Are there many well known irish trad guitar players out there that have not recorded a whole lot?
For example. I have become a massive fan of Paul McSherrys guitar playing but can only find 3 albums he has previously recorded on. I am sure he has done a lot of albums.
There must be alot of well known musicians that have not been on alot of recordings.
One name that springs to mind is that of Mick O´Connor.
Although better known for his banjo playing, he is capable of really sensitive accompaniment of either singers or other musicians, on the guitar - probably something to do with the fact that he knows a vast number of tunes note for note.
And yet very little recorded material.
Another one is Dympna O´Sullivan, one of the best concertina players in Ireland in my opinion, and again, very little on record.
As to why this is so, only the musicians themselves can give a valid answer to that question. Perhaps it has something to do with their personalities.
In January I got to hear Dympna play in a session. I either asked when she'd make a CD or said I hoped she'd have a CD when I return next year. As I recall, she laughed a bit but didn't say anything.
Fair dues to them!! Why should people make CD's? Is that the mark of having made it these days. If so, I'm a long... long....long way off!!!!
Take Joe Cooley, one of the great box players - very little recorded material of him in his heyday and yet most people would have a grasp of his substance despite this paucity. Maybe less is more if you know what I mean....
i dont think it means they have made it as a musician if they have recorded.
I am simply asking the question as I wouid like to hear more of their music and as I dont drive or get to travel to different areas to hear them, The best solution is usually to purchase their albums as this is the closest I can get to hearing the real thing. Alot of favourite musicians have never recorded.
There are probably many reasons, but making a CD is a lot of work, costs money, takes a fair amount of time, etc. Chances are you won't recoup what you've put into it. Some musicians may not have the energy for all that.
I was talking to Dympna this morning as it happens. I think like a good few people she's not really bothered about the whole thing and quite happy to play as she does.
Junior Crehan was once asked why he didn't record. 'I was never asked' he replied. Why was Martin Rochford never put on a serious lp/CD? Who would have made him? A lot of talking had to go into convincing Brid O Donohue that she should put down some and she did but in the end only for her own good reasons.
Dympna by the way has tracks on the Ceol na mBan CD, on Kitty Hayes' first one, on the Lisseycasey GAA CD, on the Sanctuary sessions.
Another consideration is that in order to sell a reasonable number of CDs you will have to actively promote it, do gigs put yourself in the spotlight. if you don't you'll be stuck with a load of boxes full of CDs in your attic. And some people just can't be bothered to put themselves in the limelight.
In fairness: CD sales was part of the conversation this morning.
Thats a good point. I hadnt thought of that. I suppose there is a large chance people can get ripped off if they go with a record company also.
Personally I would like if the less recorded musicians , did get a chance to have their music left after they are gone.
There is an awful lot more to Traditional Irish music than what is out there for sale.The pile of c.d`s in the corner is only the tip of the iceberg. Not necessarily the cream of the milk either.
With a tip o' the hat to Cos, there's a lot more to -all- good music than is recorded... I think that's a good thing...
It's a funny notion that someone has 'made it' or is 'good enough' to record. I've heard that for decades, and the idea of someone approving of a player enough to 'allow' or 'invite' them to record has destroyed a whole lot of very talented players who hung their hopes on some such notion of success.
On the bright side, perhaps... I was talking with an audio guy in Ireland in '04 and I asked him how business was in recording music. He said that fewer and fewer folks could make a living at it because everyone had a studio in their computer anyway and were recording to everything from phones to iPods. <GG>
Aside from making it difficult for the professional recording studios, this spread of 'personal recording' devices means that the great players of this and future times will probably be recorded informally and the recordings will be passed around thru networks and friends.
So there's perhaps a -better- way for players to be widely heard, without all the baggage and expense of the commercial recording & distribution methods that dominated
the last half of the 20th century.
For my part, the commercial model of "record labels" can't die fast enough, and I've enjoyed making, listening to and collecting independent artists' CDs.
We made one because audiences asked us for one. At the time, it was more feasible than just posting mp3s to a website or any other more direct distribution method, and it was at sessions and our trio gigs where folks wanted them.
I think that new conventions of etiquette will form around recording artists in sessions or in performances. I record stuff informally sometimes and I've found players' views of being recorded to vary widely, as do their views of how the results might be shared. It's a good subject and there will be good discussions to come.
Thanks,
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
This is a really interesting discussion. eurbanjo has a very reasonable desire to hear “less commercial” musicians on CD (please note quotes – I’m not comfortable with the phrase but it’s useful shorthand). And there are equally reasonable answers as to why excellent players don’t record. All the more reason we should support, urge and encourage folks like stv culchie and kkrell in their efforts. Check out this thread:
I'd snap up a record of the Philadelphia/Connemara piper Sean McKiernan, who's one of the mightiest around now. He's simply reluctant I hear.
True that home studios have made it a no-brainer to make a good record anymore. Ronan Browne and Peadar O'Loughlin simply did their CD in Ronan's house. Good thing - feck studios!
Yes Kevin but Ronan does have a full blown studio in the house.Breda Keville's was recorded there too. But sitting down in the kitchen with a few mics is a pefectly viable option although when you're working efficiently a studio (and it's cost) is not such a problem either.
I have no idea how much of a living even the most successful of trad musicians can make from recordings. To sell a lot of CD's it would seem like you'd have to give concerts and tour relentlessly. It would seem that having kids would put the brakes on that kind of activity too, especially for women of course. I've heard, anecdotally, that some really successful, sought after players, like Liz Carroll, Josephine Marsh, Verena Commins, to name a few, have had a hiatus from recording for this reason. I sure wouldn't mind getting another Verena Commins / Julie Langan CD.
More than once I have had local musicians I know try to give me a CD for free from their pile at home when I asked to buy one; I always insist on paying full price for these. This makes me suspect that it's not a money making enterprise, but more purely an artisitic activity...?
It's amazing what a strong impact CD's, like the Commins / Langan CD, have had on the local session here, though the CD came in the wake of a live performance tour (which I didn't hear, but session leaders here did); so it's hard to say what impact the CD's alone would have.
Great topic, as for better or worse, CD's have become such a big part of how the music moves. It happens, but it's rare that I learn a tune from another player, without the support of a recording.
The cost of time and money has been mentioned already -- although as has also been noted, given advancements in technology and other factors it's possible to do a pretty good job on your own.
But one thing I don't think has been mentioned as a reason why some people don't record: They simply don't want to. The process of recording, of having to perch in front of a microphone and wait for "tape rolling" (or its modern-day, digital-era equivalent), is anathema for them. They prefer their music in the context of _performance_, formal or informal, and feel that a recording simply does not effectively capture or convey what they do.
Whether or not a recording makes money is highly variable. If you keep recording costs down and tour in support of a CD, it can do very well. If not, you can wind up with a million seller (a million in the cellar).
Edel Fox and Ronan O'Flaherty went through the first 1000 copies of their superb CD in about a month. I'm sure there's lots of promo copies in that run, but still...say they sold 700 at an average price of $15 (they sold for $20 at many of their shows, but some venues take a cut, and retail takes a cut), that's over $10,000. The production is very simple, so they've probably broken even in a month. If they continue at half that pace for the next four months and a quarter of that for the following eight months, that's about $42,000, minus manufacturing costs of maybe $4000. That's about $19,000 each for a year, but that will require plenty of touring.
Eoin O'Neill told me once that the best Irish music of the 21st century would be made, and recorded in kitchens, and that he didn't think that he'd make any more studio records at all.
Now, I think studios definitely have their place. <GG> I spent 30 years working in 'em so I must have liked 'em ok... and I still do. But I've put more time and money in the last year into tools that will allow me to make high quality kitchen/pub recordings than I have stuff for the studio itself.
Thinking about Ronan Browne and Peadar O'Loughlin, there was a video made of the entire Saturday night show at the St. Louis Tionol, and the sound there was wonderful... I wonder what happened to that one...
There was a discussion here waaaay back when about recording costs, I think... Here's a ballpark look.
For a good studio and engineer, a full-length project for CD release, for a trad duet, trio, quartet, who just go in and record, then mix... I'd say... $1800 - 3000. Some folks will choose to use the services of a mastering engineer for $1000-1500. This can be a good thing to do, many of us do skip it.
The CDs themselves with the packaging, usually comes to between $1.25 and 2.50, depending on how elaborate the graphics and text (all that paper stuff) design is to duplicate. (The CDs and pkg are very inexpensive, it's the graphic stuff that takes time & money at this stage.) Add in $500 for the graphic designer.
It used to be that the real best deal was to order 1000 cds at once. The manufacturer -will- always make 1000 cds of your material. If you order less than that (usually 500), the "discount" your re-order, but what this amounts to is that you pay one-&-a-half times for the whole 1000 units...
Now, however, there are places who will sell smaller numbers ("CDs on demand) of cds packaged at pretty reasonable rates. I'm looking forward to the growth of these.
We ordered a thousand. Our cost, including studio time and engineer, was less than $5 each. We sent out about 200 for promotion to radio and places we wanted to play, magazines, newspapers, and online reviewers, etc., right away.
We sell them at $15 each when we play. Some of our session hosts want to sell them, so they have some in their pub/winery/coffeehouse/restaurant. Our butcher shop sold some! <GG> Our CDBaby website gets around 300-500 hits per month, and sales are around 3% of that. We signed up for "digital distribution" to mp3 download sites thru CDBaby and we have had some good sales there, but only from iTunes, tho 34 other sites took our album. CDBaby is a great site, great business. Light touch, completely helpful but unintrusive, and a good deal financially.
I've found, with all kinds of indie music, not just ITM, that if folks sell CDs for less than $15, especially if the CD is in a shop with other CDs, that the discount doesn't make more sales. Somehow folks have the idea that if it isn't the same price as the 'main line' products, it's less desirable. Some folks don't think that's true, but I've seen it over and over and over. The net effect of discounting is just giving away the difference, and it serves no purpose for the musicians.
The big boost we got was from Ossian USA. Charlie & Mary Lou heard the CD and asked to buy some at wholesale, and they gave us another list of radio and reviewers to send the CDs to, so there went another big batch. We've enjoyed some airplay and we have heard from folks, places and venues that we never expected, and have made some great new friends.
We had a tough time getting our CDs stocked in Ireland, a big wish we had, but when Shanna Quay had 'em in Adare, they did very well, and "charted" in IMM for quite a while. We don't have any there now, but I'd love to be in Custy's... and several other places I know. We talked with a couple of European distributors, but we just weren't up to the committment of having a distribution deal. We couldn't tour that much and we couldn't afford to make and ship that many disks.
I asked Ged Foley one time about how the Patrick Street and Celtic Fiddle Fest sold and he said, "Onesies and twos..." I thought that it would be more.
So... yeah, there are other reasons than income to do the thing. It's easy to spend $3k - 5k on an indie CD, but it's also easy to get the bulk of it back if you play a lot and sell them at performances.
There are a zillion ways to relate to a CD release, from full-on "I wanna be Famous" to giving the thing away and everything in between. And the marketplace and people's notions of their relationships to recorded music, are changing a lot, and all the time these days.
I hope that traditional artists do record their playing, and figure out ways to share the recordings with us in ways that work for them and for us. There are sure a lot of artists (most of whom most of you haven't heard of!) that I'd like to hear more from and more often. I could name names, but... <GGG>
Thanks,
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
Hark back to the cited quote from Junior Crehan, saying he hadn’t recorded because he “was never asked”.
It used to be that if a recording was issued, it was because someone besides the recorded musician thought that musician was good and ought to be heard in the world. Now it’s easy to self-issue CDs. Some are from credible bands and good musicians, others are from people who can only offer inadequate representations of the music they think they’re playing.
While we should know, intellectually, that many CDs are no more than “vanity publishing”, I think many of us are caught between the old and new paradigm. Despite knowing that anyone can issue a CD, we still feel having a CD of one’s playing is some kind of proof of artistic merit.
It’s hard to say whether the greater hazard is to the buying public or to the self-deluded musican.
Unless you're really big, it seems to be that the CD promotes your tour, not the other way around. I have it on reasonably good authourity that Eliza Carthy gets no return from her CDs. Folk musicians make their money from playing gigs, not selling CDs, unless they're hugely popular.
The <GG>s are grins. I don't use emoticons, so I denote the degree of levity with the number of Gs.
Bogeyman makes a good point, but the whole process of 'democratization' of media (as with so many other things in this time) turns the asylum over to the inmates, the gov't over to the peasants and the music over to anyone who wants to make it. Indeed, between the old and new paradigms.
The vast majority of music CDs made in the world now are vanity products, my own included. Most of the musicians I've spoken with about this trust the audiences to let 'em know, in one way or another, how they've done with it. I know that we've learned a lot from people who have bought our CDs.
One part of the old paradigm came to be a lot of layers of record label functionaries between the audiences and the musicians. The new paradigm certainly does without that, and that's one part of it that I enjoy.
I just read in IMM about how the Green Linnet catalog had been purchased and will be reissued by Digital Media Corp for downloads and by Compass Records as CDs. Good news. I'm sure that the Compass folks will be very good arbiters of what music is of the quality to be distributed by their company.
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
Eliza Carthy is only one economic model. Her albums usually have lots of musicians, which probably means lots of expensive studio time, etc. They are released on labels and sold through "traditional" distribution channels. Everybody takes a cut. Very little gets back to the artist.
Most folk and trad musicians aren't so "lucky". Minimally produced CDs, self-released, sold from the stage and through a few websites and in a few mom-and-pop stores, are a different model.
I like the idea that more and more we will be able to hear each others' home recordings. We will quickly skip away from the ones we don't like after a note or two, but get the chance to hear from people who perhaps don't consider themselves to be good enough for a "professional" recording.... but we might think they are! I have heard so many good Irish musicians, particularly in Ireland, and the standard of playing is really so high now that I'm sure many, many excellent musicians wouldn't record unless it was easy (home recording), and the advance of shared info is great. There's also that saying which I can't remember about learning more from the un-wise or something (!) too. (We can learn from the wise too.)
less recorded musicians-why?
less recorded musicians-why?
Are there many well known irish trad guitar players out there that have not recorded a whole lot?
For example. I have become a massive fan of Paul McSherrys guitar playing but can only find 3 albums he has previously recorded on. I am sure he has done a lot of albums.
There must be alot of well known musicians that have not been on alot of recordings.
Why is this?
Probably a silly question.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by eurbanjo
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
One name that springs to mind is that of Mick O´Connor.
Although better known for his banjo playing, he is capable of really sensitive accompaniment of either singers or other musicians, on the guitar - probably something to do with the fact that he knows a vast number of tunes note for note.
And yet very little recorded material.
Another one is Dympna O´Sullivan, one of the best concertina players in Ireland in my opinion, and again, very little on record.
As to why this is so, only the musicians themselves can give a valid answer to that question. Perhaps it has something to do with their personalities.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by murfbox
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
In January I got to hear Dympna play in a session. I either asked when she'd make a CD or said I hoped she'd have a CD when I return next year. As I recall, she laughed a bit but didn't say anything.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Fair dues to them!! Why should people make CD's? Is that the mark of having made it these days. If so, I'm a long... long....long way off!!!!
Take Joe Cooley, one of the great box players - very little recorded material of him in his heyday and yet most people would have a grasp of his substance despite this paucity. Maybe less is more if you know what I mean....
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by the wounded hussar
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
i dont think it means they have made it as a musician if they have recorded.
I am simply asking the question as I wouid like to hear more of their music and as I dont drive or get to travel to different areas to hear them, The best solution is usually to purchase their albums as this is the closest I can get to hearing the real thing. Alot of favourite musicians have never recorded.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by eurbanjo
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
There are probably many reasons, but making a CD is a lot of work, costs money, takes a fair amount of time, etc. Chances are you won't recoup what you've put into it. Some musicians may not have the energy for all that.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by stoner420
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
I was talking to Dympna this morning as it happens. I think like a good few people she's not really bothered about the whole thing and quite happy to play as she does.
Junior Crehan was once asked why he didn't record. 'I was never asked' he replied. Why was Martin Rochford never put on a serious lp/CD? Who would have made him? A lot of talking had to go into convincing Brid O Donohue that she should put down some and she did but in the end only for her own good reasons.
Dympna by the way has tracks on the Ceol na mBan CD, on Kitty Hayes' first one, on the Lisseycasey GAA CD, on the Sanctuary sessions.
Another consideration is that in order to sell a reasonable number of CDs you will have to actively promote it, do gigs put yourself in the spotlight. if you don't you'll be stuck with a load of boxes full of CDs in your attic. And some people just can't be bothered to put themselves in the limelight.
In fairness: CD sales was part of the conversation this morning.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by kilfarboy
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Thats a good point. I hadnt thought of that. I suppose there is a large chance people can get ripped off if they go with a record company also.
Personally I would like if the less recorded musicians , did get a chance to have their music left after they are gone.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by eurbanjo
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
There is an awful lot more to Traditional Irish music than what is out there for sale.The pile of c.d`s in the corner is only the tip of the iceberg. Not necessarily the cream of the milk either.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by cos
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
With a tip o' the hat to Cos, there's a lot more to -all- good music than is recorded... I think that's a good thing...
It's a funny notion that someone has 'made it' or is 'good enough' to record. I've heard that for decades, and the idea of someone approving of a player enough to 'allow' or 'invite' them to record has destroyed a whole lot of very talented players who hung their hopes on some such notion of success.
On the bright side, perhaps... I was talking with an audio guy in Ireland in '04 and I asked him how business was in recording music. He said that fewer and fewer folks could make a living at it because everyone had a studio in their computer anyway and were recording to everything from phones to iPods. <GG>
Aside from making it difficult for the professional recording studios, this spread of 'personal recording' devices means that the great players of this and future times will probably be recorded informally and the recordings will be passed around thru networks and friends.
So there's perhaps a -better- way for players to be widely heard, without all the baggage and expense of the commercial recording & distribution methods that dominated
the last half of the 20th century.
For my part, the commercial model of "record labels" can't die fast enough, and I've enjoyed making, listening to and collecting independent artists' CDs.
We made one because audiences asked us for one. At the time, it was more feasible than just posting mp3s to a website or any other more direct distribution method, and it was at sessions and our trio gigs where folks wanted them.
I think that new conventions of etiquette will form around recording artists in sessions or in performances. I record stuff informally sometimes and I've found players' views of being recorded to vary widely, as do their views of how the results might be shared. It's a good subject and there will be good discussions to come.
Thanks,
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
This is a really interesting discussion. eurbanjo has a very reasonable desire to hear “less commercial” musicians on CD (please note quotes – I’m not comfortable with the phrase but it’s useful shorthand). And there are equally reasonable answers as to why excellent players don’t record. All the more reason we should support, urge and encourage folks like stv culchie and kkrell in their efforts. Check out this thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10726
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by fidkid
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
I'd snap up a record of the Philadelphia/Connemara piper Sean McKiernan, who's one of the mightiest around now. He's simply reluctant I hear.
True that home studios have made it a no-brainer to make a good record anymore. Ronan Browne and Peadar O'Loughlin simply did their CD in Ronan's house. Good thing - feck studios!
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Yes Kevin but Ronan does have a full blown studio in the house.Breda Keville's was recorded there too. But sitting down in the kitchen with a few mics is a pefectly viable option although when you're working efficiently a studio (and it's cost) is not such a problem either.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by kilfarboy
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
I have no idea how much of a living even the most successful of trad musicians can make from recordings. To sell a lot of CD's it would seem like you'd have to give concerts and tour relentlessly. It would seem that having kids would put the brakes on that kind of activity too, especially for women of course. I've heard, anecdotally, that some really successful, sought after players, like Liz Carroll, Josephine Marsh, Verena Commins, to name a few, have had a hiatus from recording for this reason. I sure wouldn't mind getting another Verena Commins / Julie Langan CD.
More than once I have had local musicians I know try to give me a CD for free from their pile at home when I asked to buy one; I always insist on paying full price for these. This makes me suspect that it's not a money making enterprise, but more purely an artisitic activity...?
It's amazing what a strong impact CD's, like the Commins / Langan CD, have had on the local session here, though the CD came in the wake of a live performance tour (which I didn't hear, but session leaders here did); so it's hard to say what impact the CD's alone would have.
Great topic, as for better or worse, CD's have become such a big part of how the music moves. It happens, but it's rare that I learn a tune from another player, without the support of a recording.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
The cost of time and money has been mentioned already -- although as has also been noted, given advancements in technology and other factors it's possible to do a pretty good job on your own.
But one thing I don't think has been mentioned as a reason why some people don't record: They simply don't want to. The process of recording, of having to perch in front of a microphone and wait for "tape rolling" (or its modern-day, digital-era equivalent), is anathema for them. They prefer their music in the context of _performance_, formal or informal, and feel that a recording simply does not effectively capture or convey what they do.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by sts
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Whether or not a recording makes money is highly variable. If you keep recording costs down and tour in support of a CD, it can do very well. If not, you can wind up with a million seller (a million in the cellar).
Edel Fox and Ronan O'Flaherty went through the first 1000 copies of their superb CD in about a month. I'm sure there's lots of promo copies in that run, but still...say they sold 700 at an average price of $15 (they sold for $20 at many of their shows, but some venues take a cut, and retail takes a cut), that's over $10,000. The production is very simple, so they've probably broken even in a month. If they continue at half that pace for the next four months and a quarter of that for the following eight months, that's about $42,000, minus manufacturing costs of maybe $4000. That's about $19,000 each for a year, but that will require plenty of touring.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Thanks for the good word, fidkid!
Eoin O'Neill told me once that the best Irish music of the 21st century would be made, and recorded in kitchens, and that he didn't think that he'd make any more studio records at all.
Now, I think studios definitely have their place. <GG> I spent 30 years working in 'em so I must have liked 'em ok... and I still do. But I've put more time and money in the last year into tools that will allow me to make high quality kitchen/pub recordings than I have stuff for the studio itself.
Thinking about Ronan Browne and Peadar O'Loughlin, there was a video made of the entire Saturday night show at the St. Louis Tionol, and the sound there was wonderful... I wonder what happened to that one...
There was a discussion here waaaay back when about recording costs, I think... Here's a ballpark look.
For a good studio and engineer, a full-length project for CD release, for a trad duet, trio, quartet, who just go in and record, then mix... I'd say... $1800 - 3000. Some folks will choose to use the services of a mastering engineer for $1000-1500. This can be a good thing to do, many of us do skip it.
The CDs themselves with the packaging, usually comes to between $1.25 and 2.50, depending on how elaborate the graphics and text (all that paper stuff) design is to duplicate. (The CDs and pkg are very inexpensive, it's the graphic stuff that takes time & money at this stage.) Add in $500 for the graphic designer.
It used to be that the real best deal was to order 1000 cds at once. The manufacturer -will- always make 1000 cds of your material. If you order less than that (usually 500), the "discount" your re-order, but what this amounts to is that you pay one-&-a-half times for the whole 1000 units...
Now, however, there are places who will sell smaller numbers ("CDs on demand) of cds packaged at pretty reasonable rates. I'm looking forward to the growth of these.
We ordered a thousand. Our cost, including studio time and engineer, was less than $5 each. We sent out about 200 for promotion to radio and places we wanted to play, magazines, newspapers, and online reviewers, etc., right away.
We sell them at $15 each when we play. Some of our session hosts want to sell them, so they have some in their pub/winery/coffeehouse/restaurant. Our butcher shop sold some! <GG> Our CDBaby website gets around 300-500 hits per month, and sales are around 3% of that. We signed up for "digital distribution" to mp3 download sites thru CDBaby and we have had some good sales there, but only from iTunes, tho 34 other sites took our album. CDBaby is a great site, great business. Light touch, completely helpful but unintrusive, and a good deal financially.
I've found, with all kinds of indie music, not just ITM, that if folks sell CDs for less than $15, especially if the CD is in a shop with other CDs, that the discount doesn't make more sales. Somehow folks have the idea that if it isn't the same price as the 'main line' products, it's less desirable. Some folks don't think that's true, but I've seen it over and over and over. The net effect of discounting is just giving away the difference, and it serves no purpose for the musicians.
The big boost we got was from Ossian USA. Charlie & Mary Lou heard the CD and asked to buy some at wholesale, and they gave us another list of radio and reviewers to send the CDs to, so there went another big batch. We've enjoyed some airplay and we have heard from folks, places and venues that we never expected, and have made some great new friends.
We had a tough time getting our CDs stocked in Ireland, a big wish we had, but when Shanna Quay had 'em in Adare, they did very well, and "charted" in IMM for quite a while. We don't have any there now, but I'd love to be in Custy's... and several other places I know. We talked with a couple of European distributors, but we just weren't up to the committment of having a distribution deal. We couldn't tour that much and we couldn't afford to make and ship that many disks.
I asked Ged Foley one time about how the Patrick Street and Celtic Fiddle Fest sold and he said, "Onesies and twos..." I thought that it would be more.
So... yeah, there are other reasons than income to do the thing. It's easy to spend $3k - 5k on an indie CD, but it's also easy to get the bulk of it back if you play a lot and sell them at performances.
There are a zillion ways to relate to a CD release, from full-on "I wanna be Famous" to giving the thing away and everything in between. And the marketplace and people's notions of their relationships to recorded music, are changing a lot, and all the time these days.
I hope that traditional artists do record their playing, and figure out ways to share the recordings with us in ways that work for them and for us. There are sure a lot of artists (most of whom most of you haven't heard of!) that I'd like to hear more from and more often. I could name names, but... <GGG>
Thanks,
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Interesting note/article, stv. Thanks for that, but......
what does "<GG>" mean?
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by oldstrings
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Here’s something to think about in regard to CDs:
Hark back to the cited quote from Junior Crehan, saying he hadn’t recorded because he “was never asked”.
It used to be that if a recording was issued, it was because someone besides the recorded musician thought that musician was good and ought to be heard in the world. Now it’s easy to self-issue CDs. Some are from credible bands and good musicians, others are from people who can only offer inadequate representations of the music they think they’re playing.
While we should know, intellectually, that many CDs are no more than “vanity publishing”, I think many of us are caught between the old and new paradigm. Despite knowing that anyone can issue a CD, we still feel having a CD of one’s playing is some kind of proof of artistic merit.
It’s hard to say whether the greater hazard is to the buying public or to the self-deluded musican.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by bogeyman
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Unless you're really big, it seems to be that the CD promotes your tour, not the other way around. I have it on reasonably good authourity that Eliza Carthy gets no return from her CDs. Folk musicians make their money from playing gigs, not selling CDs, unless they're hugely popular.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by Andy V
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
The <GG>s are grins. I don't use emoticons, so I denote the degree of levity with the number of Gs.
Bogeyman makes a good point, but the whole process of 'democratization' of media (as with so many other things in this time) turns the asylum over to the inmates, the gov't over to the peasants and the music over to anyone who wants to make it. Indeed, between the old and new paradigms.
The vast majority of music CDs made in the world now are vanity products, my own included. Most of the musicians I've spoken with about this trust the audiences to let 'em know, in one way or another, how they've done with it. I know that we've learned a lot from people who have bought our CDs.
One part of the old paradigm came to be a lot of layers of record label functionaries between the audiences and the musicians. The new paradigm certainly does without that, and that's one part of it that I enjoy.
I just read in IMM about how the Green Linnet catalog had been purchased and will be reissued by Digital Media Corp for downloads and by Compass Records as CDs. Good news. I'm sure that the Compass folks will be very good arbiters of what music is of the quality to be distributed by their company.
stv
The Culchies' CD, "Bruscar Bán," is available at
http;//www.OssianUSA.com
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by stv culchie
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
Eliza Carthy is only one economic model. Her albums usually have lots of musicians, which probably means lots of expensive studio time, etc. They are released on labels and sold through "traditional" distribution channels. Everybody takes a cut. Very little gets back to the artist.
Most folk and trad musicians aren't so "lucky". Minimally produced CDs, self-released, sold from the stage and through a few websites and in a few mom-and-pop stores, are a different model.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: less recorded musicians-why?
I like the idea that more and more we will be able to hear each others' home recordings. We will quickly skip away from the ones we don't like after a note or two, but get the chance to hear from people who perhaps don't consider themselves to be good enough for a "professional" recording.... but we might think they are! I have heard so many good Irish musicians, particularly in Ireland, and the standard of playing is really so high now that I'm sure many, many excellent musicians wouldn't record unless it was easy (home recording), and the advance of shared info is great. There's also that saying which I can't remember about learning more from the un-wise or something (!) too. (We can learn from the wise too.)
# Posted on August 16th 2006 by Frezz