Deep breath ....
What I'm about to say may be controversial and offensive to some people, judging by reactions I've received in the past.
I don't have a *big* problem with checking in my instruments. I prefer to carry them, but, in the course of 30 years domestic and international air travel, I've checked in guitars, mandolins and banjos many times.
Nothing untoward has happened. The cases - and sometimes gig bags - have suffered wear and tear - a broken hinge here, and missing rubber foot there - but not the instruments.
I have heard many anecdotal tales of damaged instruments, but only heard one in the first person - a poor chap from a renowned acoustic blues outfit whose guitar neck snapped inside a flight case en route to Aberdeen. A rigid case.
Not to say that it never happens - but I'm confident enough that today's cases, including the fabric polystyrene (or whatever that stuff is) packed fiddle cases that so many carry these days will be OK in the hold.
From the time in the 1970s I checked in my first guitar on my first ever flight and met Paul Stookey formerly of Peter Paul & Mary also collecting his guitar at the baggage carousel (it was good enough for him), to a recent trip where the whole band had to check their instruments in - nothing.
Contrary to what I've had people tell me, big airliner baggage holds are not sub-zero low-pressure instrument torture chambers. Cool yes, a bit chilly - but not as cold as the freeezing weather Scott Skinner and Peter Milne would've carried their instruments through to ceilidhs on Upper Deeside, for example.
Or even these days I believe Dagger Gordon drives to gigs with double bass strapped to the roof,as did Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys and who knows how many others.
Now, nobody wants to be responsible for telling someone to check in their fiddle without fear - in case it all goes wrong and we're held responsible for bad advice. But my feeling is that the dangers are vastly overstated, and I for one am not worried about checking in my mandolin for the return journey to the UK.
So, at least some of you out there, travel in hope and not in fear,and bring your instruments!
I'm sure there are some horror stories to tell on this thread, but please bear in mind that they are very much the exception
"very much the exception"?.....au contraire, mon frere....i checked a smaller sized, nice accordion during my early playing years, packed in a sturdy hard case. two separate techs have been unable to repair the discumbobulated notes, and have advised me that only complete dismantling of the interior system, to a cost of many hundreds of dollars, will do the trick. it was a high-quality and favorite instrument.
since then, when i have recounted this tale of woe to other musicians, the reaction has invariably and unanimously been a mix of derisive disbelief that i would do anything so stupid as to check an instrument, and adamant scolding admonishment never to do so again with any instrument i cared about.
I think the question boils down to how much you care about your instrument vs. the risk factor, which is not static and difficult to measure.. I've heard stories both good and bad.
A friend's handmade classical guitar resembled a pancake when he picked it up at the baggage carousel, which was interesting because the locked, hardshell case was 100% intact. On the other hand, I know several banjo players who regularly check their instruments, one playing a GIbson Mastertone (although with a custom setup), the other one several custom-made, unique Stellings, each of which cost him well over $3000 (and they were purchased years ago). The Stellings are insured. Neither have had any issues inside the case or out.
I blanche visibly each time someone tells me about checking an instrument like that. Personally, I wouldn't do it. However I have also heard stories about customs officials having their way with instruments, and I for one, can vouch for that. The Cairdin I bought from an Italian man was opened by customs officials, none of the bellows pins were tapped back in all the way and there were scratches around the screws holding the fingerboard, grille and backplate in place, also one of the reedblocks was loose, the screw rattling around inside. It was original, but had been tampered with, I guess they don't see too many of those? After talking to the seller and trading photos we confirmed that it had to have been customs -- I had already given him feedback and wasn't asking for a refund of any kind so I can't think of why he would have wanted to lie, if he did.
Bottom line is that you take a risk each time you let someone else handle your instrument. Considering the number of lost baggage claims there are each year, I'd never check an instrument I cared about or couldn't replace.
Do not put your fiddle in the unpressurised hold this is an no no. I have seen fiddle damage in an unpressurised hold the result the sound post came right through the belly of the fiddle as if some one had hit the soundpost with a hammer. What happens is as the sound pressure drops the force supporting the belly becomes less due to the decrease in air pressure, the downward pressure from the strings remains the same. This downward pressure from the strings is transferred through the soundpost as the pressure drops the belly is no longer able to support the upward reaction and the soundpost comes up through the belly splitting the belly along the grain at each side of the soundpost. If you dont belive me try it? However if you lossen the strings it may work but the soundpost may fall out I havent tried this. So you can belive Bren that the dangers are vasttly overstated or try it for your self.
With great respect, with open f holes, there's no way a gradual decompression in a climbing aircraft would cause that damage. It must have been something else.
Presumably the customs risk is part of taking an instrument across a national border, don't matter whether it's checked or hand, land, sea or air.
Surely there are two commercial opportunities here.
1. Cases or outer cases that will withstand baggage handlers.
2. Airlines offering genuine careful handling for delicate items.
It's worth bearing in mind that even with no case a fiddle exceeds cabin baggage dimension limits for most airlines.
Don't the airlines have a pressurized and temperature-controlled cargo option? People take pets on airplanes---maybe there's a way to have them put the instruments in with the animals...
This may help but may have been revised due to recent developments.
www.afvbm.com/aircraft%20carry-on.htm
This is a letter issued to americian carriers regarding the transportation of musical instruments
What I'm trying to get across is that, even with a letter from Pesident Bush, if they say "no carry-on" for security reasons, or they get strict on dimensions, you may have no choice except to check-in your instrument, or leave it behind.
It would be a crying shame if this led to less international musical interaction.
After reading these posts, I'd modify my opinion somewhat in the case of accordions and concertinas (most of which would fit the acceptable cabin dimensions), but see no reason to change in the case of fiddles, mandolins, banjos and guitars.
I have to add agreement to chadmills on pressurisation - brians has outlined an even more outlandish version of the myth as I usually hear it. Depressurisation and extreme cold would only happen in the smallest of light planes, and even then is highly unlikely to be the cause of the damage he describes.
I'd also add a word of caution about rigid hard-shell cases - it's not direct contact with your instrument that could cause damage in these but the jolting inside as they slide down chutes and have other bags cannon into them. That is why I think the polystyrene filled soft fiddle caes you see these days are an execllent bet for checked-in baggage. Although even in tiny west African airports I've had my case marked fragile and placed in a plastic bath type thing.
You can see how one fearful warning c/w horror story and wildly inaccurate attribution of causes can obscure a hundred experienced assessments though!
For the record, I fly, with mandolin or banjo, at least 30 times a year including (this year alone) returns to Australia and NZ, India, Bangladesh, Poland, Italy, Norway, France, Ireland, Netherlands, Azerbaijan, Russia, Kazakhstan and domestic flights in some of those countries. About 1/3 of the time I check it in, for one reason or another.
I started a thread about this issue a fortnight ago before I flew to Shetland via Aberdeen on British Airways. My flight out was pre the recent troubles, I used my lightweight (?fibreglass - i.e. moulded, so the fiddle can't move around inside it) case, didn't draw attention to it as advised by posters on this site, and was let onto both flights with it as hand luggage. Then, in the middle of my stay, the full restrictions came into force. I bought bubble-wrap which I wrapped round the outside of the case, put it into a black plastic bin liner, taped it up, put large labels saying "fragile" on the outside, and I am delighted to say that it survived both flights intact.. The luggage had to be unloaded from the flight from Aberdeen to take off someone's bags, and I watched my fiddle "parcel" gently lifted off, and then thrown around a bit, and then thrown back in. So this does suggest that the non-hard case maybe supports the fiddle better.
I'm going to Tonder festival next week and, although I've bought a new hard case for my mandolin, I'm still a bit reluctant to put it in the hold.
So, I might just dig out my old, cheap Ibanez model which cost just over £100 new several years ago. It's actually still OK for a tune, although not many people will be that impressed by it .
Still, it will be good enough for the pub and the occasional session so I'm probably better off being safe and sorry this time.
I think your bubble wrap, LW, was close to the case that seems to be needed. Much like a natural coconut! A thick, springy, shock absorbent layer on the outside of a rigid shell, then good instrument support inside that.
Although restrictions have now been eased, the overall progression seems to be one way only.
Another problem with all of this is that even the airlines vary in their policies, sometimes from day to day or even from staff person to staff person. I've gate-checked my guitar on one leg, and then had to check it as baggage on a later leg. On an international trip, I gate-checked it for pickup immediately upon arrival only to find out that some neanderthal had run it into the checked baggage system. This was in Atlanta after returning from Ireland, and I ran around the International wing of the airport looking for my guitar before it came out of the system onto the luggage carousel. At the last possible moment, I found the right carousel and caught my guitar as it came up and down the chute. (I hadn't packed it well enough to check it through, and the impact might have broken the headstock.) Fortunately, my $3,000 guitar survived, and so did I. But I don't fly with guitar anymore. I'm just an amateur, so there's no loss to the artistic community, but I wonder about the pro's.
Instruments as checked luggage
Instruments as checked luggage
Deep breath ....
What I'm about to say may be controversial and offensive to some people, judging by reactions I've received in the past.
I don't have a *big* problem with checking in my instruments. I prefer to carry them, but, in the course of 30 years domestic and international air travel, I've checked in guitars, mandolins and banjos many times.
Nothing untoward has happened. The cases - and sometimes gig bags - have suffered wear and tear - a broken hinge here, and missing rubber foot there - but not the instruments.
I have heard many anecdotal tales of damaged instruments, but only heard one in the first person - a poor chap from a renowned acoustic blues outfit whose guitar neck snapped inside a flight case en route to Aberdeen. A rigid case.
Not to say that it never happens - but I'm confident enough that today's cases, including the fabric polystyrene (or whatever that stuff is) packed fiddle cases that so many carry these days will be OK in the hold.
From the time in the 1970s I checked in my first guitar on my first ever flight and met Paul Stookey formerly of Peter Paul & Mary also collecting his guitar at the baggage carousel (it was good enough for him), to a recent trip where the whole band had to check their instruments in - nothing.
Contrary to what I've had people tell me, big airliner baggage holds are not sub-zero low-pressure instrument torture chambers. Cool yes, a bit chilly - but not as cold as the freeezing weather Scott Skinner and Peter Milne would've carried their instruments through to ceilidhs on Upper Deeside, for example.
Or even these days I believe Dagger Gordon drives to gigs with double bass strapped to the roof,as did Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys and who knows how many others.
Now, nobody wants to be responsible for telling someone to check in their fiddle without fear - in case it all goes wrong and we're held responsible for bad advice. But my feeling is that the dangers are vastly overstated, and I for one am not worried about checking in my mandolin for the return journey to the UK.
So, at least some of you out there, travel in hope and not in fear,and bring your instruments!
I'm sure there are some horror stories to tell on this thread, but please bear in mind that they are very much the exception
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by Bren
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
"very much the exception"?.....au contraire, mon frere....i checked a smaller sized, nice accordion during my early playing years, packed in a sturdy hard case. two separate techs have been unable to repair the discumbobulated notes, and have advised me that only complete dismantling of the interior system, to a cost of many hundreds of dollars, will do the trick. it was a high-quality and favorite instrument.
since then, when i have recounted this tale of woe to other musicians, the reaction has invariably and unanimously been a mix of derisive disbelief that i would do anything so stupid as to check an instrument, and adamant scolding admonishment never to do so again with any instrument i cared about.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by ceemonster
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
LAtest news is that they have already started downgrading the restrictions, as you would expect.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by Bren
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I think the question boils down to how much you care about your instrument vs. the risk factor, which is not static and difficult to measure.. I've heard stories both good and bad.
A friend's handmade classical guitar resembled a pancake when he picked it up at the baggage carousel, which was interesting because the locked, hardshell case was 100% intact. On the other hand, I know several banjo players who regularly check their instruments, one playing a GIbson Mastertone (although with a custom setup), the other one several custom-made, unique Stellings, each of which cost him well over $3000 (and they were purchased years ago). The Stellings are insured. Neither have had any issues inside the case or out.
I blanche visibly each time someone tells me about checking an instrument like that. Personally, I wouldn't do it. However I have also heard stories about customs officials having their way with instruments, and I for one, can vouch for that. The Cairdin I bought from an Italian man was opened by customs officials, none of the bellows pins were tapped back in all the way and there were scratches around the screws holding the fingerboard, grille and backplate in place, also one of the reedblocks was loose, the screw rattling around inside. It was original, but had been tampered with, I guess they don't see too many of those? After talking to the seller and trading photos we confirmed that it had to have been customs -- I had already given him feedback and wasn't asking for a refund of any kind so I can't think of why he would have wanted to lie, if he did.
Bottom line is that you take a risk each time you let someone else handle your instrument. Considering the number of lost baggage claims there are each year, I'd never check an instrument I cared about or couldn't replace.
And God Bless Bob Wills.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by gravelwalks
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
Do not put your fiddle in the unpressurised hold this is an no no. I have seen fiddle damage in an unpressurised hold the result the sound post came right through the belly of the fiddle as if some one had hit the soundpost with a hammer. What happens is as the sound pressure drops the force supporting the belly becomes less due to the decrease in air pressure, the downward pressure from the strings remains the same. This downward pressure from the strings is transferred through the soundpost as the pressure drops the belly is no longer able to support the upward reaction and the soundpost comes up through the belly splitting the belly along the grain at each side of the soundpost. If you dont belive me try it? However if you lossen the strings it may work but the soundpost may fall out I havent tried this. So you can belive Bren that the dangers are vasttly overstated or try it for your self.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by brians
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I said sound pressure above it should be air pressure silly me
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by brians
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
With great respect, with open f holes, there's no way a gradual decompression in a climbing aircraft would cause that damage. It must have been something else.
Presumably the customs risk is part of taking an instrument across a national border, don't matter whether it's checked or hand, land, sea or air.
Surely there are two commercial opportunities here.
1. Cases or outer cases that will withstand baggage handlers.
2. Airlines offering genuine careful handling for delicate items.
It's worth bearing in mind that even with no case a fiddle exceeds cabin baggage dimension limits for most airlines.
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
Don't the airlines have a pressurized and temperature-controlled cargo option? People take pets on airplanes---maybe there's a way to have them put the instruments in with the animals...
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
This may help but may have been revised due to recent developments.
www.afvbm.com/aircraft%20carry-on.htm
This is a letter issued to americian carriers regarding the transportation of musical instruments
# Posted on August 14th 2006 by brians
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
What I'm trying to get across is that, even with a letter from Pesident Bush, if they say "no carry-on" for security reasons, or they get strict on dimensions, you may have no choice except to check-in your instrument, or leave it behind.
It would be a crying shame if this led to less international musical interaction.
After reading these posts, I'd modify my opinion somewhat in the case of accordions and concertinas (most of which would fit the acceptable cabin dimensions), but see no reason to change in the case of fiddles, mandolins, banjos and guitars.
I have to add agreement to chadmills on pressurisation - brians has outlined an even more outlandish version of the myth as I usually hear it. Depressurisation and extreme cold would only happen in the smallest of light planes, and even then is highly unlikely to be the cause of the damage he describes.
I'd also add a word of caution about rigid hard-shell cases - it's not direct contact with your instrument that could cause damage in these but the jolting inside as they slide down chutes and have other bags cannon into them. That is why I think the polystyrene filled soft fiddle caes you see these days are an execllent bet for checked-in baggage. Although even in tiny west African airports I've had my case marked fragile and placed in a plastic bath type thing.
You can see how one fearful warning c/w horror story and wildly inaccurate attribution of causes can obscure a hundred experienced assessments though!
For the record, I fly, with mandolin or banjo, at least 30 times a year including (this year alone) returns to Australia and NZ, India, Bangladesh, Poland, Italy, Norway, France, Ireland, Netherlands, Azerbaijan, Russia, Kazakhstan and domestic flights in some of those countries. About 1/3 of the time I check it in, for one reason or another.
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by Bren
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I would no more leave my fiddle to the gorillas in baggage claim than I would my baby daughter.
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by Farr
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I started a thread about this issue a fortnight ago before I flew to Shetland via Aberdeen on British Airways. My flight out was pre the recent troubles, I used my lightweight (?fibreglass - i.e. moulded, so the fiddle can't move around inside it) case, didn't draw attention to it as advised by posters on this site, and was let onto both flights with it as hand luggage. Then, in the middle of my stay, the full restrictions came into force. I bought bubble-wrap which I wrapped round the outside of the case, put it into a black plastic bin liner, taped it up, put large labels saying "fragile" on the outside, and I am delighted to say that it survived both flights intact.. The luggage had to be unloaded from the flight from Aberdeen to take off someone's bags, and I watched my fiddle "parcel" gently lifted off, and then thrown around a bit, and then thrown back in. So this does suggest that the non-hard case maybe supports the fiddle better.
I am very relieved...
LW
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by LW
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I'm going to Tonder festival next week and, although I've bought a new hard case for my mandolin, I'm still a bit reluctant to put it in the hold.
So, I might just dig out my old, cheap Ibanez model which cost just over £100 new several years ago. It's actually still OK for a tune, although not many people will be that impressed by it
.
Still, it will be good enough for the pub and the occasional session so I'm probably better off being safe and sorry this time.
Next year, I'll get the boat!
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
I think your bubble wrap, LW, was close to the case that seems to be needed. Much like a natural coconut! A thick, springy, shock absorbent layer on the outside of a rigid shell, then good instrument support inside that.
Although restrictions have now been eased, the overall progression seems to be one way only.
# Posted on August 15th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
You would not have a problem with this on board: http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om22000.html
# Posted on August 16th 2006 by jinksy
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
Another problem with all of this is that even the airlines vary in their policies, sometimes from day to day or even from staff person to staff person. I've gate-checked my guitar on one leg, and then had to check it as baggage on a later leg. On an international trip, I gate-checked it for pickup immediately upon arrival only to find out that some neanderthal had run it into the checked baggage system. This was in Atlanta after returning from Ireland, and I ran around the International wing of the airport looking for my guitar before it came out of the system onto the luggage carousel. At the last possible moment, I found the right carousel and caught my guitar as it came up and down the chute. (I hadn't packed it well enough to check it through, and the impact might have broken the headstock.) Fortunately, my $3,000 guitar survived, and so did I. But I don't fly with guitar anymore. I'm just an amateur, so there's no loss to the artistic community, but I wonder about the pro's.
And then there's that U.S. visa thing...
# Posted on August 17th 2006 by Audeamus
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
Hey Jinksy, why can't all Bodhrans be that size?
# Posted on August 26th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Instruments as checked luggage
Now there's an idea! The vibrating frequency would be so high that not even bats would complain!
# Posted on August 26th 2006 by lazyhound