"As for the competitions, in many cases with the fiddles, classical led the way...judges overlooked vibratos in the dance tunes...players were technically amazing, but ITM on the fiddle seemed to be all about classical training and not about true regional styles anymore. Lovely music, but of a different type."
Well, for good or worse, that's how it seems to be going now; but my question considers a different point of view:
Does anyone here have the experience of being brought up in, and learning ITM on the fiddle, then later on going for classical training and perhaps playing in an orchestra or other classical ensemble, but still keeping up the Irish trad? How did they cope? Was there any feedback from one to the other?
ugh, why would you ever play classical music after being exposed to ITM??? the only reason I ever played classical was cuz I'd never heard fiddle music!! no offn. but never going back!!!!!!!!!
Just rambling and not answering the question (I'll be interested if someone does)...in England young people very often take up ITM fiddle after doing classical at school, and have to alter their approach accordingly. With a twinge of guilt at the thought that such people might not be able to play classical again once they'd got used to playing ITM, I asked a seasoned classical violinist I know whether this was so: she said, happily no, as far as she could tell. So lags like me won't have to drink hemlock for corrupting the youth.
I started with a local ITM group and then when I went to school I joined the local youth orchestra. I am now in the Senior Orchestra, have a Gr.7 Merit under my belt and an offer to join the Ulster Youth Orchestra but have kept the ITM up as well.
However, I am finding that I am enjoying playing Scottish Traditional Music more than ITM on the fiddle. I feel that ITM is played much to fast and that too many trad musicians have lost the real love for the music. Scottish music has such a lovely flow and swing to it.
Classical training does help with fiddle though. It means that you are then able to hold the violin and bow correctly and get the maximum tone and feeling from your instrument. Starting with trad can lead to some sloppy habits being picked up (the main one being 'the-fiddle-pointing-to-floor-with-elbow-on-knee' technique - especcially if one frequents large group sessions or small pubs where 'instrument-room' is cramped!!!
Yes, whether your playing trad or classical music, a good tone is still essential, and that comes from good posture and bow control. Initial classical training gives you that.
I sort of did- when i was younger, say up to about 16 I played a lot of traditional music. When i decided to go to music college to study violin it was very hard to maintain; personally I found I was working so hard on my violin technique i couldn't afford to confuse things while attempting to pass a degree/ form a career, etc, and apart from the odd session, the ITM fell by the wayside.My violin teachers at college seemed to have little interest in my fiddle playing. Funnily enough ITM is actually my prefered medium by far, as it's the one I can express myself in rather than sitting in an orchestra being told what to do, when to do it and how far to shove it...Gradually over the following years I've been getting back into the fiddle playing, but unlike when i was a kid I now discover my idea of how I want to play is very clear, and the classical techniques can get in the way. Recently, after a few eye opening workshops I decided to start having fiddle lessons for the first time. The one thing I would say is that I now have the technique to do more or less what I like, and the experience be able to act on advice. For example, I was aware something wasn't sounding quite right, and my teacher pointed out that vibrato was creeping in. once it's pointed out, the problem can be solved.
There's a guy in the RPO whose also a fantastic trad player, but then he grew up in a large family in Ireland where music was a big part of family life. If that isn't your upbringing, basically it's hard. Classical music is competitive, you have to work hard to get the technique, and it's only a true love for ITM that means you keep persevering. At least these days my classical colleagues are less snobby and think ITM is cool; in the old days there was very much a belif that it was inferior and required no talent. I sometimes wonder if it would be easier to stick with playing the violin and play ITM on another instrument, but then it is my profoundly held belief that nothing is quite as good as a fiddle...
I know a fellow who started with trad, went into classical and became an excellent and prominent baroque player. Went back to trad a few years ago and... uh-uh. Doesn't really have it at all.
Going off on a tangent, while it's true that early classical training makes certain aspects of learning ITM on the fiddle easier, I found there was a lot to unlearn. But the thing that really bothers me about the whole sweet, bright, fat classical tone that everyone seems to regard as the standard now is... well, it's bright and fat and sweet.
Hardly any younger players today get that wailing sound - the sharp, dry, vinegary tone and plaintive intonation of say, Michael Gorman. Probably wouldn't sound too good in a band full of bouzoukis and accordions, I know. But it's a crying shame.
Ultimately, the adjudicators decided to reward technically brilliant players that lacked the lonesome touch The players were more suited to the National Concert Hall and not the pure drop buzz of a session. Regional styles will be lost forever when the older players ascend to the Pearly Gates.... but few had the means for classical training........I guess the whole Euro deal is making the Irish change more than just their currency and roads!
How can Comhaltas argue for 'trad' when they are modifying and then exporting classically trained homogenous music and musicians..furthermore, the endangered regional styles were the entire reason that they started the Fleadh Cheoil in the first place, right? True trad musicians will probably have to start an alternate vehicle to preserve the historic regional styles of music.....maybe the Fleadh Cheoil will lose its appeal to many in the future.....
During the fiddle competitions, all I could picture was that these players were technically brill, but lacked soul. They sounded like the entire strings section of an amazing orchestra...btw, they all looked tighter than a drum when they played...none looked like they actually enjoyed their tunes..sad...
That being said, classical training can improve the areas that need improving if one finds that rare jewel of a teacher who appreciates what you are trying to achieve. Hopefully we will find such a teacher......and an adjudicator that appreciates tradition : )
Good luck all!
Sadly, "music is fun" and "music competitions" are now concepts that have precious little in common - that is, if they ever did. And substitute "step dancing" for "music - same difference.
I agree with hotfiddler...why would you want to?!?! I started on classical violin and still play it in school...but I mean...why?!?! It took me about two years to stop vibratoing dance tunes...I think some of the good things are being able to read music and having good posture, left hand shape, and whatnot...but then I was also waaaaaay too dependent on sheet music and I'm still weaning myself...I just don't get it there are so many rules and everything you do and every emotion you do play with is dictated for you!
I still love classical music and there are songs I love to play...but it doesn't compare with fiddle!
What started me on this thread was wondering how people cope with going from fiddle to classical (rare, perhaps, but it probably does happen), whereas we all know the problems classical violinists have when trying to play Irish trad (or any other folk music, or jazz, for that matter) in the appropriate style. Such problems can be, and are, overcome with the will to do it and hard work (if that's the right word!) for a year or more.
My background is as a classically trained cellist from way back in my teens, and still play regularly in a couple of orchestras, but have never touched the violin until nearly 6 years ago. So when I came to Irish trad fiddle then I had nothing in the way of classical violin baggage to unlearn, but I did know something about finger and bow control, which must have helped. Learning to play by ear was by far the biggest problem!
I have no plans (as the politicos say), or particular desire, to play classical violin in an orchestra any time soon; but if - and it's a rather big "if" - I were to change my mind I would only want to play baroque, in which much of Irish traditional fiddle music has roots, and then I would make it my business to first have lessons to bring me up to the standard required.
Learning classical after ITM?
Learning classical after ITM?
I've noticed a comment by Eirfiddle in the "Letterkenny- How was it for you" thread (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11016/comments#comment226897):
"As for the competitions, in many cases with the fiddles, classical led the way...judges overlooked vibratos in the dance tunes...players were technically amazing, but ITM on the fiddle seemed to be all about classical training and not about true regional styles anymore. Lovely music, but of a different type."
Well, for good or worse, that's how it seems to be going now; but my question considers a different point of view:
Does anyone here have the experience of being brought up in, and learning ITM on the fiddle, then later on going for classical training and perhaps playing in an orchestra or other classical ensemble, but still keeping up the Irish trad? How did they cope? Was there any feedback from one to the other?
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
ugh, why would you ever play classical music after being exposed to ITM??? the only reason I ever played classical was cuz I'd never heard fiddle music!! no offn. but never going back!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by BE
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
Just rambling and not answering the question (I'll be interested if someone does)...in England young people very often take up ITM fiddle after doing classical at school, and have to alter their approach accordingly. With a twinge of guilt at the thought that such people might not be able to play classical again once they'd got used to playing ITM, I asked a seasoned classical violinist I know whether this was so: she said, happily no, as far as she could tell. So lags like me won't have to drink hemlock for corrupting the youth.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
I started with a local ITM group and then when I went to school I joined the local youth orchestra. I am now in the Senior Orchestra, have a Gr.7 Merit under my belt and an offer to join the Ulster Youth Orchestra but have kept the ITM up as well.
However, I am finding that I am enjoying playing Scottish Traditional Music more than ITM on the fiddle. I feel that ITM is played much to fast and that too many trad musicians have lost the real love for the music. Scottish music has such a lovely flow and swing to it.
Classical training does help with fiddle though. It means that you are then able to hold the violin and bow correctly and get the maximum tone and feeling from your instrument. Starting with trad can lead to some sloppy habits being picked up (the main one being 'the-fiddle-pointing-to-floor-with-elbow-on-knee' technique - especcially if one frequents large group sessions or small pubs where 'instrument-room' is cramped!!!
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Harping McCartan
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
Yes, whether your playing trad or classical music, a good tone is still essential, and that comes from good posture and bow control. Initial classical training gives you that.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by barrysmith90
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
I sort of did- when i was younger, say up to about 16 I played a lot of traditional music. When i decided to go to music college to study violin it was very hard to maintain; personally I found I was working so hard on my violin technique i couldn't afford to confuse things while attempting to pass a degree/ form a career, etc, and apart from the odd session, the ITM fell by the wayside.My violin teachers at college seemed to have little interest in my fiddle playing. Funnily enough ITM is actually my prefered medium by far, as it's the one I can express myself in rather than sitting in an orchestra being told what to do, when to do it and how far to shove it...Gradually over the following years I've been getting back into the fiddle playing, but unlike when i was a kid I now discover my idea of how I want to play is very clear, and the classical techniques can get in the way. Recently, after a few eye opening workshops I decided to start having fiddle lessons for the first time. The one thing I would say is that I now have the technique to do more or less what I like, and the experience be able to act on advice. For example, I was aware something wasn't sounding quite right, and my teacher pointed out that vibrato was creeping in. once it's pointed out, the problem can be solved.
There's a guy in the RPO whose also a fantastic trad player, but then he grew up in a large family in Ireland where music was a big part of family life. If that isn't your upbringing, basically it's hard. Classical music is competitive, you have to work hard to get the technique, and it's only a true love for ITM that means you keep persevering. At least these days my classical colleagues are less snobby and think ITM is cool; in the old days there was very much a belif that it was inferior and required no talent. I sometimes wonder if it would be easier to stick with playing the violin and play ITM on another instrument, but then it is my profoundly held belief that nothing is quite as good as a fiddle...
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by oh fiddle it
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
I know a fellow who started with trad, went into classical and became an excellent and prominent baroque player. Went back to trad a few years ago and... uh-uh. Doesn't really have it at all.
Going off on a tangent, while it's true that early classical training makes certain aspects of learning ITM on the fiddle easier, I found there was a lot to unlearn. But the thing that really bothers me about the whole sweet, bright, fat classical tone that everyone seems to regard as the standard now is... well, it's bright and fat and sweet.
Hardly any younger players today get that wailing sound - the sharp, dry, vinegary tone and plaintive intonation of say, Michael Gorman. Probably wouldn't sound too good in a band full of bouzoukis and accordions, I know. But it's a crying shame.
# Posted on August 30th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
Glad that my comments started a discussion..
Ultimately, the adjudicators decided to reward technically brilliant players that lacked the lonesome touch The players were more suited to the National Concert Hall and not the pure drop buzz of a session. Regional styles will be lost forever when the older players ascend to the Pearly Gates.... but few had the means for classical training........I guess the whole Euro deal is making the Irish change more than just their currency and roads!
How can Comhaltas argue for 'trad' when they are modifying and then exporting classically trained homogenous music and musicians..furthermore, the endangered regional styles were the entire reason that they started the Fleadh Cheoil in the first place, right? True trad musicians will probably have to start an alternate vehicle to preserve the historic regional styles of music.....maybe the Fleadh Cheoil will lose its appeal to many in the future.....
During the fiddle competitions, all I could picture was that these players were technically brill, but lacked soul. They sounded like the entire strings section of an amazing orchestra...btw, they all looked tighter than a drum when they played...none looked like they actually enjoyed their tunes..sad...
That being said, classical training can improve the areas that need improving if one finds that rare jewel of a teacher who appreciates what you are trying to achieve. Hopefully we will find such a teacher......and an adjudicator that appreciates tradition : )
Good luck all!
# Posted on August 30th 2006 by eirfiddle
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
Sadly, "music is fun" and "music competitions" are now concepts that have precious little in common - that is, if they ever did. And substitute "step dancing" for "music - same difference.
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
I agree with hotfiddler...why would you want to?!?! I started on classical violin and still play it in school...but I mean...why?!?! It took me about two years to stop vibratoing dance tunes...I think some of the good things are being able to read music and having good posture, left hand shape, and whatnot...but then I was also waaaaaay too dependent on sheet music and I'm still weaning myself...I just don't get it there are so many rules and everything you do and every emotion you do play with is dictated for you!
I still love classical music and there are songs I love to play...but it doesn't compare with fiddle!
# Posted on September 1st 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Learning classical after ITM?
What started me on this thread was wondering how people cope with going from fiddle to classical (rare, perhaps, but it probably does happen), whereas we all know the problems classical violinists have when trying to play Irish trad (or any other folk music, or jazz, for that matter) in the appropriate style. Such problems can be, and are, overcome with the will to do it and hard work (if that's the right word!) for a year or more.
My background is as a classically trained cellist from way back in my teens, and still play regularly in a couple of orchestras, but have never touched the violin until nearly 6 years ago. So when I came to Irish trad fiddle then I had nothing in the way of classical violin baggage to unlearn, but I did know something about finger and bow control, which must have helped. Learning to play by ear was by far the biggest problem!
I have no plans (as the politicos say), or particular desire, to play classical violin in an orchestra any time soon; but if - and it's a rather big "if" - I were to change my mind I would only want to play baroque, in which much of Irish traditional fiddle music has roots, and then I would make it my business to first have lessons to bring me up to the standard required.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by lazyhound