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"Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
"Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Among that spirited thread, I feel that there are some points that are deserving of their own thread. (...and they address a pet peeve of mine):
Llig Leahcim
"...a gripe at laziness that is often hidden behind the phrase "oral tradition". It is people who are quite happy to fill in the gaps of their inability to learn a tune properly and end up calling it "their version". I can never understand why people can't hold their hands up and say, even years later, "Oh that's how it goes, crickey, I've been playing it wrong all these years"."
Phantom Button also mentions the "time and discipline needed" to play this music, and, "One of the most valuable aspects of this music is that it can't be learned over night."
Now, I am barely more than a beginner at this music, and my job, family, and life choices make it unlikely that I will achieve my goals with my music any time soon.
However, a few years ago, someone on this site (it may even have been MG or PB) wrote: It doesn't matter so much *which* version you learn, as long as you learn *a* version (paraphrased).
I, too, don't like when someone simply learns some key phrases of a tune, fills in the gaps with notes that "fit", and says they "know" a tune.
Such people say, "Well, there really is no *right* way to play *any* tune," but I feel that we should all take the "time" or have the "discipline" (PB) to truly "Learn it Right" --- where "Learn it Right" does not mean "learn my way of playing it" or "learn Llig Leahcim's way of playing it", or "learn Mary Bergin's way of playing it", etc... "Learn it Right" simply means "learn *a* way of playing it" -- whether from a teacher, a recording, a workshop, or even dots or ABCs, if necessary. Then you can learn another setting, then another, etc..., or add your own variations, ornaments, or whatever you want to do with it, afterwards. But please don't approximate it, make it up, or improvise it. "Learn" it.
I may not be articulating my thoughts very well, so I'll try to clarify with an example. One of the few tunes that I know is a wonderful reel called "Ah, Surely!" To many of you this may be an easy tune, but to me the ending phrase was very difficult to master. Now, I could have just "learned" the bulk of the tune, then substituted some easier phrase that "fit" in the end, and called it my "version". But... to me that would not be "learning" the tune. In fact, I felt that the turn-around phrase of this tune was such a fundamental, defining phrase of the tune that I spent hours -- yes, hours -- listening to, lilting, and playing that last handful of notes over and over and over again.
First, I did this with a Mary Bergin setting, then one from Catherine McEvoy. Then I started doing some of my own ornaments and variations. Only then did I feel that I truly earned the right to call my version "my version". While my ability (lack thereof) may not allow me to actually *play* that sequence correctly every time, at least I feel that I *know* the tune.
Llig Leahcim and Phantom Button, I hope you don't mind me plagiarizing your comments -- but they were buried quite deeply in that other thread, and I think that they were important enough to bring up to the surface.
So for now, until the day when I have the "discipline" to invest the "time" into "learning" more tunes...
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Ok I worded that badly - not really 'a single "right" version' that everyone should be aiming for, but rather someone else's idea of what is right and what is wrong.
I mean to completely change a tune to the extent that it is unrecognisable seems pretty strange but surely the oral tradition is built on different interpretations by different musicians. How did we get the different "settings" that you mention in the first place?? I think it was in the Ciaran Carson book last night's fun where he discusses how no two settings of a tune can ever be the same because they are born out of different situations, personal histories, interpretations etc.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I agree with browndog's model as an ideal, with one very, very important proviso: that those amateurs who simply want to play and enjoy the music without striving for that ideal be admired and respected for doing so, rather than being treated with contempt (not that browndog did any such thing, but others have).
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Are we learning through the "oral" tradition, or the "aural" tradition? I always thought that storytellers, who spoke, were passing the oral tradition, while musicians who learned by ear, were perpetuating the aural tradition. They sound the same, but the words have different definitions, and I think some of us are spelling it one way, but meaning another.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
My take on it is that one needs to internalize the traditional idiom or a subset of it, before one stops "butchering" tunes and begins "varying" them. In a nutshell, a variation "works" within the conventions of traditional music, a hack job does not.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I think you REALLY know a tune when you can play this version and that version and also "do that thing that different way in the B part, ya know". When you have learned it "right" a variety of ways then you truely have it.
Then you will find "your" version.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I think what browndog describes is a variant of the dreaded art of "noodling." If you want to be part of the group experience in ITM, some amount of rigor is required--an ITM session is not a jam session--you need to learn the tunes. And while many varieties of ornamention and even minor variation can be accomodated, some adaptation to the norms of the particular session are required as well, to develop a harmonious sound. Otherwise, cacaphony results--as someone once said--"all sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
The point is, you're constantly "re-learning" the tunes you've already learned. You might come across unusual and attractive versions of a well-known tune in recordings, or you might hit upon a nice variation while you are playing the tune just by yourself. How boring it is to keep playing tunes in the same way!
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I know this question probably sounds silly but I'm just curious - what is the 'right' version of a tune? I'm wondering because as a beginner what baffled me pretty much from the start was that there seem to be so many internal variations of the same tune out there, so how does one know which is some kind of different 'version' and which is the original? Is there such a thing as a globally agreed 'dictionary' of the barebones of tunes?
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Vanessa--I have read that Chief O'Neill, while compiling his huge book of Irish tunes, once asked several notable Chicago session players to attend a meeting and correct/edit some of the transcriptions his violinist partner had made. Apparently after hours of lively discussion, no consensus had been reached on any tune, and O'Neill abandoned the idea of finding the "definitive" version of any tune by committee.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
p.s. I suppose that a recording of a tune played by the composer would have to be the "definitive version" of that tune. Otherwise, opinions will always vary.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
By their responses, I feel that wormdiet understands my point, as do GaryAMartin, Lizzy, flutedoog, slainte, and even Vanessa (I'm not referring to the existance of any single, definitive, "right" version of any tune, Vanessa).
AlBrown misses my point, but just by a little bit -- I'm not bashing "noodling", but rather advocating "doing the work", "paying the dues", "logging the miles", and making a commitment to "learning" a tune, rather than "winging it".
There is a subtle, semantic nuance that differentiates my point from saying that there is a single, definitive, "right" version of the tune.
Also, this is different from "noodling", because it is not just "winging it" at a session, but rather "winging it" to "learn" a tune, which, using my original example of "Ah, Surely!", would have caused me to "dumb-down" the otherwise complicated melody, took something away from the tune, and left me with a much less satisfying result.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Composers have been known to change their minds. And many of them are well aware that their performance skills are not always the best at expressing the nuances of their own creations.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Thanks for the answers and I was fascinated by mickrays Chief O'Neill story. When I first posted my question I wasn't sure if Comhaltas for example had tried to compile something like that ie some kind of bare-bones tune-guide for musicians around the world. A bit in the style of O'Carolan's tune compilations where the bare-bones of his tunes seem to be agreed fixtures for example the tunes Bridget Cruise Third Air, Eleanor Plunkett, his planxties etc looks the same everywhere I looked but of course when they are being played I have heard different versions of them with internal variants but there seems to be a more definite template.
So having learnt there is no universally agreed global 'tunebook' I'm wondering how does a musician know that another musician has changed part of a tune to make it less cumbersome and not that it is simply another version of the same tune. Do you ask the musician in question or does something indicate that the person is just 'winging' it?
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
(From reading all the threads very quickly)
I could be wrong but I think there's some misunderstanding on what is being called "The Tune" and Variations.
“The Tune” isn’t necessarily just 8 notes in the bar.
It can be less than that it but it can also be more, and if there is a roll it doesn't mean that it's ornamentation.
It is possible to reconcile the two opions that there is a right version AND that you would never play the tune the same way twice.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Comhaltas has indeed tried to do something like that: http://www.comhaltas.com/seisiun/foinn.htm
There's an ABC version you can get somewhere on the web (not from Comhaltas, as they're selling hard copies), maybe listed in the links section.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
vanessa - if a player is just winging it and doing so badly, you can sometimes tell by other players' facial expressions, body language and sotto voce comments!
About tune books that attempt to give standard versions: David Mallinson has published a book of, I think, a hundred essential Irish session tunes - that may be its title but I don't know. It's probably worth getting. He also published a book of a hundred (Irish) polkas. I think he's a conscientious bloke and assume his judgment can be trusted. If you can't find these in Ireland, look up "The Music Room" on the web: it's a big folk music shop in Yorkshire, UK.
Also worth considering are one or more CD's made by the piano-accordionist Karen Tweed, devoted to standard session tunes. She has a lovely style - I've heard her - and assume that on such an album she would give a lively performance while respecting the basics of each tune.
Back in the '70's a collector called Brendan Breathnach began to publish volumes of tunes he had collected in Ireland. Each tune published was done so in the form of one version only, taken down as accurately as possible (presumably, tape-recorded) from one player only: in the case of a common tune, Breathnach favoured one player's version over that of others' - he did not want to publish a "standard version". Well, some of us thought, Here comes the new O'Neill's...
But large amounts of it were written in Irish, including notes and tune names, so it wasn't user-friendly to those who don't know the language.
Two volumes came out then; I don't know if any more emerged. I wonder how much it has ever been used - might open a discussion on it!
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
BegF has it. He knows that you have to reconcile the fact that getting it right actually means playing it different each time - as well not filling in gaps because you didn't learn it right to start with.
This is part of the definition of the music. and also why you can't "get it right" from a book, no matter how good the book.
If you find this paradox hard to square, just keep playing and listening hard. It'll come
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I'm referring to style more than version in my comments on the other thread. I have a personal experience that might explain.
When first received a concertina it came in the form of a present under the tree. I picked it up and began finding the Irish melodies I had recently discovered. I continued along these lines for a few years, and people told me what I was doing sounded great. When I moved to SF and met Noel Hill I realized I had been going about it all wrong, and I basically threw out what I was doing and started all over again. My playing finally began to take on the flavor I was striving for. My attempt to invent my own technique had failed. Now I devote my time to learning the Irish melodies and playing them in the Irish style. Had I grown up in the tradition I would have recognized that the music I was making wasn't "right" from the start. Were it not for my efforts to expose myself to actual players from Ireland and learn what they were doing, I would still just be playing Irish melodies with weird sounding ornaments.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Noel Hill is very good Phantom. I'm sorry if he pointed out that you were rubbish, and I hope you have improved, but he's still very good.
There are no standard, international, business class settings of Irish tunes. It's up to the individual player to interpret them. People learn from hearing other musicians play, from recordings or from written notes.
Irish music shares with jazz a certain improvisatory quality. The composer - virtuallly all tunes in the modern Irish canon are compositions by indiviuals - writes the tune, and the musician plays about with it as he can or will. The three main ways of varying a tune are by:
Ornamentaion
Rhythmic variation, and
Melodic variation
Newer players tend to get hung up on the first, and ignore the latter two ways of varying a tune.
Modern transcriptions (Post O'Neill) are good ways of finding the bare bones of a tune.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Noel didn't say it was rubbish, his remark about my playing was that it sounded like a piano keyboard instead of a concertina. I was the one that thought my playing was rubbish because it lacked the style that defines ITM. The problem was that I made up how to play ornaments and they sounded odd. I've heard other players since on other instruments who made up their own ornaments and style instead of learning it properly and their music sounds off as well. This is my point -- don't reinvent ITM just because you're in too big of a hurry or too lazy to learn it right.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Those of us who've picked up or acquired inauthentic ITM playing habits can always console ourselves by having a listen to the liberties the doyens of ITM have taken with Scottish tunes and styles, for instance...!
But I do accept the gist of the thread, that ITM learners should listen to good players and try to learn good tune versions and techniques from them.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
So here's the question I have for Jack: would you have been better off not touching the concertina for a few years until you had the opportunity to learn it correctly, or did you pick up a bunch of useful skills along the way that gave you a head start once you saw the light?
I bought a concertina in June. Three weeks later, I took the beginners class with Edel Fox at the Catskill Irish Arts Week. Of course I spent those three weeks learning where the notes were, getting it all wrong in terms of ornaments and choosing which row to get some of the notes from. But when the class started, I knew my way around the instrument, it felt comfortable in my hands, and I had a couple of dozen tunes that I could sort of make sound recognizable. By the end of the week with Edel, I knew what I had been doing wrong and what to do instead. In the six weeks since then, I've pretty much internalized those things. I'll bet it would have taken longer if I didn't have that three week head start.
I'm sure I'll do other things wrong between now and the next time I have access to expert advice, but the more I play and learn along the way, the more ready I'll be to understand and implement that advice.
Jack's advice about not reinventing Irish music is fine if it's no more than that - advice - which a player may accept or reject. My problem is with the attitude I sense in some people who take that stance: that those who choose not to "learn it right" shouldn't be playing Irish music at all. That they are somehow threatening the tradition by their attempts to play.
Folk music consists of all sorts of people playing the music they like, in the way they like, at their own skill level, for their own enjoyment, and maybe that of their family or a few friends. The aspects of it that catch on, survive, and flourish over several generations form the tradition. How much of the tradition an individual musician embraces is a personal decision, despite what anyone else thinks they "should" do. If people like what an individual musician does, maybe it'll catch on and become part of the tradition, and maybe not. If they don't, then there's no harm done and the musician has gotten personal enjoyment and satisfaction from playing. The funny thing is that nobody has any control over this, despite what people think. You can try to get people to like what you think the tradition should be, but it ultimately comes down to their tastes, which may or may not be yours.
The situation is totally different if someone plays music professionally. Then their live or recorded performances are essentially "employment" of the performer by the listener who spends time and (often) money for the experience. As the "employer", the listener gets to make up a "job description" and "evaluate" the performer based on that description. Hence the practice of music criticism and reviews. But it is completely inappropriate to impose one's personal "job description" on an amateur who did not "apply".
The tricky part, of course, is when people whose approach to the music differs from yours want to play with you. But then we get into the whole session ettiquette thing again.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Absolutely not Gary. And that's the point of the argument. This isn't advice that you can take or leave. Those people who choose (usually through laziness) not to learn it right do indeed threaten the music. And it makes no difference at all whether you make a living out of butchering it. You see it's about the insidious flattening out of the subtleties of it. As I mentioned before, some one comes along and has trouble getting a certain phrase in a tune and substitutes a phrase from another tune they already know and we all end up with tunes that sound the same. And the same with the articulation: somebody makes a sound that they think sounds a bit like like a roll and just says, what the heck, it's close enough. Well matey, if it's it's merely close enough, it ain't good enough. This ain't free jazz we're on about here.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no luddite. I'm not against experiment or evolving or personal interpretations. " If people like what an individual musician does, maybe it'll catch on and become part of the tradition, and maybe not. If they don't, then there's no harm done and the musician has gotten personal enjoyment and satisfaction from playing." Absolutely fine. But you MUST come at it from having learned it properly in the first place
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I had a week with Noel Hill and took his cross-fingering method under my belt. With some of his many examples to work at, 5 months later, my concertina style has totally changed and new tunes take on an NH style.
Nevertheless, as I came from an English tradition, there will still be some Geoff-isms in my style - it is not a slavish copy of his.
Thats what its all about - when new tunes are naturally played in the same style as ones you have played for years - your own.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I just had a listen to the only recording I've heard of Joe Bane, the whistle player from Glendree, East Clare. It's on Maiden Voyage, recorded in Pepper's in Feakle in the early 90s. He "makes a sound that they think sounds a bit like like a roll and just says, what the heck, it's close enough." It's pretty obvious that his technical skills were pretty rudimentary and he was simplifying things so he could play the tune. But the musicality in his playing was extraordinary. There's great rhythm and lift, too. I'd love to hear more.
If you listen to Open Hearth, the wonderful album by Andrew and Mary MacNamara of versions (learned from their father's recordings) of tunes they heard as children in the 70s from Joe Bane and Bill O'Malley, and look at Geoff Wright's fairly accurate transcriptions, you see that Joe and Bill simplified many of the tunes they played.
For example, in Sean Ryan's "Reel of Rio", the phrase eg (3gfg is played eggg throughout. Similar things are done with every triplet and every roll in the tune. Also, the version in The Hidden Ireland has the phrase agea|gede occuring three times. On "Open Hearth" it's simplified to ageg|gede. It's certainly easier on the whistle to alternate the g and e than it is to go back up to the a (only involving one hand rather than both). The first half of the B part is simplified quite radically, from b|dg (3gfg ag (gfg|bg (gfg edBd|eB (3B^AB G=ABd|gedB AGEG| to eggg aggg|aggg edBA|Bddd eddd|eedB AGEG|.
(If you're following along at home, note that the CD is mis-labeled. Reel of Rio is the second tune in cut 6, not the first. And the MacNamara's play it in F, but I'm describing it in G.)
Another example is in both Harvest Home and Off to California, where all of the triplets are gone.
Also, Morning Star has been stripped of all the twisty bits and all of the c#s. I just listened side by side to the Open Hearth version and versions by Elizabeth Crotty (with Paddy Canny), Martin Hayes, the Bothy Band, Tommy Peoples, Patrick Kelly, and Denis Murphy & Julia Clifford. All the long scale runs are gone, (sometimes replaced by one note played repeatedly!) and there are never more than eight notes in a bar. To compensate, they play it with lots of swing.
Did they learn these tunes properly in the first place before changing them? Who knows? Who will ever know? Who cares? "A short conversation soon led to Joe slipping the whistle from his breast pocket to calmly play a tune that had just come to him. More often than not, he was unable to say where he first heard the tune, who he heard it from or 'what the hell kind of a tune it was at all.'"
The subtleties in the melody, rhythm, and ornamentation in versions by more technically skilled players are gone, but replaced by other rhythmic subtleties and an airiness that gives you a fresh look at the tune.
I can see only two ways in which someone butchering a tune can threaten "the music". One is if it's a listener's first exposure to the music and it turns them off before they discover the real thing. The other is if a butchered version catches on and becomes dominant, marginalizing better versions. But then that's what I mean about nobody being able to control what becomes the tradition. As long as lots of people are "playing it right", I think the music is safe from those who aren't.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Or maybe these peoples' versions of tunes were learnt from much older versions before they got there rolls etc? This is a very important difference. And other people who learned this music properly, inovators, then put the rolls in.
This in no way excuses lazyness and gap filling.
And your scenario 1 is back to front. Unfortunatly, what happens time and time again is people get turned on by the sloppy copies and end up copying that. Dave Swarbrick is a good example. The Corrs is a more recent one.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I like Gary's inclusive description of folk music. Playing the music you love in a way you enjoy within the bounds of your current abilities is not necessarily laziness. Folk music is for folks (I think Louie Armstrong said that), and not all folks are virtuosos. I hate the idea that playing music should be limited to an elite group with the time and natural abilities to be able to do all the fancy ornamentation, play in odd keys at the drop of a hat, and play at ferocious speeds. I don't think that every session should stoop to the level of the least able player present, but slowing down once in a while to give everyone a chance to participate is a nice habit to get into. I don't think that "doing your own thing" is a threat to the tradition, as long as those doing their own thing don't claim to represent the tradition
That being said, there is also value in browndog's original assertion that some amount of hard work should be applied to fully learn a tune, and Michael's later assertions along the same lines. When you venture out into public, you no longer set your own standards, the standards of the group begin to apply. And every musician should strive to improve, or stagnation will result, to the detriment of the music, and your enjoyment of that music.
In a past discussion, I have stated that I played "Irish-American" music rather than ITM. Because of the many influences that enter the mix here in New England, I would be the first to admit that what I play is not the "pure drop," either in style, or in tune or song selections. And while I strive to master the ornamentation and style of the purer forms of Irish music, I am also content that having a local "accent" is not a bad thing.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Hi Gary, to answer your question... I suppose my pre-Noel Hill experience on the concertina wasn't a total waste, and I did develop a familiarity with the instrument's quirkiness in those first few years. But I also spent too much time spinning my wheels. It has taken me a lot longer to get the gist of the Paddy Murphy/Noel Hill style of concertina than it would have had I started with Noel. Also, I wish I had shown the whole phantom button thing a lot earlier. But that's all water under the bridge at this stage.
Secondly, I never suggested that ITM was under any threat from people who weren't interested in taking the time to learn it right. The only thing that's threatened is the person's own ability to play the music.
People use this website for a variety of reasons and it’s a great resource for people doing research on tunes and meeting players from around the world in cyberspace to share their experiences. I might be wrong, but I think people also come to this website for information on how to improve their playing. That's the premise I'm working with anyway.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I just listened again to the Joe Bane cut and I'm noticing ornaments that I didn't hear the first time, including some rolls. The tune is Boil the Kettle Early and he learned it from Paddy Canny, who uses lots of ornamentation generally, though I don't have a recording of him playing this tune. Pat O'Connor's recording has quite a bit more ornamentation, and some melody notes that Bane leaves out. O'Connor lives just a few miles from Canny, who is a major influence on his playing, and surely must have known Bane.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I also "hate the idea that playing music should be limited to an elite group with the time and natural abilities to be able to do all the fancy ornamentation, play in odd keys at the drop of a hat, and play at ferocious speeds". But we are not talking about that here. Learning it right is technically no harder than learning it wrong. Rolls aren't difficult, getting the notes in the right order is not difficult. And Irish music doesn't play in daft, difficult keys, G, D and relative modes are really all you need. And as for playing ferociously fast? There are few that would count that as any where near an essential.
I've often said, and it's always worth repeating, Diddley music is not difficult. And that's is one of it's beauties. The best of it is all about economy of everything, to let its simple nature speak, for it to be uncluttered. But again, you just have to learn it right.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Lot of good points here. When I'm playing, I simply try & remember what a wise man once said, upon listening to a group of players who were playing very fast, over ornamented, ITM - "Too many notes, not enough Music"
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Excelent tune was had last night. Flute player in (no need to name him, folks in edinburgh will know) who has this fine habit of going "do you know this tune" and playing a few phrases of a well known standard. Every body goes "yeah it's a cracker, on you go". But then he goes "well here's a different version of it" and proceeds to play the most tremendous setting you've ever heard. Everybody listens really hard and most have it in no time. They are almost never difficult and if you don't quite have it, he'll show you it phrase by phrase. Fantastic
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I know of elitist sessions stick to one version and they proclaim its the right one , they are called closed sessions and they are also known as cover bands.
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
bb - Wait until the BB (Bodhran Brotherhood) finds out that melody players are encroaching on their territory! They have, how shall we say, a close relationship with the major players in the pharmaceutical industry.
"Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
"Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Among that spirited thread, I feel that there are some points that are deserving of their own thread. (...and they address a pet peeve of mine):
Llig Leahcim
"...a gripe at laziness that is often hidden behind the phrase "oral tradition". It is people who are quite happy to fill in the gaps of their inability to learn a tune properly and end up calling it "their version". I can never understand why people can't hold their hands up and say, even years later, "Oh that's how it goes, crickey, I've been playing it wrong all these years"."
Phantom Button also mentions the "time and discipline needed" to play this music, and, "One of the most valuable aspects of this music is that it can't be learned over night."
Now, I am barely more than a beginner at this music, and my job, family, and life choices make it unlikely that I will achieve my goals with my music any time soon.
However, a few years ago, someone on this site (it may even have been MG or PB) wrote: It doesn't matter so much *which* version you learn, as long as you learn *a* version (paraphrased).
I, too, don't like when someone simply learns some key phrases of a tune, fills in the gaps with notes that "fit", and says they "know" a tune.
Such people say, "Well, there really is no *right* way to play *any* tune," but I feel that we should all take the "time" or have the "discipline" (PB) to truly "Learn it Right" --- where "Learn it Right" does not mean "learn my way of playing it" or "learn Llig Leahcim's way of playing it", or "learn Mary Bergin's way of playing it", etc... "Learn it Right" simply means "learn *a* way of playing it" -- whether from a teacher, a recording, a workshop, or even dots or ABCs, if necessary. Then you can learn another setting, then another, etc..., or add your own variations, ornaments, or whatever you want to do with it, afterwards. But please don't approximate it, make it up, or improvise it. "Learn" it.
I may not be articulating my thoughts very well, so I'll try to clarify with an example. One of the few tunes that I know is a wonderful reel called "Ah, Surely!" To many of you this may be an easy tune, but to me the ending phrase was very difficult to master. Now, I could have just "learned" the bulk of the tune, then substituted some easier phrase that "fit" in the end, and called it my "version". But... to me that would not be "learning" the tune. In fact, I felt that the turn-around phrase of this tune was such a fundamental, defining phrase of the tune that I spent hours -- yes, hours -- listening to, lilting, and playing that last handful of notes over and over and over again.
First, I did this with a Mary Bergin setting, then one from Catherine McEvoy. Then I started doing some of my own ornaments and variations. Only then did I feel that I truly earned the right to call my version "my version". While my ability (lack thereof) may not allow me to actually *play* that sequence correctly every time, at least I feel that I *know* the tune.
Llig Leahcim and Phantom Button, I hope you don't mind me plagiarizing your comments -- but they were buried quite deeply in that other thread, and I think that they were important enough to bring up to the surface.
So for now, until the day when I have the "discipline" to invest the "time" into "learning" more tunes...
Cheers!
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by browndog
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Far from buried deeply in that thread, they are the essence of that thread.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
How can there possibly be a single "right" version of a tune when the point of playing music, as I see it, is personal expression ...?
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by Lizzy
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Ok I worded that badly - not really 'a single "right" version' that everyone should be aiming for, but rather someone else's idea of what is right and what is wrong.
I mean to completely change a tune to the extent that it is unrecognisable seems pretty strange but surely the oral tradition is built on different interpretations by different musicians. How did we get the different "settings" that you mention in the first place?? I think it was in the Ciaran Carson book last night's fun where he discusses how no two settings of a tune can ever be the same because they are born out of different situations, personal histories, interpretations etc.
Just thought I'd stir up a bit of debate...
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by Lizzy
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I agree with browndog's model as an ideal, with one very, very important proviso: that those amateurs who simply want to play and enjoy the music without striving for that ideal be admired and respected for doing so, rather than being treated with contempt (not that browndog did any such thing, but others have).
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Are we learning through the "oral" tradition, or the "aural" tradition? I always thought that storytellers, who spoke, were passing the oral tradition, while musicians who learned by ear, were perpetuating the aural tradition. They sound the same, but the words have different definitions, and I think some of us are spelling it one way, but meaning another.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
excellent point Al on oral and aural. I've never really thought of that before
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
My take on it is that one needs to internalize the traditional idiom or a subset of it, before one stops "butchering" tunes and begins "varying" them. In a nutshell, a variation "works" within the conventions of traditional music, a hack job does not.
Mind, most of this is fairly subjective.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by wormdiet
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I think you REALLY know a tune when you can play this version and that version and also "do that thing that different way in the B part, ya know". When you have learned it "right" a variety of ways then you truely have it.
Then you will find "your" version.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by flutedoog
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I think what browndog describes is a variant of the dreaded art of "noodling." If you want to be part of the group experience in ITM, some amount of rigor is required--an ITM session is not a jam session--you need to learn the tunes. And while many varieties of ornamention and even minor variation can be accomodated, some adaptation to the norms of the particular session are required as well, to develop a harmonious sound. Otherwise, cacaphony results--as someone once said--"all sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
The point is, you're constantly "re-learning" the tunes you've already learned. You might come across unusual and attractive versions of a well-known tune in recordings, or you might hit upon a nice variation while you are playing the tune just by yourself. How boring it is to keep playing tunes in the same way!
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by slainte
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I know this question probably sounds silly but I'm just curious - what is the 'right' version of a tune? I'm wondering because as a beginner what baffled me pretty much from the start was that there seem to be so many internal variations of the same tune out there, so how does one know which is some kind of different 'version' and which is the original? Is there such a thing as a globally agreed 'dictionary' of the barebones of tunes?
Thanks for the help with this question
,
Vanessa
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by vanessa
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Vanessa--I have read that Chief O'Neill, while compiling his huge book of Irish tunes, once asked several notable Chicago session players to attend a meeting and correct/edit some of the transcriptions his violinist partner had made. Apparently after hours of lively discussion, no consensus had been reached on any tune, and O'Neill abandoned the idea of finding the "definitive" version of any tune by committee.
All part of a "living tradition" I suppose.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by mickray
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
The "right" version of the tune is the version you play with your friends in the local pub!
It sounds sarcastic, but that answer, for better or for worse, is as close as I can get to a true statement on this issue!
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
p.s. I suppose that a recording of a tune played by the composer would have to be the "definitive version" of that tune. Otherwise, opinions will always vary.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by mickray
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
By their responses, I feel that wormdiet understands my point, as do GaryAMartin, Lizzy, flutedoog, slainte, and even Vanessa (I'm not referring to the existance of any single, definitive, "right" version of any tune, Vanessa).
AlBrown misses my point, but just by a little bit -- I'm not bashing "noodling", but rather advocating "doing the work", "paying the dues", "logging the miles", and making a commitment to "learning" a tune, rather than "winging it".
There is a subtle, semantic nuance that differentiates my point from saying that there is a single, definitive, "right" version of the tune.
Also, this is different from "noodling", because it is not just "winging it" at a session, but rather "winging it" to "learn" a tune, which, using my original example of "Ah, Surely!", would have caused me to "dumb-down" the otherwise complicated melody, took something away from the tune, and left me with a much less satisfying result.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by browndog
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Composers have been known to change their minds. And many of them are well aware that their performance skills are not always the best at expressing the nuances of their own creations.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Thanks for the answers and I was fascinated by mickrays Chief O'Neill story
. When I first posted my question I wasn't sure if Comhaltas for example had tried to compile something like that ie some kind of bare-bones tune-guide for musicians around the world. A bit in the style of O'Carolan's tune compilations where the bare-bones of his tunes seem to be agreed fixtures for example the tunes Bridget Cruise Third Air, Eleanor Plunkett, his planxties etc looks the same everywhere I looked but of course when they are being played I have heard different versions of them with internal variants but there seems to be a more definite template.
So having learnt there is no universally agreed global 'tunebook' I'm wondering how does a musician know that another musician has changed part of a tune to make it less cumbersome and not that it is simply another version of the same tune. Do you ask the musician in question or does something indicate that the person is just 'winging' it?
Thanks again in advance
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by vanessa
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
(From reading all the threads very quickly)
I could be wrong but I think there's some misunderstanding on what is being called "The Tune" and Variations.
“The Tune” isn’t necessarily just 8 notes in the bar.
It can be less than that it but it can also be more, and if there is a roll it doesn't mean that it's ornamentation.
It is possible to reconcile the two opions that there is a right version AND that you would never play the tune the same way twice.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by BegF
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Comhaltas has indeed tried to do something like that:
http://www.comhaltas.com/seisiun/foinn.htm
There's an ABC version you can get somewhere on the web (not from Comhaltas, as they're selling hard copies), maybe listed in the links section.
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
vanessa - if a player is just winging it and doing so badly, you can sometimes tell by other players' facial expressions, body language and sotto voce comments!
About tune books that attempt to give standard versions: David Mallinson has published a book of, I think, a hundred essential Irish session tunes - that may be its title but I don't know. It's probably worth getting. He also published a book of a hundred (Irish) polkas. I think he's a conscientious bloke and assume his judgment can be trusted. If you can't find these in Ireland, look up "The Music Room" on the web: it's a big folk music shop in Yorkshire, UK.
Also worth considering are one or more CD's made by the piano-accordionist Karen Tweed, devoted to standard session tunes. She has a lovely style - I've heard her - and assume that on such an album she would give a lively performance while respecting the basics of each tune.
Back in the '70's a collector called Brendan Breathnach began to publish volumes of tunes he had collected in Ireland. Each tune published was done so in the form of one version only, taken down as accurately as possible (presumably, tape-recorded) from one player only: in the case of a common tune, Breathnach favoured one player's version over that of others' - he did not want to publish a "standard version". Well, some of us thought, Here comes the new O'Neill's...
But large amounts of it were written in Irish, including notes and tune names, so it wasn't user-friendly to those who don't know the language.
Two volumes came out then; I don't know if any more emerged. I wonder how much it has ever been used - might open a discussion on it!
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by nicholas
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
BegF has it. He knows that you have to reconcile the fact that getting it right actually means playing it different each time - as well not filling in gaps because you didn't learn it right to start with.
This is part of the definition of the music. and also why you can't "get it right" from a book, no matter how good the book.
If you find this paradox hard to square, just keep playing and listening hard. It'll come
# Posted on August 28th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I'm referring to style more than version in my comments on the other thread. I have a personal experience that might explain.
When first received a concertina it came in the form of a present under the tree. I picked it up and began finding the Irish melodies I had recently discovered. I continued along these lines for a few years, and people told me what I was doing sounded great. When I moved to SF and met Noel Hill I realized I had been going about it all wrong, and I basically threw out what I was doing and started all over again. My playing finally began to take on the flavor I was striving for. My attempt to invent my own technique had failed. Now I devote my time to learning the Irish melodies and playing them in the Irish style. Had I grown up in the tradition I would have recognized that the music I was making wasn't "right" from the start. Were it not for my efforts to expose myself to actual players from Ireland and learn what they were doing, I would still just be playing Irish melodies with weird sounding ornaments.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Noel Hill is very good Phantom. I'm sorry if he pointed out that you were rubbish, and I hope you have improved, but he's still very good.
There are no standard, international, business class settings of Irish tunes. It's up to the individual player to interpret them. People learn from hearing other musicians play, from recordings or from written notes.
Irish music shares with jazz a certain improvisatory quality. The composer - virtuallly all tunes in the modern Irish canon are compositions by indiviuals - writes the tune, and the musician plays about with it as he can or will. The three main ways of varying a tune are by:
Ornamentaion
Rhythmic variation, and
Melodic variation
Newer players tend to get hung up on the first, and ignore the latter two ways of varying a tune.
Modern transcriptions (Post O'Neill) are good ways of finding the bare bones of a tune.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by howsshecutting
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Noel didn't say it was rubbish, his remark about my playing was that it sounded like a piano keyboard instead of a concertina. I was the one that thought my playing was rubbish because it lacked the style that defines ITM. The problem was that I made up how to play ornaments and they sounded odd. I've heard other players since on other instruments who made up their own ornaments and style instead of learning it properly and their music sounds off as well. This is my point -- don't reinvent ITM just because you're in too big of a hurry or too lazy to learn it right.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
"Don't reinvent Irish Traditional Music just because you're in too big of a hurry or too lazy to learn it right" ... by The Pahantom Button
A moment of sanity in a world gone mad.
(Do you think we can take votes on this to get Jeremy to put it on the title page of this web site?)
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
a ... ?
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Those of us who've picked up or acquired inauthentic ITM playing habits can always console ourselves by having a listen to the liberties the doyens of ITM have taken with Scottish tunes and styles, for instance...!
But I do accept the gist of the thread, that ITM learners should listen to good players and try to learn good tune versions and techniques from them.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by nicholas
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
So here's the question I have for Jack: would you have been better off not touching the concertina for a few years until you had the opportunity to learn it correctly, or did you pick up a bunch of useful skills along the way that gave you a head start once you saw the light?
I bought a concertina in June. Three weeks later, I took the beginners class with Edel Fox at the Catskill Irish Arts Week. Of course I spent those three weeks learning where the notes were, getting it all wrong in terms of ornaments and choosing which row to get some of the notes from. But when the class started, I knew my way around the instrument, it felt comfortable in my hands, and I had a couple of dozen tunes that I could sort of make sound recognizable. By the end of the week with Edel, I knew what I had been doing wrong and what to do instead. In the six weeks since then, I've pretty much internalized those things. I'll bet it would have taken longer if I didn't have that three week head start.
I'm sure I'll do other things wrong between now and the next time I have access to expert advice, but the more I play and learn along the way, the more ready I'll be to understand and implement that advice.
Jack's advice about not reinventing Irish music is fine if it's no more than that - advice - which a player may accept or reject. My problem is with the attitude I sense in some people who take that stance: that those who choose not to "learn it right" shouldn't be playing Irish music at all. That they are somehow threatening the tradition by their attempts to play.
Folk music consists of all sorts of people playing the music they like, in the way they like, at their own skill level, for their own enjoyment, and maybe that of their family or a few friends. The aspects of it that catch on, survive, and flourish over several generations form the tradition. How much of the tradition an individual musician embraces is a personal decision, despite what anyone else thinks they "should" do. If people like what an individual musician does, maybe it'll catch on and become part of the tradition, and maybe not. If they don't, then there's no harm done and the musician has gotten personal enjoyment and satisfaction from playing. The funny thing is that nobody has any control over this, despite what people think. You can try to get people to like what you think the tradition should be, but it ultimately comes down to their tastes, which may or may not be yours.
The situation is totally different if someone plays music professionally. Then their live or recorded performances are essentially "employment" of the performer by the listener who spends time and (often) money for the experience. As the "employer", the listener gets to make up a "job description" and "evaluate" the performer based on that description. Hence the practice of music criticism and reviews. But it is completely inappropriate to impose one's personal "job description" on an amateur who did not "apply".
The tricky part, of course, is when people whose approach to the music differs from yours want to play with you. But then we get into the whole session ettiquette thing again.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Absolutely not Gary. And that's the point of the argument. This isn't advice that you can take or leave. Those people who choose (usually through laziness) not to learn it right do indeed threaten the music. And it makes no difference at all whether you make a living out of butchering it. You see it's about the insidious flattening out of the subtleties of it. As I mentioned before, some one comes along and has trouble getting a certain phrase in a tune and substitutes a phrase from another tune they already know and we all end up with tunes that sound the same. And the same with the articulation: somebody makes a sound that they think sounds a bit like like a roll and just says, what the heck, it's close enough. Well matey, if it's it's merely close enough, it ain't good enough. This ain't free jazz we're on about here.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no luddite. I'm not against experiment or evolving or personal interpretations. " If people like what an individual musician does, maybe it'll catch on and become part of the tradition, and maybe not. If they don't, then there's no harm done and the musician has gotten personal enjoyment and satisfaction from playing." Absolutely fine. But you MUST come at it from having learned it properly in the first place
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I had a week with Noel Hill and took his cross-fingering method under my belt. With some of his many examples to work at, 5 months later, my concertina style has totally changed and new tunes take on an NH style.
Nevertheless, as I came from an English tradition, there will still be some Geoff-isms in my style - it is not a slavish copy of his.
Thats what its all about - when new tunes are naturally played in the same style as ones you have played for years - your own.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I just had a listen to the only recording I've heard of Joe Bane, the whistle player from Glendree, East Clare. It's on Maiden Voyage, recorded in Pepper's in Feakle in the early 90s. He "makes a sound that they think sounds a bit like like a roll and just says, what the heck, it's close enough." It's pretty obvious that his technical skills were pretty rudimentary and he was simplifying things so he could play the tune. But the musicality in his playing was extraordinary. There's great rhythm and lift, too. I'd love to hear more.
If you listen to Open Hearth, the wonderful album by Andrew and Mary MacNamara of versions (learned from their father's recordings) of tunes they heard as children in the 70s from Joe Bane and Bill O'Malley, and look at Geoff Wright's fairly accurate transcriptions, you see that Joe and Bill simplified many of the tunes they played.
For example, in Sean Ryan's "Reel of Rio", the phrase eg (3gfg is played eggg throughout. Similar things are done with every triplet and every roll in the tune. Also, the version in The Hidden Ireland has the phrase agea|gede occuring three times. On "Open Hearth" it's simplified to ageg|gede. It's certainly easier on the whistle to alternate the g and e than it is to go back up to the a (only involving one hand rather than both). The first half of the B part is simplified quite radically, from b|dg (3gfg ag (gfg|bg (gfg edBd|eB (3B^AB G=ABd|gedB AGEG| to eggg aggg|aggg edBA|Bddd eddd|eedB AGEG|.
(If you're following along at home, note that the CD is mis-labeled. Reel of Rio is the second tune in cut 6, not the first. And the MacNamara's play it in F, but I'm describing it in G.)
Another example is in both Harvest Home and Off to California, where all of the triplets are gone.
Also, Morning Star has been stripped of all the twisty bits and all of the c#s. I just listened side by side to the Open Hearth version and versions by Elizabeth Crotty (with Paddy Canny), Martin Hayes, the Bothy Band, Tommy Peoples, Patrick Kelly, and Denis Murphy & Julia Clifford. All the long scale runs are gone, (sometimes replaced by one note played repeatedly!) and there are never more than eight notes in a bar. To compensate, they play it with lots of swing.
Did they learn these tunes properly in the first place before changing them? Who knows? Who will ever know? Who cares? "A short conversation soon led to Joe slipping the whistle from his breast pocket to calmly play a tune that had just come to him. More often than not, he was unable to say where he first heard the tune, who he heard it from or 'what the hell kind of a tune it was at all.'"
The subtleties in the melody, rhythm, and ornamentation in versions by more technically skilled players are gone, but replaced by other rhythmic subtleties and an airiness that gives you a fresh look at the tune.
I can see only two ways in which someone butchering a tune can threaten "the music". One is if it's a listener's first exposure to the music and it turns them off before they discover the real thing. The other is if a butchered version catches on and becomes dominant, marginalizing better versions. But then that's what I mean about nobody being able to control what becomes the tradition. As long as lots of people are "playing it right", I think the music is safe from those who aren't.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Or maybe these peoples' versions of tunes were learnt from much older versions before they got there rolls etc? This is a very important difference. And other people who learned this music properly, inovators, then put the rolls in.
This in no way excuses lazyness and gap filling.
And your scenario 1 is back to front. Unfortunatly, what happens time and time again is people get turned on by the sloppy copies and end up copying that. Dave Swarbrick is a good example. The Corrs is a more recent one.
And unfortunatly, your number 2 scenario is all too common. see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/99 for an example. And I can think of many many others.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I like Gary's inclusive description of folk music. Playing the music you love in a way you enjoy within the bounds of your current abilities is not necessarily laziness. Folk music is for folks (I think Louie Armstrong said that), and not all folks are virtuosos. I hate the idea that playing music should be limited to an elite group with the time and natural abilities to be able to do all the fancy ornamentation, play in odd keys at the drop of a hat, and play at ferocious speeds. I don't think that every session should stoop to the level of the least able player present, but slowing down once in a while to give everyone a chance to participate is a nice habit to get into. I don't think that "doing your own thing" is a threat to the tradition, as long as those doing their own thing don't claim to represent the tradition
That being said, there is also value in browndog's original assertion that some amount of hard work should be applied to fully learn a tune, and Michael's later assertions along the same lines. When you venture out into public, you no longer set your own standards, the standards of the group begin to apply. And every musician should strive to improve, or stagnation will result, to the detriment of the music, and your enjoyment of that music.
In a past discussion, I have stated that I played "Irish-American" music rather than ITM. Because of the many influences that enter the mix here in New England, I would be the first to admit that what I play is not the "pure drop," either in style, or in tune or song selections. And while I strive to master the ornamentation and style of the purer forms of Irish music, I am also content that having a local "accent" is not a bad thing.
This is a good, interesting discussion!
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Hi Gary, to answer your question... I suppose my pre-Noel Hill experience on the concertina wasn't a total waste, and I did develop a familiarity with the instrument's quirkiness in those first few years. But I also spent too much time spinning my wheels. It has taken me a lot longer to get the gist of the Paddy Murphy/Noel Hill style of concertina than it would have had I started with Noel. Also, I wish I had shown the whole phantom button thing a lot earlier. But that's all water under the bridge at this stage.
Secondly, I never suggested that ITM was under any threat from people who weren't interested in taking the time to learn it right. The only thing that's threatened is the person's own ability to play the music.
People use this website for a variety of reasons and it’s a great resource for people doing research on tunes and meeting players from around the world in cyberspace to share their experiences. I might be wrong, but I think people also come to this website for information on how to improve their playing. That's the premise I'm working with anyway.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I just listened again to the Joe Bane cut and I'm noticing ornaments that I didn't hear the first time, including some rolls. The tune is Boil the Kettle Early and he learned it from Paddy Canny, who uses lots of ornamentation generally, though I don't have a recording of him playing this tune. Pat O'Connor's recording has quite a bit more ornamentation, and some melody notes that Bane leaves out. O'Connor lives just a few miles from Canny, who is a major influence on his playing, and surely must have known Bane.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I also "hate the idea that playing music should be limited to an elite group with the time and natural abilities to be able to do all the fancy ornamentation, play in odd keys at the drop of a hat, and play at ferocious speeds". But we are not talking about that here. Learning it right is technically no harder than learning it wrong. Rolls aren't difficult, getting the notes in the right order is not difficult. And Irish music doesn't play in daft, difficult keys, G, D and relative modes are really all you need. And as for playing ferociously fast? There are few that would count that as any where near an essential.
I've often said, and it's always worth repeating, Diddley music is not difficult. And that's is one of it's beauties. The best of it is all about economy of everything, to let its simple nature speak, for it to be uncluttered. But again, you just have to learn it right.
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Lot of good points here. When I'm playing, I simply try & remember what a wise man once said, upon listening to a group of players who were playing very fast, over ornamented, ITM - "Too many notes, not enough Music"
# Posted on August 29th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Excelent tune was had last night. Flute player in (no need to name him, folks in edinburgh will know) who has this fine habit of going "do you know this tune" and playing a few phrases of a well known standard. Every body goes "yeah it's a cracker, on you go". But then he goes "well here's a different version of it" and proceeds to play the most tremendous setting you've ever heard. Everybody listens really hard and most have it in no time. They are almost never difficult and if you don't quite have it, he'll show you it phrase by phrase. Fantastic
# Posted on August 30th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
I know of elitist sessions stick to one version and they proclaim its the right one , they are called closed sessions and they are also known as cover bands.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by Joze
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Spot on BegF - That is spot on.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by bb
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
Oh Gary - they are not threatening the tradition - just giving me a bad headache.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by bb
Re: "Learn it right" (sentiments derived from The Tail Does Not Wag...)
bb - Wait until the BB (Bodhran Brotherhood) finds out that melody players are encroaching on their territory! They have, how shall we say, a close relationship with the major players in the pharmaceutical industry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2006 by GaryAMartin