The Session >> Discussions >> Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
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Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I've seen my share of TM playing on the simple-system flute and done a bit myself, but can't for the life of me imagine how a classical player, however clever, could have been able to play fast in every key or series of chromatic runs the classical repertoire might have thrown at him, on the standard ITM flute in D. Maybe he would have had other flutes beside him in other keys, to pick up as needed; maybe flute parts were kept in the reasonable range of the instrument; I just don't know.
I've never met a soul who plays classical music on these flutes, though playing classical and earlier music on period instruments has caught on in some circles. So - Any ideas as to how classical players used the simple-system in c19, and whether any use it for classical these days ?
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I too, have pondered this question. I'm always at a loss when strangers to ITM approach me during a session and ask me about my (simple system) instrument. I think I'm giving them the true history, and they seem to believe me, but there's always this haunt in my mind about how, before Boehm, concert flautists actually pulled it off.
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I play baroque music on my simple system flute. It's hard, but just takes some getting used to. (and you're right, runs are terrible, just try playing klezmer with one!) However at the time, that's all they had, and the simple system flute was definitely a step up from no keys at all. So if that was what you were trained with... I don't think it would be that bad. (I'm assuming you mean flutes with open holes and a few keys here -- I don't think it's possible on flutes with no keys)
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Should note also that most of the flute concertos in the late baroque and early classical period were written in either D or G with the occasional accidental thrown in. Still wouldn't be terribly easy though!
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
They were just very good musicians, as professional orchestral players always are. By listening to the music in the order it developed, you can see the players being progressively stretched (compare Mozart's clarinet quintet and Weber's clarinet concerto, 20 years apart), then a change in technology happens which opens the virtuoso music to merely excellent players, at the same time as allowing composers to explore new possibilities.
The baroque flute had a single key for E flat, which was the only note you couldn't get be cross- fingering.
Some of the notes that came out of the cross-fingering were pretty unconvincing, and gradually keys got added as springs got better (Huntsman steel instead of brass). The problem was that keys don't seal very well- the more keys, the more likely you are to get leaks. This was solved from about 1820 onwards as improved pads were invented.
The biggest revolution was Boehm's in the 1840s-50s, when he set out to create a flute that was acoustically rational. He abandoned the tapered bore for a cylindrical one, and made holes of the right size in the right place. This made it unfingerable, so he invented the key mechanism that bears his name so that human hands could get round it.
So you could argue that in part the Classical period was made possible by the industrial revoluion, and Romantic music by the scientific revolution.
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Prior to the eight-key flute, which is completely chromatic, there was very little repertoire for flute. Most early music that would later be handled by the flute was played on recorder.
Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist.
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
There was a lot of Baroque and early Classical flute music. Think of Quantz, flute virtuoso and teacher to Frederick the Great. Before his time, Telemann wrote flute concertos before 1720, Vivaldi in 1729, and there were many others. The flute at that time would have only had the E flat and perhaps low C# keys, and even in Mozart's day they had only 4 keys.
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist."
Out of my element here, but have you heard of a composer named Beethoven?
I mean, it would be a bit of a stretch for him to write music for an instrument that hadn't been invented yet.
Rick Wilson's Oldflutes.com has exhaustive info on...old flutes, and a few recordings of Rick's flute trio, playing pieces by Kuhlauh [sp?] and the like on the old type of flute.
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Prior to the eight-key flute, which is completely chromatic, there was very little repertoire for flute. Most early music that would later be handled by the flute was played on recorder."
This is simply not true. The flute, in fact, replaced and displaced the recorder during the later Baroque era. It's during the Romantic era (the time of the 8-key flute) that the solo repertoire takes a dive, and what remains is very bird-like. (Lots of 3rd octave chirping.) Granted, a lot of the Baroque repertoire isn't instrument-specific, but lots of it works very well on the flute.
Interestingly, especially prior to the Romantic era, when the concept of the virtuouso really bloomed, the flute was one of the most popular amateur instruments. This would have been primarily on one or maybe four-keyed instruments. (Lots of the earlier repertoire is less technically demanding than later works.)
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist."
False statement. What do you think simple system flutes were used for prior to the rise and eventual dominance of the Boehm system flute (basically until the turn of the 20th century in some places)? New-Age Balinese Bebop? What instrument do you think the Mozart flute concerto soloist played, back in the day? The sousaphone?
Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I've seen my share of TM playing on the simple-system flute and done a bit myself, but can't for the life of me imagine how a classical player, however clever, could have been able to play fast in every key or series of chromatic runs the classical repertoire might have thrown at him, on the standard ITM flute in D. Maybe he would have had other flutes beside him in other keys, to pick up as needed; maybe flute parts were kept in the reasonable range of the instrument; I just don't know.
I've never met a soul who plays classical music on these flutes, though playing classical and earlier music on period instruments has caught on in some circles. So - Any ideas as to how classical players used the simple-system in c19, and whether any use it for classical these days ?
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by nicholas
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I too, have pondered this question. I'm always at a loss when strangers to ITM approach me during a session and ask me about my (simple system) instrument. I think I'm giving them the true history, and they seem to believe me, but there's always this haunt in my mind about how, before Boehm, concert flautists actually pulled it off.
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by jtrout
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
I play baroque music on my simple system flute. It's hard, but just takes some getting used to. (and you're right, runs are terrible, just try playing klezmer with one!) However at the time, that's all they had, and the simple system flute was definitely a step up from no keys at all. So if that was what you were trained with... I don't think it would be that bad. (I'm assuming you mean flutes with open holes and a few keys here -- I don't think it's possible on flutes with no keys)
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by Kriana
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Should note also that most of the flute concertos in the late baroque and early classical period were written in either D or G with the occasional accidental thrown in. Still wouldn't be terribly easy though!
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by mduthie_kcb
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
They were just very good musicians, as professional orchestral players always are. By listening to the music in the order it developed, you can see the players being progressively stretched (compare Mozart's clarinet quintet and Weber's clarinet concerto, 20 years apart), then a change in technology happens which opens the virtuoso music to merely excellent players, at the same time as allowing composers to explore new possibilities.
The baroque flute had a single key for E flat, which was the only note you couldn't get be cross- fingering.
Some of the notes that came out of the cross-fingering were pretty unconvincing, and gradually keys got added as springs got better (Huntsman steel instead of brass). The problem was that keys don't seal very well- the more keys, the more likely you are to get leaks. This was solved from about 1820 onwards as improved pads were invented.
The biggest revolution was Boehm's in the 1840s-50s, when he set out to create a flute that was acoustically rational. He abandoned the tapered bore for a cylindrical one, and made holes of the right size in the right place. This made it unfingerable, so he invented the key mechanism that bears his name so that human hands could get round it.
So you could argue that in part the Classical period was made possible by the industrial revoluion, and Romantic music by the scientific revolution.
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"How did they manage it?"
Practice, loads of it. It was their job so they had the time. Put in 5-6 hours a day and you'll soon see a difference.
Tommy
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by tompipes
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
Prior to the eight-key flute, which is completely chromatic, there was very little repertoire for flute. Most early music that would later be handled by the flute was played on recorder.
Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist.
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by Ailin
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
There was a lot of Baroque and early Classical flute music. Think of Quantz, flute virtuoso and teacher to Frederick the Great. Before his time, Telemann wrote flute concertos before 1720, Vivaldi in 1729, and there were many others. The flute at that time would have only had the E flat and perhaps low C# keys, and even in Mozart's day they had only 4 keys.
http://www.gruk.net/lars/quantz_fingerings.html gives Quantz's cross- fingered chromatic scales, but don't expect them to work on modern simple flutes.
# Posted on August 2nd 2006 by LastToFinish
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist."
Out of my element here, but have you heard of a composer named Beethoven?
I mean, it would be a bit of a stretch for him to write music for an instrument that hadn't been invented yet.
Rick Wilson's Oldflutes.com has exhaustive info on...old flutes, and a few recordings of Rick's flute trio, playing pieces by Kuhlauh [sp?] and the like on the old type of flute.
# Posted on August 2nd 2006 by KLR
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Prior to the eight-key flute, which is completely chromatic, there was very little repertoire for flute. Most early music that would later be handled by the flute was played on recorder."
This is simply not true. The flute, in fact, replaced and displaced the recorder during the later Baroque era. It's during the Romantic era (the time of the 8-key flute) that the solo repertoire takes a dive, and what remains is very bird-like. (Lots of 3rd octave chirping.) Granted, a lot of the Baroque repertoire isn't instrument-specific, but lots of it works very well on the flute.
Interestingly, especially prior to the Romantic era, when the concept of the virtuouso really bloomed, the flute was one of the most popular amateur instruments. This would have been primarily on one or maybe four-keyed instruments. (Lots of the earlier repertoire is less technically demanding than later works.)
# Posted on August 4th 2006 by mcswiss
Re: Classical music on simple-system keyed flutes: how did they manage it?
"Simple-system flutes have never been used much for classical music, and I know of none that featured the flautist as a soloist."
False statement. What do you think simple system flutes were used for prior to the rise and eventual dominance of the Boehm system flute (basically until the turn of the 20th century in some places)? New-Age Balinese Bebop? What instrument do you think the Mozart flute concerto soloist played, back in the day? The sousaphone?
# Posted on August 7th 2006 by mcswiss