I've got one - but I don't play it anymore because it's just not as nice of a fiddle as my primary fiddle. It's OK good for double stops under the G-string notes.
Heifetz played an aluminum violin once, but he didn't make a career of it.
The difficult problem with a 5-string fiddle (or viola or cello for that matter) is coping with the additional stresses on the body of the instrument. I understand that you may have to use thicker wood, in which case the resonance and response of the instrument will suffer. That probably explains Brad's comment. But, Brad, have the instrument looked at by an expert - careful adjustment or replacement of soundpost, bridge, bass-bar even, and choice of strings may do the trick.
People have experimented with 10-course classical guitars - the great Narciso Yepes used one for years - but the tone sounds dull compared with the traditional 6-course guitar. You're getting the same problem of trying to cope with the additional stresses.
5-string cellos have been made with an E above the A, only a handful - the late Florence Hooton had one, with the specific object of playing Bach's 6th suite for unaccompanied cello which was written for a 5-stringed instrument now lost. The suite is playable (with difficulty I might add!) on the standard instrument, but it's necessary to make alterations to the chording in the sarabande. Schubert also wrote a sonata for a 5-string cello (the "arpeggione" sonata) but that's well within the range of modern technique on the standard cello.
I wonder (I'm not a fiddle maker or repairer) if a 5-string viola (with an E string) might be more feasible. Violas are naturally heavier and may be able to withstand the stresses more easily. Even so, it may be advisable to use lighter C and G strings to balance the E.
Another possibilty occurs to me. That of using gut strings on the 5-string instrument, tuning it to baroque pitch (A415) and placing a capo at the half-position. This may reduce the stresses to an acceptable level, but I wonder if the sound would be up to coping with the average session. It may sound ok solo, though.
5-string violins are available in electronic versions, where there's no soundbox and the extra stresses aren't a problem, but who wants to play one of those in a pub session!
I think we need good technical input on this one from an experienced fiddle maker.
I have a 5 string violin that a luthier friend of mine from Cape Breton made for me last February, and it's the size of a 3/4 viola. The difference is size and weight is noticeable (compared to my 4 string), and the fingerboard is of course wider, and the interval between notes slighter greater. There's a definite adjustment time required for me to feel comfortable playing it, but the resonance of the low C, G and D strings is well worth it. It is good for playing tunes an octave lower, double-stopping, playing harmonies---and you could also play viola music if you were into it. I find the upper strings, the E and A, to be a bit thin sounding compared to my other fiddle, but I'm not sure if that's something that may change as it's played more and more......It's a beautifully made instrument, and I know all new instruments have a "breaking-in" period. It would be nice to know if there are things that can be done to fill out that upper end a bit more....does anyone have any suggestions?
.
aoife
I don't know what strings you're using, but on my fiddle I find zyex A, D and G with a pirastro olive E remarkably resonant. And they're not too expensive. There's also the helicore range, made by the same people who make the zyex strings.
Another idea has occured to me. I assume that all the strings on your 5-fiddle are tuned in pure fifths. This is as it should be for 4 stringed fiddles, but when you add a 5th low string the situation changes in a rather subtle manner. The C has an E harmonic. You can find it by touching the C string lightly more or less where the E is. If all your strings are tuned exactly in pure fifths you will hear this harmonic E as being slightly flatter in pitch than your E string (652Hz as against 660Hz). The suggestion is that you sharpen the tuning of your C so that its E harmonic is the same pitch as your E string. It's not very much - only 8Hz or about 1/5th of a semitone, and an electronic tuner might help in the early stages until your ear gets accustomed to such small pitch differences.
The theory is that if the C and E strings have a harmonic exactly in common then there will be some extra resonance. This is also helped by the fact that the A and E strings also have this E harmonic in common (often used for a quiet check on tuning) and so there should further resonance involving the A string.
I'm told there's at least one professional string quartet in the UK who make use of this theory when tuning up. The cello and viola tune their C strings just that shade sharp so that the E harmonic matches the pitch of the E strings on the two violins, and so enhancing the resonance of the quartet as a whole.
Honestly, I've no idea whether this works on a 5-fiddle. It may depend a lot on the inherent resonance, response and setup of the instrument, perhaps on the type of string as well. But it won't do any harm in experimenting. I think you'll probably need fairly quiet surroundings because I'm sure it will need careful listening, at least in the early stages.
It's a silly thing
A violin is a violin and a viola is a viola.
The two have such distinctive characteristics that to merge them is just a shame. You lose the best of both and what is the gain? A little more range. It's just not worth it
Actually, Michael, a 5-string viola would be an attractive proposition for me if only to learn Bach's 6th cello suite on a 5-string instrument. It is believed that the instrument Bach wrote for was probably something between the size of a viola and a small cello, but it was played like a cello. So a 5-string viola would be suitable, and really the only option since a 5-string cello would be horrendously expensive to get hold of.
I admit this is getting well away from irish trad music, so your comments stand!
Unfortunately, the quick answer as to where can you get a fiddle capo is "I don't know". I was thinking off the top of my head (bad habit, must get out more). Mandolins have fairly slim necks. I wonder if a mandolin capo could be used or adapted. Some of the specialist fiddle shops may know about it, but I don't know of any that I could suggest at the moment, sorry.
The answer to the B below the low C, if you really need that B, is to tune the C string down to B. This trick of retuning strings from their normal pitch is known technically as scordatura and is used sometimes in violins and cellos and quite a lot in fretted instruments. Tuning the bottom one or two strings down a semitone often enhances the instrument's resonance, but you've got to think carefully about the fingering on those retuned strings . Tuning down more than a semitone will make the string too floppy and it's pitch will wander.
Yeah, I know about tuning down. My point is, no matter what your lowest note is, there's always a lower one down there to wish for. Meanwhile, I'll keep on wishing for a fiddle capo.
Michael wrote:
"It's a silly thing. A violin is a violin, a viola is a viola"
A few weeks ago I listened to the Swedish-English group SWAP where the Swedish fiddle Ola B
I'm with Micheal on this one. If your playing Irish trad there isn't any reason to have one because nothing is written for it and its not likely to become a big hit and starting adding appreciably to the music. I think it falls under the category of trick fiddling. Its OK if your on stage with your own band, but kind of dumb for session playing.
Now if you want to take up Renaisance Swedish music or jazz you may be on the right track.
I don't damn the thing, but I agree it's not by any stretch of the imagination "needed". The only thing i liked about it is being able to play an octave down or in the octave with everyone else at the drop of a hat. As with any instrument not commonly used in trad music - it all depends who's playing it. If the player is adding by blending in it's OK, if their pulling a "Wow look at me & my 5-string" well, that's just bad. I only bought mine cause it was dirt cheap & I had the money in my pocket. I also got what I paid for.
Hi All,
A friend of mine asked me would I pass this information along as he thought it might be of some use :
"There are two makers (that I know of) who have developed a five string violin . One Is Gang Wang ,as played by Osian McCually and
the other is made by John Silakowsky a maker in Scotsburg Indiana
phone-U.S.A. 812-752-5837. Silakowsky's Five string fiddles are played by
Two times International Blugrass Music Assocation fiddler of the year Michael Cleveland, Lonesome River Band's Mike Hartgrove,Casey Dreason and his former teacher from the Berkley
School of music.
Other people who are well known professionals in the Bluegrass/ country
music field are Ricky Skags(Kentucky Thunder)band's fiddler , full-time five string
fiddler Bobby Hicks ,Nashville Bluegrass and session fiddler Aubry Hainey. Also the late great Randy Howard a Bluegrass, and contest and nashville session fiddler owned and played
two
of John Sliakowsk's Five string fiddles
There are many more "Traditional"Blugrass and country Fiddlers who
are enjoying playing the five string fiddle. John Silakowsky knows and has built violins for many of them."
Brad says "It's not by any stretch of the imagination needed".
H'es got it right there. If you feel the need for the extra bit, you're just not stretching your imagination enough on the instrument you already have
I obtained my 5-string fiddle some 2 years ago and to be quite frank I couldn't be happier with it - it sounds superb giving a rich full sound with good volume. Tim Phillips who lives in Wales made it and I note that Cait inserted a link to his site earlier in this discussion. Incidentally my picture is on his site playing the fiddle in a session in Winchester. The fiddle is essentially a small-scale viola with an extra string at the top. It has a viola bridge and is the same thickness as a viola. Ok it took some time to get used to it an even more to find strings I could get on with. I eventually settled for a Pirastro Piranito 1/2 + 1/3 viola set with a Corelli Alliance 'E'. The best deal I found was from a company called Strings Direct Limited and their website can be found at www.sdlmusic.com this is a UK based company but I'm sure they would post elsewhere.
AOG
I was NOT talking about Swedish Renaissance Music. The group swaps between ITM and Swedish Folk. Hence the name.
And guys, watch out for the jazz police...excuse me...the ITM police. They might watch you!
Trevor--Thanks for the suggestion. I had never heard of tuning by using harmonics in this way.....it's an interesting concept, and I'll give it a try. I'm still not sure why the "E" harmonic on the C string would be slightly different than the E string though.....why is that? --Aoife
ok, you asked for it! I'll have to go a little into the maths and physics of strings to explain this one, if you'll bear with me.
If you tune your A to standard concert pitch its frequency will be 440hz.
The E is tuned to a pure 5th above the A so you multiply the frequency of the A by 1.5, thus getting the frequency of the E string as 660hz.
When you tune the D to a pure 5th below the A you divide the frequency of the A by 1.5, thus getting the frequency of the D string as 293.33hz.
Apply the same procedure to tuning the G string from the D and you'll get 293.33 divided by 1.5 = 195.56hz.
Similarly, the frequency of the low C string will be 195.56 divided by 1.5 = 130.37hz.
(I've used the word "divide" rather than a slash because using that character can sometimes cause strange things to happen in the html code lurking in the background on these websites.)
Let's look at the harmonics of a vibrating string. The harmonics are present in the sound of a vibrating string in various proportions which colour the sound. And these harmonics can cause useful resonances with other strings. The frequencies of the harmonics can be calculated easily as follows:
If you lightly touch a vibrating string exactly halfway along its length you'll get the 1st harmonic which is an octave above the natural vibration of the string (called the "fundamental") and twice its frequency.
If you lightly touch the string exactly one-third along its length you'll get the 2nd harmonic which is an octave + a fifth above the fundamental (3x its frequency). If you think about it, this 2nd harmonic is the same frequency as the 1st harmonic of the next string tuned a pure 5th above. So the 2nd harmonic on the A should be the same as the 1st harmonic on the E. This is used as a basis for a quick and quiet check on tuning while you're playing, but you should try not to use it as a regular substitute for the normal tuning procedure using open strings.
If you lightly touch the string exactly one-fourth along its length you'll get the 3rd harmonic which is 2 octaves above the fundamental (4x its frequency). If you press your finger firmly onto the fingerboard in this position you'll find you're playing the note that is a fourth above the open string.
Now, getting to the object of this exercise (at last!), if you touch the string lightly one-fifth along its length you'll get the 4th harmonic which is 2 octaves + a major third above the fundamental (5x its frequency). You'll find this harmonic in the vicinity of the note that is a major third above the open string (C# for the A, F# for the D, etc).
Applying all this stuff to your C string which you've tuned using pure 5ths, if you calculate its 4th harmonic you'll get:
130.37 x 5 = 651.85hz, (or 652hz rounded up)
This frequency of 652hz is an E which is slightly but audibly flatter than the 660hz of the open E string, so cannot cause it to resonate. So if you raise the tuning of the C string by a small amount you can get its 4th harmonic E to equal the 660hz of the open E. And there you have it - a little extra resonance in the instrument.
Don't expect this to show up in a session because it won't. There's too much going on in the form of whistles, flutes, uilleans, boxes, banjos, other fiddles, click of beer glasses, talking etc, and none of the instruments can hope to exactly match each other's intonation. But it could work for someone playing solo in a recording studio, and, as I've said, some professional classical string quartets use this type of tuning for the cello and viola C's because they're performing in quiet resonant surroundings, perhaps a recording studio, and anyway they're probably playing instruments most of us can only dream of!
A capo for a fiddle? Mandolins usually have flat fingerboards - no plucked fretted instrument has as much camber on its fingerboard as a violinm - so a mandolin capo would be of little use. Furthermore, positioning it correctly would be much more difficult than on a fretted instrument. A capo is designed to cause the strings to be stopped at the next fret, not to stop the strings itself, so a fiddle capo, if such a thing exists, must be a very different animal.
Continuing my monolog (!) on tuning with harmonics, there is actually a real use for the pitch of that 4th harmonic on a 4-string fiddle tuned in pure fifths when playing slow airs, for example. If you have, for instance, a G major chord consisting of the open G and D strings with the B natural on the A string trying playing that B a little flatter so as to correspond to the B harmonic on the G string. You can find the pitch of the B harmonic on the G string by touching the string lightly with the 3rd finger at the place where you would normally play the B, and bowing lightly. When you find the harmonic remember its pitch and apply it to the B on the A string for when you strike that G major chord. If you get it right you
David,
I take your point. My idea of a fiddle capo was a bit half-baked and perhaps should be put on the back burner which should now be turned off.
However. I think you could provide a moveable fret on a fiddle by tying a thick piece of gut string round the neck of the fiddle in the appropriate position. Lutes use this technique and fine adjustments can be made as necessary. So it may be possible to design a suitable capo that could sit immediately behind that fret. Just a thought. I think I'll now go and lie down.
I own a 5 string fiddle and have not trouble with it. It is great for writting pigs of tunes aswell. How ever they do need breaking in. I have had mine for 2 years and it is getting there. They start very mellow you see, and the 5 string viola is even mellower!
Well, I am recently returned from NEFFA where I sold both the black walnut AND the maple backed Brunkalla 5 strings!! I guess it's true what someone said, that folkies are more open-minded about things like 5 strings than any other musicians. I took these fiddles 10,000 round trip to Germany and back without a peep of interest. But only had to drive 60 miles to sell them both.
I'll be getting in a new batch of 5 strings in a couple weeks. Let me know if you're interested in taking a look at them. You can see pics on the website (http://adamsweet.com/), or email me and I'll send you some.
5 String Violins
5 String Violins
Has anyone experienced playing celtic music on a five string fiddle? http://adamsweet.com/brunkalla.htm
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by A.R. Sweet
Re: 5 String Violins
I've got one - but I don't play it anymore because it's just not as nice of a fiddle as my primary fiddle. It's OK good for double stops under the G-string notes.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by B Rad
Re: 5 String Violins
ps it's also nice for playing an octave down.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by B Rad
Re: 5 String Violins
Slightly off topic, but has anyone ever heard what a tin fiddle sounds like. Apparently they were quite common one time. Or so someone told me.
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by RonanOD
Re: 5 String Violins
Heifetz played an aluminum violin once, but he didn't make a career of it.
The difficult problem with a 5-string fiddle (or viola or cello for that matter) is coping with the additional stresses on the body of the instrument. I understand that you may have to use thicker wood, in which case the resonance and response of the instrument will suffer. That probably explains Brad's comment. But, Brad, have the instrument looked at by an expert - careful adjustment or replacement of soundpost, bridge, bass-bar even, and choice of strings may do the trick.
People have experimented with 10-course classical guitars - the great Narciso Yepes used one for years - but the tone sounds dull compared with the traditional 6-course guitar. You're getting the same problem of trying to cope with the additional stresses.
5-string cellos have been made with an E above the A, only a handful - the late Florence Hooton had one, with the specific object of playing Bach's 6th suite for unaccompanied cello which was written for a 5-stringed instrument now lost. The suite is playable (with difficulty I might add!) on the standard instrument, but it's necessary to make alterations to the chording in the sarabande. Schubert also wrote a sonata for a 5-string cello (the "arpeggione" sonata) but that's well within the range of modern technique on the standard cello.
I wonder (I'm not a fiddle maker or repairer) if a 5-string viola (with an E string) might be more feasible. Violas are naturally heavier and may be able to withstand the stresses more easily. Even so, it may be advisable to use lighter C and G strings to balance the E.
Another possibilty occurs to me. That of using gut strings on the 5-string instrument, tuning it to baroque pitch (A415) and placing a capo at the half-position. This may reduce the stresses to an acceptable level, but I wonder if the sound would be up to coping with the average session. It may sound ok solo, though.
5-string violins are available in electronic versions, where there's no soundbox and the extra stresses aren't a problem, but who wants to play one of those in a pub session!
I think we need good technical input on this one from an experienced fiddle maker.
trevor
# Posted on November 22nd 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
I have a 5 string violin that a luthier friend of mine from Cape Breton made for me last February, and it's the size of a 3/4 viola. The difference is size and weight is noticeable (compared to my 4 string), and the fingerboard is of course wider, and the interval between notes slighter greater. There's a definite adjustment time required for me to feel comfortable playing it, but the resonance of the low C, G and D strings is well worth it. It is good for playing tunes an octave lower, double-stopping, playing harmonies---and you could also play viola music if you were into it. I find the upper strings, the E and A, to be a bit thin sounding compared to my other fiddle, but I'm not sure if that's something that may change as it's played more and more......It's a beautifully made instrument, and I know all new instruments have a "breaking-in" period. It would be nice to know if there are things that can be done to fill out that upper end a bit more....does anyone have any suggestions?
.
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by aoife
Re: 5 String Violins
http://www.timsviolins.co.uk/
Any number of beautiful fiddles.
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by Caitriona
Re: 5 String Violins
aoife
I don't know what strings you're using, but on my fiddle I find zyex A, D and G with a pirastro olive E remarkably resonant. And they're not too expensive. There's also the helicore range, made by the same people who make the zyex strings.
trevor
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
aoife
Another idea has occured to me. I assume that all the strings on your 5-fiddle are tuned in pure fifths. This is as it should be for 4 stringed fiddles, but when you add a 5th low string the situation changes in a rather subtle manner. The C has an E harmonic. You can find it by touching the C string lightly more or less where the E is. If all your strings are tuned exactly in pure fifths you will hear this harmonic E as being slightly flatter in pitch than your E string (652Hz as against 660Hz). The suggestion is that you sharpen the tuning of your C so that its E harmonic is the same pitch as your E string. It's not very much - only 8Hz or about 1/5th of a semitone, and an electronic tuner might help in the early stages until your ear gets accustomed to such small pitch differences.
The theory is that if the C and E strings have a harmonic exactly in common then there will be some extra resonance. This is also helped by the fact that the A and E strings also have this E harmonic in common (often used for a quiet check on tuning) and so there should further resonance involving the A string.
I'm told there's at least one professional string quartet in the UK who make use of this theory when tuning up. The cello and viola tune their C strings just that shade sharp so that the E harmonic matches the pitch of the E strings on the two violins, and so enhancing the resonance of the quartet as a whole.
Honestly, I've no idea whether this works on a 5-fiddle. It may depend a lot on the inherent resonance, response and setup of the instrument, perhaps on the type of string as well. But it won't do any harm in experimenting. I think you'll probably need fairly quiet surroundings because I'm sure it will need careful listening, at least in the early stages.
Let us know how you get on!
trevor
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
I'm not sure, but I believe that the fiddle player from Nickel Creek plays a 5 string violin.
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by jmmana
Re: 5 String Violins
Oisin McAuley from 'Danu' plays a 5-string fiddle with the band. It sounds great on stage, especially when backing Ciaran's singing.
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by mp3
Re: 5 String Violins
It's a silly thing
A violin is a violin and a viola is a viola.
The two have such distinctive characteristics that to merge them is just a shame. You lose the best of both and what is the gain? A little more range. It's just not worth it
# Posted on November 23rd 2002 by ...
Re: 5 String Violins
Actually, Michael, a 5-string viola would be an attractive proposition for me if only to learn Bach's 6th cello suite on a 5-string instrument. It is believed that the instrument Bach wrote for was probably something between the size of a viola and a small cello, but it was played like a cello. So a 5-string viola would be suitable, and really the only option since a 5-string cello would be horrendously expensive to get hold of.
I admit this is getting well away from irish trad music, so your comments stand!
trevor
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
Trevor ---
You mentioned a capo for a five-string fiddle. Is there a capo for a regular fiddle? If so, WHERE DO YOU GET ONE? I didn't know such a thing existed.
By the way, Texas fiddler Johnny Gimble plays a 5-string. That low C must be nice. But even then, you'd always be reaching for the B below it.
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by carolsviolin
Re: 5 String Violins
carolsviolin ---
. Tuning down more than a semitone will make the string too floppy and it's pitch will wander.
Unfortunately, the quick answer as to where can you get a fiddle capo is "I don't know". I was thinking off the top of my head (bad habit, must get out more). Mandolins have fairly slim necks. I wonder if a mandolin capo could be used or adapted. Some of the specialist fiddle shops may know about it, but I don't know of any that I could suggest at the moment, sorry.
The answer to the B below the low C, if you really need that B, is to tune the C string down to B. This trick of retuning strings from their normal pitch is known technically as scordatura and is used sometimes in violins and cellos and quite a lot in fretted instruments. Tuning the bottom one or two strings down a semitone often enhances the instrument's resonance, but you've got to think carefully about the fingering on those retuned strings
-trevor
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
Thanks, Trevor,
Yeah, I know about tuning down. My point is, no matter what your lowest note is, there's always a lower one down there to wish for. Meanwhile, I'll keep on wishing for a fiddle capo.
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by carolsviolin
Re: 5 String Violins
Michael wrote:
"It's a silly thing. A violin is a violin, a viola is a viola"
A few weeks ago I listened to the Swedish-English group SWAP where the Swedish fiddle Ola B
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by lars
Re: 5 String Violins
I'm with Micheal on this one. If your playing Irish trad there isn't any reason to have one because nothing is written for it and its not likely to become a big hit and starting adding appreciably to the music. I think it falls under the category of trick fiddling. Its OK if your on stage with your own band, but kind of dumb for session playing.
Now if you want to take up Renaisance Swedish music or jazz you may be on the right track.
AOG
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by AOG
Re: 5 String Violins
I don't damn the thing, but I agree it's not by any stretch of the imagination "needed". The only thing i liked about it is being able to play an octave down or in the octave with everyone else at the drop of a hat. As with any instrument not commonly used in trad music - it all depends who's playing it. If the player is adding by blending in it's OK, if their pulling a "Wow look at me & my 5-string" well, that's just bad. I only bought mine cause it was dirt cheap & I had the money in my pocket. I also got what I paid for.
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by B Rad
Re: 5 String Violins
Hi All,
A friend of mine asked me would I pass this information along as he thought it might be of some use :
"There are two makers (that I know of) who have developed a five string violin . One Is Gang Wang ,as played by Osian McCually and
the other is made by John Silakowsky a maker in Scotsburg Indiana
phone-U.S.A. 812-752-5837. Silakowsky's Five string fiddles are played by
Two times International Blugrass Music Assocation fiddler of the year Michael Cleveland, Lonesome River Band's Mike Hartgrove,Casey Dreason and his former teacher from the Berkley
School of music.
Other people who are well known professionals in the Bluegrass/ country
music field are Ricky Skags(Kentucky Thunder)band's fiddler , full-time five string
fiddler Bobby Hicks ,Nashville Bluegrass and session fiddler Aubry Hainey. Also the late great Randy Howard a Bluegrass, and contest and nashville session fiddler owned and played
two
of John Sliakowsk's Five string fiddles
There are many more "Traditional"Blugrass and country Fiddlers who
are enjoying playing the five string fiddle. John Silakowsky knows and has built violins for many of them."
John
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by banjowalsh
5 String Violins
That should be Oisin MacAuley from Danu, who plays the 5 string by Gang Wang.
John
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by banjowalsh
Re: 5 String Violins
Brad says "It's not by any stretch of the imagination needed".
H'es got it right there. If you feel the need for the extra bit, you're just not stretching your imagination enough on the instrument you already have
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by ...
Re: 5 String Violins
I obtained my 5-string fiddle some 2 years ago and to be quite frank I couldn't be happier with it - it sounds superb giving a rich full sound with good volume. Tim Phillips who lives in Wales made it and I note that Cait inserted a link to his site earlier in this discussion. Incidentally my picture is on his site playing the fiddle in a session in Winchester. The fiddle is essentially a small-scale viola with an extra string at the top. It has a viola bridge and is the same thickness as a viola. Ok it took some time to get used to it an even more to find strings I could get on with. I eventually settled for a Pirastro Piranito 1/2 + 1/3 viola set with a Corelli Alliance 'E'. The best deal I found was from a company called Strings Direct Limited and their website can be found at www.sdlmusic.com this is a UK based company but I'm sure they would post elsewhere.
# Posted on November 24th 2002 by stacey
Re: 5 String Violins
Stacey
I'd live to be proved wrong here, and no offence, but have you ever had a shot on a decent viola?
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by ...
Re: 5 String Violins
AOG
I was NOT talking about Swedish Renaissance Music. The group swaps between ITM and Swedish Folk. Hence the name.
And guys, watch out for the jazz police...excuse me...the ITM police. They might watch you!
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by lars
Re: 5 String Violins
Trevor--Thanks for the suggestion. I had never heard of tuning by using harmonics in this way.....it's an interesting concept, and I'll give it a try. I'm still not sure why the "E" harmonic on the C string would be slightly different than the E string though.....why is that? --Aoife
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by aoife
Re: 5 String Violins
aoife
ok, you asked for it! I'll have to go a little into the maths and physics of strings to explain this one, if you'll bear with me.
If you tune your A to standard concert pitch its frequency will be 440hz.
The E is tuned to a pure 5th above the A so you multiply the frequency of the A by 1.5, thus getting the frequency of the E string as 660hz.
When you tune the D to a pure 5th below the A you divide the frequency of the A by 1.5, thus getting the frequency of the D string as 293.33hz.
Apply the same procedure to tuning the G string from the D and you'll get 293.33 divided by 1.5 = 195.56hz.
Similarly, the frequency of the low C string will be 195.56 divided by 1.5 = 130.37hz.
(I've used the word "divide" rather than a slash because using that character can sometimes cause strange things to happen in the html code lurking in the background on these websites.)
Let's look at the harmonics of a vibrating string. The harmonics are present in the sound of a vibrating string in various proportions which colour the sound. And these harmonics can cause useful resonances with other strings. The frequencies of the harmonics can be calculated easily as follows:
If you lightly touch a vibrating string exactly halfway along its length you'll get the 1st harmonic which is an octave above the natural vibration of the string (called the "fundamental") and twice its frequency.
If you lightly touch the string exactly one-third along its length you'll get the 2nd harmonic which is an octave + a fifth above the fundamental (3x its frequency). If you think about it, this 2nd harmonic is the same frequency as the 1st harmonic of the next string tuned a pure 5th above. So the 2nd harmonic on the A should be the same as the 1st harmonic on the E. This is used as a basis for a quick and quiet check on tuning while you're playing, but you should try not to use it as a regular substitute for the normal tuning procedure using open strings.
If you lightly touch the string exactly one-fourth along its length you'll get the 3rd harmonic which is 2 octaves above the fundamental (4x its frequency). If you press your finger firmly onto the fingerboard in this position you'll find you're playing the note that is a fourth above the open string.
Now, getting to the object of this exercise (at last!), if you touch the string lightly one-fifth along its length you'll get the 4th harmonic which is 2 octaves + a major third above the fundamental (5x its frequency). You'll find this harmonic in the vicinity of the note that is a major third above the open string (C# for the A, F# for the D, etc).
Applying all this stuff to your C string which you've tuned using pure 5ths, if you calculate its 4th harmonic you'll get:
130.37 x 5 = 651.85hz, (or 652hz rounded up)
This frequency of 652hz is an E which is slightly but audibly flatter than the 660hz of the open E string, so cannot cause it to resonate. So if you raise the tuning of the C string by a small amount you can get its 4th harmonic E to equal the 660hz of the open E. And there you have it - a little extra resonance in the instrument.
Don't expect this to show up in a session because it won't. There's too much going on in the form of whistles, flutes, uilleans, boxes, banjos, other fiddles, click of beer glasses, talking etc, and none of the instruments can hope to exactly match each other's intonation. But it could work for someone playing solo in a recording studio, and, as I've said, some professional classical string quartets use this type of tuning for the cello and viola C's because they're performing in quiet resonant surroundings, perhaps a recording studio, and anyway they're probably playing instruments most of us can only dream of!
trevor
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
A capo for a fiddle? Mandolins usually have flat fingerboards - no plucked fretted instrument has as much camber on its fingerboard as a violinm - so a mandolin capo would be of little use. Furthermore, positioning it correctly would be much more difficult than on a fretted instrument. A capo is designed to cause the strings to be stopped at the next fret, not to stop the strings itself, so a fiddle capo, if such a thing exists, must be a very different animal.
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: 5 String Violins (and tuning by harmonics)
Continuing my monolog (!) on tuning with harmonics, there is actually a real use for the pitch of that 4th harmonic on a 4-string fiddle tuned in pure fifths when playing slow airs, for example. If you have, for instance, a G major chord consisting of the open G and D strings with the B natural on the A string trying playing that B a little flatter so as to correspond to the B harmonic on the G string. You can find the pitch of the B harmonic on the G string by touching the string lightly with the 3rd finger at the place where you would normally play the B, and bowing lightly. When you find the harmonic remember its pitch and apply it to the B on the A string for when you strike that G major chord. If you get it right you
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
5 string violins (with capo?)
David,
I take your point. My idea of a fiddle capo was a bit half-baked and perhaps should be put on the back burner which should now be turned off.
However. I think you could provide a moveable fret on a fiddle by tying a thick piece of gut string round the neck of the fiddle in the appropriate position. Lutes use this technique and fine adjustments can be made as necessary. So it may be possible to design a suitable capo that could sit immediately behind that fret. Just a thought. I think I'll now go and lie down.
trevor
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by Trevor Jennings
Re: 5 String Violins
Fiddle capos? I thought those were called "positions".
# Posted on November 25th 2002 by B Rad
Re: flat-earthers
5-string fiddles,indeed!
next you'll be telling me the earth is round.
as for fiddle capos,i could make you an offer you can't refuse...
# Posted on November 27th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: 5 String Violins
I own a 5 string fiddle and have not trouble with it. It is great for writting pigs of tunes aswell. How ever they do need breaking in. I have had mine for 2 years and it is getting there. They start very mellow you see, and the 5 string viola is even mellower!
# Posted on November 29th 2002 by ChrisTaylor
Re: 5 String Violins (NEFFA Success Story!!)
Well, I am recently returned from NEFFA where I sold both the black walnut AND the maple backed Brunkalla 5 strings!! I guess it's true what someone said, that folkies are more open-minded about things like 5 strings than any other musicians. I took these fiddles 10,000 round trip to Germany and back without a peep of interest. But only had to drive 60 miles to sell them both.
I'll be getting in a new batch of 5 strings in a couple weeks. Let me know if you're interested in taking a look at them. You can see pics on the website (http://adamsweet.com/), or email me and I'll send you some.
# Posted on April 29th 2003 by A.R. Sweet