Do bodhrán players learn tunes?? Its just that Iv heard a few bodhrán players who just literally play 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 over and over, which is the rythm of a reel and works perfectly fine, I have nothing against that. On the other hand, I have also heard players who kinda go with the flow of a tune and follow its 'curves' if ya can get my drift!!
As someone who occasionally plays other Peoples' Zouks/OMs at very relaxed sessions, my answer is yes and no. There is the 1-2-3-4 way which works when one hasn't heard the tune before and can't anticipate the curves, for a chord guy it is the equvalent of putting a 1 4 5 chord progression behind a tune and following the rhythm. There is also the curve way where one can anticipate what will happen in the tune, and in a way knowing the tune, for a Chord guy it is throwing in those 7th and Minor chords when they can fit into a tune a major tune or those C chords in Dmix tunes.
Some bodhran players know nearly all the tunes. The 1234 bit is why i am always saying never take bodhran lessons, there are eejits teaching rhythms and getting the "students" to practice without music. Playing a bodhran is all about listening.
Incidently a young girl used to play along with us, could sight read music better than anyone you ever saw. She once handed music around to everyone but me.
Mind you, she only did it out of spite. She used to tell me this next one is in 4/6 or whatever, and I haven't a clue what any of that means. So when a moron like me was consistently brilliant, it used to annoy the hell out of her.
Mind you, I was playing a mandolin when she handed out the music.
I used to be in an old time band that used a spoon player that bought a bodhran. We would play a few Irishy tunes that sounded old timey. Although he really didn't know one tune from another he'd jump right in and it sounded great. It freed up the guitar player so he could go a bit outside with a slight syncopation and passing chords. A good ear and sense of rhythm is required for a bodhran player.
To quote a Monty Python catchphrase, a fair question that, and one which has been much on my mind.
Bodhran is not my primary, or even secondary, instrument, but I do play it as often as I can at sessions -- in fact, sometimes I make a point of playing it more than my other instruments so as to reinforce what I do at home.
Having played for several years, I've gone past the point of being able to keep the basic, steady rhythm, i.e., function as a human metronome. Since I tend to either know or at least recognize a majority of the tunes at a given session, the challenge for me now is to not get stuck in just playing 1-2-3-4 (or 1-2-3, etc.) without regard for the specific contours and character of the tune. A further challenge, then, is to _remember_ what I've done for a specific tune, e.g., emphasize a phrase there, or put in an extra roll here, when I encounter it again at another session.
I think that's the difference between being competent on an instrument and being really good at it. Can't say I've reached that next stage, but I'm working on it.
I've played with a great bodhran player who could play it as a melody instrument. I said to him it's just amazing, and he replied: "What else can I play?"
we play with about 5 bodhran players, 1 plays nothing else and plays one tone one beat no variation. The others also play flutes, mandolins, guitars etc. They all play the bodhran as a melody instrument, different rythmns, tones etc and with great effect.
I reckon a bodhran player should play the whole tune with a bit of emphasis on punctuation, I once asked an "expert" to play through a tricky bit again for me and he fell about laughing.
As if a bodhran player has to learn the tune says he. Some melody players deserve what they get in the drum dept.
Not only learn the ebbs and flow of the tunes but how each melody player puts their personal mark on them as well. This requires one to Listen, Listen Listen, and then Listen some more. If this advice is followed, advice given me early on and I am grateful for it, then one may also learn to anticipate the twists and turns of a tune they may not have heard before or how a melody player they have not played with before puts their own mark on the tune. Maybe not at first but if one listens and always puts the music well above their own performance of it, this will come.
I agree with Bliss as to the lesson bit for the most part but I do think it important to at least learn some basic rhythms and techniques, especially if you have not been raised with the music. To me it’s all about building a platform on which the melody players execute their craft. There needs to be some dynamic, not necessarily in the strict music theory definition, to one’s playing. This dynamic needs to compliment the melody. The greatest “lesson” I ever received, advice really, was to put down on the skin what I heard and felt in my soul. It was at the point of being able to do this, I believe anyway, that I crossed over from simply keeping a rhythm to adding to the music.
Perhaps when you stopped playing the Zilch, Bliss! By the way, just how many strings does a Zilch have?
Re: your bio - "Returned to Norn Ireland, and played zilch for about 4 years" - so after 4 years at it, you must be something of a local expert by now!
Ha Ha - don't forget to bring the beastie with you, next time you head north for Tom's!
bb, Asking this bunch a question like "Where did I go wrong?" is an invitation for verbal mayhem!
I must admit that I agree with you a lot, although, having never had the pleasure of hearing you play, I am taking your description of your abilities on faith!
I'm just glad that the bodhranistas we usually play with know the tunes fairly well and add some real value to the set. I have been known to rattle the bones at a few tunes and I like to think that, again, I play with the tune.
BTW one of my bones went awol at the weekend - these were hand painted by flute player Davy Maguire and I had the set for over 30 years - now only one.
Zen question - what is the sound of one bone playing??
I have played bohdran for about 15 years, as well as flute and whistle. I tried out various methods of bodhran teqniques till I found the one that suits me best. I probably know hundreda of tunes and even learning scottish pipe tunes helps create a different sense of rythym. Having gained some some advice from an all Ireland bohdran gold medallist Kieran Boyle, I now have adapted a Tommy Hayes type style and can cover most tunes with different variants on melody and ornamentation.
The advice to any bohdran player is to listen to the music and work on your timing always, practice makes perfection.
Now Bliss don’t go getting your tipper in a tizzy. I said for the most part so you’ve only gone a little wrong and I am sure you can quite easily correct that with some future ill thought out statement.
Al Brown, would I tell a lie, the "George Washington" of ITM?
And ejsant, I will try not to be so agreeable in future.
As for playing zilch, all the greats do that, then they are reluctantly talked into making a triumphant comeback. And is the "beastie" the drum or the mandolin. The mandolin would have done the last night in Tom's, but not usually.
On our first day in Clonakilty a couple of weeks ago we went to a gig at An Teach Beag (now there's an exercise in pronunciation for anyone who has little experience of Irish!). It was a 2-piece band, but people could ask to join in. A bodhrán player did just that; the leader fixed him with a gimlet eye and said "only if you can play extremely well", and gave him a chance to try out a tune. After which little audition the bodhrán player was told that they'd let him know when he could join in, and as far as I know he didn't. I can only conclude that the band had long had its fill of bodhrán players from hell, and anyway a dead give-away was that the bodhrán in this instance looked brand-new.
The next evening I was down at An Teach Beag for another "and friends" gig, this time taking my fiddle with me. The band was a whistle (the leader), a box, a guitar and a bodhrán. I listened to them for half an hour or so and when the leader came up to the bar I went up to him and said I had my fiddle with me and could I ...? The words were barely out of my mouth when he grabbed my arm and said "Good man! For God's sake sit yourself down between me and that bodhrán!" It didn't take long to discover why. That bodhrán was excessively loud. I could barely hear myself or the other players. Ten minutes later the leader indicated to the bodhrán player that his services were no longer required. The remainder of the evening then passed with good music making.
Fortunately, most bodhrán players in sessions are experienced enough to know that their job is to accompany and not to drown everyone else out.
Slainte, we have a lady bodhránist in Bristol who not only knows the tunes but on occasion can start off a tune set.
I once sat next to a bodhranista who was drowning out most of the players and I simply pointed out to him that I couldn't hear half of the players and would he mind playing quieter. He complied. Of course I should mention that I am freakishly large and look a lot like a trained concertina-playing bear. It's possible he was actually being polite though too I suppose.
Now, heres a question!!
Now, heres a question!!
Do bodhrán players learn tunes?? Its just that Iv heard a few bodhrán players who just literally play 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 over and over, which is the rythm of a reel and works perfectly fine, I have nothing against that. On the other hand, I have also heard players who kinda go with the flow of a tune and follow its 'curves' if ya can get my drift!!
Wat dye think???
# Posted on August 5th 2006 by galway-fiddle
Re: Now, heres a question!!
bb, where are you ?
Where was the session where the keen guy handed round music to everyone except the bodhran-player ?
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Good bodhran players do.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by alison kale
Re: Now, heres a question!!
As someone who occasionally plays other Peoples' Zouks/OMs at very relaxed sessions, my answer is yes and no. There is the 1-2-3-4 way which works when one hasn't heard the tune before and can't anticipate the curves, for a chord guy it is the equvalent of putting a 1 4 5 chord progression behind a tune and following the rhythm. There is also the curve way where one can anticipate what will happen in the tune, and in a way knowing the tune, for a Chord guy it is throwing in those 7th and Minor chords when they can fit into a tune a major tune or those C chords in Dmix tunes.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by Unseen122
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Some bodhran players know nearly all the tunes. The 1234 bit is why i am always saying never take bodhran lessons, there are eejits teaching rhythms and getting the "students" to practice without music. Playing a bodhran is all about listening.
Incidently a young girl used to play along with us, could sight read music better than anyone you ever saw. She once handed music around to everyone but me.
Mind you, she only did it out of spite. She used to tell me this next one is in 4/6 or whatever, and I haven't a clue what any of that means. So when a moron like me was consistently brilliant, it used to annoy the hell out of her.
Mind you, I was playing a mandolin when she handed out the music.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I used to be in an old time band that used a spoon player that bought a bodhran. We would play a few Irishy tunes that sounded old timey. Although he really didn't know one tune from another he'd jump right in and it sounded great. It freed up the guitar player so he could go a bit outside with a slight syncopation and passing chords. A good ear and sense of rhythm is required for a bodhran player.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by huck
Re: Now, heres a question!!
And a thick skin!
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by Wurzel
Re: Now, heres a question!!
To quote a Monty Python catchphrase, a fair question that, and one which has been much on my mind.
Bodhran is not my primary, or even secondary, instrument, but I do play it as often as I can at sessions -- in fact, sometimes I make a point of playing it more than my other instruments so as to reinforce what I do at home.
Having played for several years, I've gone past the point of being able to keep the basic, steady rhythm, i.e., function as a human metronome. Since I tend to either know or at least recognize a majority of the tunes at a given session, the challenge for me now is to not get stuck in just playing 1-2-3-4 (or 1-2-3, etc.) without regard for the specific contours and character of the tune. A further challenge, then, is to _remember_ what I've done for a specific tune, e.g., emphasize a phrase there, or put in an extra roll here, when I encounter it again at another session.
I think that's the difference between being competent on an instrument and being really good at it. Can't say I've reached that next stage, but I'm working on it.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by sts
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I've played with a great bodhran player who could play it as a melody instrument. I said to him it's just amazing, and he replied: "What else can I play?"
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by slainte
Re: Now, heres a question!!
we play with about 5 bodhran players, 1 plays nothing else and plays one tone one beat no variation. The others also play flutes, mandolins, guitars etc. They all play the bodhran as a melody instrument, different rythmns, tones etc and with great effect.
# Posted on August 6th 2006 by Joze
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I reckon a bodhran player should play the whole tune with a bit of emphasis on punctuation, I once asked an "expert" to play through a tricky bit again for me and he fell about laughing.
As if a bodhran player has to learn the tune says he. Some melody players deserve what they get in the drum dept.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by mcknowall
Re: Now, heres a question!!
IMO the good ones all do learn tunes.
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Not only learn the ebbs and flow of the tunes but how each melody player puts their personal mark on them as well. This requires one to Listen, Listen Listen, and then Listen some more. If this advice is followed, advice given me early on and I am grateful for it, then one may also learn to anticipate the twists and turns of a tune they may not have heard before or how a melody player they have not played with before puts their own mark on the tune. Maybe not at first but if one listens and always puts the music well above their own performance of it, this will come.
I agree with Bliss as to the lesson bit for the most part but I do think it important to at least learn some basic rhythms and techniques, especially if you have not been raised with the music. To me it’s all about building a platform on which the melody players execute their craft. There needs to be some dynamic, not necessarily in the strict music theory definition, to one’s playing. This dynamic needs to compliment the melody. The greatest “lesson” I ever received, advice really, was to put down on the skin what I heard and felt in my soul. It was at the point of being able to do this, I believe anyway, that I crossed over from simply keeping a rhythm to adding to the music.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Someone agreeing with me? Where did I go wrong?
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Perhaps when you stopped playing the Zilch, Bliss! By the way, just how many strings does a Zilch have?
Re: your bio - "Returned to Norn Ireland, and played zilch for about 4 years" - so after 4 years at it, you must be something of a local expert by now!
Ha Ha - don't forget to bring the beastie with you, next time you head north for Tom's!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Now, heres a question!!
bb, Asking this bunch a question like "Where did I go wrong?" is an invitation for verbal mayhem!
I must admit that I agree with you a lot, although, having never had the pleasure of hearing you play, I am taking your description of your abilities on faith!
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I'm just glad that the bodhranistas we usually play with know the tunes fairly well and add some real value to the set. I have been known to rattle the bones at a few tunes and I like to think that, again, I play with the tune.
BTW one of my bones went awol at the weekend - these were hand painted by flute player Davy Maguire and I had the set for over 30 years - now only one.
Zen question - what is the sound of one bone playing??
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by breandan
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I have played bohdran for about 15 years, as well as flute and whistle. I tried out various methods of bodhran teqniques till I found the one that suits me best. I probably know hundreda of tunes and even learning scottish pipe tunes helps create a different sense of rythym. Having gained some some advice from an all Ireland bohdran gold medallist Kieran Boyle, I now have adapted a Tommy Hayes type style and can cover most tunes with different variants on melody and ornamentation.
The advice to any bohdran player is to listen to the music and work on your timing always, practice makes perfection.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Dave_
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Now Bliss don’t go getting your tipper in a tizzy. I said for the most part so you’ve only gone a little wrong and I am sure you can quite easily correct that with some future ill thought out statement.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Now, heres a question!!
"Mind you, I was playing a mandolin when she handed out the music." Ah but Bliss, were you using a Plectrum or a Tipper to play it, at the time?
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Now, heres a question!!
Al Brown, would I tell a lie, the "George Washington" of ITM?
And ejsant, I will try not to be so agreeable in future.
As for playing zilch, all the greats do that, then they are reluctantly talked into making a triumphant comeback. And is the "beastie" the drum or the mandolin. The mandolin would have done the last night in Tom's, but not usually.
# Posted on August 8th 2006 by bodhran bliss
Re: Now, heres a question!!
”And ejsant, I will try not to be so agreeable in future.”
Now there’s a good man!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on August 9th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Now, heres a question!!
On our first day in Clonakilty a couple of weeks ago we went to a gig at An Teach Beag (now there's an exercise in pronunciation for anyone who has little experience of Irish!). It was a 2-piece band, but people could ask to join in. A bodhrán player did just that; the leader fixed him with a gimlet eye and said "only if you can play extremely well", and gave him a chance to try out a tune. After which little audition the bodhrán player was told that they'd let him know when he could join in, and as far as I know he didn't. I can only conclude that the band had long had its fill of bodhrán players from hell, and anyway a dead give-away was that the bodhrán in this instance looked brand-new.
The next evening I was down at An Teach Beag for another "and friends" gig, this time taking my fiddle with me. The band was a whistle (the leader), a box, a guitar and a bodhrán. I listened to them for half an hour or so and when the leader came up to the bar I went up to him and said I had my fiddle with me and could I ...? The words were barely out of my mouth when he grabbed my arm and said "Good man! For God's sake sit yourself down between me and that bodhrán!" It didn't take long to discover why. That bodhrán was excessively loud. I could barely hear myself or the other players. Ten minutes later the leader indicated to the bodhrán player that his services were no longer required. The remainder of the evening then passed with good music making.
Fortunately, most bodhrán players in sessions are experienced enough to know that their job is to accompany and not to drown everyone else out.
Slainte, we have a lady bodhránist in Bristol who not only knows the tunes but on occasion can start off a tune set.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: Now, heres a question!!
I once sat next to a bodhranista who was drowning out most of the players and I simply pointed out to him that I couldn't hear half of the players and would he mind playing quieter. He complied. Of course I should mention that I am freakishly large and look a lot like a trained concertina-playing bear. It's possible he was actually being polite though too I suppose.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by Phantom Button