Ok, so maybe this is a silly question, but what are your
opinions on the violin vs. fiddle debate? Are there
actually violins that aren't meant for fiddle music, or
would an exellent quality violin sound just as great
with a reel? Is it mostly the strings and bow that
distinguish a fiddler from a violinist or do those even
matter? I'm looking for a new fiddle on my own for the
first time (a terrifying prospect, but quite exiting!!!!!!)
and wondering if I should only consider "fiddlemakers"
or if a great "violin" would make just as good a "fiddle".
The discussion about the etymology of “fiddle” and “violin” is interesting but the current fact is that they are different names for the same instrument. Are there luthiers who build instruments just for the fiddle market? I think I’ve heard of a few, but 99+% of the instruments played by fiddlers were built as “violins.”
Setup, bow, rosin, etc., are personal choices, whether you’re a fiddler or a violinist.
I wouldn't think that one violin or another would make a difference for playing fiddle music. The action and cut of the bridge would be different, but not the instrument itself. It's all about the attitude of playing, don't you think?
You know, I've always wanted to play _Alexander's Hornpipe_ on Itzahk Perlman's "Soil" Stradivarius; I'm sure it would sound wonderful.
Somehow, though, I doubt I've got anywhere near the skill or talent to bring out the full beauty of what that fiddle is capable of. (BTW, Itzahk does call it a fiddle!)
That particular instrument is supposed to be the "best sounding" of all of the true Strads. It certainly sounds wonderful when he plays it. And, although it's probably played every great piece of Classical Music in it's lifetime, it's also played klezmer and other folk musics, too.
All of the features that make a great violin make a great fiddle; responsiveness, tone and overtones, etc....
As has been previously posted, setup will vary to the taste of the player but the qualities of a great (or even good) instrument will shine no matter what's played on it.
It's a shame that the word "fiddle" has a connotation of inferiority versus "violin." Same instrument, and a really good fiddler (say, Martin Hayes, with his gorgeous tone--other examples abound) is a master musician by any standard.
But I saw that some American organization's program for a Martin Hayes concert called it "Celtic violin" music. (I know, I know--fingernails-on-the-blackboard, for some of you.)
The great Scottish composer of fiddle tunes, James Scott Skinner, played a Guarneri instrument. A rose by any other name....
Play it first before y ou have the bridge cut - no matter the style, the important thing is that you've got something you like (my bridge is still classical and I've never had a problem with ornaments/double stops). No one's going to be checking your bridge to see if you have real trad cred.
I can personally attest to the fact that playing fiddle music on a Guarneri is absolutley fantastically rockin' awesome. It's highly unlikely that I'll have an opportunity to do so a second time, but for ten minutes...wow.
Every classical player I know has called their instrument a fiddle a few times. They kinda do it to be cute...not sure how we should feel about that.
If you can, it's nice to bring a friend who can play the instrument for you, so you can get an idea of what it sounds like from a distance. Most shop owners will do that, too.
But after all that rambling, the bottom line is to try as many instruments as you can and buy the one you like (that you can almost afford).
Hey skellington, did you ever hear that story about an old Irish fiddler who got a chance to try a classical virtuoso's million-dollar Strad (not knowing what it was)? Punch line: "I don't think much of the fiddle, but I like your bow."
But seriously, I'm jealous of your ten minutes with a Guarneri. I am no expert on violins by any means, but I once happened to hear what I thought must be an extra good instrument. The guy told me that it was made by a student of Guarnerius named Guadgnini (sp?). Tragic, that I have so much more taste than money.... ;>}
Just yesterday I was in a violin shop playing just about everything they had, from $600 to $10,000 instruments, to get a better feel for what I like in a violin, since I've always played on the same instrument. I must say, the nicest sounding to play trad on were an old Scottish made fiddle with an enormous, gutsy, open sound and a Hungarian fiddle which the shopkeep said was distinctively gypsy style in construction and tone. It also had that openness, almost an indescribable kind of ringing that many of the others didn't have. Mind you, the instruments in the ten thousand dollar range sounded great, but they just sounded like really nice violins, and didnt have that extra zing. Id say look for more open and dark rather than focused and bright. But thats only my taste.
I had to buy my first fiddle recently. I went to a violin dealer and a violin maker/dealer. In each shop I asked the person to play a range of types and priced instruments ($600 - $6,000) and I listened without looking at labels. I then selected the ones I felt sounded good to me (I was looking for a quieter mellow sound), then I played on them - THEN I looked at the label.
Interestingly I selected an expensive 100-year old German fiddle from one shop and a brand new cheaper-priced violin from the other. I got the new one as it was superior to the old one when played next to each other; brand new Chinese copy Italian make but with a lovely mellow sound and much easier to play than my last as the strings are closer to the finger board.
Other more experienced players have commented on how good it sounds and feels. Of course, this violin had been set up by the violin maker, who has a good ear methinks. He is in Brisbane - Ilya Grawert.
So... I think it is important to not be swayed by price or anyone's sales talk - just listen, play and choose the one that sounds right to your ear (and have fun as you get to try out really expensive ones too!). I am a beginner but am an expert in what sounds right to me!
One of the reasons I loved the Guarneri was that it had that full, low, throaty sound (Mon dieu dans qui je ne crois pas - it sounds like I'm about to start writing fiddle erotica). I've had violin makers describe Guaneri's as having a masculine voice compared to a Strad's feminine voice, or if you prefer less socially dangerous descriptors, the strad has a mellower tone that's very even across all four strings; the Guarneris have a much more open, gutsy low end. It took quite a bit of playing, too - you couldn't be hesitant with it. if you really wanted to hear it's real sound.
Personally I play a cheap chinese fiddle, because it had the best sound in my price range (under 2000, at the time). I lucked out - I bought it new, and it's now ten years old, aging wonderfully, and responds well to different bows and luthier 'tweaking'. I absolutley love it and it's name is baby, but I still look at other fiddles...
MickRay, I'm tempted to pretend I missed your joke and ask "Well, what kind of bow was it? Brothers torte?" Btw, the shop that was brave enough to let a bunch of teenagers play a guarneri is in our neck of the woods (Seattle).
A friend of mine likes to say that the difference between a fiddle and violin is that nobody minds if you spill beer on a fiddle.
Seriously though, this is something that I’ve been putting a lot of thought into lately as I’ve just started working at a nice violin shop. Basically a good violin will make a good fiddle and there is a huge range of instruments out there to choose from. That said, it seems like for the most part when I put an instrument into the hands of a fiddler that they are drawn to a particularly focused and dark sound with out a lot of overtones.
But everyone is different. Right now I’m working with two nearly opposite Celtic players. One is looking for an instrument that will draw the listener in, she not concerned too much about being heard at a session and is looking for the sweetest tone possible. The other player leads a lot of sessions and wants something that is very powerful with a unique sound that can cut through the din of a barroom.
I’ve also just started bringing instruments from the shop to sessions. It’s interesting that some of the instruments that I think are great in the shop, just don’t measure up at a crowded session. Most shops will let you take instruments out on trial and you’ll definitely want to do that to see how the fiddle will perform in different environments.
Also, here is a great article on buying stringed instruments:
I play both trad. fiddle and classical music and use the same fiddle/violin for both. I have a fairly high bridge, classical style, but have no problem playing Irish trad with this, indeed if I play someone elses fiddle with a lower bridge, it does't feel right, so it's partly a matter of personal preference or what you get used to.
The only way to choose a fiddle is to fall in love with it. The only fiddle I've ever regretted buying is the one which I was persuaded to buy as the 'sensible choice'. I no longer own it.
I'm suprised no one mentioned the old Appalachian addage: The difference between a violin and a fiddle is the player. The violinist wears shoes and the fiddler doesn't.
The etymology of both words, as I understand it, is the Latin word Vitula, which was one of the many Roman holidays. Vitula, related to the word Vitus, was a goddess of life or high spirits. Bowed instruments were played at the celebrations, although they weren't very loud and were used for rhythm, not melody. To my ears the German and Celtic word Fiddle sound closer to the source, Vitula, than the French word Violin. The French have what has been called a Lazy Tounge, more soft vowels and less hard constanants. But I prefer the story that a fiddle is a violin that's had beer spilled on it.
hahaha, that's good. nobodys' ever spilled beer on my fiddle,so guess it's still a violin! still, I was playing my fiddle a while back and somebody spilled beer on my SHOES soo...
violins vs. fiddles
violins vs. fiddles
Ok, so maybe this is a silly question, but what are your
opinions on the violin vs. fiddle debate? Are there
actually violins that aren't meant for fiddle music, or
would an exellent quality violin sound just as great
with a reel? Is it mostly the strings and bow that
distinguish a fiddler from a violinist or do those even
matter? I'm looking for a new fiddle on my own for the
first time (a terrifying prospect, but quite exiting!!!!!!)
and wondering if I should only consider "fiddlemakers"
or if a great "violin" would make just as good a "fiddle".
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by BE
Re: violins vs. fiddles
The discussion about the etymology of “fiddle” and “violin” is interesting but the current fact is that they are different names for the same instrument. Are there luthiers who build instruments just for the fiddle market? I think I’ve heard of a few, but 99+% of the instruments played by fiddlers were built as “violins.”
Setup, bow, rosin, etc., are personal choices, whether you’re a fiddler or a violinist.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: violins vs. fiddles
I wouldn't think that one violin or another would make a difference for playing fiddle music. The action and cut of the bridge would be different, but not the instrument itself. It's all about the attitude of playing, don't you think?
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by irishfiddler32
Re: violins vs. fiddles
You know, I've always wanted to play _Alexander's Hornpipe_ on Itzahk Perlman's "Soil" Stradivarius; I'm sure it would sound wonderful.
Somehow, though, I doubt I've got anywhere near the skill or talent to bring out the full beauty of what that fiddle is capable of. (BTW, Itzahk does call it a fiddle!)
That particular instrument is supposed to be the "best sounding" of all of the true Strads. It certainly sounds wonderful when he plays it. And, although it's probably played every great piece of Classical Music in it's lifetime, it's also played klezmer and other folk musics, too.
All of the features that make a great violin make a great fiddle; responsiveness, tone and overtones, etc....
As has been previously posted, setup will vary to the taste of the player but the qualities of a great (or even good) instrument will shine no matter what's played on it.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: violins vs. fiddles
It's a shame that the word "fiddle" has a connotation of inferiority versus "violin." Same instrument, and a really good fiddler (say, Martin Hayes, with his gorgeous tone--other examples abound) is a master musician by any standard.
But I saw that some American organization's program for a Martin Hayes concert called it "Celtic violin" music. (I know, I know--fingernails-on-the-blackboard, for some of you.)
The great Scottish composer of fiddle tunes, James Scott Skinner, played a Guarneri instrument. A rose by any other name....
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by John Galt
Re: violins vs. fiddles
What do you mean, the cut of the bridge? would
I need to take my new "violin" to a shop to
do somthing to the bridge???
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by BE
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Yes, you might want to get your new violin adjusted.
Basically--
Classical setup: high action (strings far up from the fingerboard) for louder volume, to compete with a whole orchestra
Irish setup: lower action (strings closer to the fingerboard) for quicker/easier fingering, quieter volume
Old-timey setup: lower action and the curve of the bridge somewhat flattened, for easier double-stops
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by John Galt
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Play it first before y ou have the bridge cut - no matter the style, the important thing is that you've got something you like (my bridge is still classical and I've never had a problem with ornaments/double stops). No one's going to be checking your bridge to see if you have real trad cred.
I can personally attest to the fact that playing fiddle music on a Guarneri is absolutley fantastically rockin' awesome. It's highly unlikely that I'll have an opportunity to do so a second time, but for ten minutes...wow.
Every classical player I know has called their instrument a fiddle a few times. They kinda do it to be cute...not sure how we should feel about that.
If you can, it's nice to bring a friend who can play the instrument for you, so you can get an idea of what it sounds like from a distance. Most shop owners will do that, too.
But after all that rambling, the bottom line is to try as many instruments as you can and buy the one you like (that you can almost afford).
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by skellington
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Hey skellington, did you ever hear that story about an old Irish fiddler who got a chance to try a classical virtuoso's million-dollar Strad (not knowing what it was)? Punch line: "I don't think much of the fiddle, but I like your bow."
But seriously, I'm jealous of your ten minutes with a Guarneri. I am no expert on violins by any means, but I once happened to hear what I thought must be an extra good instrument. The guy told me that it was made by a student of Guarnerius named Guadgnini (sp?). Tragic, that I have so much more taste than money.... ;>}
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by John Galt
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Just yesterday I was in a violin shop playing just about everything they had, from $600 to $10,000 instruments, to get a better feel for what I like in a violin, since I've always played on the same instrument. I must say, the nicest sounding to play trad on were an old Scottish made fiddle with an enormous, gutsy, open sound and a Hungarian fiddle which the shopkeep said was distinctively gypsy style in construction and tone. It also had that openness, almost an indescribable kind of ringing that many of the others didn't have. Mind you, the instruments in the ten thousand dollar range sounded great, but they just sounded like really nice violins, and didnt have that extra zing. Id say look for more open and dark rather than focused and bright. But thats only my taste.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Splendid Isolation
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Same instument.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: violins vs. fiddles
you dont hear the flinstones sing "We'll have a gay old time" anymore. Too many connotations.
I object to a flat bridge as I play a lot of baroque and jazz as well, a flat bridge and boroque is just plain nasty.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Joze
Re: violins vs. fiddles
I had to buy my first fiddle recently. I went to a violin dealer and a violin maker/dealer. In each shop I asked the person to play a range of types and priced instruments ($600 - $6,000) and I listened without looking at labels. I then selected the ones I felt sounded good to me (I was looking for a quieter mellow sound), then I played on them - THEN I looked at the label.
Interestingly I selected an expensive 100-year old German fiddle from one shop and a brand new cheaper-priced violin from the other. I got the new one as it was superior to the old one when played next to each other; brand new Chinese copy Italian make but with a lovely mellow sound and much easier to play than my last as the strings are closer to the finger board.
Other more experienced players have commented on how good it sounds and feels. Of course, this violin had been set up by the violin maker, who has a good ear methinks. He is in Brisbane - Ilya Grawert.
So... I think it is important to not be swayed by price or anyone's sales talk - just listen, play and choose the one that sounds right to your ear (and have fun as you get to try out really expensive ones too!). I am a beginner but am an expert in what sounds right to me!
Good luck.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by jinksy
Re: violins vs. fiddles
One of the reasons I loved the Guarneri was that it had that full, low, throaty sound (Mon dieu dans qui je ne crois pas - it sounds like I'm about to start writing fiddle erotica). I've had violin makers describe Guaneri's as having a masculine voice compared to a Strad's feminine voice, or if you prefer less socially dangerous descriptors, the strad has a mellower tone that's very even across all four strings; the Guarneris have a much more open, gutsy low end. It took quite a bit of playing, too - you couldn't be hesitant with it. if you really wanted to hear it's real sound.
Personally I play a cheap chinese fiddle, because it had the best sound in my price range (under 2000, at the time). I lucked out - I bought it new, and it's now ten years old, aging wonderfully, and responds well to different bows and luthier 'tweaking'. I absolutley love it and it's name is baby, but I still look at other fiddles...
MickRay, I'm tempted to pretend I missed your joke and ask "Well, what kind of bow was it? Brothers torte?" Btw, the shop that was brave enough to let a bunch of teenagers play a guarneri is in our neck of the woods (Seattle).
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by skellington
Re: violins vs. fiddles
A friend of mine likes to say that the difference between a fiddle and violin is that nobody minds if you spill beer on a fiddle.
Seriously though, this is something that I’ve been putting a lot of thought into lately as I’ve just started working at a nice violin shop. Basically a good violin will make a good fiddle and there is a huge range of instruments out there to choose from. That said, it seems like for the most part when I put an instrument into the hands of a fiddler that they are drawn to a particularly focused and dark sound with out a lot of overtones.
But everyone is different. Right now I’m working with two nearly opposite Celtic players. One is looking for an instrument that will draw the listener in, she not concerned too much about being heard at a session and is looking for the sweetest tone possible. The other player leads a lot of sessions and wants something that is very powerful with a unique sound that can cut through the din of a barroom.
I’ve also just started bringing instruments from the shop to sessions. It’s interesting that some of the instruments that I think are great in the shop, just don’t measure up at a crowded session. Most shops will let you take instruments out on trial and you’ll definitely want to do that to see how the fiddle will perform in different environments.
Also, here is a great article on buying stringed instruments:
http://www.fritz-reuter.com/howtobuy/index.htm
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by iampeterfonda
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Thanks everyone; wish me luck!!!
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by BE
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Good luck! haha
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by possumawesome
Re: violins vs. fiddles
Yes, thank you Farewell.... no more elephant for you!!!
# Posted on July 30th 2006 by BE
Re: violins vs. fiddles
I play both trad. fiddle and classical music and use the same fiddle/violin for both. I have a fairly high bridge, classical style, but have no problem playing Irish trad with this, indeed if I play someone elses fiddle with a lower bridge, it does't feel right, so it's partly a matter of personal preference or what you get used to.
# Posted on July 31st 2006 by cathycook
Re: violins vs. fiddles
The only way to choose a fiddle is to fall in love with it. The only fiddle I've ever regretted buying is the one which I was persuaded to buy as the 'sensible choice'. I no longer own it.
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by c.g.
Re: violins vs. fiddles
same instrument, different voice
# Posted on August 1st 2006 by Lizzy
Re: violins vs. fiddles
I'm suprised no one mentioned the old Appalachian addage: The difference between a violin and a fiddle is the player. The violinist wears shoes and the fiddler doesn't.
So, just keep your shoes nearby!
# Posted on August 3rd 2006 by Meri-pixie
Re: violins vs. fiddles
The etymology of both words, as I understand it, is the Latin word Vitula, which was one of the many Roman holidays. Vitula, related to the word Vitus, was a goddess of life or high spirits. Bowed instruments were played at the celebrations, although they weren't very loud and were used for rhythm, not melody. To my ears the German and Celtic word Fiddle sound closer to the source, Vitula, than the French word Violin. The French have what has been called a Lazy Tounge, more soft vowels and less hard constanants. But I prefer the story that a fiddle is a violin that's had beer spilled on it.
# Posted on August 10th 2006 by huck
Re: violins vs. fiddles
hahaha, that's good. nobodys' ever spilled beer on my fiddle,so guess it's still a violin!
still, I was playing my fiddle a while back and somebody spilled beer on my SHOES soo...
# Posted on August 13th 2006 by BE