", as typified by nationalists like Hitler and Thatcher.
In the present world, run entirely by an elite group of capitalists who have brain washed all and sundry through the media, mainly TV, I doubt if your wish will ever be realised Harry, much as I would love to se it come true.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan, having followed your (mostly) humorous, constructive, knowledgeable, and helpful rambles for some time now, I would urge you to sit back and enjoy a virtual drink with me and the (no doubt) countless others who love you dearly.
*Raises glass respectfully*
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Blissters wrote: "In the present world, run entirely by an elite group of capitalists who have brain washed all and sundry through the media, mainly TV, I doubt if your wish will ever be realised Harry, much as I would love to se it come true."
Yep... very true... that sums it all up rather succinctly I'd say.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Button, you said - "I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music." That was what I was objecting to, for there were quite a few children at that event, & whatever conclusions you might wish to 'jump to' regarding the adults, let's, at least give the children the benefit of the doubt!
Harry, when we arrived here 16 years ago, gable ends in Loyalist Belfast & Derry were plastered with large paintings of balaclava'd soldiers, armed to the teeth, with intentionally provocative & intimidating slogans attached.
Today, you are far more likely to see those same gable ends depicting 'Ulster Scots' musicians & dancers. That must surely be for the good.
Now I know there is still an underlying separatist mindset behind a lot of those, but it is, for me at least, a move in the right direction & if it even in a small way helps young kids on those street to grow up wishing they were Ulster Scots Musicians & Dancers rather than Loyalist Gunmen & Terrorists, then, in my own Don Quixote way, I guess I'm for it.
Far from denying that I am part of the problem, I already accepted that I, like everyone else up here, is, just as you surely are yourself too, when you apparently refuse to encourage change, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant, when it is so surely, at least moving in a positive direction.
If that 'conditioning' you speak of is creating musicians rather than terrorists, then I'm for it.
We can't kid ourselves that there are not still two sides to this picture up here, but if we have moved away from Loyalist V Nationalist, to that of Irish V Ulster Scots, I see that as a softening of the edges.
Next step might be to get rid of the - V?
But that's down the road a piece.
Let's stop 'always' talking about the killing, however hard that may be, & not simply expect some sort of magical change to take place. I think we need to encourage change.
The 'culture' was carved up a long time ago, but I think it might just be taking baby steps towards re-uniting, in a long, tortuous, roundabout sort of a way.
Not so long ago, you would have been likely to hear Loyalists swear they had not an ounce of Celtic blood in them. Now we see them enjoying Irish Music! I'm for it.
".."Irish" music at overtly republican ceremonies brings people together. "Ulster Scots" music at overtly loyalist or unionist or Orange ceremonies brings people together. Both happen at the expense of other people, and both at the expense of the commonality of the music."
Yes, so why can't you welcome the fact that we saw Irish music being played at an overtly loyalist gathering?
Surely, by your logic, that does encourage a coming together?
Thanks Bliss, I agree - change for the better has to be change for the better.
Oldstrings, thanks, I'm going to take your advice & am just about to put on my glad rags, no not dungarees, & head off to the 'Bluegrass Festival'.
Where I expect to find the park full of good Ulster Folk, from all walks of life, just enjoying good music.
Yes folks, music can, & does, bring people together!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"Far from denying that I am part of the problem, I already accepted that I, like everyone else up here, is, just as you surely are yourself too, when you apparently refuse to encourage change, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant, when it is so surely, at least moving in a positive direction..."
Dick, you are so seemingly deaf to my reasoning that it is useless to disscuss this any further. If ever you get your head out of the fur lined hole you have dug for it we might have an intelligent conversation that doesn't involve you wallowing in the comfort of your own, entrenched (but very culturally aggresive position). What are you going to claim for the "Ulster Scots" version of peace next? Why MUST this come at the cost of the commonality of our common heritage?
"If that 'conditioning' you speak of is creating musicians rather than terrorists, then I'm for it."
To someone who came from the sort of area alluded to, this is offensively simplistic. It seems to imply that the youth of the largely urban housing estates that supply the meat for sectarian violence in some way have a connection with traditional music: THE VAST MAJORIY OF THEM DON'T. The vast majority of them, like other kids, want to play playstations and listen to pop music. The vast majority of them are doing this and are not aware and/or concerned with traditional music. The vast majority of then think that folky do-gooders are goofy assholes.
It is us 'clever' grown ups who inflict our cultural/political agendas on them with our murals and our costume wearing and our great ideas.
If we simply left our kids alone and created the conditions for peace for them politically like decent human beings they wouldn't require the "Ulster Scots" answer to Hitler's Youth to indoctrinate them culturally.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
p.s. I think it's plain to see that the music played at said Orange event was (in keeping with their seperatist agenda) "Ulster Scots" and billed thus. The day I look forward to is when Orange, "Ulster Scots"and all the other sectarian geared crap is laid to rest by more intelligent and responsible people.
pps. On second thoughts, keep making rediculous assertions: I think we are perfectly exposing the pervasive little myth for exactly what it is.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Aaah, I spent a lovely day yesterday, up at the Bluegrass Festival, near Omagh where the park was full of Ulster folk from, no doubt, all religious & political backgrounds - just enjoying good music.
For the past sixteen years this festival has been bringing folks together.
Sixteen years ago though, I don't believe anyone up here would have imagined in their wildest dreams seeing many, if any, Loyalists, Orange men or even many Unionists at a Trad Music Festival in the North!
Thankfully today, many of the festivals now have their own 'Ulster Scots' element, which, whether you like the 'label' or not, has actually helped to encourage hundreds of Unionists to go along to these events & enjoy what, to them, are 'mixed' concerts, but to musicians are just music concerts.
You may not like the labels, or the political thinking behind some of these movements, but they, like it or not, are helping to bring peoples together.
At Portglenone's Gig'n the Bann last weekend for example, there was great ITM on the same bill as Pipe Bands, Ulster Scots Rhyme etc etc.
Now it's true, some of the organisers of such events, I know, don't like this Ulster Scots phenomenon any more than you do Harry, & share your suspicions, but they cynically take it on board quite simply because their are cash incentives in the form of large grants.
So I freely admit, the politicians are sticking their beaks in, so what’s new, but the end result is, despite the cynicism & mistrust, folks are slowly coming together to share good music.
Sixteen years ago I couldn't go & watch a concert which had Pipe Bands, ITM, Flute Bands, Ulster Rhymes, Irish Dancers, Scottish Dancers all on the same bill – now I can, so somebody is doing something right.
I’m not saying this is all down to the U.S. movement, but it is helping this softening of the boundaries & edges process.
It doesn't really matter does it, who is the major player, it just matters that it is moving in the right direction.
There is no such thing as stagnation - if the process is not moving forward, it's surely moving backwards!
We might not like the labels but if the moves are positive, then let's give them a chance.
By the way Button, yes there were children in that hall, listening to & playing music, but I enjoyed seeing them being given the opportunity to listen to Irish Music, a thing that just couldn’t have happened, not so very long ago.
Oh & of course Harry, I wasn’t suggesting for one moment that those wall murals are going to encourage every estate kid to rush out & start playing trad music, but are you telling me you’d rather see guns & balaclavad ‘soldiers’ up there instead of musicians & dancers?
One day there may finally be no Murals at all on walls, nor flags waving, nor kerb stones painted, there are certainly far fewer these days.
You say - “the "Ulster Scots" answer to Hitler's Youth to indoctrinate them culturally.” - but remember the Loyalists & Nationalist have each been indoctrinating their own’ Youth’ for more than thirty years, & sadly, evil as indoctrination is, we’re not going to see that change overnight, but if that indoctrination moves away from one of aggression & conflict - it has to be regarded as an improvement, even if only a slight one.
I know there’s a lot of “sectarian crap” out there, but it is not going to wash itself away, & I think we can do more than just stay detached from the problems, & sit comfortably on our moral high ground, condemning every small step forward out of hand, simply because it doesn’t offer ‘the perfect’ solution, that suits our way of thinking.
I must say, when, in these discussions, someone finds it necessary to raise their voice with italics & starts to refer to the Killings & Hitler, I think it is time to move on, especially when name calling rears it’s ugly head.
I don’t think it is I who is adopting an “aggresive position” here at all, & God knows you may have every right to feel aggressive about the past, but I have no wish to sink to the depths of a slanging, name calling match, so I’ll bow out here. We’re probably starting to go round in circles anyway.
P.S. I may well have a “goofy asshole”, must admit I haven’t looked for a while, but I always try to treat you & your views with respect.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Maybe its my turn to get frustrated?
Don't take it personally, city kids who I've played for in Dublin and the North thought I was an asshole too... and that the music was sh*te.
I'm glad that you have revised your opinion and that 'it' is now all "Bluegrass".
ingrained hatred of a religious other? distorted view of indigenious culture? Colourful gatherings with banners, bands and uniforms?
I don't think 'Hitler's Youth' is a bad comparison. Many German's still remember it very fondly, that was their childhood from which they have to seperate the horrors and excesses of Adolf H. How did they know Hitler was going to turn out like he did, they were just kids having a good time absorbing what was presented to them in a neat and fun little package??????........
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
No surrender is a slogan of the siege mentality of many loyalists as is 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' for many republcans. At a session at Letterkenny a girl sang a couple of hunger strike ballads about Mickey Devine and Patsy O'Hara and finished with the said epithet. I didn't particularly like it but I also dont believe that everyone at that session should be tarred with a brush held by the singer.
It might just as easily be concluded that the guys on the video did not subscribe to the feelings expressed by the howler.
I know Geordie and George well and while they may very well hold strong political beliefs about the union they are in no way bigoted.
George Holmes has been a member of the 'Different Drums' initiative for many years, bringing bodhranistas and lambeggers together for joint projects.
Geordie, a past master of the Black Preceptory in Ballywalter, has played tunes at festivals such as Derrygonelly etc for many years and has no problem playing along with the son of an IRA man from west Belfast - me.
And the playing of tunes in Orange Halls is not a new phenomenon - I used to play at a session out near Killinchey and a couple of older women told me of how they used to enjoy the ceili at Carrickmannon Orange Hall back in the 50's.
So lets untwist the knickers here and recognise that the boys were just having a good night out?
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Oh and by the way - I have no problem with songs about the hunger strike - I campaigned for Bernadette McAliskey in my Mc Neills van during the European elections that year! But I do have a wee bit of problem with the Yah Boo slogans.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dear Breandan,
I don't think anybody has denied that they were just having 'a good night out'. The differences in perceptions, and the disagreements, here are more to do with the wider perceptions of strands of common culture.
I have no problem with Irish music (or whatever they are calling it this week) being played in orange halls or anywhere, it has been happening organically, in an uncontrived fashion, for some time as you state. I have problems with the sectarian nature of the orange order itself and with movements actively seeking to associate common Irish culture with them under the guise of 'progress'. This is happening up to a political level.
I hardly need to restate why I might come to this thoroughly unreasonable position. Words become meaningless if you have to constantly restate aversion ot the absurdity of an openly sectarian organisation that often display bigoted elements.
We can't make progress AND hold on to our idiotic, indulgent distortions from the past: and we certainly can not just reinvent other people's past and expect them to play ball.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"'it' is now all "Bluegrass" - Of course the Bluegrass I was referring to Harry was taking place at a Bluegrass festival, at the Ulster American Folk Park, as I stated, so no confusion or revision there - at all!
Interestingly though, there were actually many shades of Bluegrass on display yesterday, including Gospel, Old Time & Blues as well as the hard core Bluegrass itself at the event I attended, just as there were many shades of Traditional Music on display at Portglenone over the weekend.
I have no doubt there were certain political undertones to the mix at Gig'n the Bann, but of course there were none at all at the Omagh Folk Park, in time perhaps that will be the case at Portglenone too.
But, at the likes of Portglenone, it is good to finally get an opportunity to see both musical traditions in action side by side, on the same stage, & more & more festivals up here are being seen to follow that path each year.
There needs to be more & more sharing & melding of these perceived cultural aspects before any of us practitioners can ever hope that they might ever merge to form one large musical culture, shared by all here.
That would be a long way down the road & even if & when that might happen, it would still, like Bluegrass Music, always maintain its several different branches.
Despite your staunch pessimism in these matters Harry, I am confident that individualism will out, in the end, it is quite simply too intrinsic a part of human nature to be stifled for too long!
Breandan - "And the playing of tunes in Orange Halls is not a new phenomenon" - quite so.
I have myself been told on many occasions by many of the older musicians up here in this area of North Antrim, that most of the old Saturday night dances were held in local Orange Halls & that a wide variety of tunes were played.
But I think the point is that that was more often the case, only back in the so called 'good old days' - before 'the troubles'!
Nice too, to hear someone in the know, set the record straight regarding Geordie.
I have only respect for him, & others like him who were not afraid, even through the troubles, to be seen, aye & to be seen involving themselves musically, with both camps.
Of course he was not alone, for there are & were others like e.g. John Kennedy & Sammy Wade.
P. S. My knickers only got in a 'twist' when I was checking to see if my 'asshole' was in fact 'goofy'!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
Your take on my view of these matters as 'pessimistic' betrays your inability to understand these issues in any way near their full contexts. I consider your comment on these matters to be a broadly ignorant one. But please do not misinterpret this (as you do much of the rest of what I type) as a prompt from me for you to stop.
Re: Setting the record straight about Geordie. When was the record not straight? Has anyone said anything that wasn't true or that was unfair?
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick - even throughout the troubles there was a large contingent of 'prods' playing tunes and in the unlikeliest of places. People like Leslie Bingham and Terry Brown were regular attendees at Tom Kelly's in the Short Strand even during the worst of the tit for tat killings.
And as I mentioned in a previoius thread, the UVF in Newtownards placed a blast bomb outside the Jolly Judge becuase they were not going to have any 'Fenian Music' about the place. Every one of the musicians was, in fact, a prod.
Harry,
No issue here with the analysis of the Orange Order but we do have to deal with the reality that many 'good' people belong to the order and do not see it as others [we] do. Brian Kennaway, for example, has long argued that the order needs to get back to it's 'christian' roots and be less political. Indeed he lectured on the very point during the west Belfast Feile last month.
If recognising that the music is part of the common heritage helps to break down some barriers then that can only be to the good.
Gary Hastings has lectured at a number of events on the fact that many fife and drum bands in the Orange tradition had a significant amount of their repertoire in common with the diddleys.
It was only during the troubles that many people formed the wrong opinion that the music belonged to only one side. This was addressed at some length a number of years ago when our Ciaran organised a weekend conference with the title 'Whose music is it anyway?' and a book on the proceedings was published that covers many of these issues.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Breandan,
I have no problem with the idealogical reform of the orange order at all. Bring it on! But there are other 'realities' that it would be foolish to deny. We see the problem, then we go about fixing it. I don't think that the orange order was ever particularly christian (as in, they didn't seek to emphasise and/or embrace the teachings of Christ with regards to their fellow, non protestant, man). Maybe their interpretation of 'christianity' owes/owed more to the old testament?
I'm all for common heritage like you say. I'm not for labelling common heritage with racial undertones and religious/ political BS i.e."Ulster Scots". This is dividing up common heritage/ building barriers, not breaking down barriers.
"Whose Music Anyway?" I agree. Not Irish/catholic/protestant/"Ulster Scots"/ republican... not any of that. Its everybody's. No divisions.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"We proclaim "Civil and religious liberty for all : special privileges for none". We do not deny to others their civil and religious liberties; we expect the same tolerance from them. We shall be strong for truth, for peace, for the making of a good, fair and just society to which we shall contribute liberally as good citizens."
Hard to argue with that - taken from the Grand Lodge of Ireland website.
The fact that many do not live up to the ideal is neither here nor there.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Och Harry, so now I'm 'ignorant' too!
Ah well, I think in the final analysis, I would rather be considered as someone who was ignorant, but at least was trying in his own small way to be positive, and at least do his little bit to try & encourage a greater understanding by all the folks up here, in all the forms of traditional music played here (whatever some folks like to call it), than someone who simply sat on the sidelines, & refused to voice an opinion, afraid to take a chance.
Or perhaps worse still, an intellectual, who therefore probably should have known better, but refused to even consider the possibility that, just perhaps, he didn't actually have all the correct answers after all, & in so doing, promoted the missing of opportunities for a way forward, that might just have helped music to be better shared & understood by all.
Re: Geordie & - “Has anyone said anything that wasn't true or that was unfair?”
I know you plucked something Geordie once said out of a conversation & displayed it here, but we here have no real way of knowing what the context of that conversation was & no way of knowing whether or not his voice may have in fact had a sarcastic or ironic tone to it, or indeed what the rest of that conversation was all about, at all, ....at all.
Had we been there to hear it all, in its entirety, it may well have painted a very different picture - we are not to know.
That is why I believe it was only fair that someone who obviously knows this man well, was able to offer us his view, for balance.
I think if we were all afraid that, like politicians, we were going to have all of our conversations recorded & then used in sound bite form against us in the future, there’d be a lot less friendly chit chat at informal, friendly gatherings.
Not to mention more guarded comments here on this site!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Scarey times indeed Breandan. Let's hope they are all behind us.
I do remember Loyalist threats being made against Session pubs a number of years ago in Belfast & Derek Bell, if I remember correctly, stepped forward at that time & pointed out publicly, how many of those sessions actually had a number of Protestant players in them & how after all it was only traditional music they were playing, music which had always been enjoyed by Protestants & Catholics alike.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"Members of the Orange Institution are pledged to uphold the Protestant faith and liberty under the law. They are neither bigots nor extremists. Standing for tolerance and compassion towards all they also stand for the underlying principle of the Christian faith and the dignity and rights of the individual.
The Orange Order is fundamentally a Christian organisation. The Institution stands in the Reformed tradition as the various statements contained in the "Qualifications" illustrate:-
LOVE OF GOD - "a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father. He should never take the name of God in vain".
FAITH IN CHRIST - "steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind".
AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE - "he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures and make them the rule of his faith and practice".
We are committed to the cause of Civil and Religious Liberty for all. It is our desire to live at peace with all men and to ensure that all men have peace in which to live."
Again, a straight lift from the aforementioned website.
Yes, of course, there are many bigoted eejits who belong to the order but there are also many who would eschew such views.
My own 'Uncle Dickie' was an orangeman from the Shankill Road who took us on our holidays every year when we had no car of our own. A mate of my Da's from the GPO, he was a true gentleman in every sense. For many year's we used to go down to the Lisburn Rd to watch the demonstration on the 12th and many's the bowler hatted, sword weilding, glove wearing marcher waved at my Da and us.
Now dont get me wrong - my Da changed his view in later years and saw the demonstrations as nothing but coat trailing but what did not change was his view that everyone should be judged on how you find them and that labels are a slovenly way to judge others.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
My own grandfather was an orange man (my mother and her side of the family are protestant), who hated no one and who distanced himself from his urban lodge when sedition started to creep in after the bouts of conflict that flared up around the civil rights movement.
Compare that to the orange men who, after the UFF had shot dead 5 catholic men in an Ormeau rd. betting shop, marched down the road taunting the traumatised locals with gestures of five raised fingers (i.e. that's five to us). Paisley, the consumate catholic hater, is a proud and well regarded orange man of course.There was always trouble around orange marches in urban areas BTW. My father clearly remembers tension and confrontation in the Short Strand where he grew up (pre- civil rights movement).
Like many movements it has its moderates and its extremes. Its fair and real to say that, at the very least, it has an ingrained and widespread anti-catholic culture.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I'm going to call everybody from outside Ireland "Nigger" from now on, just for the shock value, or for a laugh.
I know exactly what Geordie was at. It was unnesscary and it wasted on the company, who were all nice, reasonable enough people. We all make mistakes, once we try not to make a habit of it.
The National Front was openly tolerated in loyalist areas of course. They had a main office in East Belfast near Ligoneel Leisure Centre if my memory serves me.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan,
I am at a loss here (not an unusual condition for me, I’m afraid). Within this same thread you seem to describe the Youtube segment’s percussive racket within (what can only be described as) that dismal setting as “… enjoying some good Traditional music”.
Later in the discussion you describe yourself as:
“…an intellectual, who therefore probably should have known better, …”.
Your judgement in describing the former clearly negates your claim to the latter.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Re. Ulster, "Ulster Scots" and Ulster Nationalism:
From Wikipedia:
"...However whilst support for Ulster nationalism has tended to be reactive to political change, the theory also underlines the importance of Ulster cultural nationalism and the separate identity of the people of Ulster. As such Ulster nationalist movements have been at the forefront of supporting the Orange Order and upholding the 12th July marches as important parts of this cultural heritage, as well as encouraging the growth of the Ulster Scots language."
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dannyky, firstly, let me try to clear this up for you.
In my last posting I said, & I quote:
"I would rather be considered as someone who was ignorant, ..... than someone who simply sat on the sidelines, ... Or perhaps worse still, an intellectual,"
So, you see, you mis-read my post & as I hope you now see, I never did describe myself as an intellectual.
Trust me dannyky, if you speak to anyone at any of the sessions I go to, & asked for a list of musical intellectuals - my name would most definitely 'NOT' feature on any of their lists.
Secondly, I am not a percussionist, & even although I do dabble in the Bodhran, I do not consider that to be sufficient to class myself as being some kind of expert in that field.
As I'm sure you are aware, the big wide world of percussion is so much more than just ITM Bodhran playing.
So I am not really qualified to judge another's percussive art form, so even although I do not understand many & probably most musical forms from the many regions of this diverse planet, I would still not jump to the conclusion that the music they were playing was simply a "percussive racket".
I would, as a generous minded sort of a bloke, give them the benefit of the doubt.
We can all too naturally favour our own music over other forms, partly perhaps because we have grown up with it, or become well acquainted with it over years of exposure, or from becoming emersed ourselves in the subtleties of its forms, as we have learned to play it.
But just because, for example, in my ignorance of the form, the sight & sound of say a dozen Hurdy Gurdy players accompanied by a dozen French Pipers sounded strange to my ears, I don't think then that it would automatically give me the right to condemn it out of hand, as a "percussive racket"!
Much of the East European music sounds strange to my ears, but I'm sure it sounds absolutely glorious & just as joyfull to them as ITM sounds to us.
As for the "dismal setting" you refer to, I'd just like to say that I have played in many a strange place over the years, including a number of Comhaltas Halls, which gave forth no warmer a glow, on first sight, than the one you perceived from that clip.
However, you must admit, it is very difficult to gauge from such a short clip, whether people are enjoying themselves or not.
Let’s be honest here, people do not always grin & smile when they are watching, listening to or indeed even playing traditional music.
Some of the dourist faces you'll ever see are on the faces of musicians in many an ITM Pub Session & I should know, mine's one of them, but honest, believe me or believe me not, I am enjoying myself!
Lambeg playing may or may not be my cup of tea, but to my way of thinking I do not have the right to slag it off, for me that is surely only truly the right of another Lambeg player who fully understands it.
Coming from anyone else it would just be seen as being - plain rude.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Well firstly, I see you are still advocating calling people names Harry. “I'm going to call everybody from outside Ireland "Nigger" from now on”
I think there has been far too much name calling down through the years, it’s almost an Ulster trait by now!
Never did help the situation & never will ...... in my opinion.
As for your Wikipedia quote, I’m on record here as stating that I believe Ulster Scots is no more than a dialect, so let’s leave that out of your assumptions & assertions shall we!
I’m amazed at your Northern powers of deduction though Harry.
You can tell I am a raving Ulster Nationalist, simply because I confess that I think it is a good thing that we try & get back to the days when Irish Music & Scottish Music was played & enjoyed together by all - Sherlock Holmes look out!
I think there are far too many people bogged down in those old see saw politics ......... yer no for us, so yer agin us!
So as well as name calling, folks up here have grown up with this mentality that everyone has to be labelled & put in their wee box, and you seem to be no different Harry.
I’m not saying I do, but for all you know, I may actually advocate 'The third way':
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
You're reading my posts all wrong again. I never accused you of anything other than being well wide of the mark in branding strands of our common heritage with the "Ulster Scots" brand.
I haven't called anybody a name unreasonably. Maybe you could clarify?
I think you're just hearing things you don't want to hear, and in the absence of any reasonable, quantitive response you're getting a lip on you as you've done before.
It is plain to see though that your assertions could be (probably are) playing directly into the ideas of Ulster nationalists. I don't care about your politics. That's all I said if you care to review.
If you're so concerned with the negatives of name calling then stop rudely calling things that don't belong to anybody "Ulster Scots".
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan,
Thanks for the reminder to keep my mind (and ears) open when engaging the wide music of the world. Thankfully, these past few years have brought a big breakthrough for me on that front.
On one occasion I had spent the better part of an afternoon listening live to indigenous Suliwesian music (and watching the highly stylized dance that accompanies same). It’s sort of a rhythmic mesh of stringed instruments and little metal pots that serve as gongs. I was way into it. I attribute my ability to appreciate the Suliwesian music to my own deep encounter with ITM.
On another occasion I had the opportunity to make daylong music for four or five straight weekends with a leading North American proponent of the veuze and the bombard. I took a shot at some guitar accompaniment, and, after gaining some familiarity with “strange” time signatures, laid down some simple but effective chordal accompaniment to the man’s music -gaining the odd nod from him as well. (Much of the music lay within modes that are very familiar to me via ITM).
My third instance involves a tangential encounter with The Balkans. Nearly two years ago a troop of very anxious young men gathered at a pub gig of ours. They were p*ss drunk - Military reservists - getting shipped off to Kosovo to supervise an election there. They returned intact just a few months ago, and reported that they had been playing a CD of our homebred Irish Traditional music in their humvee, when a group of young Serb kids approached and to commenced calling them scurrilous names for “Roma” (I.e. the indigenous travelers of that area.). Our music had apparently been mistaken for Balkan gypsy music (I’ve really got to work on my phrasing I suppose). In fact, their leader - Lt. Kearney - was henceforth known in that mountainous village as “The Yankee Roma”.
So you see Ptarmigan, being isolated amidst the Eastern mountains of this little Continent to your west does afford me the occasional encounter with music beyond our beloved washtub bass, fiddle and banjo. I hope that I have convinced you that I have some ability to trust my own judgment regarding what I hear and see.
What I see and hear on the Youtube link (above) is indeed a percussive racket.... leaving it at that is being kind. I thank you for backing off your claim (amidst the world music instructional briefing) to being an intellectual.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
This gets better, so now I'm an "ignorant goofy asshole, with a lip on" me - sheees, I'm beginning to feel more & more like Quasimodo by the minute!
Normally, I might have mentioned bells here, but I'm afraid I'd just temp the wrath of our friendly Morris Man!
"If you're so concerned with the negatives of name calling then stop rudely calling things that don't belong to anybody "Ulster Scots"."
Interestingly Harry, if you cast that keen analytical eye of yours back across this thread for a moment, you will notice that it is in fact yourself who appears to have a fondness for using the term:
I reckon I used it only 8 times ..... while you have used it - 20 times!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Very poor, Dick. I'm hardly the one touting it with my own website. But I suppose its as good as any other argument you've offered.
Yeah this crowd are great. Ulster Nationalism, 'Ulster Scots' and the British National Front together at last!
Ulster Third Way:
"The Ulster Third Way is the Northern Ireland branch of the Third Way and is organised by David Kerr, who had previously campaigned as an 'independent Unionist' (chairing the small North Belfast Independent Unionist Association) as well as for the British National Front. As well as sharing the Third way's aims U3W (as it is sometimes shortened to) is committed to securing independence for Northern Ireland from both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. U3W tends to focus its attentions on trying to build up grass-roots support in Loyalist areas, emphasising Ulster-Scots and the Battle of the Boyne commemorations and has its main office in the Shankill area of Belfast. Despite this approach U3W remains a very minor force in Northern Irish politics. The group publishes a journal Ulster Nation, as well as irregular books and pamphlets about Ulster nationalism "
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dannyky, if you feel it is fair to judge the musical merits, or otherwise, of this instrument, from hearing it, on a poor recording & in the unnatural setting of a small hall, given that this instrument is after all really only designed, like the Great Highland Bagpipe & I suspect the Bombarde & Binou too, for outdoor use, then so be it, you are of course entitled to your opinion.
You won't be the first, or the last no doubt, to be rude about another's music on this site.
I have seen some really dreadful video clips of music at YouTube, but I don't always assume that just because the sound quality is bad, that the music was that bad!
Personally, I have no knowledge of the Lambeg tradition first hand, other than the little I hear on the street here & on TV, so I don't feel I am in any position to judge the merits of this instrument's music.
However, as a musician myself I do usually, as a rule of thumb, try to give the other musician the benefit of the doubt.
Also, as I never actually made any claim to being an intellectual, as I have already very clearly shown, I have therefore nothing to back off from!
If you are not clear on this point, perhaps you should read my last post again.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
What's incredible about the website link that you posted is that, browsing it, you could be mistaken for not thinking that this crowd were a bunch of racist, neo fascist nuts.
Good old wikipedia. If anybody was impressed by this crowd's website then you should read this:
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
As you know Harry, & just for the record, I took that link from the previous link you posted.
Good man, & just to keep you amused, if that little political box you now have me in doesn’t suit you, then can I also say that - “I’m not saying I do, but for all you know, I may actually advocate”:
By the way - "I'm hardly the one touting it with my own website."
Isn’t it interesting then that you have probably used the term ‘Ulster Scots’ more often on this thread than I use it on my whole website, & even then, I only use the term when quoting the U. S. Agency or the U. S. Orchestra!
For the website you refer to is actually my ‘Scots-Irish Music’ site, where I attempt to understand this music that is being called Ulster-Scots by so many people up here today & I use the term ‘Scots-Irish’ there, for the same reason that I would use the term Irish-Americans, for I don’t see them as being American-Irish.
To me those people are of Irish descent, living in America, just as these folks here may be of Scottish descent, living in Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ulster!
For anyone interested, here is my introductory page which, I hope, demonstrates that this site is actually trying more to ask questions than divide & conquer, as you seem to think my mission is Harry.
If anyone here can suggest any terminology which might allay the fears of folk like Harry, I would be interested to hear your ideas?
‘Scots-Irish Music’
“This site looks at the instruments, the many forms of music, & some of the musicians, that go to make up the music, referred to today as that of the 'Ulster-Scots', or the 'Scots-Irish' or the 'Scotch-Irish'.
But what is this music? Is it simply Scottish Music played in Ulster by the descendants of Scottish planters? Is it in fact Irish Music that has been heavily influenced by Scottish Music, as in Donegal, & which someone once described as being simply "bad Scottish Music". Or is it something totally unique to those people of Ulster who are descended from the Scots. Music, which not only reflects their historic musical links with Scotland, but which has also been influenced by the Irish Music which is all around, and yet, which retains it's own very individual traits which give it a character all of it's own?
To put you in the picture, this site has not been put together by an Ulsterman with all the answers, but rather by an interested Scotsman, a blow-in, who has an enquiring mind, who is seeking answers to questions. I am no professor who is attempting to gain brownie points with a learned paper on this subject - shucks, I don't even have a 3rd level education. I am simply presenting my observations & findings & leaving the reader to make up their own minds. What I most certainly do not have in mind here is any political agenda, the mission is simply about music, music, music, that's all. So if you are reading politics into any of this, you are on the wrong site!
However, if you are reading this, & are part of the Ulster-Scots, Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish traditions, I would very much like to hear from you, to learn what this music is for you & means to you.
Incidentally, for the purpose of this site, the term Ulster, refers to the old historic Ulster, that is the nine counties, which have each seen their share of Scottish settlers, over the years.”
Just for the record too, this site is a mere fraction of my site as a whole, most of which concerns itself with looking quite simply, at the ‘Traditional Music’ of North Antrim, & most of this would probably be classed by everyone here as Irish Music. So which ‘box’ should I put myself in now?
There is of course a page on the ‘Old Time Music’ of Appalachia too. But does that fact mean that I might be suspected of being for the movement to form a breakaway government in Appalachia? ...... I think not!
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
Do your failures to capture the basic gist of my messages know no bounds? I didn't associate you IN ANY WAY with the above political entities. I have clearly stated that I don't care what your personal politics are, and I mean it. I will continue to expose the sensitive underbelly of Ulster Nationalism and how "Ulster Scots" or whatever you call it relates to it, you can keep annoying yourself and repeating yourself by assuming that I am including you in every criticism I make about various groups, thats up to you, but its just another bizzarre (if particularly tiresome) set of bewildering assertions that you feel the need to inflict on this discussion.
I urge people to consider any implied political/religious/racial theft of our commonality in the same light as I consider "Ulster Scots". I will gladly contribute if I can with honesty.
I persued the above links because of their relevance to the topic as it is now and as it has been for some time: Identity and 'Irish music'. The above links have no content that relates directly to the "Ulster Scots" cartoon, the links I followed up on very definately did. Try not to feel so hard done by. If you haven't a leg to stand on you should expect the odd wobble.
Regardless of the labels used (they are nonsense to me, so I'm not overly careful with their use) you go on to state in your nonsense blurb:
"Who plays Scots-Irish Music?
It is played by the Pipe Bands, the Fifers with their Lambeg Drummers, the Flute Bands, the Accordion Bands who all have their own repertoires, and the country Fiddlers & Whistlers, who play whatever they hear, & like.
So, just as Irish Music has absorbed many external musical influences over the years, both instruments & music, including much music from Scotland, so the music of the **Ulster-Scots musicians** has absorbed much from Scottish & English musical traditions, & from Irish Music too.
Many of these musicians have also been adept at composing tunes which are, for them, characteristic of their own unique environment. Take, for example, the many great Fife Tunes that have been written in Co Antrim. "<<<<<
Once more, my criticism (in case even at this late stage you have anything insightful or substantial to state): this would seek to assign a racial identifier to strands of common culture. This is inherently unwise. People will disagree with this, Gary Hastings(who you seem to have some respect for) disagrees with this in the case of Antrim Fife tradition. Get over it.
Now, your turn to try and read this as some sort of attack on your political outlook (which I still don't care or know about in the least. If it is as shakey as your Ulster/Scots/Irish/wherever next stuff it hardly warrants debate!)
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
In your last thread alone, you talk about "personal politics", "Ulster Nationalism", "implied political/religious/racial theft", "political outlook"! So once again you have managed to turn the debate away from music & round to your hobby horse - N. I. Politics.
You can imply all sorts of political motives behind my interest in the 'Ulster-Scots' music, while denying that interest at the same time, if you wish.
I assume you naturally do this because, as you are obviously a very political person yourself, you just assume that everyone else must be automatically fascinated &/or motivated by politics.
But believe me, many folk, & I'm sure I am not alone, just yawn when they see the word politics, especially so many times - on a music forum!
I've said it before & I'll say it one more time, I am interested in learning about the traditional music in the area surrounding my new home, here in North Antrim .... as anyone who glances through my 'whole' website will see.
Now for me to ignore the huge phenomenon up here today which is popularly known as 'Ulster Scots' Music, would be negligent on my part, in the extreme, so it surely must form part of my site if I am truly trying to present an honest picture of the traditional music scene here today.
However, were I to adopt the very aggressive, antagonistic attitude that you clearly show towards this concept, on my site, it would be very unlikely that I would ever receive any feedback from the community here, which is slowly embracing this music, many of whom perhaps had little or no interest in 'any' form of traditional music until recently, or if they had, they perhaps didn't feel safe to shout about it.
So, if you don't mind, I'll go back to my "Don Quixote", as you put it, style approach to my interests in the music of this area & leave you to your political machinations.
As a parting ‘musical’ thought though, you might like to glance at this page:
Isn’t it fascinating how there are so many musical traditions on that one continent, with so much of it overlapping.
Now if I were to set up a website which claimed to look at all these musical traditions, how could I possibly justify leaving one of them off the list?
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Of course, Dick, you have yet to prove that "Ulster Scots" is a separate, defined "musical tradition" in content like the ones on the website. I don't think you have the insight, the methods, the language, OR the source material to do that (i.e. it doesn't exist as 'a separate', and you can't prove it!).
I think it is clear for all to see that it is merely an implied label stemming from a desire to create a difference in an already troubled and fractured situatuion. This is certainly done in cultural circles, and wider circles, for political/religious reasons. Are you doing it? **I'm repeatedly giving you the benifit of the doubt in saying that I don't think so**. But I am responding to the info that you are supplying, it is insubstantial nonsense. So your motivation doesn't make your mistakes any more correct.
I can't help considering your view on this ignorant if you don't give any substantial evidence to back up your claims of some, separate, identifyable "Ulster Scots" music. Yet you complain and question my line of questioning, ever trying to portray it as "agrressive" (which it is, for good reason) and "pessimistic"; I must say I do wonder why you seem to have invested so emotionally in this inherently divisive, futile little crusade for "Ulster/Irish Scots" invention? Why don't you do some study to be able to defend your rediculous claims if it means that much to you?
Wether you like it or not, or mean it or not, in assigning aspects of common Irish culture with a race label you are contributing to a sort of racist cultural imperialism that has no place in the modern world. Now that IS aggression, if you care to think about it for a moment (no, I don't really expect you to).
If this is incorrect, disprove it. If not, get on with what makes you happy and stop whining.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
ps. For your own peace of mind: if you really don't want to contribute to a part political debate (as this now is) then don't. I consider it to be very much a political/ religious/cultural question, so you might be continuing a discussion on it with the wrong man.
I would also appreciate if you didn't inflict your own selfish value judgment on what I find interesting (i.e. culture, identity and politics). I don't do it to you or anyone else.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
..... & finally.
Harry, why is it so hard for you to understand that someone can be simply curious about this music & wish to learn more about what it is all about, without them automatically be trying to ‘prove’ anything about it? I am beginning to understand that you are never going to accept that I’m not actually trying to prove anything, but am just curious! There seems to be no middle ground for you Harry - I’m not for you so of course I must automatically be against you!
Perhaps you'd be happier if I just had a one page site with, in large letters at the top, What is Ulster-Scots Music?
You no doubt would be even happier if I just ignored the subject altogether!
However, I'm sure some people here would not be totally surprised to find that someone like myself from Scotland, who grew up listening to Scottish Music, & who has played some Scottish but mostly Irish Traditional Music for over thirty years & who now finds themselves living in Ireland, being just a tiny bit curious about this music which, to them just sounds like Scottish Music, but which is being described as Ulster-Scots music by some neighbours & yet being at the same time described by other people, like yourself Harry, as part of "common Irish culture".
It is all around me up here & I’m sorry but I can’t just ignore it & hope that it goes away, which is I’m sure what you would like.
In your new Thread, which not surprisingly has already received a “Yawn’, you - “invite anyone to offer an argument that there is a separate, identifiable body of "Ulster Scots" music/style”
Surely you can see clearly from the lack of interest on this site to our present discussion, that very few people here are at all interested in this & that perhaps the place you should be asking your questions, if you really do want a strong political debate from someone who is actually part of the Ulster-Scots movement & hopefully someone with first hand knowledge of this music, is actually on an Ulster-Scots website?
I warn you though, if you try that, you might be disappointed, for I have been doing that very thing for many months now & have had very little success to date, but I’m not afraid to ask questions, even although it is clear that people often misinterpret the reasons for my questions & are quick to “inflict their own selfish value judgements” on my motives.
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
I posted that thread in the hope that it would warrant some substantial, explanative comment on the strands of Irish music you and others refer to as 'Scots Irish', 'Ulster Scots' music or whatever. You are unable to provide such comment (even though you accept the existence of 'the alledged phenonmenon' and attempt to define it on your website), so I'm interested in seeing if anyone else is able to. I can find no such comment or analysis elsewhere.
I have never considered you 'against me', that is your presumption. I simply disagree with your clear acceptance of what I obviously consider a new harmful, racist association for music (i.e. 'Scots Irish' or whatever as some distinct form). This is as much to do with context as content. You are unwilling (and I suspect unable) to comment and reason on the context.
The one thing I have learned from deconstructing the beleifs that I was brought up with is that it is possible to disagree with someone intelligently. I'd rather that than to agree with them stupidly.
If both parties conduct themselves openly and reasonably, making statements, backing them up, not getting offended if the other applies their own logic, reasoning and view to the subject, then things can become clear. You have proved repeatedly that you are unwilling to do this where wider, but intrinsically related, cultural and political realities are concerned. So, why are you doggedly hanging on to this thread if it is so outside of your realm of interest? You don't have to contribute. Are you moderator of the board in the area of cultrual politics?
Re. Said 'Yawn': If I was concerned with impressing every smart arse on the board I'd have a lobotomy, quote Irish Music Magazine heavily, and be done with it.
If I ever come across an Ulster Scots website that doesn't seem to be manned by cuturally biased, brain dead flag wavers I MAY or may not contribute. But then, why go there? Should It be incumberant on me to have to go to a unicorn website to argue that unicorns don't exist?
In the good old days you made claims and then backed them up with evedence. It didn't get embroiled in politcal/cultural, pluralist, pseudo PC silliness, and wishful thinking.
We are all quite wrong, only some of us harmfully so.
So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Track 1&3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQuh_Mbvbk
Any thoughts?
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by len
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Blimey. The audience all look bored sh*tless!
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Hey, this is fife and drum music, this is the way it is supposed to be. It's for marching (and battling), not for listening... now if the guy had played the drum on track 2, that would have been tasteless, but he didn't, he probably knows better
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by nutsmuggler
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Fascinating Len. George Holmes on Lambeg & Mandolin with Geordie McAdam on Fife & Fiddle. Two good Ulster men enjoying some good Traditional Music.
As nut says, the first tune is for Marching to, what would be the point of clapping along - you wouldn't hear the clapping anyway!
Thanks for posting this.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Please don't think I was belittling the musicians, I just had a smile at the idea of someone like the drummer joining in at my local session.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by len
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I only saw the first two tunes the first time I watched this Len. For some reason the clip jammed. Now that I have seen the whole clip I do tend to think it is a pity that we are not allowed to comment on the clip, at YouTube.
The reason, I reckon, is that they were afraid that the 'No Surrender' at the end would probably have provoked some antagonistic responses.
It's a pity, cause I think that without the political comment at the end, this would have been a much more useful demonstration that 'Ulster Scots Music' is indeed a blend of Scottish, Irish & Ulster Music.
An opportunity lost, perhaps?
By the way, not only does Geordie McAdam play & march to Fife tunes & Scots & Irish tunes on the Fiddle, but if you make it to the Ulster American Folk Park's Appalachian & Bluegrass Festival this weekend, you'll see Geordie belt out Old Time & Bluegrass tunes with the best of them! There's certainly nothing one-dimensional about that man!
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Oh & Len, just for the record, you may notice that the girl nearest to the Lambeg does tend to cover her ears. I personally think that some instruments, including the Lambeg, are probably best enjoyed outdoors, like the noble Highland Bagpipe, Breton Bombarde & Binou!
I don't think you would fancy any of the above joining in at your local session! I'm sure there are other instruments which could be added to that list of 'session undesirables'
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re:
The great Highland warpipes have their uses in small, crowded session rooms. I heard that in such a session here a while back a man got up and started a song that was probably going to be lugubrious and lengthy, and (it being Folk Festival time) the place was crammed with people raring to play tunes. A piper just behind the man opened up and blew the song into orbit.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by nicholas
Re: Highland War-Pipes have their uses in small, crowded rooms...
I meant to put this title on the above entry.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by nicholas
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Where's the tasteful bit ?( Maybe I blinked !)
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by duffgen
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"Where's the tasteful bit ?( Maybe I blinked !)" ....... said the 'MORRIS' man! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I wonder if they had to use superglue to hang all the pictures in the hall.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by lamh trom
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Don't look now but your predjudice is showing Tarmi
---or is the bowler covering the ears ?
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by duffgen
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I think the piece, in its entirety, represents 'Ulster Scots Music' perfectly.
The sublety and understated, resigned melancholy of the 'No Surrender!" is to die for, darling.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Hmm... Reminds me of a Bodhrán player (and I use that term loosely) who joined our gig in Doolin one night. He played just like that. To a SLOW AIR.
Then he proceeded to tell us how he made made a couple of hundred quid busking at the Cliffs of Moher.
We had a fairly short-fused box player with us that night. Thought it was going to turn ugly...
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by tradshark
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ask Geordie to play you 'The White Coon' on the fife. He loves it, "Did you ever hear of a white nigger!" was his accompanying folk lore on the night he played it for me... oh, sweet culture.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
If that guy ever showed up at our session with one of those drums I'd quickly have him 'surrender' it so we could use it as a table for our session. The one we have now is too high, but it's round and the same size as that. The lip around the edge would be handy too so our drinks don't slide off.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Check out "The Ulster-Scots Experience" (the political wing of "The Ulster Scots Folk Orchestra" playing at the 12th celebrations in Co. Londondry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rCIeC3k9SQ
(For those of you who don't know, the 12th of July is a harmless Irish cultural event that has absolutely NOTHING to do with misoyinist, anti-catholic sectarianism. Whatsoever. At all. Seriously)
Och!
Harry.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Are you sure, Harry? It looks to me like a might be some sort of lambeg memorial service complete with lambeg corpses lying about in front of the stage.
# Posted on August 31st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
“Don't look now but your predjudice is showing Tarmi - or is the bowler covering the ears?”
Naw, naw Duffgen, surely ye ken that a true Scotsman, like masel’, wid ne’er be seen wearin’ yin o’ thur Bowlers! Sure, they’re only fur Sassenachs!
Now nae drawers under ma kilt, that’s mair ma style!
Anyway, doesn’t ‘prejudice’ involve - “an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.”?
....... & the fact is I did spend a whole year playing for the Banchory Morris team, up in Aberdeenshire, so I myself do in fact at least have some little first hand knowledge of the world of the Morris Man.
I wonder though, how much actual first hand experience you have had yourself, of the world of the Fife & Lambeg Drum?
Now I’m not sure where the Lambeg & the Morris team fall, in the derision stakes, but they are both pretty popular targets.
However, I at least tried to soften my barb with a wee smiley, to let you know I was only funnin!
I suppose this thread was bound to attract a bucket load of sarcastic comments, but all those progressive, forward thinking wags who jump on this easily accessible bandwagon should remember what sarcasm really is:
“Why sarcasm is the lowest form of wit?
Because it is only marginally better than being witless.
Vikram Karekatte, North Sydney
Because it is the form commonly employed by politicians.
Hugo Stiegl, Dora Creek
Sarcasm is scornful, contemptuous and taunting, hence it is rightfully the lowest form of wit.
Premila Singh, Strathfield”
....... & I should know - I'm an expert!
So, will the next witless comedian please step forward ................
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Now Ptarmy... sarcasm doesn't become you.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Oh I get it .... very good Button!
But your too late, I already confessed!
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Wow what a noise !! I used to love watching the 12th July march in Liverpool as a kid. You could hear the drums coming miles away and all the dressing up was great, I so wanted to be Queen Mary in her long dress and curls, of course I only ever got to play the Virgin Mary being of the catholic persuasion, but I did look good in blue. Anyway I agree it is never going to sound good indoors this is definitely outdoor stuff and if they beat the drum instead of each other thats fine by me.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by flossie
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
That's pretty defensive for somebody who claims to retain an open mind.
The only thing worse than sarcasm is ignorance... which is the cause of the worlds problems, and the reason why so many people suffer.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Good to read your positive, open minded, thoughts there flossie, very refreshing. Of course, I'm sure you know you are not the only 'Catholic' who ever enjoyed the parades - it's not the first time I've come across ITM-ers who confessed that they regularly used to sneak along to the parades to enjoy listening to the tunes.
I personally felt this video perhaps demonstrated another wee half step forward, as it was demonstrating the playing of 'Irish Music', being played & enjoyed in an Orange Hall – Gordon Bennett! Something that, not too long ago, might have been unthinkable, & although it may well have happened quite regularly, I get the feeling it was not the sort of thing to be displayed &/or demonstrated in public.
I believe then that anything which even minutely helps to break down that old child-like 'them & us' mindset which has plagued the North for so long, surely must be welcomed by any right thinking person.
Let's be honest, it is all too easy to pour scorn & derision on this sort of demonstration, especially by those who have no first hand experience, or knowledge, of 'their' musical culture - but it doesn't really help - does it?
I take my hat off to the likes of Gary Hastings, aye & yourself Harry too, for not being afraid to demonstrate in your recordings how much you enjoy playing those catchy wee Fife Tunes. Those recordings, I feel, have been a very positive step forward & I commend you both.
Of course we all know that IT musicians have always openly embraced all good tunes, aye including many, many Piping & Scottish ones too, & up here, even some from the Fifing tradition as well. But, for a long, long time there has not been that freedom, for those from the 'other persuasion' to openly show that they too enjoy playing good Irish tunes from the 'other's camp'.
You can call me a crazy, optimistic fool if you like, but I just felt this was one of those occasions when a little encouragement might have been more appropriate than silly jibes & point scoring. Small steps, eh, small steps ...............
"The only thing worse than sarcasm is ignorance" - sometimes you can't actually blame someone for being ignorant, but those who practice the ‘noble art’ of sarcasm, are always guilty!
“A person's disposition to sarcasm is sometimes viewed as a symptom of concealed anger.” Perhaps the North is moving away from an anger phase & into a sarcasm phase – maybe that would be a step in the right direction?
Next thing you know, they might all learn to laugh together, now that’d be something worth waiting for, wouldn’t it?
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I thought an 'enlightened' person like you, with your superior, blow in's view of the northern situations would be above pointing the finger of guilt. And so you become part of 'the problem'.
I play the music and rejoice in the number of people who avail of its benifits and who don't use it as a identifyer to entrench their unreasonable identites (this STILL goes on across religious/political/cultural Ireland of course), but I can't help seeing the problems: ingrained superiority, racism, sectarianism, the scramble for 'ownwership' of aspects of culture that simply have never existed in that way... I am angry with those qualities that continue the problem, luckily I can seperate them from the better nature that I belivev all human beings possess. To deny that these factors exist would be a terrible mistake. They are the real enemy. Where you never angry about something, Dick? Seems to me that certain aspects of this get under your skin. Anger needn't be a bad thing if you observe and control it.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
As a refugee from L'pool I'm well acquainted with the solipsism practised on 12th. Ptarmigan. I'm impressed by your impeccable ( Scottish) Morris credentials--were you drummed out ?
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by duffgen
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ooooh! well whip me with a wet lettuce leaf, I dared to call someone guilty of being sarcastic - or is that a hanging offense now?
But remember I did qualify the accusation, by confessing first – ma laud!
Harry, I'm sorry if my views come across to you as being superior, I feel myself to be more detached than superior & folks up here are always very quick to point out how I have absolutely no right to have, or express, an opinion because I & previous generations of my family weren't actually born here & didn't suffer, despite having lived here for 16 years, reared a son here, paid my taxes etc etc.
I know, I should just sit in a corner & say nowt!
Well you know what, I sometimes think that too many people around here have been made to feel afraid to express how they feel, for too long.
You speak of all - “the problems” & we are all well aware that there are many, many problems, but let’s not allow these problems to blind us, we shouldn’t stop feeling positive about the future & clutching at straws & welcoming all those little moves in the right direction.
You speak of rejoicing, well I 'rejoice' too, but in all those little steps forward, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant - after all, the longest journey always starts with one step.
"Were you never angry about something..?" - sure, but I don't get angry about this, just frustrated I suppose & a little sad sometimes that the process forward is such a slow one.
"And so you become part of 'the problem'" - Well, if I’m honest, I would have to accept that everyone who lives up here is probably part of the problem, in one way or another, I suppose I’m damned if I do & damned if I don't! - but I’d rather be damned for at least trying.
Surely though, you can’t have it both ways can you, I mean, if I am part of the problem, then surely I do have a right to an opinion after all?
I think one of the really big problems though is actually people looking back all the time - a little bit of forward thinking could go a long way!
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Sorry Duffgen, cross posting & I missed your comments.
If I had been 'drummed out' of that Morris team it would hardly have added to my 'street cred'. No I think, like many a boxer, I'd just heard one bell too many!
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
I thought you placed quite a bit of emphasis on that you were an outsider and that by this you seemed to imply some sort of impartiality (superior to partiality?). That was certainly what you were implying and stating in previous discussions.
I haven't the slightest inkling to ask or tell you to be quiet. You seem to enjoy going on about stuff too much for me to do that. But don't expect me to buy into your version of reality. Feel free to question mine... in content preferably (i.e. not resorting to silly, irrelevant personal stuff)
Your optomistic outlook may well have its place, my realistic outlook comes from the streets of inner city Belfast as it was during the hunger strikes, and from no small understanding and direct experience of ITM in all parts of Ireland. It has its place too.
Frustration IS anger; anger that you are not getting your way. Sometimes, when what people feel like doing proves detrimental to their fellow man, even their own children, then they should consider its sources and what good or harm there is in expressing it. Otherwise they will probably reinvorce harmful patterns and damage their children. Accepting people expressing whatever the hell they want is extremely nihilistic especially if it proves harmful to others (intollerance, prejudice, violence etc...)
Knowledge doesn't blind. Knowledge can point the way to experience. Experience informs knowledge.
Looking at what is happening now and looking at the future are not seperate, now and the future are not seperate. The separation is our subjective construction. The future is completely informed by now. Good luck with your invention of a Rose Tinted Ulster. I'm holding out for the revolution of mind and spirit that is required to free all the people of Ireland together.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Thanks Harry for a perceptive and objective take on all the foregoing. Your final sentence should be an object lesson to us all.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by duffgen
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Right on, Harry! Your words echo something one of our forefathers here in the states said a long time ago. It was Thomas Jefferson who said, "Only an informed democracy will behave in a responsible fashion." Far too many people are imprisoned by their own ignorance when it comes to these sorts of issues. Being informed is one of humanity's last hopes all around this planet of ours. Thanks.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Harry, my outsider status is without question as I was born in Scotland & have only lived here for 16 years.
As for my impartiality, I declared that in this & previous discussions, simply to point out that my views are quite simply not those of someone who has been accepted, as far as I can see, as a member of any community up here.
When I write in my column about forthcoming Ulster Scots events, I am accused of being a loyal Ulster Scot & when I write about ITM events the Ulster Scots members of the community regard me as being some kind of a Nationalist.
I’m not sure where they put me when I regularly promote both in the same column!
I think if I wanted to feel ‘superior’ I could much more easily achieve that by just moving into one camp, & constantly slag off the others at every turn, like so many others up here.
I like to think I am probably more realistically regarded, by more open minded individuals as being someone who sits on the fence, be that a good or a bad thing.
In either camp one usually has loads of ‘friends’ but ‘the fence’ can be a very lonely place.
I am realistic enough too, to realize that I am hardly going to gain much in the way of support for my thoughts from anyone here, on an ITM Forum, but I never did start this to win friends & influence people.
If I were on a superiority kick as you suggest I, as a nobody, would hardly be demonstrating much common sense by debating the subject with an ITM superstar such as yourself, so I know full well I am not going to win any popularity contest here.
No, I assure you, that’s not what it’s about at all. If that were the case I could quite easily sit on an Ulster Scots Forum & rant & slag to my hearts content & feel as superior as Lord Muck himself!
No far be it from me to attempt to change anyone’s opinion here, I am simply putting my own thoughts forward & if anyone wishes to read them fair enough, if not, no sweat, but I’m certainly no evangelist. However, this is a discussion forum after all, so I thought that was the whole point, to discuss things, so in doing that, it’s very difficult for me not to give my opinions, that doesn’t necessarily mean I am trying to change anyone’s point of view here.
As for your “irrelevant personal stuff” (?) the only thing I mentioned of yours, which I think could fall into that bracket were the Fife tunes on your CDs, & if you object to me mentioning those, then I apologize. However, I genuinely thought that as this was a Music forum & we, or at least I, was discussing music, that they might have been in some way relevant to our present debate, but if I made a mistake there, then I’m sorry.
Our differing views are clearly based on very different past experiences but I never for one moment suggested, or even hinted, that your views weren’t relevant. You obviously have far more personal experience here than I, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that my views aren’t in any way relevant, they are just different, & I am surely allowed to express them.
It occurs to me though, that in the past up here, & indeed in many areas of conflict, an outsider has often been brought in to mediate, that is someone who’s views are not coloured & prejudiced by years of conflict, so perhaps, just maybe, there may be some small merit in the outsiders point of view, sometimes, don’t you think?
I certainly don’t apologize for my optimistic point of view, I would always rather see the pint tumbler half full, than half empty, & if that ,makes me naive, then so be it.
My frustration, by the way, is not born from me not getting my way, for I have no ‘way’ to get here, I am an outsider remember!
So there really is no prize for me personally if tomorrow I wake up & all the Nationalist & Loyalists are one big happily family, other than the fact that all my neighbours would be content & at peace with one another.
That would be truly wonderful – but I’d still be an outsider, so I am under no illusions on that score.
I’m afraid I just don’t see how musicians sitting in an Orange Hall playing Irish & Scottish & Ulster music together can be anything other than a positive step forward, after all there are many sessions where this regularly happens, but I felt the unusual quality here was to see it happening in an Orange Hall, & for it to be safe & to be ‘sanctioned’ if you like, for public display in this video form, is surely a small step forward, isn’t it?
I don’t see how anyone could feel so threatened by this short clip?
I know there is no going forward without the experiences of the past, but I would hope we can learn from them without always letting them dictate our present attitudes.
I’m afraid my views may well be rose tinted, that is the curse of the optimist I suppose, but be honest, we are not going to snap our fingers & find a solution that “frees all the people of Ireland”, overnight, so in the meantime I’ll carry on rejoicing, & encouraging, those small steps forward, in hopefully, the right direction.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Yes, *hopefully* the right direction. I'm not arguing that you are not doing your best at contributing to a new Irish nationalism. The 'superstar' BS is another dillusion BTW.
To clarify; I don't find you/ your nationality/ history offensive; just the situation that you're contributing to. I assure you its not personal.
As for the 'all laugh together' stuff. I've played music in contexts that transcend the latter day, trendy, PC nouveau antics, in the days when it wasn't trendy, in fact it was downright dangerous in instances. So the UUTV (Ulster(Unionist)Television) 'peace talk' (and its mostly talk) sounbites don't impres me much.
Decommision your ignorance people! Hand in your pride! Encase your self cherishing, egocentric little cartoons of yourselves in concrete and bury them in a bunker in Cavan!
Keep taking the smilies til moral improves.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Harry, I dont know who you are or what you do and I'm sorry to say that I don't actually know exactly what you are talking about ( ie'superstar' BS/ dillusion BTW) but personally, I believe, the sooner we stop allowing the things that happened to our parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents/greatgreatgrandparents to influence our present actions the better. Someone has to make the break and get on with living together . The music is a great place to start. I think maybe you have tried and had a hard time, but that is admirable and you should continue, it's the hard times that really mould us and are worth remembrance.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by flossie
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
“I'm not arguing that you are not doing your best at contributing to a new Irish nationalism.”
I think you must be confusing me with someone else there Harry. I’m afraid I actually find it very difficult to be enthusiastic about any form of Nationalism, & that includes Scottish Nationalism, for, as I see it, there is only a very thin line between Nationalism & Racism & Bigotry. In fact, I’m sure some form of racism exists within all nationalist movements.
No, I’m afraid, if I were a political animal, I would personally lean more towards Cosmopolitanism.
Oh, & if you did find my Scottish History offensive, I would perhaps worry about you, for, the way I see it, it’s actually that shared history of being under the thumb from our English neighbours for centuries, which should in fact help to bring Scots & Irish folk together, & of course it very often does.
You say you find the situation I am contributing to, to be offensive, but I think we have already agreed that, by just being here I am contributing, like everyone else up here. If I were to become a recluse though, I would perhaps be trying to absolve myself of all blame for the current ills, but surely to do nothing at all is still contributing, but in a negative way, so I think I’d rather be positive.
As all forms of Nationalism are absolutely riddled with feelings of “pride” & “self cherishing” I think perhaps it might serve this little island better if ‘everyone’, from all communities, was to step back from their own Nationalistic desires.
Perhaps, for all our sakes, it’s all forms of flag waving Nationalism which should in fact be “buried in that bunker, in Cavan.”
............... Then we could get on with the important work of - learning our own, & each other’s, tunes!
By the way, I didn’t need ‘smilies’ to improve my moral at the moment, thank you, for I enjoyed three hours of good tune playing with Captain Sensible, in Tom’s tonight & that’s guaranteed to put a smile on any musicians face!
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Just keep in mind, folks, that at the end of the clip it proclaimed, "Never Surrender." If you go to the website of the person that posted it you'll find more of the same. I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music. There was a political, in-your-face message attached to it. A statement beyond the music was being broadcast.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Now, now PB, & I have already made mention of that political slogan at the end, & how I felt about it, so my views on it are quite clear, but you say:
"I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music."
So tell me, if someone came to our weekly session & filmed us, then stuck a clip on YouTube with some Irish Republican slogan at the end, I suppose you would feel justified in claiming that we, who just happened to be seen playing in the pub that night, in the clip, must therefore all be automatically classed as Republicans?
I agree, the man who produced the clip certainly had something political on his mind when he added that slogan at the end, but let's not get carried away & tar everyone who happened to be in the hall that night, with the same brush, out of hand!
We do get eejits in our session pub, from time to time, who think that just because we're sitting in an old Pub, in a predominantly Catholic town (75/25), playing Irish Traditional Music, that they can just strike up an old Rebel Song with impunity. But believe me, they are very quickly made to realize the error & folly of their ways, as the owners rarely let even the first line of any such provocative diddy be completed, before abruptly stifling the miscreants words.
I agree, the producer may well have been saying one thing with that slogan, but maybe, just maybe, the content was telling a rather different story?
For example, what about all the young children seen in the clip, can you really claim that, just because they were sitting round the hall listening to the music, that they must all be true blue Loyalists?
I often play trad music at Catholic Weddings - doesn't make me a Catholic!
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Incidentally, it may be worth mentioning here, especially for all those of you who like to have everything in neat little boxes, & see everything in terms only of black & white, that it is not only IT musicians who have made much use of Scottish & Ulster tunes over the years.
PB pointed out the Goatwhacker’s website, & if you check out the page on Fifing tunes, you will see a number of Irish tunes that are, & have been, commonly played by Fifers.
“The tunes below are a collection of Irish and Scottish jigs and reels (mostly) but played in 4/4 time as hornpipes. Many are recognisable as modifications of traditional Irish tunes,”
http://www.luton-lambeg.org/music/music_portal.htm#fifing
I would also draw your attention to that excellent website on the Co Antrim Fiddle maker, Hugh Gordon, by Michael Costello.
“His love of music led him to show a great interest in the strong tradition of Ulster Scots fiddle music in the South Antrim area which was frequently performed in the open air, particularly at fairs, markets and other social gatherings in neighbouring towns and villages such as Antrim, Crumlin, Glenavy, Lisburn, Ballyclare, Moira, Lurgan and of course, Belfast.”
In particular, check out Michael’s page on the “Fiddle music in Co.Antrim in the 1830`s”
“This mixture of tunes Irish, Scottish and European is surely indicative of the origins of the Ulster Scots tradition of fiddle playing.”
http://m.maccoisdeala.tripod.com/id7.html
The tune list there makes fascinating reading & you will see a number of Irish tunes & also, interestingly, a number of Scottish tunes which were perhaps at that time in the process of being adopted into the Irish tradition, like Lady (Anne) Montgomery, Miss Gordon’s Reel (possibly Lord Gordon’s Reel ?). I hope this wonderful manuscript, or at least its contents, are published at some stage so that we might all have an opportunity to examine the tune forms.
Long may this healthy cross pollination of tunes continue, both ways.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Flossie,
You have completely misread my post and my position.
The situation "on the ground" as it exists is quite different from the (what could be argued to be a) more positive side of the "Ulster Scots" phenomenon that Dick talks up.
I never 'tried' anything. I just played music with the people in my area whoever they were because I loved music and most things that went with it. It is the 'trying' of certain parties that makes me worry.
In the broader context, the "Ulster Scots" cultural/ racial label is being sold to unionists, outside traditional music hinterlands, as a new unionism ( which explains the mounting "Ulster Scots" content at orange and unionist meetings, events). This is not a good association for traditional music, which I firmly believe is inherently non-sectarian.
Dick, the harmful aspects of nationalism are the great cancer of the 20th century, and it has been the contributor to countless sufferings. I don't think anyone here has suggested that its a particularly a good idea, have they?
BTW, Dick re. your "if we were playing in a session and someone filmed us and then put a republican label on it..." reasoning. Remember that your friends were playing in an orange hall (an organisation that still marginalises women and dislikes catholics to say the least). Maybe if your imaginary session was flimed in a Sinn Fein advice centre you might have an argument that holds some water there.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I'm sorry you see the whole Ulster Scots 'thing' only in terms of doom & gloom Harry. I grant you it may not be perfect, but what is?
I myself, try to look for the positives & surely it is worthwhile trying to build on those, I mean, what is the alternative?
Politicians will always be 'trying' things, that is the nature of the beast.
Musicians for their part, as you well know, are usually just trying to play music together & it must be a step forward to be permitted to see them doing so in this setting, ........ one step at a time Harry eh?
I think the Sinn Fein advice centre is a little way down the road yet, don't you!
Let's be realistic, not farcical.
As for:
"Dick, the harmful aspects of nationalism are the great cancer of the 20th century, and it has been the contributor to countless sufferings. I don't think anyone here has suggested that its a particularly a good idea, have they?"
In which case I'll thank you not to class me as being a part of some form of "new Irish Nationalism"!
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
If I was invited to an obvious republican (US political party) event and was filmed playing tunes and the closing titles included right-wing pro-war slogans -- I would deserve whatever negative associations I received. That's why you'll never see any such clips of me in such a place as that. Your fellas in goatwhacker's clip knew full well where they were and that they were being filmed.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I think it is deeply unwise, given the situation we are coming from in the North, to manufacture further constructs of "difference" between communities. You are directly contributing to that (by labeling strands of existing common culture as property of one ill defined racial group i.e. "Ulster Scots"), and I can only conclude that your refusal to accept that you are part of this is down to a serious blunder in reading the wider situation on your part (i.e. I am not concluding that you are doing it on purpose...that is a positive conclusion is it not?)
Your constant need to state your rather loose position on both the wider implications and the immediate cultural implications informs me that you are more hapless Don Quixote than unionist stooge.
If you want doom and gloom, look into the hearts and minds of your average sectarian biggot. You won't have to travel far.
I am for promoting common heritage and peace. The music is and has always been a free resource. Any labelling relating to ownership is negative in this context, especially when it panders to politicised movements (i.e. the "Ulster Scots"/unionist lobby, republicanism or whatever). What's more, I can see the causes of division and I won't shirk my responsibilities in confronting the idiocy of the sectarianism that I was brought up with and around. This is what it takes to bring about the conditions for peace: people who were brought up to stupidly and blindy accept what they were told about themselves and others to see beyond their seperatist, elitist, triumphalist or downright nihilistic conditioning.
Again, you are directly contributing to the myth of ownership of strands of common Irish culture to one racial group. That group, as they identify themselve ("Ulster Scots") are forming a new socio/political/ religious identity for themselves and broadly consider themselves as either Irish AND Ulster Scots (seperatist) or, in more extreme cases, as another race entirely(completely sepratist).
Wake up and smell the toxic ideaology, Dick. We weren't killing each other for years up there over chocolate buttons. And without resolution, these things simply don't disappear, they just change.
And before you say it again; I know, small steps, laugh together, hold hands on the beach... if you weren't directly contributing to carving up common culture I might find it cute.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
One last thought re. music 'bringing people together':
Viewed impartially this is not always positive in many respects.
(Exclusivly percieved) "Irish" music at overtly republican ceremonies brings people together.
"Ulster Scots" music at overtly loyalist or unionist or Orange ceremonies brings people together.
Both happen at the expense of other people, and both at the expense of the commonality of the music.
The solution? Abandon all dividers, all the 'flavours of the month' that we inflict on the music and each other (i.e. exclusive "Irish" property, "Ulster Scots" music or whatever) . That would be progress, and we would obtain something that we could all be proud of together.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ulster Scots was invented for the "Parity of Esteem" bit in the process. They can't very well give money top promote Irish Language and culture, and ignore the other lot. There actually is a "dialect" of sorts which is Ulster Scots, but as a dialect, not a language, no-body was trying to promore it for centuries.
I do agree with Ptarmigan that the North is changing, and it is all a well planned political plan, but it is still changing for the better. We are now down to the "great unwashed" on both sides, to express opposition. And it is a small minority, getting smaller all the time.
I hate all nationalists, I would be a republican like Ollie Cromwell and those boys. Nationalism does tend to be about "we are the super race", as typified by nationalists like Hitler and Thatcher.
In the present world, run entirely by an elite group of capitalists who have brain washed all and sundry through the media, mainly TV, I doubt if your wish will ever be realised Harry, much as I would love to se it come true.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I though I was meant to be the gloomy one, p*ssing on people's contentious parades?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan, having followed your (mostly) humorous, constructive, knowledgeable, and helpful rambles for some time now, I would urge you to sit back and enjoy a virtual drink with me and the (no doubt) countless others who love you dearly.
*Raises glass respectfully*
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by oldstrings
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Blissters wrote: "In the present world, run entirely by an elite group of capitalists who have brain washed all and sundry through the media, mainly TV, I doubt if your wish will ever be realised Harry, much as I would love to se it come true."
Yep... very true... that sums it all up rather succinctly I'd say.
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Button, you said - "I don't believe the clip portrayed peace-loving people simply enjoying some trad music." That was what I was objecting to, for there were quite a few children at that event, & whatever conclusions you might wish to 'jump to' regarding the adults, let's, at least give the children the benefit of the doubt!
Harry, when we arrived here 16 years ago, gable ends in Loyalist Belfast & Derry were plastered with large paintings of balaclava'd soldiers, armed to the teeth, with intentionally provocative & intimidating slogans attached.
Today, you are far more likely to see those same gable ends depicting 'Ulster Scots' musicians & dancers. That must surely be for the good.
Now I know there is still an underlying separatist mindset behind a lot of those, but it is, for me at least, a move in the right direction & if it even in a small way helps young kids on those street to grow up wishing they were Ulster Scots Musicians & Dancers rather than Loyalist Gunmen & Terrorists, then, in my own Don Quixote way, I guess I'm for it.
Far from denying that I am part of the problem, I already accepted that I, like everyone else up here, is, just as you surely are yourself too, when you apparently refuse to encourage change, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant, when it is so surely, at least moving in a positive direction.
If that 'conditioning' you speak of is creating musicians rather than terrorists, then I'm for it.
We can't kid ourselves that there are not still two sides to this picture up here, but if we have moved away from Loyalist V Nationalist, to that of Irish V Ulster Scots, I see that as a softening of the edges.
Next step might be to get rid of the - V?
But that's down the road a piece.
Let's stop 'always' talking about the killing, however hard that may be, & not simply expect some sort of magical change to take place. I think we need to encourage change.
The 'culture' was carved up a long time ago, but I think it might just be taking baby steps towards re-uniting, in a long, tortuous, roundabout sort of a way.
Not so long ago, you would have been likely to hear Loyalists swear they had not an ounce of Celtic blood in them. Now we see them enjoying Irish Music! I'm for it.
".."Irish" music at overtly republican ceremonies brings people together. "Ulster Scots" music at overtly loyalist or unionist or Orange ceremonies brings people together. Both happen at the expense of other people, and both at the expense of the commonality of the music."
Yes, so why can't you welcome the fact that we saw Irish music being played at an overtly loyalist gathering?
Surely, by your logic, that does encourage a coming together?
Thanks Bliss, I agree - change for the better has to be change for the better.
Oldstrings, thanks, I'm going to take your advice & am just about to put on my glad rags, no not dungarees, & head off to the 'Bluegrass Festival'.
Where I expect to find the park full of good Ulster Folk, from all walks of life, just enjoying good music.
Yes folks, music can, & does, bring people together!
Yeee Haaa!
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"Far from denying that I am part of the problem, I already accepted that I, like everyone else up here, is, just as you surely are yourself too, when you apparently refuse to encourage change, no matter how small & seemingly insignificant, when it is so surely, at least moving in a positive direction..."
Dick, you are so seemingly deaf to my reasoning that it is useless to disscuss this any further. If ever you get your head out of the fur lined hole you have dug for it we might have an intelligent conversation that doesn't involve you wallowing in the comfort of your own, entrenched (but very culturally aggresive position). What are you going to claim for the "Ulster Scots" version of peace next? Why MUST this come at the cost of the commonality of our common heritage?
"If that 'conditioning' you speak of is creating musicians rather than terrorists, then I'm for it."
To someone who came from the sort of area alluded to, this is offensively simplistic. It seems to imply that the youth of the largely urban housing estates that supply the meat for sectarian violence in some way have a connection with traditional music: THE VAST MAJORIY OF THEM DON'T. The vast majority of them, like other kids, want to play playstations and listen to pop music. The vast majority of them are doing this and are not aware and/or concerned with traditional music. The vast majority of then think that folky do-gooders are goofy assholes.
It is us 'clever' grown ups who inflict our cultural/political agendas on them with our murals and our costume wearing and our great ideas.
If we simply left our kids alone and created the conditions for peace for them politically like decent human beings they wouldn't require the "Ulster Scots" answer to Hitler's Youth to indoctrinate them culturally.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
p.s. I think it's plain to see that the music played at said Orange event was (in keeping with their seperatist agenda) "Ulster Scots" and billed thus. The day I look forward to is when Orange, "Ulster Scots"and all the other sectarian geared crap is laid to rest by more intelligent and responsible people.
pps. On second thoughts, keep making rediculous assertions: I think we are perfectly exposing the pervasive little myth for exactly what it is.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick, I wasn't referring to the kids in that clip. It was predominantly adults who were playing the music.
# Posted on September 3rd 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Aaah, I spent a lovely day yesterday, up at the Bluegrass Festival, near Omagh where the park was full of Ulster folk from, no doubt, all religious & political backgrounds - just enjoying good music.
For the past sixteen years this festival has been bringing folks together.
Sixteen years ago though, I don't believe anyone up here would have imagined in their wildest dreams seeing many, if any, Loyalists, Orange men or even many Unionists at a Trad Music Festival in the North!
Thankfully today, many of the festivals now have their own 'Ulster Scots' element, which, whether you like the 'label' or not, has actually helped to encourage hundreds of Unionists to go along to these events & enjoy what, to them, are 'mixed' concerts, but to musicians are just music concerts.
You may not like the labels, or the political thinking behind some of these movements, but they, like it or not, are helping to bring peoples together.
At Portglenone's Gig'n the Bann last weekend for example, there was great ITM on the same bill as Pipe Bands, Ulster Scots Rhyme etc etc.
Now it's true, some of the organisers of such events, I know, don't like this Ulster Scots phenomenon any more than you do Harry, & share your suspicions, but they cynically take it on board quite simply because their are cash incentives in the form of large grants.
So I freely admit, the politicians are sticking their beaks in, so what’s new, but the end result is, despite the cynicism & mistrust, folks are slowly coming together to share good music.
Sixteen years ago I couldn't go & watch a concert which had Pipe Bands, ITM, Flute Bands, Ulster Rhymes, Irish Dancers, Scottish Dancers all on the same bill – now I can, so somebody is doing something right.
I’m not saying this is all down to the U.S. movement, but it is helping this softening of the boundaries & edges process.
It doesn't really matter does it, who is the major player, it just matters that it is moving in the right direction.
There is no such thing as stagnation - if the process is not moving forward, it's surely moving backwards!
We might not like the labels but if the moves are positive, then let's give them a chance.
By the way Button, yes there were children in that hall, listening to & playing music, but I enjoyed seeing them being given the opportunity to listen to Irish Music, a thing that just couldn’t have happened, not so very long ago.
Oh & of course Harry, I wasn’t suggesting for one moment that those wall murals are going to encourage every estate kid to rush out & start playing trad music, but are you telling me you’d rather see guns & balaclavad ‘soldiers’ up there instead of musicians & dancers?
One day there may finally be no Murals at all on walls, nor flags waving, nor kerb stones painted, there are certainly far fewer these days.
You say - “the "Ulster Scots" answer to Hitler's Youth to indoctrinate them culturally.” - but remember the Loyalists & Nationalist have each been indoctrinating their own’ Youth’ for more than thirty years, & sadly, evil as indoctrination is, we’re not going to see that change overnight, but if that indoctrination moves away from one of aggression & conflict - it has to be regarded as an improvement, even if only a slight one.
I know there’s a lot of “sectarian crap” out there, but it is not going to wash itself away, & I think we can do more than just stay detached from the problems, & sit comfortably on our moral high ground, condemning every small step forward out of hand, simply because it doesn’t offer ‘the perfect’ solution, that suits our way of thinking.
I must say, when, in these discussions, someone finds it necessary to raise their voice with italics & starts to refer to the Killings & Hitler, I think it is time to move on, especially when name calling rears it’s ugly head.
I don’t think it is I who is adopting an “aggresive position” here at all, & God knows you may have every right to feel aggressive about the past, but I have no wish to sink to the depths of a slanging, name calling match, so I’ll bow out here. We’re probably starting to go round in circles anyway.
P.S. I may well have a “goofy asshole”, must admit I haven’t looked for a while, but I always try to treat you & your views with respect.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Maybe its my turn to get frustrated?
Don't take it personally, city kids who I've played for in Dublin and the North thought I was an asshole too... and that the music was sh*te.
I'm glad that you have revised your opinion and that 'it' is now all "Bluegrass".
ingrained hatred of a religious other? distorted view of indigenious culture? Colourful gatherings with banners, bands and uniforms?
I don't think 'Hitler's Youth' is a bad comparison. Many German's still remember it very fondly, that was their childhood from which they have to seperate the horrors and excesses of Adolf H. How did they know Hitler was going to turn out like he did, they were just kids having a good time absorbing what was presented to them in a neat and fun little package??????........
It wasn't terribly well thought through either.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
No surrender is a slogan of the siege mentality of many loyalists as is 'Tiocfaidh ár lá' for many republcans. At a session at Letterkenny a girl sang a couple of hunger strike ballads about Mickey Devine and Patsy O'Hara and finished with the said epithet. I didn't particularly like it but I also dont believe that everyone at that session should be tarred with a brush held by the singer.
It might just as easily be concluded that the guys on the video did not subscribe to the feelings expressed by the howler.
I know Geordie and George well and while they may very well hold strong political beliefs about the union they are in no way bigoted.
George Holmes has been a member of the 'Different Drums' initiative for many years, bringing bodhranistas and lambeggers together for joint projects.
Geordie, a past master of the Black Preceptory in Ballywalter, has played tunes at festivals such as Derrygonelly etc for many years and has no problem playing along with the son of an IRA man from west Belfast - me.
And the playing of tunes in Orange Halls is not a new phenomenon - I used to play at a session out near Killinchey and a couple of older women told me of how they used to enjoy the ceili at Carrickmannon Orange Hall back in the 50's.
So lets untwist the knickers here and recognise that the boys were just having a good night out?
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by breandan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Oh and by the way - I have no problem with songs about the hunger strike - I campaigned for Bernadette McAliskey in my Mc Neills van during the European elections that year! But I do have a wee bit of problem with the Yah Boo slogans.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by breandan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dear Breandan,
I don't think anybody has denied that they were just having 'a good night out'. The differences in perceptions, and the disagreements, here are more to do with the wider perceptions of strands of common culture.
I have no problem with Irish music (or whatever they are calling it this week) being played in orange halls or anywhere, it has been happening organically, in an uncontrived fashion, for some time as you state. I have problems with the sectarian nature of the orange order itself and with movements actively seeking to associate common Irish culture with them under the guise of 'progress'. This is happening up to a political level.
I hardly need to restate why I might come to this thoroughly unreasonable position. Words become meaningless if you have to constantly restate aversion ot the absurdity of an openly sectarian organisation that often display bigoted elements.
We can't make progress AND hold on to our idiotic, indulgent distortions from the past: and we certainly can not just reinvent other people's past and expect them to play ball.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"'it' is now all "Bluegrass" - Of course the Bluegrass I was referring to Harry was taking place at a Bluegrass festival, at the Ulster American Folk Park, as I stated, so no confusion or revision there - at all!
Interestingly though, there were actually many shades of Bluegrass on display yesterday, including Gospel, Old Time & Blues as well as the hard core Bluegrass itself at the event I attended, just as there were many shades of Traditional Music on display at Portglenone over the weekend.
I have no doubt there were certain political undertones to the mix at Gig'n the Bann, but of course there were none at all at the Omagh Folk Park, in time perhaps that will be the case at Portglenone too.
But, at the likes of Portglenone, it is good to finally get an opportunity to see both musical traditions in action side by side, on the same stage, & more & more festivals up here are being seen to follow that path each year.
There needs to be more & more sharing & melding of these perceived cultural aspects before any of us practitioners can ever hope that they might ever merge to form one large musical culture, shared by all here.
That would be a long way down the road & even if & when that might happen, it would still, like Bluegrass Music, always maintain its several different branches.
Despite your staunch pessimism in these matters Harry, I am confident that individualism will out, in the end, it is quite simply too intrinsic a part of human nature to be stifled for too long!
Breandan - "And the playing of tunes in Orange Halls is not a new phenomenon" - quite so.
I have myself been told on many occasions by many of the older musicians up here in this area of North Antrim, that most of the old Saturday night dances were held in local Orange Halls & that a wide variety of tunes were played.
But I think the point is that that was more often the case, only back in the so called 'good old days' - before 'the troubles'!
Nice too, to hear someone in the know, set the record straight regarding Geordie.
I have only respect for him, & others like him who were not afraid, even through the troubles, to be seen, aye & to be seen involving themselves musically, with both camps.
Of course he was not alone, for there are & were others like e.g. John Kennedy & Sammy Wade.
P. S. My knickers only got in a 'twist' when I was checking to see if my 'asshole' was in fact 'goofy'!
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
Your take on my view of these matters as 'pessimistic' betrays your inability to understand these issues in any way near their full contexts. I consider your comment on these matters to be a broadly ignorant one. But please do not misinterpret this (as you do much of the rest of what I type) as a prompt from me for you to stop.
Re: Setting the record straight about Geordie. When was the record not straight? Has anyone said anything that wasn't true or that was unfair?
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick - even throughout the troubles there was a large contingent of 'prods' playing tunes and in the unlikeliest of places. People like Leslie Bingham and Terry Brown were regular attendees at Tom Kelly's in the Short Strand even during the worst of the tit for tat killings.
And as I mentioned in a previoius thread, the UVF in Newtownards placed a blast bomb outside the Jolly Judge becuase they were not going to have any 'Fenian Music' about the place. Every one of the musicians was, in fact, a prod.
Harry,
No issue here with the analysis of the Orange Order but we do have to deal with the reality that many 'good' people belong to the order and do not see it as others [we] do. Brian Kennaway, for example, has long argued that the order needs to get back to it's 'christian' roots and be less political. Indeed he lectured on the very point during the west Belfast Feile last month.
If recognising that the music is part of the common heritage helps to break down some barriers then that can only be to the good.
Gary Hastings has lectured at a number of events on the fact that many fife and drum bands in the Orange tradition had a significant amount of their repertoire in common with the diddleys.
It was only during the troubles that many people formed the wrong opinion that the music belonged to only one side. This was addressed at some length a number of years ago when our Ciaran organised a weekend conference with the title 'Whose music is it anyway?' and a book on the proceedings was published that covers many of these issues.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by breandan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Breandan,
I have no problem with the idealogical reform of the orange order at all. Bring it on! But there are other 'realities' that it would be foolish to deny. We see the problem, then we go about fixing it. I don't think that the orange order was ever particularly christian (as in, they didn't seek to emphasise and/or embrace the teachings of Christ with regards to their fellow, non protestant, man). Maybe their interpretation of 'christianity' owes/owed more to the old testament?
I'm all for common heritage like you say. I'm not for labelling common heritage with racial undertones and religious/ political BS i.e."Ulster Scots". This is dividing up common heritage/ building barriers, not breaking down barriers.
"Whose Music Anyway?" I agree. Not Irish/catholic/protestant/"Ulster Scots"/ republican... not any of that. Its everybody's. No divisions.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"We proclaim "Civil and religious liberty for all : special privileges for none". We do not deny to others their civil and religious liberties; we expect the same tolerance from them. We shall be strong for truth, for peace, for the making of a good, fair and just society to which we shall contribute liberally as good citizens."
Hard to argue with that - taken from the Grand Lodge of Ireland website.
The fact that many do not live up to the ideal is neither here nor there.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by breandan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Och Harry, so now I'm 'ignorant' too!
Ah well, I think in the final analysis, I would rather be considered as someone who was ignorant, but at least was trying in his own small way to be positive, and at least do his little bit to try & encourage a greater understanding by all the folks up here, in all the forms of traditional music played here (whatever some folks like to call it), than someone who simply sat on the sidelines, & refused to voice an opinion, afraid to take a chance.
Or perhaps worse still, an intellectual, who therefore probably should have known better, but refused to even consider the possibility that, just perhaps, he didn't actually have all the correct answers after all, & in so doing, promoted the missing of opportunities for a way forward, that might just have helped music to be better shared & understood by all.
Re: Geordie & - “Has anyone said anything that wasn't true or that was unfair?”
I know you plucked something Geordie once said out of a conversation & displayed it here, but we here have no real way of knowing what the context of that conversation was & no way of knowing whether or not his voice may have in fact had a sarcastic or ironic tone to it, or indeed what the rest of that conversation was all about, at all, ....at all.
Had we been there to hear it all, in its entirety, it may well have painted a very different picture - we are not to know.
That is why I believe it was only fair that someone who obviously knows this man well, was able to offer us his view, for balance.
I think if we were all afraid that, like politicians, we were going to have all of our conversations recorded & then used in sound bite form against us in the future, there’d be a lot less friendly chit chat at informal, friendly gatherings.
Not to mention more guarded comments here on this site!
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Scarey times indeed Breandan. Let's hope they are all behind us.
I do remember Loyalist threats being made against Session pubs a number of years ago in Belfast & Derek Bell, if I remember correctly, stepped forward at that time & pointed out publicly, how many of those sessions actually had a number of Protestant players in them & how after all it was only traditional music they were playing, music which had always been enjoyed by Protestants & Catholics alike.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
"Members of the Orange Institution are pledged to uphold the Protestant faith and liberty under the law. They are neither bigots nor extremists. Standing for tolerance and compassion towards all they also stand for the underlying principle of the Christian faith and the dignity and rights of the individual.
The Orange Order is fundamentally a Christian organisation. The Institution stands in the Reformed tradition as the various statements contained in the "Qualifications" illustrate:-
LOVE OF GOD - "a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father. He should never take the name of God in vain".
FAITH IN CHRIST - "steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind".
AUTHORITY OF SCRIPTURE - "he should honour and diligently study the Holy Scriptures and make them the rule of his faith and practice".
We are committed to the cause of Civil and Religious Liberty for all. It is our desire to live at peace with all men and to ensure that all men have peace in which to live."
Again, a straight lift from the aforementioned website.
Yes, of course, there are many bigoted eejits who belong to the order but there are also many who would eschew such views.
My own 'Uncle Dickie' was an orangeman from the Shankill Road who took us on our holidays every year when we had no car of our own. A mate of my Da's from the GPO, he was a true gentleman in every sense. For many year's we used to go down to the Lisburn Rd to watch the demonstration on the 12th and many's the bowler hatted, sword weilding, glove wearing marcher waved at my Da and us.
Now dont get me wrong - my Da changed his view in later years and saw the demonstrations as nothing but coat trailing but what did not change was his view that everyone should be judged on how you find them and that labels are a slovenly way to judge others.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by breandan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
My own grandfather was an orange man (my mother and her side of the family are protestant), who hated no one and who distanced himself from his urban lodge when sedition started to creep in after the bouts of conflict that flared up around the civil rights movement.
Compare that to the orange men who, after the UFF had shot dead 5 catholic men in an Ormeau rd. betting shop, marched down the road taunting the traumatised locals with gestures of five raised fingers (i.e. that's five to us). Paisley, the consumate catholic hater, is a proud and well regarded orange man of course.There was always trouble around orange marches in urban areas BTW. My father clearly remembers tension and confrontation in the Short Strand where he grew up (pre- civil rights movement).
Like many movements it has its moderates and its extremes. Its fair and real to say that, at the very least, it has an ingrained and widespread anti-catholic culture.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
I'm going to call everybody from outside Ireland "Nigger" from now on, just for the shock value, or for a laugh.
I know exactly what Geordie was at. It was unnesscary and it wasted on the company, who were all nice, reasonable enough people. We all make mistakes, once we try not to make a habit of it.
The National Front was openly tolerated in loyalist areas of course. They had a main office in East Belfast near Ligoneel Leisure Centre if my memory serves me.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan,
I am at a loss here (not an unusual condition for me, I’m afraid). Within this same thread you seem to describe the Youtube segment’s percussive racket within (what can only be described as) that dismal setting as “… enjoying some good Traditional music”.
Later in the discussion you describe yourself as:
“…an intellectual, who therefore probably should have known better, …”.
Your judgement in describing the former clearly negates your claim to the latter.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by dannyky
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Re. Ulster, "Ulster Scots" and Ulster Nationalism:
From Wikipedia:
"...However whilst support for Ulster nationalism has tended to be reactive to political change, the theory also underlines the importance of Ulster cultural nationalism and the separate identity of the people of Ulster. As such Ulster nationalist movements have been at the forefront of supporting the Orange Order and upholding the 12th July marches as important parts of this cultural heritage, as well as encouraging the growth of the Ulster Scots language."
From this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_nationalism
You couldn't possibly be contributing to an Ulster nationalism could you, Dick? Of course not.
The whole article is probably part of some pan republican plot or something.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dannyky, firstly, let me try to clear this up for you.
In my last posting I said, & I quote:
"I would rather be considered as someone who was ignorant, ..... than someone who simply sat on the sidelines, ... Or perhaps worse still, an intellectual,"
So, you see, you mis-read my post & as I hope you now see, I never did describe myself as an intellectual.
Trust me dannyky, if you speak to anyone at any of the sessions I go to, & asked for a list of musical intellectuals - my name would most definitely 'NOT' feature on any of their lists.
Secondly, I am not a percussionist, & even although I do dabble in the Bodhran, I do not consider that to be sufficient to class myself as being some kind of expert in that field.
As I'm sure you are aware, the big wide world of percussion is so much more than just ITM Bodhran playing.
So I am not really qualified to judge another's percussive art form, so even although I do not understand many & probably most musical forms from the many regions of this diverse planet, I would still not jump to the conclusion that the music they were playing was simply a "percussive racket".
I would, as a generous minded sort of a bloke, give them the benefit of the doubt.
We can all too naturally favour our own music over other forms, partly perhaps because we have grown up with it, or become well acquainted with it over years of exposure, or from becoming emersed ourselves in the subtleties of its forms, as we have learned to play it.
But just because, for example, in my ignorance of the form, the sight & sound of say a dozen Hurdy Gurdy players accompanied by a dozen French Pipers sounded strange to my ears, I don't think then that it would automatically give me the right to condemn it out of hand, as a "percussive racket"!
Much of the East European music sounds strange to my ears, but I'm sure it sounds absolutely glorious & just as joyfull to them as ITM sounds to us.
As for the "dismal setting" you refer to, I'd just like to say that I have played in many a strange place over the years, including a number of Comhaltas Halls, which gave forth no warmer a glow, on first sight, than the one you perceived from that clip.
However, you must admit, it is very difficult to gauge from such a short clip, whether people are enjoying themselves or not.
Let’s be honest here, people do not always grin & smile when they are watching, listening to or indeed even playing traditional music.
Some of the dourist faces you'll ever see are on the faces of musicians in many an ITM Pub Session & I should know, mine's one of them, but honest, believe me or believe me not, I am enjoying myself!
Lambeg playing may or may not be my cup of tea, but to my way of thinking I do not have the right to slag it off, for me that is surely only truly the right of another Lambeg player who fully understands it.
Coming from anyone else it would just be seen as being - plain rude.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Well firstly, I see you are still advocating calling people names Harry. “I'm going to call everybody from outside Ireland "Nigger" from now on”
I think there has been far too much name calling down through the years, it’s almost an Ulster trait by now!
Never did help the situation & never will ...... in my opinion.
As for your Wikipedia quote, I’m on record here as stating that I believe Ulster Scots is no more than a dialect, so let’s leave that out of your assumptions & assertions shall we!
I’m amazed at your Northern powers of deduction though Harry.
You can tell I am a raving Ulster Nationalist, simply because I confess that I think it is a good thing that we try & get back to the days when Irish Music & Scottish Music was played & enjoyed together by all - Sherlock Holmes look out!
I think there are far too many people bogged down in those old see saw politics ......... yer no for us, so yer agin us!
So as well as name calling, folks up here have grown up with this mentality that everyone has to be labelled & put in their wee box, and you seem to be no different Harry.
I’m not saying I do, but for all you know, I may actually advocate 'The third way':
http://www.thirdway.org/
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
You're reading my posts all wrong again. I never accused you of anything other than being well wide of the mark in branding strands of our common heritage with the "Ulster Scots" brand.
I haven't called anybody a name unreasonably. Maybe you could clarify?
I think you're just hearing things you don't want to hear, and in the absence of any reasonable, quantitive response you're getting a lip on you as you've done before.
It is plain to see though that your assertions could be (probably are) playing directly into the ideas of Ulster nationalists. I don't care about your politics. That's all I said if you care to review.
If you're so concerned with the negatives of name calling then stop rudely calling things that don't belong to anybody "Ulster Scots".
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Ptarmigan,
Thanks for the reminder to keep my mind (and ears) open when engaging the wide music of the world. Thankfully, these past few years have brought a big breakthrough for me on that front.
On one occasion I had spent the better part of an afternoon listening live to indigenous Suliwesian music (and watching the highly stylized dance that accompanies same). It’s sort of a rhythmic mesh of stringed instruments and little metal pots that serve as gongs. I was way into it. I attribute my ability to appreciate the Suliwesian music to my own deep encounter with ITM.
On another occasion I had the opportunity to make daylong music for four or five straight weekends with a leading North American proponent of the veuze and the bombard. I took a shot at some guitar accompaniment, and, after gaining some familiarity with “strange” time signatures, laid down some simple but effective chordal accompaniment to the man’s music -gaining the odd nod from him as well. (Much of the music lay within modes that are very familiar to me via ITM).
My third instance involves a tangential encounter with The Balkans. Nearly two years ago a troop of very anxious young men gathered at a pub gig of ours. They were p*ss drunk - Military reservists - getting shipped off to Kosovo to supervise an election there. They returned intact just a few months ago, and reported that they had been playing a CD of our homebred Irish Traditional music in their humvee, when a group of young Serb kids approached and to commenced calling them scurrilous names for “Roma” (I.e. the indigenous travelers of that area.). Our music had apparently been mistaken for Balkan gypsy music (I’ve really got to work on my phrasing I suppose). In fact, their leader - Lt. Kearney - was henceforth known in that mountainous village as “The Yankee Roma”.
So you see Ptarmigan, being isolated amidst the Eastern mountains of this little Continent to your west does afford me the occasional encounter with music beyond our beloved washtub bass, fiddle and banjo. I hope that I have convinced you that I have some ability to trust my own judgment regarding what I hear and see.
What I see and hear on the Youtube link (above) is indeed a percussive racket.... leaving it at that is being kind. I thank you for backing off your claim (amidst the world music instructional briefing) to being an intellectual.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by dannyky
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
This gets better, so now I'm an "ignorant goofy asshole, with a lip on" me - sheees, I'm beginning to feel more & more like Quasimodo by the minute!
Normally, I might have mentioned bells here, but I'm afraid I'd just temp the wrath of our friendly Morris Man!
"If you're so concerned with the negatives of name calling then stop rudely calling things that don't belong to anybody "Ulster Scots"."
Interestingly Harry, if you cast that keen analytical eye of yours back across this thread for a moment, you will notice that it is in fact yourself who appears to have a fondness for using the term:
I reckon I used it only 8 times ..... while you have used it - 20 times!
- make of that what you will!
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Very poor, Dick. I'm hardly the one touting it with my own website. But I suppose its as good as any other argument you've offered.
Yeah this crowd are great. Ulster Nationalism, 'Ulster Scots' and the British National Front together at last!
Ulster Third Way:
"The Ulster Third Way is the Northern Ireland branch of the Third Way and is organised by David Kerr, who had previously campaigned as an 'independent Unionist' (chairing the small North Belfast Independent Unionist Association) as well as for the British National Front. As well as sharing the Third way's aims U3W (as it is sometimes shortened to) is committed to securing independence for Northern Ireland from both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. U3W tends to focus its attentions on trying to build up grass-roots support in Loyalist areas, emphasising Ulster-Scots and the Battle of the Boyne commemorations and has its main office in the Shankill area of Belfast. Despite this approach U3W remains a very minor force in Northern Irish politics. The group publishes a journal Ulster Nation, as well as irregular books and pamphlets about Ulster nationalism "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Third_Way
Disturbing,.
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dannyky, if you feel it is fair to judge the musical merits, or otherwise, of this instrument, from hearing it, on a poor recording & in the unnatural setting of a small hall, given that this instrument is after all really only designed, like the Great Highland Bagpipe & I suspect the Bombarde & Binou too, for outdoor use, then so be it, you are of course entitled to your opinion.
You won't be the first, or the last no doubt, to be rude about another's music on this site.
I have seen some really dreadful video clips of music at YouTube, but I don't always assume that just because the sound quality is bad, that the music was that bad!
Personally, I have no knowledge of the Lambeg tradition first hand, other than the little I hear on the street here & on TV, so I don't feel I am in any position to judge the merits of this instrument's music.
However, as a musician myself I do usually, as a rule of thumb, try to give the other musician the benefit of the doubt.
Also, as I never actually made any claim to being an intellectual, as I have already very clearly shown, I have therefore nothing to back off from!
If you are not clear on this point, perhaps you should read my last post again.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
What's incredible about the website link that you posted is that, browsing it, you could be mistaken for not thinking that this crowd were a bunch of racist, neo fascist nuts.
Good old wikipedia. If anybody was impressed by this crowd's website then you should read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28UK%29
Neo fascism by any other name...and disguised quite well, the stuff you *really* have to watch.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
As you know Harry, & just for the record, I took that link from the previous link you posted.
Good man, & just to keep you amused, if that little political box you now have me in doesn’t suit you, then can I also say that - “I’m not saying I do, but for all you know, I may actually advocate”:
The Third Reich:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_the_Third_Reich
or
The Communist Party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party
or
The Monster Raving Loony Party:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Raving_Loony_Party
or of course I might be a member of the ever popular 'Alliance Party for the Sake of Azerbaijan':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Party_for_the_Sake_of_Azerbaijan
By the way - "I'm hardly the one touting it with my own website."
Isn’t it interesting then that you have probably used the term ‘Ulster Scots’ more often on this thread than I use it on my whole website, & even then, I only use the term when quoting the U. S. Agency or the U. S. Orchestra!
For the website you refer to is actually my ‘Scots-Irish Music’ site, where I attempt to understand this music that is being called Ulster-Scots by so many people up here today & I use the term ‘Scots-Irish’ there, for the same reason that I would use the term Irish-Americans, for I don’t see them as being American-Irish.
To me those people are of Irish descent, living in America, just as these folks here may be of Scottish descent, living in Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ulster!
For anyone interested, here is my introductory page which, I hope, demonstrates that this site is actually trying more to ask questions than divide & conquer, as you seem to think my mission is Harry.
If anyone here can suggest any terminology which might allay the fears of folk like Harry, I would be interested to hear your ideas?
‘Scots-Irish Music’
“This site looks at the instruments, the many forms of music, & some of the musicians, that go to make up the music, referred to today as that of the 'Ulster-Scots', or the 'Scots-Irish' or the 'Scotch-Irish'.
But what is this music? Is it simply Scottish Music played in Ulster by the descendants of Scottish planters? Is it in fact Irish Music that has been heavily influenced by Scottish Music, as in Donegal, & which someone once described as being simply "bad Scottish Music". Or is it something totally unique to those people of Ulster who are descended from the Scots. Music, which not only reflects their historic musical links with Scotland, but which has also been influenced by the Irish Music which is all around, and yet, which retains it's own very individual traits which give it a character all of it's own?
To put you in the picture, this site has not been put together by an Ulsterman with all the answers, but rather by an interested Scotsman, a blow-in, who has an enquiring mind, who is seeking answers to questions. I am no professor who is attempting to gain brownie points with a learned paper on this subject - shucks, I don't even have a 3rd level education. I am simply presenting my observations & findings & leaving the reader to make up their own minds. What I most certainly do not have in mind here is any political agenda, the mission is simply about music, music, music, that's all. So if you are reading politics into any of this, you are on the wrong site!
However, if you are reading this, & are part of the Ulster-Scots, Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish traditions, I would very much like to hear from you, to learn what this music is for you & means to you.
Incidentally, for the purpose of this site, the term Ulster, refers to the old historic Ulster, that is the nine counties, which have each seen their share of Scottish settlers, over the years.”
http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/scots.irish.html
Just for the record too, this site is a mere fraction of my site as a whole, most of which concerns itself with looking quite simply, at the ‘Traditional Music’ of North Antrim, & most of this would probably be classed by everyone here as Irish Music. So which ‘box’ should I put myself in now?
There is of course a page on the ‘Old Time Music’ of Appalachia too. But does that fact mean that I might be suspected of being for the movement to form a breakaway government in Appalachia? ...... I think not!
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
Do your failures to capture the basic gist of my messages know no bounds? I didn't associate you IN ANY WAY with the above political entities. I have clearly stated that I don't care what your personal politics are, and I mean it. I will continue to expose the sensitive underbelly of Ulster Nationalism and how "Ulster Scots" or whatever you call it relates to it, you can keep annoying yourself and repeating yourself by assuming that I am including you in every criticism I make about various groups, thats up to you, but its just another bizzarre (if particularly tiresome) set of bewildering assertions that you feel the need to inflict on this discussion.
I urge people to consider any implied political/religious/racial theft of our commonality in the same light as I consider "Ulster Scots". I will gladly contribute if I can with honesty.
I persued the above links because of their relevance to the topic as it is now and as it has been for some time: Identity and 'Irish music'. The above links have no content that relates directly to the "Ulster Scots" cartoon, the links I followed up on very definately did. Try not to feel so hard done by. If you haven't a leg to stand on you should expect the odd wobble.
Regardless of the labels used (they are nonsense to me, so I'm not overly careful with their use) you go on to state in your nonsense blurb:
"Who plays Scots-Irish Music?
It is played by the Pipe Bands, the Fifers with their Lambeg Drummers, the Flute Bands, the Accordion Bands who all have their own repertoires, and the country Fiddlers & Whistlers, who play whatever they hear, & like.
So, just as Irish Music has absorbed many external musical influences over the years, both instruments & music, including much music from Scotland, so the music of the **Ulster-Scots musicians** has absorbed much from Scottish & English musical traditions, & from Irish Music too.
Many of these musicians have also been adept at composing tunes which are, for them, characteristic of their own unique environment. Take, for example, the many great Fife Tunes that have been written in Co Antrim. "<<<<<
Once more, my criticism (in case even at this late stage you have anything insightful or substantial to state): this would seek to assign a racial identifier to strands of common culture. This is inherently unwise. People will disagree with this, Gary Hastings(who you seem to have some respect for) disagrees with this in the case of Antrim Fife tradition. Get over it.
Now, your turn to try and read this as some sort of attack on your political outlook (which I still don't care or know about in the least. If it is as shakey as your Ulster/Scots/Irish/wherever next stuff it hardly warrants debate!)
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 4th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
In your last thread alone, you talk about "personal politics", "Ulster Nationalism", "implied political/religious/racial theft", "political outlook"! So once again you have managed to turn the debate away from music & round to your hobby horse - N. I. Politics.
You can imply all sorts of political motives behind my interest in the 'Ulster-Scots' music, while denying that interest at the same time, if you wish.
I assume you naturally do this because, as you are obviously a very political person yourself, you just assume that everyone else must be automatically fascinated &/or motivated by politics.
But believe me, many folk, & I'm sure I am not alone, just yawn when they see the word politics, especially so many times - on a music forum!
I've said it before & I'll say it one more time, I am interested in learning about the traditional music in the area surrounding my new home, here in North Antrim .... as anyone who glances through my 'whole' website will see.
Now for me to ignore the huge phenomenon up here today which is popularly known as 'Ulster Scots' Music, would be negligent on my part, in the extreme, so it surely must form part of my site if I am truly trying to present an honest picture of the traditional music scene here today.
However, were I to adopt the very aggressive, antagonistic attitude that you clearly show towards this concept, on my site, it would be very unlikely that I would ever receive any feedback from the community here, which is slowly embracing this music, many of whom perhaps had little or no interest in 'any' form of traditional music until recently, or if they had, they perhaps didn't feel safe to shout about it.
So, if you don't mind, I'll go back to my "Don Quixote", as you put it, style approach to my interests in the music of this area & leave you to your political machinations.
As a parting ‘musical’ thought though, you might like to glance at this page:
‘List of North American Folk Music Traditions’:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_folk_music_traditions
Isn’t it fascinating how there are so many musical traditions on that one continent, with so much of it overlapping.
Now if I were to set up a website which claimed to look at all these musical traditions, how could I possibly justify leaving one of them off the list?
Good Luck
# Posted on September 5th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Of course, Dick, you have yet to prove that "Ulster Scots" is a separate, defined "musical tradition" in content like the ones on the website. I don't think you have the insight, the methods, the language, OR the source material to do that (i.e. it doesn't exist as 'a separate', and you can't prove it!).
I think it is clear for all to see that it is merely an implied label stemming from a desire to create a difference in an already troubled and fractured situatuion. This is certainly done in cultural circles, and wider circles, for political/religious reasons. Are you doing it? **I'm repeatedly giving you the benifit of the doubt in saying that I don't think so**. But I am responding to the info that you are supplying, it is insubstantial nonsense. So your motivation doesn't make your mistakes any more correct.
I can't help considering your view on this ignorant if you don't give any substantial evidence to back up your claims of some, separate, identifyable "Ulster Scots" music. Yet you complain and question my line of questioning, ever trying to portray it as "agrressive" (which it is, for good reason) and "pessimistic"; I must say I do wonder why you seem to have invested so emotionally in this inherently divisive, futile little crusade for "Ulster/Irish Scots" invention? Why don't you do some study to be able to defend your rediculous claims if it means that much to you?
Wether you like it or not, or mean it or not, in assigning aspects of common Irish culture with a race label you are contributing to a sort of racist cultural imperialism that has no place in the modern world. Now that IS aggression, if you care to think about it for a moment (no, I don't really expect you to).
If this is incorrect, disprove it. If not, get on with what makes you happy and stop whining.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 5th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
ps. For your own peace of mind: if you really don't want to contribute to a part political debate (as this now is) then don't. I consider it to be very much a political/ religious/cultural question, so you might be continuing a discussion on it with the wrong man.
I would also appreciate if you didn't inflict your own selfish value judgment on what I find interesting (i.e. culture, identity and politics). I don't do it to you or anyone else.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 5th 2006 by Harry B
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
..... & finally.
Harry, why is it so hard for you to understand that someone can be simply curious about this music & wish to learn more about what it is all about, without them automatically be trying to ‘prove’ anything about it? I am beginning to understand that you are never going to accept that I’m not actually trying to prove anything, but am just curious! There seems to be no middle ground for you Harry - I’m not for you so of course I must automatically be against you!
Perhaps you'd be happier if I just had a one page site with, in large letters at the top, What is Ulster-Scots Music?
You no doubt would be even happier if I just ignored the subject altogether!
However, I'm sure some people here would not be totally surprised to find that someone like myself from Scotland, who grew up listening to Scottish Music, & who has played some Scottish but mostly Irish Traditional Music for over thirty years & who now finds themselves living in Ireland, being just a tiny bit curious about this music which, to them just sounds like Scottish Music, but which is being described as Ulster-Scots music by some neighbours & yet being at the same time described by other people, like yourself Harry, as part of "common Irish culture".
It is all around me up here & I’m sorry but I can’t just ignore it & hope that it goes away, which is I’m sure what you would like.
In your new Thread, which not surprisingly has already received a “Yawn’, you - “invite anyone to offer an argument that there is a separate, identifiable body of "Ulster Scots" music/style”
Surely you can see clearly from the lack of interest on this site to our present discussion, that very few people here are at all interested in this & that perhaps the place you should be asking your questions, if you really do want a strong political debate from someone who is actually part of the Ulster-Scots movement & hopefully someone with first hand knowledge of this music, is actually on an Ulster-Scots website?
I warn you though, if you try that, you might be disappointed, for I have been doing that very thing for many months now & have had very little success to date, but I’m not afraid to ask questions, even although it is clear that people often misinterpret the reasons for my questions & are quick to “inflict their own selfish value judgements” on my motives.
Because they think it, it doesn’t make it so!
# Posted on September 5th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: So whats wrong with a little bit of tasteful percussion?
Dick,
I posted that thread in the hope that it would warrant some substantial, explanative comment on the strands of Irish music you and others refer to as 'Scots Irish', 'Ulster Scots' music or whatever. You are unable to provide such comment (even though you accept the existence of 'the alledged phenonmenon' and attempt to define it on your website), so I'm interested in seeing if anyone else is able to. I can find no such comment or analysis elsewhere.
I have never considered you 'against me', that is your presumption. I simply disagree with your clear acceptance of what I obviously consider a new harmful, racist association for music (i.e. 'Scots Irish' or whatever as some distinct form). This is as much to do with context as content. You are unwilling (and I suspect unable) to comment and reason on the context.
The one thing I have learned from deconstructing the beleifs that I was brought up with is that it is possible to disagree with someone intelligently. I'd rather that than to agree with them stupidly.
If both parties conduct themselves openly and reasonably, making statements, backing them up, not getting offended if the other applies their own logic, reasoning and view to the subject, then things can become clear. You have proved repeatedly that you are unwilling to do this where wider, but intrinsically related, cultural and political realities are concerned. So, why are you doggedly hanging on to this thread if it is so outside of your realm of interest? You don't have to contribute. Are you moderator of the board in the area of cultrual politics?
Re. Said 'Yawn': If I was concerned with impressing every smart arse on the board I'd have a lobotomy, quote Irish Music Magazine heavily, and be done with it.
If I ever come across an Ulster Scots website that doesn't seem to be manned by cuturally biased, brain dead flag wavers I MAY or may not contribute. But then, why go there? Should It be incumberant on me to have to go to a unicorn website to argue that unicorns don't exist?
In the good old days you made claims and then backed them up with evedence. It didn't get embroiled in politcal/cultural, pluralist, pseudo PC silliness, and wishful thinking.
We are all quite wrong, only some of us harmfully so.
Regards,
Harry.
# Posted on September 5th 2006 by Harry B