I am a good classical violinist that is very interested in getting better at Irish fiddling. I'm looking for advice on playing the ornaments correctly. Advice on recordings, or DVDs, or suggested tunes on this site that show the ornaments written out would be wonderful! Thanks!
The quickest way to getting 'it' right is to immerse yourself in listening. I know it's what nobody wants to hear when starting out, but it's the honest to god's truth. You can spend alot of time evaluating the timing of whatever ornament you want to, but the easiest and fastest way is to just listen to it for a couple months and ingrain it into your psyche.
Ask instead for recommended recordings - AND - learn who the people are that would be considered masters of traditional irish music and seek them out. Attend workshops, ask questions. Most of them are very generous with their music.
Or, spend years spinning your wheels only to arrive to the conclusion that you need to soak your bones in it to be able to let it all out. These days I spend about 90% of my practice time listening and maybe 10% actually playing the instrument. That's true whether I'm learning a new tune or a new bowing trick or left-hand ornament.
Recommendations will come ad nauseum, so I'll just suggest starting with some sort of compilation of recordings of solo fiddle players. You'll get some idea of what you like and don't like and you can branch off from there and follow your own path.
I dig Paddy Cronin, Martin Byrnes, Seamus Creagh, Denis Murphy, Paddy Fahey, Pat Mullins, Bobby Casey, James Kelly, Marty O'Keefe, Julia Clifford, Peter Horan...etc. That's just me though. You'll get loads of other recommendations I'm sure. Or some snippy remarks about redundancy and possibly some helpful links.
Listen, listen listen. I'm classically trained too...and if you're not Suzuki trained or otherwise haven't learned to learn by ear(my background too)....listen even more. Trying to learn Irish music from paper WILL NOT WORK, believe me I've tried. Wait, let me rephrase that...it will work for some tunes, and that's the point of this site....but learning by ear will help you at workshops and more importantly sessions, especially if you're just beginning and don't know many of the tunes.
Soo.....listen to a lot of music (and my advice, if you're not an ear learner, it to listen to it (yes, again) then spend a lot of time pausing the tape/cd and playing what's just been done below tempo...chunk it up)....
Yeah she's recommended some good ones...there are plenty more out there but I'm too lazy to list....
Yep...listen, listen, listen. There are several good discussions here on fiddle ornamentation, including some fine detailed descriptions of *some* of the ways of executing the ornaments.
Oh, and (yes I know this hurts) lose the vibrato unless you're playing slow airs. That was probably one of the hardest things I had to do hahaha...but it makes a gigantic difference in sound. (Like I said, pile it on all you want on slow airs....but don't try to put it in on reels or jigs unless you have a long note...even then it's better to ornament)...and nothing will make you realize just how much vibrato you use like trying not to (but start trying now!)
Hi, Irateacher! I'm glad you're interested in fiddling, that's great! I hope you have a lot of fun with it! I know I do. I started out on classical violin as well. When I first started fiddling, a very good fiddler from our area told me quite firmly to "ditch the sheet music." I was rather surprised at first, but I look up to this fiddler a lot, so I worked hard at learning by ear, and I left the sheet music behind. I found that when I learned by ear instead of from the dots, ornamentation and variations came a lot easier to me. Reading from music tended to lock me in "classical mode," but learning by ear really helped me to immerse myself in the Irish style, and it's really improved my playing. I'll second FarewelltoErin317's advice: Learn by ear and listen, listen, listen. Good luck!
If you get a chance for a few lessons with someone who really knows their stuff, go for it. Even one group workshop with a "big name" can be very useful, especially for somebody who already has good fundamentals.
My 2p worth. As everyone says, listening is crucial. Watching is good too. Look at decent irish fiddlers bowing, and imitate in front of a mirror. Good classical right arm technique aint going to sound right (and don't look right either.)
If you want to know what's going on "inside" ornaments etc, rather than looking at notation, use software such as more recent versions of "Media Player" to slow things down so you can hear what's going on.
You can also slow down a recording using a cheap dictaphone. Pick a great fiddler, and study their exact versions of tunes. Analysing the slowed down tunes is a tedious process but pays off. It is often surprising how the odd note here and there makes all the difference. Also, I find that it only takes a couple of tunes to get a good idea of a fiddler's style. This hugely helps to avoid the pitfalls of attempting to play tunes from sheetmusic. Most of all though, you can't beat playing in good sessions in Ireland. I have always found the musicians there very friendly and encouraging and I learnt more in an all night session in Sligo than I ever did from studying!
I don't play fiddle, but I do play mandolin. Iv'e visted this site for quite some time , the same time I started the mandolin. From the start contributers to this site always advised me to leave the dots alone ( I'm classsicaly trained ) and start to listen more.
Well me being the pig headed so and so I am carried on playing using sheet music. To me it was much easier and I could learn loads more tunes in a very short space of time.
I new then it was a mistake, but carried on regardless. I am though hoping NOW to learn the reel "feel" of irish music, because although I do play in a few Irish sessions I sometimes struggle . Strange though because even though I say iy myself Iv'e a very good "ear" for music . . .
So everybodys right you have to listen . . listen.
Trouble is I've recently discovered American old time music and I'm learning the tunes by the dots once again, and playing along to midi files !! But it doesn't seem to have the same negative effect to my playing as Irish music.
I don't think ditching the written music is as crucial as other people seem to think. I'm classically trained (clarinet) and I picked up the whistle a few years ago. I still play tunes from the dots, but I ran out and bought a LOT of music, immersed myself in it, listened a lot. I love learning tunes from the notes because I don't learn someone else's VERSION -- I get to create my own idea of the tune. But to get there, I really had to focus on listening to as many CDs and live musicians as possible.
Crysania makes a good point, there's really nothing wrong with *learning* the tunes from the stripped-down dots (like most of the abc, here) and finding your own way to ornament. That goes a long way to making the tune *yours* instead of someone else’s.
I've gotten better at learning by ear, but I find myself doing the same thing; mentally stripping away the ornaments to get the basic melody and then "reconstituting" it into something that sounds good to my ear and at least similar to the original.
But, the general suggestion to listen, listen, listen … and then listen some more is also critical.
In fact, the more you listen the more you’ll get a feel for how a tune can be ornamented; because no two fiddlers do it the same, and (most of the time) most fiddlers don’t do it the same each time they play the same tune!
the Amazing Slowdowner software allows you to slow down music to listen to the ornamentation. Matt Cranitch's fiddle book has an accompanying CD with rolls and cuts.
Thanks for the great advice. The overwhelming response seems to be listen, listen, listen. So who are some of the best to listen to? I particularly like performers that are not TOTALLY tied to tradition. Someone who plays the standards, but with a lot of originality, and heart. Looking forward to more responses!
I am a classical violinist and I think it is needed to listen to all kind of recordings, good and bad. For a novice it is important to be able to identify a bad tune. Like you do in classical you listen to one interpretation and it does not speak to you, you listen to another one and it blows you away. Lose the shoulder rest, lose the classical body language and go to a session. I just walked in, took my violin and plaid. Scarry at first but worst it......
Some people have said that when you learn from the dots you can create your own version. Try not to forget; the dots, no matter how stripped down, are still someone's version of the tune. My advice is to listen to as many versions of a tune as you can get your hands on. You'll find the variations you like best seeping into your own playing.
I played classical for 15 years before making the switch to Irish. I learned through suzuki and had been listening and playing Irish music for years in my spare time, so the transition was pretty natural for me, but here are the biggies:
- Practice your ability to learn by ear. Windows Media Player has a plugin that can slow down any tune if you can't quite make it out at full speed.
- Lose the vibrato unless it's a slow tune or a long note.
- Listen to as much Irish music as you can. This even works if you're not actively listening to music... somehow just hearing a tune 5-10 times before trying to play it will speed up the actual learning process many times over.
Check out Martin Hayes and Liz Carroll if you haven't already.
"I particularly like performers that are not TOTALLY tied to tradition. Someone who plays the standards, but with a lot of originality, and heart."
You'll never learn to play real traditional music if you don't listen to players who ARE totally tied to the tradition. And, contrary to what you suggest, players who are completely immersed, inseparable from the tradition have tons of originality and heart.
The really good players (the McGoldrick's, Ivers', Lunasa's, etc.) who do make departures from the tradition know what they're departing from: in other words, they know how to play the pure drop but have made other artistic choices. But they started at the source.
Tintin is correct. It can also be discouraging if you attempt to emulate flashy, virtuoso, or trendy fiddlers straight away. You might wish to give up too quickly.
If you can, listen to "ould" fiddlers, "ould" recordings and "ould" players" sessions. I give this advice as someone who has been more used to Scottish music and a variety of other stuff including Irish music than purely Irish music. However, I found this very helpful even if some of the tunes and arrangements seemed a bit corny. It's all a matter of opinion, of course.
Other than that, as has been already stated, "Listen, listen, listen" is the best advice. Especially to those musicians you admire.
Al,
While I certainly wouldn't recommend your advice, given in jest, I'd also reject the opposite view; i.e that what is played in your "local session" should be slavishly followed "note for note" or "tune for tune".
You might go to another session and find "God forbid" that "The Boys of Bluehill" doesn't follow "Harvest Home" or "Dennis Murphy's" doesn't necessarily lead into "John Ryan's". Very obvious examples here, I know.
So, again, it's "Listen, listen, listen" to as many sources of music as you can.
As above - but to add just my own wee thought, don't worry too much about analysing what you have to do to make a certain sound. Just listen to it as you play along and relax, the sound you hear sometimes just appears. As if by magic.
You have to have an idea as to how the ornament works, but don't try and overanalyse it, just let your ears, brain and fingers work by themselves.
I wasn't trying to offend! The traditional, and older recordings that I have heard are wonderful, but SOME do get repetitive. I was trying to indicate that I'm looking for fiddlers that are known for their creativity in treating the tune, while still being true to the original. My understanding is that being creative is part of being traditional. With so many recordings out there, (and me without a lot of money) I was hoping to narrow the field a little.
John J, point taken, and all kidding aside, I totally agree--getting a broad exposure is a great way to approach the music.
(Around here, by the way, when they are played, the Boys of Bluehill almost always leads into Harvest Home, which is the opposite of how I would like folks to approach it, since many build up a big head of steam on the simpler Boys, and then rip into Harvest Home at high speed and muck up all hopping up and down and the nice runs.)
Lots of fine advice here, but I would add that when it comes to ornaments, listening alone won't do a whole lot of good. They tend to go by so fast they are incomprehensible to anyone who is not already familiar with what is happening. Also, the 'where and when' to add them has a feel to it that takes a while to develop. I remember ages ago when I started, I had a divil of a time grasping the idea of the 'long bow'. Throwing in cuts and rolls on an upbow, without changing direction, seemed impossible. But that pulse... that increase in pressure, is what finally led me to understand what the old guys were calling the 'nyah'. I think the nyah is what eludes so many players coming from the strict mathematical world of classical violin.
My reccomendation? http://www.homespuntapes.com/artists/artistpage.asp?artID=434
TH
hese taped lessons by Kevin Burke helped me tremendously, and he was doing things in almost exactly the same way asI was learning from the people in the chair in front of me. Good luck!
RWM
I disagree up to a point that 'classical technique' won't help. Classical technique is surely just technique that's been studied and designed to get round more technically challenging aspects of the instrument. While it may not be necessary in fiddle music it can be good if you can adapt it to what the music needs. Where it changes is that you are no longer tied to what the dots tell you, that's the thing people find hard to get away from. The advice to listen is crucial as the rhythm is impossible to replicate from the dots. Just like all fiddle players have their own way of doing things, so do classical players. If you can get away from feeling pigeonholed as a 'classical player' and just enjoy the music that's a big step. There's a CD rom by Cathal Hayden that goes through ornamentation and things, but if you can get lessons it's better. You may find in just listening to recordings you can't work out what the ornaments are- some of them are pretty fast in the left hand and the bow. If you are in London, I found Brendan Mulkere's workshops helpful, look at http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/directory/links/apps/irishcentre/education.asp#adults
"I wasn't trying to offend! The traditional, and older recordings that I have heard are wonderful, but SOME do get repetitive. I was trying to indicate that I'm looking for fiddlers that are known for their creativity in treating the tune, while still being true to the original."
Sorry--I wasn't trying to offend, either! (Sometimes people think there's a shortcut to playing like their favorite star.)
Of course, when cash is limited and CDs are expensive, you might as well get some that you'll like!
For deep listening/learning, I'd recommend solo and duet stuff.
There are so many fine traditional recordings, I hope some people will chime in with a favorite or two to help you build a collection...
Catherine and John McEvoy have a lovely one called the Kilmore Fancy. Wonderfully musical playing.
Frankie Gavin is a mighty player, as is Kevin Burke.
Yes, do listen, but I also find that "experienced" musicians often play too fast too early. Just because you can physically play fast doesn't mean that you should. Or just because you can play a tune fast, from a physical perspective, it doesn't mean that it sounds good.
(Now this is not a highjack, or a change of subject. I am not an exponent of slower = better. I am just saying that one should play to their capability.)
As you are adding ornaments, you should only play the tune as fast as you are able to play those ornaments. Don't blast your way through them.
I second some of Steph's selections, especially James Kelly. You might also try Patrick Kelly or the master:
I second whoever suggested Martin Hayes, Liz Carrol and Liz Knowles...but there are a million others who are fun to listen to, those three are great for listening to to get a hold of the style and whatnot...but I mean listen to everything you can get your hands on, those closer to the tradition and the ones that are a little farther out (Eileen Ivers, Lunasa, etc) if you like that sort of thing (but it's not going to be great to learn from as someone mentioned)...
Someone also said to lose the shoulder rest...I'm not sure you have to do that, most fiddlers I know use one...
Thanks for the great leads! The threads are especially nice! For now I'm keeping my shoulder rest...I'm going to have enough trouble leaving my friends "the dots" (lol, hadn't heard that term before), and the vibrato :( behind.
"Brian Conway's First through the Gate is totally charming."
He's even better in person. I actually found the album slightly disappointing after the concert, but that might be because the engineering wasn't as good as it should've been (meaning not how I would've done it).
This is a classic. When I was first learning I remember being awed by the amount of stuff I had to learn from this, straight off the vinyl by the way, nae fancy slowdown software in them days. But I steadilly and patiently went through it, note for note, roll for roll, subtle swing for subtle swing, variation for variation (and inevitably gained the oft-seen and unenviable "Burke Clone" moniker - long since shed of course).
But if you are short of cash and can only make the odd purchace, I think there would be a general consensus that this one should give you one heck of a foot in the door.
I'd also listen to tunes for Irish set dancing played by ceili bands, because almost all the music (except for slow airs) was intended to be danced to. If you listen to such a cd you'll get a pretty good notion of the ideal speed (or rather range of speeds) to aim for. Better still, if you get the opportunity, go a set-dancing ceili or workshop and listen and watch - perhaps even learn the dancing.
My suggestion is to learn to fiddle generally--
that is learn to play and have command of your instrument.
Start as a beginner--childrens fiddle tunes, Suzuki method,
folk songs, Appalachian. Last of all attempt a style as unique and demanding as the various schools of Irish fiddling.
My advice is GET A TEACHER!!!! Or at least play whit some one know what they are doing. I am trying to teach myself Irish fiddling and am having a tough time getting the hang of it. Despite listening to to Irish music till my mom goes nuts.
It might be easy for you though, since youhave been playing Violin for years.
Some of my favotite atrists are Natalie McMaster and Leahy. Both are Canadian born but play some petty amazing tunes, origional and traditional.
Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I am a good classical violinist that is very interested in getting better at Irish fiddling. I'm looking for advice on playing the ornaments correctly. Advice on recordings, or DVDs, or suggested tunes on this site that show the ornaments written out would be wonderful! Thanks!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by irateacher
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
The quickest way to getting 'it' right is to immerse yourself in listening. I know it's what nobody wants to hear when starting out, but it's the honest to god's truth. You can spend alot of time evaluating the timing of whatever ornament you want to, but the easiest and fastest way is to just listen to it for a couple months and ingrain it into your psyche.
Ask instead for recommended recordings - AND - learn who the people are that would be considered masters of traditional irish music and seek them out. Attend workshops, ask questions. Most of them are very generous with their music.
Or, spend years spinning your wheels only to arrive to the conclusion that you need to soak your bones in it to be able to let it all out. These days I spend about 90% of my practice time listening and maybe 10% actually playing the instrument. That's true whether I'm learning a new tune or a new bowing trick or left-hand ornament.
Recommendations will come ad nauseum, so I'll just suggest starting with some sort of compilation of recordings of solo fiddle players. You'll get some idea of what you like and don't like and you can branch off from there and follow your own path.
I dig Paddy Cronin, Martin Byrnes, Seamus Creagh, Denis Murphy, Paddy Fahey, Pat Mullins, Bobby Casey, James Kelly, Marty O'Keefe, Julia Clifford, Peter Horan...etc. That's just me though. You'll get loads of other recommendations I'm sure. Or some snippy remarks about redundancy and possibly some helpful links.
Have fun...
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by _Steph_
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Listen, listen listen. I'm classically trained too...and if you're not Suzuki trained or otherwise haven't learned to learn by ear(my background too)....listen even more. Trying to learn Irish music from paper WILL NOT WORK, believe me I've tried. Wait, let me rephrase that...it will work for some tunes, and that's the point of this site....but learning by ear will help you at workshops and more importantly sessions, especially if you're just beginning and don't know many of the tunes.
Soo.....listen to a lot of music (and my advice, if you're not an ear learner, it to listen to it (yes, again) then spend a lot of time pausing the tape/cd and playing what's just been done below tempo...chunk it up)....
Yeah she's recommended some good ones...there are plenty more out there but I'm too lazy to list....
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Yep...listen, listen, listen. There are several good discussions here on fiddle ornamentation, including some fine detailed descriptions of *some* of the ways of executing the ornaments.
Here's a recent one that has some links to previous discussions - http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10737
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Oh, and (yes I know this hurts) lose the vibrato unless you're playing slow airs. That was probably one of the hardest things I had to do hahaha...but it makes a gigantic difference in sound. (Like I said, pile it on all you want on slow airs....but don't try to put it in on reels or jigs unless you have a long note...even then it's better to ornament)...and nothing will make you realize just how much vibrato you use like trying not to (but start trying now!)
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Hi, Irateacher! I'm glad you're interested in fiddling, that's great! I hope you have a lot of fun with it! I know I do. I started out on classical violin as well. When I first started fiddling, a very good fiddler from our area told me quite firmly to "ditch the sheet music." I was rather surprised at first, but I look up to this fiddler a lot, so I worked hard at learning by ear, and I left the sheet music behind. I found that when I learned by ear instead of from the dots, ornamentation and variations came a lot easier to me. Reading from music tended to lock me in "classical mode," but learning by ear really helped me to immerse myself in the Irish style, and it's really improved my playing. I'll second FarewelltoErin317's advice: Learn by ear and listen, listen, listen. Good luck!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Fiddlekit
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
If you get a chance for a few lessons with someone who really knows their stuff, go for it. Even one group workshop with a "big name" can be very useful, especially for somebody who already has good fundamentals.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by mickray
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
My 2p worth. As everyone says, listening is crucial. Watching is good too. Look at decent irish fiddlers bowing, and imitate in front of a mirror. Good classical right arm technique aint going to sound right (and don't look right either.)
If you want to know what's going on "inside" ornaments etc, rather than looking at notation, use software such as more recent versions of "Media Player" to slow things down so you can hear what's going on.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
And ditching the dots is crucial!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
You can also slow down a recording using a cheap dictaphone. Pick a great fiddler, and study their exact versions of tunes. Analysing the slowed down tunes is a tedious process but pays off. It is often surprising how the odd note here and there makes all the difference. Also, I find that it only takes a couple of tunes to get a good idea of a fiddler's style. This hugely helps to avoid the pitfalls of attempting to play tunes from sheetmusic. Most of all though, you can't beat playing in good sessions in Ireland. I have always found the musicians there very friendly and encouraging and I learnt more in an all night session in Sligo than I ever did from studying!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Rob Millner
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I don't play fiddle, but I do play mandolin. Iv'e visted this site for quite some time , the same time I started the mandolin. From the start contributers to this site always advised me to leave the dots alone ( I'm classsicaly trained ) and start to listen more.
Well me being the pig headed so and so I am carried on playing using sheet music. To me it was much easier and I could learn loads more tunes in a very short space of time.
I new then it was a mistake, but carried on regardless. I am though hoping NOW to learn the reel "feel" of irish music, because although I do play in a few Irish sessions I sometimes struggle . Strange though because even though I say iy myself Iv'e a very good "ear" for music . . .
So everybodys right you have to listen . . listen.
Trouble is I've recently discovered American old time music and I'm learning the tunes by the dots once again, and playing along to midi files !! But it doesn't seem to have the same negative effect to my playing as Irish music.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Justintime
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I don't think ditching the written music is as crucial as other people seem to think. I'm classically trained (clarinet) and I picked up the whistle a few years ago. I still play tunes from the dots, but I ran out and bought a LOT of music, immersed myself in it, listened a lot. I love learning tunes from the notes because I don't learn someone else's VERSION -- I get to create my own idea of the tune. But to get there, I really had to focus on listening to as many CDs and live musicians as possible.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Crysania
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Crysania makes a good point, there's really nothing wrong with *learning* the tunes from the stripped-down dots (like most of the abc, here) and finding your own way to ornament. That goes a long way to making the tune *yours* instead of someone else’s.
I've gotten better at learning by ear, but I find myself doing the same thing; mentally stripping away the ornaments to get the basic melody and then "reconstituting" it into something that sounds good to my ear and at least similar to the original.
But, the general suggestion to listen, listen, listen … and then listen some more is also critical.
In fact, the more you listen the more you’ll get a feel for how a tune can be ornamented; because no two fiddlers do it the same, and (most of the time) most fiddlers don’t do it the same each time they play the same tune!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
the Amazing Slowdowner software allows you to slow down music to listen to the ornamentation. Matt Cranitch's fiddle book has an accompanying CD with rolls and cuts.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by elvis2440
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Thanks for the great advice. The overwhelming response seems to be listen, listen, listen. So who are some of the best to listen to? I particularly like performers that are not TOTALLY tied to tradition. Someone who plays the standards, but with a lot of originality, and heart. Looking forward to more responses!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by irateacher
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I am a classical violinist and I think it is needed to listen to all kind of recordings, good and bad. For a novice it is important to be able to identify a bad tune. Like you do in classical you listen to one interpretation and it does not speak to you, you listen to another one and it blows you away. Lose the shoulder rest, lose the classical body language and go to a session. I just walked in, took my violin and plaid. Scarry at first but worst it......
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by amilia
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Some people have said that when you learn from the dots you can create your own version. Try not to forget; the dots, no matter how stripped down, are still someone's version of the tune. My advice is to listen to as many versions of a tune as you can get your hands on. You'll find the variations you like best seeping into your own playing.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I played classical for 15 years before making the switch to Irish. I learned through suzuki and had been listening and playing Irish music for years in my spare time, so the transition was pretty natural for me, but here are the biggies:
- Practice your ability to learn by ear. Windows Media Player has a plugin that can slow down any tune if you can't quite make it out at full speed.
- Lose the vibrato unless it's a slow tune or a long note.
- Listen to as much Irish music as you can. This even works if you're not actively listening to music... somehow just hearing a tune 5-10 times before trying to play it will speed up the actual learning process many times over.
Check out Martin Hayes and Liz Carroll if you haven't already.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Nathan G
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I like Liz Knowles - for originality and heat.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by elvis2440
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
"I particularly like performers that are not TOTALLY tied to tradition. Someone who plays the standards, but with a lot of originality, and heart."
You'll never learn to play real traditional music if you don't listen to players who ARE totally tied to the tradition. And, contrary to what you suggest, players who are completely immersed, inseparable from the tradition have tons of originality and heart.
The really good players (the McGoldrick's, Ivers', Lunasa's, etc.) who do make departures from the tradition know what they're departing from: in other words, they know how to play the pure drop but have made other artistic choices. But they started at the source.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Tintin
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Tintin is correct. It can also be discouraging if you attempt to emulate flashy, virtuoso, or trendy fiddlers straight away. You might wish to give up too quickly.
If you can, listen to "ould" fiddlers, "ould" recordings and "ould" players" sessions. I give this advice as someone who has been more used to Scottish music and a variety of other stuff including Irish music than purely Irish music. However, I found this very helpful even if some of the tunes and arrangements seemed a bit corny. It's all a matter of opinion, of course.
Other than that, as has been already stated, "Listen, listen, listen" is the best advice. Especially to those musicians you admire.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Echoing the wise advice of possum and nathan: LOSE THE VIBRATO. It's merely an ornament to be used sparingly, if at all.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by lcox
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Listen to and copy lots of Solas, Lunasa and Flook stuff, and play their sets note for note at your local session...............
(Only fooling!)
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Al,
While I certainly wouldn't recommend your advice, given in jest, I'd also reject the opposite view; i.e that what is played in your "local session" should be slavishly followed "note for note" or "tune for tune".
You might go to another session and find "God forbid" that "The Boys of Bluehill" doesn't follow "Harvest Home" or "Dennis Murphy's" doesn't necessarily lead into "John Ryan's". Very obvious examples here, I know.
So, again, it's "Listen, listen, listen" to as many sources of music as you can.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
As above - but to add just my own wee thought, don't worry too much about analysing what you have to do to make a certain sound. Just listen to it as you play along and relax, the sound you hear sometimes just appears. As if by magic.
You have to have an idea as to how the ornament works, but don't try and overanalyse it, just let your ears, brain and fingers work by themselves.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by clunk999
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I wasn't trying to offend! The traditional, and older recordings that I have heard are wonderful, but SOME do get repetitive. I was trying to indicate that I'm looking for fiddlers that are known for their creativity in treating the tune, while still being true to the original. My understanding is that being creative is part of being traditional. With so many recordings out there, (and me without a lot of money) I was hoping to narrow the field a little.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by irateacher
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
John J, point taken, and all kidding aside, I totally agree--getting a broad exposure is a great way to approach the music.
(Around here, by the way, when they are played, the Boys of Bluehill almost always leads into Harvest Home, which is the opposite of how I would like folks to approach it, since many build up a big head of steam on the simpler Boys, and then rip into Harvest Home at high speed and muck up all hopping up and down and the nice runs.)
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Lots of fine advice here, but I would add that when it comes to ornaments, listening alone won't do a whole lot of good. They tend to go by so fast they are incomprehensible to anyone who is not already familiar with what is happening. Also, the 'where and when' to add them has a feel to it that takes a while to develop. I remember ages ago when I started, I had a divil of a time grasping the idea of the 'long bow'. Throwing in cuts and rolls on an upbow, without changing direction, seemed impossible. But that pulse... that increase in pressure, is what finally led me to understand what the old guys were calling the 'nyah'. I think the nyah is what eludes so many players coming from the strict mathematical world of classical violin.
My reccomendation? http://www.homespuntapes.com/artists/artistpage.asp?artID=434
TH
hese taped lessons by Kevin Burke helped me tremendously, and he was doing things in almost exactly the same way asI was learning from the people in the chair in front of me. Good luck!
RWM
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by WireHarp
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I disagree up to a point that 'classical technique' won't help. Classical technique is surely just technique that's been studied and designed to get round more technically challenging aspects of the instrument. While it may not be necessary in fiddle music it can be good if you can adapt it to what the music needs. Where it changes is that you are no longer tied to what the dots tell you, that's the thing people find hard to get away from. The advice to listen is crucial as the rhythm is impossible to replicate from the dots. Just like all fiddle players have their own way of doing things, so do classical players. If you can get away from feeling pigeonholed as a 'classical player' and just enjoy the music that's a big step. There's a CD rom by Cathal Hayden that goes through ornamentation and things, but if you can get lessons it's better. You may find in just listening to recordings you can't work out what the ornaments are- some of them are pretty fast in the left hand and the bow. If you are in London, I found Brendan Mulkere's workshops helpful, look at http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/directory/links/apps/irishcentre/education.asp#adults
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by oh fiddle it
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
"I wasn't trying to offend! The traditional, and older recordings that I have heard are wonderful, but SOME do get repetitive. I was trying to indicate that I'm looking for fiddlers that are known for their creativity in treating the tune, while still being true to the original."
Sorry--I wasn't trying to offend, either! (Sometimes people think there's a shortcut to playing like their favorite star.)
Of course, when cash is limited and CDs are expensive, you might as well get some that you'll like!
For deep listening/learning, I'd recommend solo and duet stuff.
There are so many fine traditional recordings, I hope some people will chime in with a favorite or two to help you build a collection...
Catherine and John McEvoy have a lovely one called the Kilmore Fancy. Wonderfully musical playing.
Frankie Gavin is a mighty player, as is Kevin Burke.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Tintin
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Brian Conway's First through the Gate is totally charming. And not a hint of Harvest Home ;0)
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by oh fiddle it
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Yes, do listen, but I also find that "experienced" musicians often play too fast too early. Just because you can physically play fast doesn't mean that you should. Or just because you can play a tune fast, from a physical perspective, it doesn't mean that it sounds good.
(Now this is not a highjack, or a change of subject. I am not an exponent of slower = better. I am just saying that one should play to their capability.)
As you are adding ornaments, you should only play the tune as fast as you are able to play those ornaments. Don't blast your way through them.
I second some of Steph's selections, especially James Kelly. You might also try Patrick Kelly or the master:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/289
talk about "creativity in treating the tune"...
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Jode
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I second whoever suggested Martin Hayes, Liz Carrol and Liz Knowles...but there are a million others who are fun to listen to, those three are great for listening to to get a hold of the style and whatnot...but I mean listen to everything you can get your hands on, those closer to the tradition and the ones that are a little farther out (Eileen Ivers, Lunasa, etc) if you like that sort of thing (but it's not going to be great to learn from as someone mentioned)...
Someone also said to lose the shoulder rest...I'm not sure you have to do that, most fiddlers I know use one...
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Thanks for the great leads! The threads are especially nice! For now I'm keeping my shoulder rest...I'm going to have enough trouble leaving my friends "the dots" (lol, hadn't heard that term before), and the vibrato :( behind.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by irateacher
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Yay! (it's painful but at least you're starting early on in your fiddling career!) Good Luck!
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
"Brian Conway's First through the Gate is totally charming."
He's even better in person. I actually found the album slightly disappointing after the concert, but that might be because the engineering wasn't as good as it should've been (meaning not how I would've done it).
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
This is a classic. When I was first learning I remember being awed by the amount of stuff I had to learn from this, straight off the vinyl by the way, nae fancy slowdown software in them days. But I steadilly and patiently went through it, note for note, roll for roll, subtle swing for subtle swing, variation for variation (and inevitably gained the oft-seen and unenviable "Burke Clone" moniker - long since shed of course).
But if you are short of cash and can only make the odd purchace, I think there would be a general consensus that this one should give you one heck of a foot in the door.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/210
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
Great album. I should have tried set (no 8) last night.
Would that have been the entire side 2 on the old vinyl edition?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Johannes J
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
"Nae fancy slowdown software in them days," but did you have a 16rpm setting on the record player for that half speed/octave down sound?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by TomB-R
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
No, the set of straight hornpipes (or is it slow reels, same thing?) is track one on side two.
And we have been known to play the big set in Bell's, though there are too may versions of the college groves.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by llig leahcim
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
As a useful example of the contrast between the effortless economy of a top Irish fiddler and the frantic bowing of a well-known classical violinist, both playing the same tune, see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-JAP7Kf1cI&search=irish
It's discussed in plenty on http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10473
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
I'd also listen to tunes for Irish set dancing played by ceili bands, because almost all the music (except for slow airs) was intended to be danced to. If you listen to such a cd you'll get a pretty good notion of the ideal speed (or rather range of speeds) to aim for. Better still, if you get the opportunity, go a set-dancing ceili or workshop and listen and watch - perhaps even learn the dancing.
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
My suggestion is to learn to fiddle generally--
that is learn to play and have command of your instrument.
Start as a beginner--childrens fiddle tunes, Suzuki method,
folk songs, Appalachian. Last of all attempt a style as unique and demanding as the various schools of Irish fiddling.
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by hauke
Re: Getting started Irish fiddling...advice???
My advice is GET A TEACHER!!!! Or at least play whit some one know what they are doing. I am trying to teach myself Irish fiddling and am having a tough time getting the hang of it. Despite listening to to Irish music till my mom goes nuts.
It might be easy for you though, since youhave been playing Violin for years.
Some of my favotite atrists are Natalie McMaster and Leahy. Both are Canadian born but play some petty amazing tunes, origional and traditional.
Godspeed!
# Posted on February 27th 2007 by Eleiel