We've discussed this before but how can you possibly please everyone, especially singers, at a mixed session?
Either these can become a complete rabble with musicians and singers competing to "get their songs and tunes in". Just a free for all where the most pushy rather than the better performers get most limelight. Or at the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the "Circle of Death" scenario where everyone has to wait their turn.
Last night, I went along to support a local monthly session where I live. It's always been run the latter way but, lately, it's becoming " too healthy" for it's own good with about 16 performers turning up last night. So, everyone was having to wait that bit longer to get their five minutes in the limelight :-| . As for myself and most of the other musicians, this didn't pose too much of a problem but the singers were getting rather irritated. One of their main gripes was that if one of us started a set of tunes, the other musicians would join in thus we were always getting "extra shots" by their logic.... and we even accompanied some of the songs...shock , horror...so they felt quite hard done by.
The last straw was when one of us played a couple of very well known hornpipes. Of course, we all joined in with these but I, rather naughtily I admit, carried on with a third one which is extremely common in that particular set. No great harm there and I thought that I was just keeping the momentum going. However, the singers didn't see it that way. The guy who was due to sing next muttered something about "If the instrumentalists are going to play out of turn, I'll not bother" and he along with four others "took the huff" and went to the bar. Thereafter, another singer stormed out half way through his song because he was "distracted" by some people talking at the other end of the bar.
So, not one of the better nights but the beer was good.
You're right and I normally wouldn't choose to visit something like this if it wasn't on my doorstep..about 2mins walk...and it's only once a month.
Some of these singers travel several miles for a song though.
"So, not one of the better nights but the beer was good." - perhaps you should just find another bar that serves that beer, John?
"The Circle of Death" - what a great expression. Sounds just like most of those 'organised & MC'd' Comhaltas sessions I ever attended!
I can't understand why musicians attend nights like that, more than once. It reminds me of that old adage - once is a mistake, more than once is just stupidity! Sorry John, no offence intended, but when we all, I think, get involved in this wonderful world of TM, not only for the sheer joy the playing of this music gives us but also that great feeling of camaraderie when in amongst our musical friends at a normal, healthy session, what in the name of bejayzus posseses folks to attend a night like the one you describe above.
Yes, that was my main point. I like listening to singers and songs too but it's probably better to have normal music sessions and separate gatherings of singers. Then I can go along there if I'm in the right mood and listen to the better singers and/or even sing a song myself as I occasionally do.
Also, I've no problem with the occasional song in a tune session but attempts to "mix" both always seem doomed to failure.
I probably will go back though as some nights aren't quite as bad as this. When there's just about eight or so, it's a lot more relaxed.
I also feel obliged to support things happening "on my doorstep" so to speak but, perhaps, some of us could start a tune session instead.
I thought singers *are* musicians...? The ones I know are, anyway. They play guitar and mandolin and tin whistle and can play along just fine with the tunes, and then throw in a song or two as the mood strikes. Perhaps the singers you met weren't quite laid back enough?
I think songs are a very important part of the tradition. They tell stories and give a perspective and make me laugh...sitting in a pub in Edinburgh with a big man leading the whole crowd through the verses of "Scots Wha Hae"---it's powerful stuff, I tell ya. A few of those sentimental rabble-rousers and I'm ready to go back to my pint and hear the guitars and the fiddles again.
I think what you want in a case like yours John is someone in the session who has the strengh to be able to take control and even dictate . . the sessions running order which is fair and reasonable to everyone. It seems to me there were too many indians and not enough chiefs . . or it might be the other way round.
John, I enjoy a good song too & Mrs Ptarmigan & myself used to attend a 'Singers Session' over here, which consisted of over two hours of unaccompanied songs, with a short 10 min. break in the middle, when any musicians present were 'allowed' to play a couple of sets of tunes.
Like any session, music or song, you would hear things you really enjoyed & others you weren't too keen on, but I have found that a very different atmosphere prevails at a singing session, compared to the usual music session.
I like to think of a singing session as being akin to a bit of gentle, relaxed Pony Trekking on a warm summer's afternoon, while a music session is often more like a few laps of Stock-Car Racing!
An odd song during a music session can be great but an odd set of tunes at a singing session doesn't ever really work - does it?
Of course, many singers play musical instruments too and even tunes but most of them were intent on doing solo performances last night. Also, you have to be very careful in their company and not differentiate between singers and musicians. "Singers are musicians too, you know. The human voice is the original musical instrument" and so on.
I'm afraid there are those who would like to take more control there but their views would differ from mine. They would organise it so that all the singers would get a song each but they would also allow one set of tunes in the round which all of us "musicians" would allowed to play. Perhaps, we could even get away with playing a solo piece as long as nobody else joined in!!!
Surely John, in the scheme of things, it'd then be fairer if every musician were also allowed to start a set of tunes, OK - so the musicians who knew the tunes would all join in each time, but then don't the singers also join in on the chorus of every song they know too?
I should also add that you can get some strange rules when someone takes charge. At Haddington Folk Club, which I avoid, you are allowed to nominate someone to "take your turn" if you wish to sit out a song or tune, go to the loo or whatever. Some circles will go "anti clockwise" and others will let you do two numbers in row!!!
As I said earlier, you can also get some "mixed" sessions where there is just a free for all or absolute chaos.
I visited such a session the other week where Kenny and I caught each other out. He had advised not to go as it was apparently the "Session from Hell" and I promised to heed his advice. However, we both turned up there later on "out of curiosity".
It all depends so much how these things have developed. Has the session in question always been in this sort of format?
Speaking as a singer I go to song sessions, tune sessions, mixed session and a group that meet round people's houses and sing the sort of songs that would get us drummed out of most sessions/folk clubs. I think that I would loose a lot in relation to my connection with the music if I didn't get to sit with the musicians and I am prone to the odd lilt or diddle. To tell the truth I get more of a buzz when good musicians appreciate what I do than other singers and I do it because i want to be part of the tradition.
It all comes down to respecting the format of the session that you are in. The main ones that I go to in Sheffield, a few friends and I have set up and I tend to sing three or four songs in an evening among a lot of tune - sometime accompanied , sometimes not ( sometimes they disappear to the loo). We welcome people in but a large influx of either singers or musicians who knew none of the wide range of tunes that are played might cause us a problem. When I am traveling I will go into sessions, ask if they are open and ask if they mind a singer sitting in. In places where I am not know I will not sing until i'm asked but usually if they have asked once they will ask again.
It's more or less always been in this format and when there's just a few it can work quite well...although too few doesn't make a good atmosphere.
Actually, some of the grumpier ones last night prefer it when it's quiet as they get " more kicks at the ball" so to speak. However, it's less of a problem for players as there may well be more tune sets to join in and other people to help out with the sets. That seems to annoy the singers, unfortunately.
And another thing---don't forget that many Irish and Scottish songs are hundreds of years old, as old as many of the tunes. They have their place!
I guess I just haven't seen the antagonism between instruments and singing---I really think they belong together. One at a time, perhaps, but don't you go into a pub to listen as well as play?
I'm afraid that the rules here regarding singers and tunesmiths tends to be somewhat rigid - generally speaking Ptarmie's adage of oil and water holds true.
Singers want to sing their songs and musos their tunes. An odd song during a session is usually well appreciated but if it's singing you want then organise a singers' session. That's usually what happens at fleadhs and festivals over here. Usually one venue will be for singers only - tunes being practically a declaration of war.
And it also has some nuances - singers will happily sing a 45 verse song and the rest will listen in quiet respect and admiration - do that in a session and you are asking for trouble!! So even where is a song is 'allowed' there is the expectation that it wont last longer than a set of tunes - 5 minutes max.
John J, You say that when you played a third hornpipe, five singers left in a huff. It seems to me that the solution to this problem, is.......more hornpipes!!!!!
Breandan I think its a shame that there is such a strong split and the only place I have found that to be the case is in Dublin. There again I can't really claim to be widely travelled but where I have been I have been warmly welcomed.
Any singer who sings long ballads in sessions needs to be told of the error of their ways unless its been particularly requested from the assembled musicians. 5 minutes? - Anywhere new it has to be about 3 minutes - just enough to show what you can do and possibly leave them wanting more.
Admittedly I have not been a participant for long and I’m certainly not well traveled in the genre but around here, at least at the sessions I participate in on a routine basis these types of conflicts don’t seem to pop up. Often times at the end of the night I hear apologies for not asking me for more song. I simple respond that things developed the way they did and I always have just as good, and sometimes a better, time simply accompanying the tunes. Sometimes I am just not in the right mood to sing and feel somewhat awkward declining. I’ve also visited a session for the first time and have been asked; “I see you play the guitar, do you sing as well, and if so would you give us a song?” Now admittedly I do not know what folks say behind my back but I have never been made to feel unwelcome at any session including the few I have had the pleasure of participating in Ireland.
It seems to this neophyte that songs and tunes, or in the interest of not alienating anyone tunes and songs, are equally as strong a part of the tradition. However we all need to be sensitive to each others wants and desires when playing music together. How could we possibly expect to blend together in the way the tunes and songs intend for us to if there is such animosity and self serving antics from both camps?
John J how can you abide such an evening? what you describe sounds to me more like Butlin's than a session. Next time somebody tells you what to do in a pub, ask them whether it's their name over the door.
It's times like this that I wish I had an anonymous user name, so I could tell stories about horrible sessions I have attended. But since I lack plausible deniability, I will restrain myself.
Re: neophytes who do not understand the antagonism between instrumentalists and singers.
Wait.
Just keep learning the craft of playing irish tunes well on your particular instrument. Keep listening to great recordings of tradtional music. Get yourself "stuck in" to playing at sessions where tunes predominate and everyone plays together the majority of the time. Start to really, really enjoy the craft of learning new tunes, variations, settings...develop the ability to recognize the good stuff when you hear it.
I am spending a great amount time learning the accompaniment to new tunes all the time as well as learning new was to accompany the tunes I am familiar with and as I said I thoroughly enjoy a night of just tunes. I do in fact think I know the “good stuff” when I hear it. I am trying to learn to play tunes on the banjo but given my circumstances it is very difficult to develop the dexterity necessary to do so. So if I am able to at all it will certainly take a great deal of time before I am even remotely competent. In the mean time I thoroughly enjoy participating in the music to the extent that I do and I have received nothing but encouragement to continue. I also have many years experience of playing American tunes in group settings with friends as well as strangers. Also I am currently participating in sessions where tunes predominate almost to the point of exclusivity, again as I mentioned.
Now I can’t really say that I would enjoy an entire evening of song at a session though and that’s why I don’t frequent song circles or singing sessions. So I am not real sure as to your point unless of course it is to attempt to dissuade me from singing, or to suggest that singing is not a part of the tradition, or that one can only participate in the playing of the traditional music of Ireland if they are indeed only playing tunes and then only play the melody. If it is either of these I would say that I summarily dismiss your position as rather short sided.
My point was simply that it seems to me that song is indeed a part of the tradition and I’ve never witnessed such an event as John described in the sessions around here. This is not to say that a night of just singing would be tolerated at these sessions but a few songs seem always to be appreciated by both the musicians participating as well as the folks listening. I suppose if I were exposed to such behavior on an on going basis or for that matter as an isolated circumstance that has the potential of being repeated, I would feel the same animosities but then again I don’t know that I would continue to participate with folks more intent on their own performance then the music itself. This seems to me to be just the opposite of the intent of the music itself and the driving force behind the behavior John described. As has been pointed out there are many great singers that also play the tunes and simply not allowing them to share their craft at a session to me seems a bit arrogant and selfish. Just my way of seeing things.
I am laughing my AO as that is exactly what I envisioned when I re-read the post after it was made and recognized my mistake. Although I never broke 80 I have danced around the lower 80's in my day. I haven't been on a golf course in over twenty years so I would suppose I would have one of the lowest costs per stroke out there today!
Tunes, Songs and Dance. They all belong together in the tradition but the dance part has to some extent gone its own way in many areas. Song also is becoming increasingly a separate thing in the 'No-tunes singing session'.
I am not commenting on the right and wrong of this; just to say that the circumstances of these sessions are nothing like the original sessions that were much more community based, in a house or a local village pub.
Where the session is community based it is much easier to expect it to be inclusive of song and dance. Where people come together, sometimes travelling distances to play a few tunes during a limited time period - the desire is more focused on the selfish aim of doing what they set out to do.
The songs then become an intrusion.........maybe.
Over four decades of sessioneering, I have lost count of the number of previously happily-run sessions, that got taken over by guitarists / singers, resulting in the songs getting further and further away from anything bordering on folk. As always, musicians ended up leaving and starting up elsewhere.
(I am not suggesting that folk sessions should only feature folk, but when the emphasis is on Country & Western, a folk session ceases to be one)
I'm interested that you distinguish between musicians and singer/guitarists (personally I neither sing nor strum).
Whilst I dislike the term "folk" I believe that the traditional value of a session lies in the social mechanics of the event itself rather than the particular musical content. At least, so far as the anarchic, un-managed sessions that I attend are concerned. That is to say, sessions where tolerance and infomal concensus are the rule, rather than diktat .
"John, I enjoy a good song too & Mrs Ptarmigan & myself used to attend a 'Singers Session' over here, which consisted of over two hours of unaccompanied songs"
Another night at the Circle of Death
Another night at the Circle of Death
We've discussed this before but how can you possibly please everyone, especially singers, at a mixed session?
Either these can become a complete rabble with musicians and singers competing to "get their songs and tunes in". Just a free for all where the most pushy rather than the better performers get most limelight. Or at the opposite end of the spectrum, we have the "Circle of Death" scenario where everyone has to wait their turn.
Last night, I went along to support a local monthly session where I live. It's always been run the latter way but, lately, it's becoming " too healthy" for it's own good with about 16 performers turning up last night. So, everyone was having to wait that bit longer to get their five minutes in the limelight :-| . As for myself and most of the other musicians, this didn't pose too much of a problem but the singers were getting rather irritated. One of their main gripes was that if one of us started a set of tunes, the other musicians would join in thus we were always getting "extra shots" by their logic.... and we even accompanied some of the songs...shock , horror...so they felt quite hard done by.
The last straw was when one of us played a couple of very well known hornpipes. Of course, we all joined in with these but I, rather naughtily I admit, carried on with a third one which is extremely common in that particular set. No great harm there and I thought that I was just keeping the momentum going. However, the singers didn't see it that way. The guy who was due to sing next muttered something about "If the instrumentalists are going to play out of turn, I'll not bother" and he along with four others "took the huff" and went to the bar. Thereafter, another singer stormed out half way through his song because he was "distracted" by some people talking at the other end of the bar.
So, not one of the better nights but the beer was good.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
So why bother?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Primadonnas.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
You're right and I normally wouldn't choose to visit something like this if it wasn't on my doorstep..about 2mins walk...and it's only once a month.
Some of these singers travel several miles for a song though.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
"So, not one of the better nights but the beer was good." - perhaps you should just find another bar that serves that beer, John?
"The Circle of Death" - what a great expression. Sounds just like most of those 'organised & MC'd' Comhaltas sessions I ever attended!
I can't understand why musicians attend nights like that, more than once. It reminds me of that old adage - once is a mistake, more than once is just stupidity! Sorry John, no offence intended, but when we all, I think, get involved in this wonderful world of TM, not only for the sheer joy the playing of this music gives us but also that great feeling of camaraderie when in amongst our musical friends at a normal, healthy session, what in the name of bejayzus posseses folks to attend a night like the one you describe above.
Singers & Musicians - Oil & Water John, ..........Oil & Water!
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Yes, that was my main point. I like listening to singers and songs too but it's probably better to have normal music sessions and separate gatherings of singers. Then I can go along there if I'm in the right mood and listen to the better singers and/or even sing a song myself as I occasionally do.
Also, I've no problem with the occasional song in a tune session but attempts to "mix" both always seem doomed to failure.
I probably will go back though as some nights aren't quite as bad as this. When there's just about eight or so, it's a lot more relaxed.
I also feel obliged to support things happening "on my doorstep" so to speak but, perhaps, some of us could start a tune session instead.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
I thought singers *are* musicians...? The ones I know are, anyway. They play guitar and mandolin and tin whistle and can play along just fine with the tunes, and then throw in a song or two as the mood strikes. Perhaps the singers you met weren't quite laid back enough?
I think songs are a very important part of the tradition. They tell stories and give a perspective and make me laugh...sitting in a pub in Edinburgh with a big man leading the whole crowd through the verses of "Scots Wha Hae"---it's powerful stuff, I tell ya. A few of those sentimental rabble-rousers and I'm ready to go back to my pint and hear the guitars and the fiddles again.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
I think what you want in a case like yours John is someone in the session who has the strengh to be able to take control and even dictate . . the sessions running order which is fair and reasonable to everyone. It seems to me there were too many indians and not enough chiefs . . or it might be the other way round.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Justintime
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
John, I enjoy a good song too & Mrs Ptarmigan & myself used to attend a 'Singers Session' over here, which consisted of over two hours of unaccompanied songs, with a short 10 min. break in the middle, when any musicians present were 'allowed' to play a couple of sets of tunes.
Like any session, music or song, you would hear things you really enjoyed & others you weren't too keen on, but I have found that a very different atmosphere prevails at a singing session, compared to the usual music session.
I like to think of a singing session as being akin to a bit of gentle, relaxed Pony Trekking on a warm summer's afternoon, while a music session is often more like a few laps of Stock-Car Racing!
An odd song during a music session can be great but an odd set of tunes at a singing session doesn't ever really work - does it?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Of course, many singers play musical instruments too and even tunes but most of them were intent on doing solo performances last night. Also, you have to be very careful in their company and not differentiate between singers and musicians. "Singers are musicians too, you know. The human voice is the original musical instrument" and so on.
I'm afraid there are those who would like to take more control there but their views would differ from mine. They would organise it so that all the singers would get a song each but they would also allow one set of tunes in the round which all of us "musicians" would allowed to play. Perhaps, we could even get away with playing a solo piece as long as nobody else joined in!!!
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Surely John, in the scheme of things, it'd then be fairer if every musician were also allowed to start a set of tunes, OK - so the musicians who knew the tunes would all join in each time, but then don't the singers also join in on the chorus of every song they know too?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
I should also add that you can get some strange rules when someone takes charge. At Haddington Folk Club, which I avoid, you are allowed to nominate someone to "take your turn" if you wish to sit out a song or tune, go to the loo or whatever. Some circles will go "anti clockwise" and others will let you do two numbers in row!!!
As I said earlier, you can also get some "mixed" sessions where there is just a free for all or absolute chaos.
I visited such a session the other week where Kenny and I caught each other out. He had advised not to go as it was apparently the "Session from Hell" and I promised to heed his advice. However, we both turned up there later on "out of curiosity".
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Dick, re your last comment. That's my view too but most singers don't see it that way.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
It all depends so much how these things have developed. Has the session in question always been in this sort of format?
Speaking as a singer I go to song sessions, tune sessions, mixed session and a group that meet round people's houses and sing the sort of songs that would get us drummed out of most sessions/folk clubs. I think that I would loose a lot in relation to my connection with the music if I didn't get to sit with the musicians and I am prone to the odd lilt or diddle. To tell the truth I get more of a buzz when good musicians appreciate what I do than other singers and I do it because i want to be part of the tradition.
It all comes down to respecting the format of the session that you are in. The main ones that I go to in Sheffield, a few friends and I have set up and I tend to sing three or four songs in an evening among a lot of tune - sometime accompanied , sometimes not ( sometimes they disappear to the loo). We welcome people in but a large influx of either singers or musicians who knew none of the wide range of tunes that are played might cause us a problem. When I am traveling I will go into sessions, ask if they are open and ask if they mind a singer sitting in. In places where I am not know I will not sing until i'm asked but usually if they have asked once they will ask again.
J
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by jfother
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
It's more or less always been in this format and when there's just a few it can work quite well...although too few doesn't make a good atmosphere.
Actually, some of the grumpier ones last night prefer it when it's quiet as they get " more kicks at the ball" so to speak. However, it's less of a problem for players as there may well be more tune sets to join in and other people to help out with the sets. That seems to annoy the singers, unfortunately.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
And another thing---don't forget that many Irish and Scottish songs are hundreds of years old, as old as many of the tunes. They have their place!
I guess I just haven't seen the antagonism between instruments and singing---I really think they belong together. One at a time, perhaps, but don't you go into a pub to listen as well as play?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by kennedy
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
I'm afraid that the rules here regarding singers and tunesmiths tends to be somewhat rigid - generally speaking Ptarmie's adage of oil and water holds true.
Singers want to sing their songs and musos their tunes. An odd song during a session is usually well appreciated but if it's singing you want then organise a singers' session. That's usually what happens at fleadhs and festivals over here. Usually one venue will be for singers only - tunes being practically a declaration of war.
And it also has some nuances - singers will happily sing a 45 verse song and the rest will listen in quiet respect and admiration - do that in a session and you are asking for trouble!! So even where is a song is 'allowed' there is the expectation that it wont last longer than a set of tunes - 5 minutes max.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by breandan
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
John J, You say that when you played a third hornpipe, five singers left in a huff. It seems to me that the solution to this problem, is.......more hornpipes!!!!!
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Breandan I think its a shame that there is such a strong split and the only place I have found that to be the case is in Dublin. There again I can't really claim to be widely travelled but where I have been I have been warmly welcomed.
Any singer who sings long ballads in sessions needs to be told of the error of their ways unless its been particularly requested from the assembled musicians. 5 minutes? - Anywhere new it has to be about 3 minutes - just enough to show what you can do and possibly leave them wanting more.
J
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by jfother
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Rules, Rules, Rules!
Admittedly I have not been a participant for long and I’m certainly not well traveled in the genre but around here, at least at the sessions I participate in on a routine basis these types of conflicts don’t seem to pop up. Often times at the end of the night I hear apologies for not asking me for more song. I simple respond that things developed the way they did and I always have just as good, and sometimes a better, time simply accompanying the tunes. Sometimes I am just not in the right mood to sing and feel somewhat awkward declining. I’ve also visited a session for the first time and have been asked; “I see you play the guitar, do you sing as well, and if so would you give us a song?” Now admittedly I do not know what folks say behind my back but I have never been made to feel unwelcome at any session including the few I have had the pleasure of participating in Ireland.
It seems to this neophyte that songs and tunes, or in the interest of not alienating anyone tunes and songs, are equally as strong a part of the tradition. However we all need to be sensitive to each others wants and desires when playing music together. How could we possibly expect to blend together in the way the tunes and songs intend for us to if there is such animosity and self serving antics from both camps?
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
If 5 singers leave in a huff, how many singers leave in a minute and a huff?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by GaryAMartin
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
John J how can you abide such an evening? what you describe sounds to me more like Butlin's than a session. Next time somebody tells you what to do in a pub, ask them whether it's their name over the door.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Gary, Ouch...............
It's times like this that I wish I had an anonymous user name, so I could tell stories about horrible sessions I have attended. But since I lack plausible deniability, I will restrain myself.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Re: neophytes who do not understand the antagonism between instrumentalists and singers.
Wait.
Just keep learning the craft of playing irish tunes well on your particular instrument. Keep listening to great recordings of tradtional music. Get yourself "stuck in" to playing at sessions where tunes predominate and everyone plays together the majority of the time. Start to really, really enjoy the craft of learning new tunes, variations, settings...develop the ability to recognize the good stuff when you hear it.
You'll see.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Hanley
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Cthuilleannpiper,
I am spending a great amount time learning the accompaniment to new tunes all the time as well as learning new was to accompany the tunes I am familiar with and as I said I thoroughly enjoy a night of just tunes. I do in fact think I know the “good stuff” when I hear it. I am trying to learn to play tunes on the banjo but given my circumstances it is very difficult to develop the dexterity necessary to do so. So if I am able to at all it will certainly take a great deal of time before I am even remotely competent. In the mean time I thoroughly enjoy participating in the music to the extent that I do and I have received nothing but encouragement to continue. I also have many years experience of playing American tunes in group settings with friends as well as strangers. Also I am currently participating in sessions where tunes predominate almost to the point of exclusivity, again as I mentioned.
Now I can’t really say that I would enjoy an entire evening of song at a session though and that’s why I don’t frequent song circles or singing sessions. So I am not real sure as to your point unless of course it is to attempt to dissuade me from singing, or to suggest that singing is not a part of the tradition, or that one can only participate in the playing of the traditional music of Ireland if they are indeed only playing tunes and then only play the melody. If it is either of these I would say that I summarily dismiss your position as rather short sided.
My point was simply that it seems to me that song is indeed a part of the tradition and I’ve never witnessed such an event as John described in the sessions around here. This is not to say that a night of just singing would be tolerated at these sessions but a few songs seem always to be appreciated by both the musicians participating as well as the folks listening. I suppose if I were exposed to such behavior on an on going basis or for that matter as an isolated circumstance that has the potential of being repeated, I would feel the same animosities but then again I don’t know that I would continue to participate with folks more intent on their own performance then the music itself. This seems to me to be just the opposite of the intent of the music itself and the driving force behind the behavior John described. As has been pointed out there are many great singers that also play the tunes and simply not allowing them to share their craft at a session to me seems a bit arrogant and selfish. Just my way of seeing things.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by ejsant
Damn that spell check!
"...as rather short 'sided'."
Should read: sighted
Forget a mere two consonants and see what you get.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Ed, here’s something you should definitely read:
http://www.humangolf.com/info/management/short_sided_disaster.html
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Hey Dick,
I am laughing my AO as that is exactly what I envisioned when I re-read the post after it was made and recognized my mistake. Although I never broke 80 I have danced around the lower 80's in my day. I haven't been on a golf course in over twenty years so I would suppose I would have one of the lowest costs per stroke out there today!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Tunes, Songs and Dance. They all belong together in the tradition but the dance part has to some extent gone its own way in many areas. Song also is becoming increasingly a separate thing in the 'No-tunes singing session'.
I am not commenting on the right and wrong of this; just to say that the circumstances of these sessions are nothing like the original sessions that were much more community based, in a house or a local village pub.
Where the session is community based it is much easier to expect it to be inclusive of song and dance. Where people come together, sometimes travelling distances to play a few tunes during a limited time period - the desire is more focused on the selfish aim of doing what they set out to do.
The songs then become an intrusion.........maybe.
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by Donough
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Over four decades of sessioneering, I have lost count of the number of previously happily-run sessions, that got taken over by guitarists / singers, resulting in the songs getting further and further away from anything bordering on folk. As always, musicians ended up leaving and starting up elsewhere.
(I am not suggesting that folk sessions should only feature folk, but when the emphasis is on Country & Western, a folk session ceases to be one)
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by geoffwright
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
Geoff Wright:
I'm interested that you distinguish between musicians and singer/guitarists (personally I neither sing nor strum).
Whilst I dislike the term "folk" I believe that the traditional value of a session lies in the social mechanics of the event itself rather than the particular musical content. At least, so far as the anarchic, un-managed sessions that I attend are concerned. That is to say, sessions where tolerance and infomal concensus are the rule, rather than diktat .
Happy playing Geoff
MYBC
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: Another night at the Circle of Death
"John, I enjoy a good song too & Mrs Ptarmigan & myself used to attend a 'Singers Session' over here, which consisted of over two hours of unaccompanied songs"
Ptarm - you are made of stronger stuff than I am!
# Posted on September 22nd 2006 by domnull