Watched a very interesting show - Céird an Cheoil - on TG4 the other night and was fascinated to learn that Barney McKenna of Dubliners fame was the first to use the GDAE tuning on the banjo. I had thought it had been around for yonks before that.
Yer man Cussens [Clareen banjos] and other banjo illuminati were explaining that the banjo came into the Irish tradition from the fact that many Irish guys joined 'minstrel bands', a la Black and White Minstrels in the states and then brought the instrument into diddley dee. But the tuning was CGDA. Am I the only fluter who was unaware of how recent the banjo joined the music??
Aye Breandan, & here’s the Gospel, according to Mick Maloney, a man who really knows his ‘Banjo’ stuff!
“Bearded, affable Barney McKenna, ace tenor banjoist in the group, became a household name among traditional music fans. [Note 6.]
Barney's skill and wide visibility helped bring scores of new devotees to the instrument, almost all tuning their banjos as Barney did—GDAE, an octave below the fiddle.”
Here's another reference Breandan: ”Barney McKenna, a tenor banjoist of The Dubliners, first popularized the use of the banjo for Irish tunes. Younger players tenaciously followed McKenna’s work and copied just about everything he did, from his playing style to his GDAE tuning.”
he wanted a mandolin but couldnt afford one i belive, and he got a banjo from somewhere and tuned it like a fiddle. i belive there was some cases of the banjo being tuned gdae before barney but the artsts werent well known , barney is the one who brought it to the world.
CGDA: I wonder if that's the best tuning for maximum effect with the strings that were available in the 1920's? GDAE is a logical tuning and great for melody but it might not have sounded much good then on a tenor banjo. Perhaps it had to wait its time until modern string technology came along (and plastic heads for a brighter sound).
The cgda tuning is the best tuning for maximum effect playing chords and rythms. which is what its job was when developed at the turn of the century. Dixieland players still tune that way. The tenor and plectrum banjo where both developed at the turn of the century as rythm instruments for small jazz ensembles. See for yourself try playing a difficult chord passage with maj7's or 9's in octave tuning. Then tune up to cgda and take a stab at The Bucks. Both tunings have their place. The Irish guy's that joined minstrel bands mostly played 5 string banjoes, an entirely different instrument. There are Irish picking patterns on the 5 string today that are closely related to American frailing traditions, not to mention Pete Seegers influences on modern 5 sting playng in both American and Irish folk music..
thats not true it dosent matter if youve learnt a tune on a gdae banjo u can play exaclty the same tune on a cgda banjo with the same frets. all that would happen is that the tune would be in a different key. thats all that gerry o conor does he dosent re learn the tune he merely plays the same positions on the cgda banjo and the key is raised higer. For example the maid behind the bar on the gdae banjo would be in D and on the cgda banjo in G. Both banjos are tuned with each string being a fifth above the other so it dosent mater really. Just depends on whether you want a high pitch or a low pitch. As for chords yes you are right chords would be easier on a cgda banjo , yet again however u could still play the same the chord shapes u would play on a gdae banjo on a cgda banjo but u would obvisuly come out with different chords. For example on a gdae banjo when holding down the G chord you would come out with a C chord on the CGDA banjo.
Playing "Bucks" is not all that hard on a cgda banjo, just capo up two and you have daeb which is the same as the first three strings of GDAE plus the B note as the first string (in order 1 to 4 are GDAE). In fact, playing any tune that is in the range of a whistle is easier because you don't have to reach for the high B note.
GO'C and several others do this with the cgda tuning. They may also go up five frets with a capo if a high sound is desired.
The Flanagan brothers played tunes on a banjo tuned cgda as did several other American-Irish dance bands of the '20s and '30s (or later) since those were the prevailing instruments for dance bands. If you listen to some of the old bands you can hear all sorts of instuments including Sax and drums.
Also, GDAE tuning was known in the States (where most of the tenor banjo playing was from about 1915 to the early '40s) but used as an alternative, mostly by rag and blues style players. It was not as popular for the tenor as the standard tuning was and I doubt that a tuning from 30 years prior had much influence on Irish music.
MIck Moloney has verified that minstrel shows were known in Ireland in the 1840's and that the leading musicians of the time would have seen them, but the five string really came along with the folk revival in the '60s and the primary users in Irish folk music were copying (or learning from) Pete Seeger. Look at all the banjos from that time and they are often the long neck Seeger style. The techniques used (mostly strumming techniques) were right out of his book.
I've got a nice Kyser capo from here: http://www.stringmail.co.uk/Fretted/mandolin.htm which suits tenor banjo as well. Pricey at £16.50 but worth it. A bit hard to find in the dark: I lost it in the pub we play in on Mondays but found it on the floor the following week - good job they don't sweep up or anything.
If you want chords this delightfully uncomplicated site gives 3 printable sheets of mandolin chords - same as GDAE tenor banjo but an octave higher: http://home.inreach.com/jsherida/katie/mandolin.html
Both tunings are suited for 17 and 19 fret banjos, it is just harder to find the right combination for the shorter neck because they tend to be more sensitive to string gauge. I use 42-12 on my short necked Little Wonder, but it might do even better with a 44 G string. You have to experiment to find out.
The original tenor banjos were 17 fret tuned to cgda. the neck length was changed because the longer necks tend to have a sound that is both louder and cuts through the band noise better. With proper string gauges, any banjo can sound fairly decent in either tuning.
I'm wondering if anyone might know of any instruction books for Irish tenor banjo played with the tuning of CGDA. I'm learning that Irish music is played with a different instrument and tuning, but I was hoping I might learn how to play some Irish music on an instrument on which I'm already familiar.
Thanks..
'Irish' Tenor Banjo
'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Watched a very interesting show - Céird an Cheoil - on TG4 the other night and was fascinated to learn that Barney McKenna of Dubliners fame was the first to use the GDAE tuning on the banjo. I had thought it had been around for yonks before that.
Yer man Cussens [Clareen banjos] and other banjo illuminati were explaining that the banjo came into the Irish tradition from the fact that many Irish guys joined 'minstrel bands', a la Black and White Minstrels in the states and then brought the instrument into diddley dee. But the tuning was CGDA. Am I the only fluter who was unaware of how recent the banjo joined the music??
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by breandan
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
I didn't know that McKenna was the first to use GDAE, I knew that it was originally tuned CGDA but I didn't know whose idea it was to change that.
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by Why Bother?
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Aye Breandan, & here’s the Gospel, according to Mick Maloney, a man who really knows his ‘Banjo’ stuff!
“Bearded, affable Barney McKenna, ace tenor banjoist in the group, became a household name among traditional music fans. [Note 6.]
Barney's skill and wide visibility helped bring scores of new devotees to the instrument, almost all tuning their banjos as Barney did—GDAE, an octave below the fiddle.”
http://www.standingstones.com/banjo.html
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Ooops, sorry for the typo Mick - 'Moloney'!
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Here's another reference Breandan: ”Barney McKenna, a tenor banjoist of The Dubliners, first popularized the use of the banjo for Irish tunes. Younger players tenaciously followed McKenna’s work and copied just about everything he did, from his playing style to his GDAE tuning.”
http://www.celtic-instruments.com/stringed/banjos/index.html
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
he wanted a mandolin but couldnt afford one i belive, and he got a banjo from somewhere and tuned it like a fiddle. i belive there was some cases of the banjo being tuned gdae before barney but the artsts werent well known , barney is the one who brought it to the world.
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
All interesting stuff - Thanks Dick.
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by breandan
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
CGDA: I wonder if that's the best tuning for maximum effect with the strings that were available in the 1920's? GDAE is a logical tuning and great for melody but it might not have sounded much good then on a tenor banjo. Perhaps it had to wait its time until modern string technology came along (and plastic heads for a brighter sound).
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by RichardB
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
The cgda tuning is the best tuning for maximum effect playing chords and rythms. which is what its job was when developed at the turn of the century. Dixieland players still tune that way. The tenor and plectrum banjo where both developed at the turn of the century as rythm instruments for small jazz ensembles. See for yourself try playing a difficult chord passage with maj7's or 9's in octave tuning. Then tune up to cgda and take a stab at The Bucks. Both tunings have their place. The Irish guy's that joined minstrel bands mostly played 5 string banjoes, an entirely different instrument. There are Irish picking patterns on the 5 string today that are closely related to American frailing traditions, not to mention Pete Seegers influences on modern 5 sting playng in both American and Irish folk music..
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by fife
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
thats not true it dosent matter if youve learnt a tune on a gdae banjo u can play exaclty the same tune on a cgda banjo with the same frets. all that would happen is that the tune would be in a different key. thats all that gerry o conor does he dosent re learn the tune he merely plays the same positions on the cgda banjo and the key is raised higer. For example the maid behind the bar on the gdae banjo would be in D and on the cgda banjo in G. Both banjos are tuned with each string being a fifth above the other so it dosent mater really. Just depends on whether you want a high pitch or a low pitch. As for chords yes you are right chords would be easier on a cgda banjo , yet again however u could still play the same the chord shapes u would play on a gdae banjo on a cgda banjo but u would obvisuly come out with different chords. For example on a gdae banjo when holding down the G chord you would come out with a C chord on the CGDA banjo.
stace
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
you are right however if u wanted to play the bucks in the same key on a cgda banjo as a gdae one then the tune really would be harder.
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Playing "Bucks" is not all that hard on a cgda banjo, just capo up two and you have daeb which is the same as the first three strings of GDAE plus the B note as the first string (in order 1 to 4 are GDAE). In fact, playing any tune that is in the range of a whistle is easier because you don't have to reach for the high B note.
GO'C and several others do this with the cgda tuning. They may also go up five frets with a capo if a high sound is desired.
The Flanagan brothers played tunes on a banjo tuned cgda as did several other American-Irish dance bands of the '20s and '30s (or later) since those were the prevailing instruments for dance bands. If you listen to some of the old bands you can hear all sorts of instuments including Sax and drums.
Also, GDAE tuning was known in the States (where most of the tenor banjo playing was from about 1915 to the early '40s) but used as an alternative, mostly by rag and blues style players. It was not as popular for the tenor as the standard tuning was and I doubt that a tuning from 30 years prior had much influence on Irish music.
MIck Moloney has verified that minstrel shows were known in Ireland in the 1840's and that the leading musicians of the time would have seen them, but the five string really came along with the folk revival in the '60s and the primary users in Irish folk music were copying (or learning from) Pete Seeger. Look at all the banjos from that time and they are often the long neck Seeger style. The techniques used (mostly strumming techniques) were right out of his book.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Aach!
In order are 4 through 1, GDAE. No wonder I am confused!
<G>
Mike Keyes
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by mikeyes
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Hi Brendan and everyone have you some info on chords for GDAE tuning and what size capo do you need for a banjo?
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by banjoian
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
I've got a nice Kyser capo from here: http://www.stringmail.co.uk/Fretted/mandolin.htm which suits tenor banjo as well. Pricey at £16.50 but worth it. A bit hard to find in the dark: I lost it in the pub we play in on Mondays but found it on the floor the following week - good job they don't sweep up or anything.
If you want chords this delightfully uncomplicated site gives 3 printable sheets of mandolin chords - same as GDAE tenor banjo but an octave higher: http://home.inreach.com/jsherida/katie/mandolin.html
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by RichardB
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
thanks Richard for that info
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by banjoian
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
I think the GDAE tuning works better on the short neck tenor ,and the CGDA may be more suitable for the longer necks.
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by griffith
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
i have the same kyser capo hehe yes it is good but very dark.
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by S.McMullen
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
Both tunings are suited for 17 and 19 fret banjos, it is just harder to find the right combination for the shorter neck because they tend to be more sensitive to string gauge. I use 42-12 on my short necked Little Wonder, but it might do even better with a 44 G string. You have to experiment to find out.
The original tenor banjos were 17 fret tuned to cgda. the neck length was changed because the longer necks tend to have a sound that is both louder and cuts through the band noise better. With proper string gauges, any banjo can sound fairly decent in either tuning.
Mike Keyes
http://www.banjosessions.com
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by mikeyes
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
I play a 1917 short scale Vega Whyte Laydie with 12,18,28,38 guage strings, sounds and plays great.
Dave Hanson
# Posted on January 1st 2007 by Dave Hanson
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
That should have been 1914.
# Posted on January 1st 2007 by Dave Hanson
Re: 'Irish' Tenor Banjo
I'm wondering if anyone might know of any instruction books for Irish tenor banjo played with the tuning of CGDA. I'm learning that Irish music is played with a different instrument and tuning, but I was hoping I might learn how to play some Irish music on an instrument on which I'm already familiar.
Thanks..
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Virgil