OK..so I read in my books that a first finger roll on the A string should go B D B A B. I can even make the same sound as is on the practice CD when this sequence is played slowly. However, when I try to bring it up to speed all I get is this mush of notes. It lacks that percussive rolling sound.
If you want a percussive sounding roll, the cut and open "notes" have to go by so fast that they're not notes--not audible pitches at all, just interruptions of the string's vibration.
So on a B roll, you hold the B note, then wind up your ring finger and lightly thwack the string up around the "d" area. But don't actually press the string to the fingerboard--simply swing through it with your finger. Same for the "A"--lift your index finger up a skooch--not off the string, and you really don't even let the string all the way off the fingerboard. Just come up enough that the B note isn't clear. And then land back down on the B.
It helps to practice just the cuts:
B{d}B
B{d{B
and just the lifts:
B{A}B
B{A}B
till both of those are easy and effortless. Then combine them.
Rolls are a left-hand ornament--the bowing doesn't change for them--no need to speed up or change bow direction. Some fiddlers sometimes lean a little into the bow on rolls for added pulse, but if your lefthand is doing its job, you can get all the pulse you need without added emphasis from the bow.
Also, do a search for "fiddle rolls" in the discussions here--lots of good advice froma wide range of folks.
I'm really struggling with quarter note rolls. Other people have told me they sound okay but I just don't "feel" them the way I do a cut or dotted quarter roll. They're still too rushed, they don't provide lift or interest, I don't know what the term is, they're just not effortless and fun for me. Yet. I hope "yet". I'll keep at it.
Until you mentioned that, I didn't really see the connection with roll on the fiddle compared to the whistle, but it's much the same, isn't it? I didn't think of it as a cut and a tap like I've learned on the whistle, but it makes more sense to me now. On the fiddle, I was thinking more of 5 notes instead of the same note interrupted twice.
Maybe my mind thinks in weird ways, but this has helped. Thanks!
Thanks for this Will; I have taken up the fiddle 6 months ago from guitar via mandolin. I am at that point where this is now becoming relevant to me.
Cheers
Some fiddlers do their rolls more "notey," where you can actually hear the pitch of the cuts. Brian Conway and Seamus Connolly spring to mind as examples of that approach. It's worth learning both types of rolls--percussive and notey--and then exploring the spectrum in between. But in the early stages, it may help to concentrate on one way or the other, rather than trying to learn both.
A key to the percussive cuts and rolls is to keep your left-hand fingers as relaxed and loose as possible. The percussive effect comes from the quickness of the strike, not so much the power behind it. It's amazing how percussive, "popping" a sound you can get with very light touches. The notey rolls are more bubbly sounding to my ear, and they require actually planting the finger above and coming completely off the "home" note to hear the note below, so they don't feel quite as loose and breezy as the percussive rolls.
"Short rolls"--in the space of a quarter note--can be a beast to do cleanly and consistently, especially at speed. It may help to think of starting the cut right on the beat that the quarter note fills, rather than lingering at all on the first note. (In contrast to a long roll, where you usually hold the first note a bit and then flutter through the cuts after the initial beat.) I don't use them as often as long rolls, and when I do, I have two approaches.
The first is to evenly space all five pulses of the roll, starting and ending on the "home" note: B{d}B{A}B.
To me, this feels like a slurred triplet ( B{d}B ) followed by a hammer-on ( {A}B ), but played so you hear three even pulses in the roll: DAH-BLAH-BAH.
The second approach is to start with the cut: {d}B{A}B. This feels more like a pull-off ( {d}B ) followed by a hammer-on ( {A}B ) and it sounds a little less cluttered. Also, in this type of short roll, I sometimes use the middle finger for the cut, for example: {g}f{e}f. This sort of roll sounds clipped to me: DLAH-AH-BAH. With the weight on the first and third syllables.
Hope this helps. There are many other ways to think about this stuff, and even other ways to physically do the rolls. This is just what I picked up from my primary influences on fiddle. Lots of good long and short rolls on recordings by Brian Conway, James Kelly, Seamus Connolly, Frankie Gavin, Gerry O'Connor, Brendan Mulivihill, etc. For the percussive approach, it's hard to do better than Kevin Burke.
many people do riffs, rolls and ornamentations and if you actually listen you quickly realise they often cant actually play, but depend on the odd right note and flashiness to get them through. IMO if you dont know how to play, bow, change volume etc. Learn those first.
Coming from the lady who plays mostly chords at sessions but learns more tunes every hour.
Good job, whoosis. That thing you said about treating those intervening notes as more interruptions of sound than as real notes is an important key to rolling on the whistle (or cutting for that matter). Understanding that was what helped me start bringing ornaments into my whistle playing (something I am still weak on). I am in awe of people like Mr. Connelly, who can also get those pulses to sound as notes in the short space available. In fact, one of the most awesome performances I ever saw was him playing with Joe Derrane (the box player ) a couple of years ago (another master of ornamentation)--and now that I think about it, I would recommend their "The Boston Edge" CD, which came out about a year ago, to anyone who wants to hear some fine and precise tune playing.
I think I'll get a yes in saying you can't beat maple pecan...mmmm, mmmm. What better notivation to practice for, eh? A roll for a roll... Of course, that could be taken in several ways...being also fond of meadows despite my grass allergies...
Funny that, I've always had to make them myself, mix, knead, leave it to rise, put it in the oven, let it rest ~ you know ~ give it time and patience and take things as they come. With thought and consideration it always comes out better in the end. If I rush it the damned things come out like rocks, lifeless, no spring to them. Sometimes I'll go out to appreciate someone else's roll, but I definitely prefer making them myself... But I've never had them just come to me, I always had to put some work into it, but the results were well worth the effort and patience.... Hot, yeah, hotfiddler, they are nice with some of that warmth still in them, so the butter melts as you tear into them...
hmmm.... well I've certaintly worked for my bread and butter(and my rolls) but at the end of the day, they just have to come out....... If that makes any sense whatsoever!!!!!!
Yes, lots of work--as Seamus Ennis said, "first of all you have to learn it, and first you must learn the talk, and then you must learn the grip, and after that you must learn the Truckly-How, and then you have the whole lot only just to keep on practicing it."
It sounds like you are (by your own analysis) lacking articulation (perhaps in general, rather than just on rolls). Articulation comes with practice, of course, but it's often just a matter of how fast/cleanly your fingers are hitting the string & fingerboard. You can improve this conveniently by just practicing stuff like "ABcdedcBABcdedcBA..." all in one long bow, all the while trying to make it as crisp as possible. Do this for ten minutes every day, and you'll see improvement quickly.
But in my experience, there are two ways that people often do rolls INCORRECTLY (on the fiddle). Avoid them both, and you're likely in good shape. They are:
1) Starting the roll too soon. (incorrect: "da-dik-a-da-daaaaaa", correct: "daaaaaa-dik-a-da-da" )
2) Leaving out the middle note
Both of these should probably stick out like a sore thumb to just about any reasonably practiced Irish trad musician.
Ceolgaelach, please feel free to email me a sound-clip of these rolls you are fighting with. I might be able to help.
Careful George, or we'll all send you soundclips for diagnosis.
Seriously, Ceolgaelach, take him up on that offer--George knows what he's doing. I've learned a lot (particularly about getting that beautiful lope on jigs, no matter what the pace) just from listening to George's playing.
Let me figure out how to send sound files and I'll do exactly that. Really hectic for me over the next several days...work, out of town etc. I'll work on this next week and see if I can get you a reasonable sound file.
Al Brown - You've raised another important point. The principles of fiddle ornamentation are basically similar to those of ornamentation on the wind instruments. I came to the fiddle after playing mandolin for 10 years, with the whistle as a longstanding concurrent pursuit. I found that, with a combination of mandolin fingering and whistle ornamentation, the basic fiddle ornaments came quite naturally to me.
BTW, I can't actually play the fiddle, I can just do cuts and rolls - and they're as sloppy as school dinners.
Ten years on putting rolls in all over the shop, and loving 'em maybe a tad too much, since I've only recently gone back to recording myself, I think that that rollaholicing over the years has paid off and they are now coming out sounding pretty sweet and curley ended. Definitely melodic rather than percussive, adding an interesting weaving quality to the tunes (hard to explain). But I think the trick is to hang onto the note you are weaving around the end of, and keep on doing them till they are just a part of your renditions of the tunes. Then they just find a comfortable place in your playing and you put them in naturally as they fit into the tune.
Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
OK..so I read in my books that a first finger roll on the A string should go B D B A B. I can even make the same sound as is on the practice CD when this sequence is played slowly. However, when I try to bring it up to speed all I get is this mush of notes. It lacks that percussive rolling sound.
Any hints? Is it in the bowing?
Driving me nuts!!!
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolgaelach
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
If you want a percussive sounding roll, the cut and open "notes" have to go by so fast that they're not notes--not audible pitches at all, just interruptions of the string's vibration.
So on a B roll, you hold the B note, then wind up your ring finger and lightly thwack the string up around the "d" area. But don't actually press the string to the fingerboard--simply swing through it with your finger. Same for the "A"--lift your index finger up a skooch--not off the string, and you really don't even let the string all the way off the fingerboard. Just come up enough that the B note isn't clear. And then land back down on the B.
It helps to practice just the cuts:
B{d}B
B{d{B
and just the lifts:
B{A}B
B{A}B
till both of those are easy and effortless. Then combine them.
Rolls are a left-hand ornament--the bowing doesn't change for them--no need to speed up or change bow direction. Some fiddlers sometimes lean a little into the bow on rolls for added pulse, but if your lefthand is doing its job, you can get all the pulse you need without added emphasis from the bow.
Also, do a search for "fiddle rolls" in the discussions here--lots of good advice froma wide range of folks.
Here's a previous thread to get you started.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/428
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
I'm really struggling with quarter note rolls. Other people have told me they sound okay but I just don't "feel" them the way I do a cut or dotted quarter roll. They're still too rushed, they don't provide lift or interest, I don't know what the term is, they're just not effortless and fun for me. Yet. I hope "yet". I'll keep at it.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Whoosis,
Until you mentioned that, I didn't really see the connection with roll on the fiddle compared to the whistle, but it's much the same, isn't it? I didn't think of it as a cut and a tap like I've learned on the whistle, but it makes more sense to me now. On the fiddle, I was thinking more of 5 notes instead of the same note interrupted twice.
Maybe my mind thinks in weird ways, but this has helped. Thanks!
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by nofrets
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Thanks for this Will; I have taken up the fiddle 6 months ago from guitar via mandolin. I am at that point where this is now becoming relevant to me.
Cheers
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Donough
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Some fiddlers do their rolls more "notey," where you can actually hear the pitch of the cuts. Brian Conway and Seamus Connolly spring to mind as examples of that approach. It's worth learning both types of rolls--percussive and notey--and then exploring the spectrum in between. But in the early stages, it may help to concentrate on one way or the other, rather than trying to learn both.
A key to the percussive cuts and rolls is to keep your left-hand fingers as relaxed and loose as possible. The percussive effect comes from the quickness of the strike, not so much the power behind it. It's amazing how percussive, "popping" a sound you can get with very light touches. The notey rolls are more bubbly sounding to my ear, and they require actually planting the finger above and coming completely off the "home" note to hear the note below, so they don't feel quite as loose and breezy as the percussive rolls.
"Short rolls"--in the space of a quarter note--can be a beast to do cleanly and consistently, especially at speed. It may help to think of starting the cut right on the beat that the quarter note fills, rather than lingering at all on the first note. (In contrast to a long roll, where you usually hold the first note a bit and then flutter through the cuts after the initial beat.) I don't use them as often as long rolls, and when I do, I have two approaches.
The first is to evenly space all five pulses of the roll, starting and ending on the "home" note: B{d}B{A}B.
To me, this feels like a slurred triplet ( B{d}B ) followed by a hammer-on ( {A}B ), but played so you hear three even pulses in the roll: DAH-BLAH-BAH.
The second approach is to start with the cut: {d}B{A}B. This feels more like a pull-off ( {d}B ) followed by a hammer-on ( {A}B ) and it sounds a little less cluttered. Also, in this type of short roll, I sometimes use the middle finger for the cut, for example: {g}f{e}f. This sort of roll sounds clipped to me: DLAH-AH-BAH. With the weight on the first and third syllables.
Hope this helps. There are many other ways to think about this stuff, and even other ways to physically do the rolls. This is just what I picked up from my primary influences on fiddle. Lots of good long and short rolls on recordings by Brian Conway, James Kelly, Seamus Connolly, Frankie Gavin, Gerry O'Connor, Brendan Mulivihill, etc. For the percussive approach, it's hard to do better than Kevin Burke.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Will, thanks for elaborating! That's the clearest description I've ever read.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by fidkid
Devils advocate - on the other hand
many people do riffs, rolls and ornamentations and if you actually listen you quickly realise they often cant actually play, but depend on the odd right note and flashiness to get them through. IMO if you dont know how to play, bow, change volume etc. Learn those first.
Coming from the lady who plays mostly chords at sessions but learns more tunes every hour.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Joze
Devils advocate - on the other hand pt2
as a personal defense, I can actually play, I just havent had much exposure to ITM.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Joze
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Good job, whoosis. That thing you said about treating those intervening notes as more interruptions of sound than as real notes is an important key to rolling on the whistle (or cutting for that matter). Understanding that was what helped me start bringing ornaments into my whistle playing (something I am still weak on). I am in awe of people like Mr. Connelly, who can also get those pulses to sound as notes in the short space available. In fact, one of the most awesome performances I ever saw was him playing with Joe Derrane (the box player ) a couple of years ago (another master of ornamentation)--and now that I think about it, I would recommend their "The Boston Edge" CD, which came out about a year ago, to anyone who wants to hear some fine and precise tune playing.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Try Hovis wholemeal, Perfect everytime
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
I've found it's the ratio of sweetner to salt that makes or breaks how the dough rises, and later tastes, in a good batch of rolls....
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Mail me the recipe, whoosy. Can't beat a good roll !!
To attain a perfect slur, drink 15 pints of old peculiar and try to speak
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
I think I'll get a yes in saying you can't beat maple pecan...mmmm, mmmm. What better notivation to practice for, eh? A roll for a roll... Of course, that could be taken in several ways...being also fond of meadows despite my grass allergies...
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Grass allergy !!! heaven forbid, now, wheres the rizlas
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by strayaway
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Don't stress rolls; they will come to you.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by BE
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Funny that, I've always had to make them myself, mix, knead, leave it to rise, put it in the oven, let it rest ~ you know ~ give it time and patience and take things as they come. With thought and consideration it always comes out better in the end. If I rush it the damned things come out like rocks, lifeless, no spring to them. Sometimes I'll go out to appreciate someone else's roll, but I definitely prefer making them myself... But I've never had them just come to me, I always had to put some work into it, but the results were well worth the effort and patience.... Hot, yeah, hotfiddler, they are nice with some of that warmth still in them, so the butter melts as you tear into them...
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
hmmm.... well I've certaintly worked for my bread and butter(and my rolls) but at the end of the day, they just have to come out....... If that makes any sense whatsoever!!!!!!
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by BE
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
My advice the note itself the note below the note the note again
B C B A B
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by oh
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
OK..so I pulled out the fiddle and tried re-thinking my approach. I noticed instant improvement!!
Ach, tá obair morán fós!
Thanks for the superb feedback!
Oh...and I'll get back to you on the baking instructions!
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolgaelach
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Yes, lots of work--as Seamus Ennis said, "first of all you have to learn it, and first you must learn the talk, and then you must learn the grip, and after that you must learn the Truckly-How, and then you have the whole lot only just to keep on practicing it."
Ta failte romhat.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Make sure your bow all your notes in one bow to make it sound chrisp
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by oh
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
someone mentioned rolls?
http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/recs/528/Ann_Sathers_Cinnamon_Rolls42534.shtml
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Joze
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
I've had some excellent rolls at local coffee shops.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
And some good cold cuts at the local deli. It's all much better than cheap trills.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
It sounds like you are (by your own analysis) lacking articulation (perhaps in general, rather than just on rolls). Articulation comes with practice, of course, but it's often just a matter of how fast/cleanly your fingers are hitting the string & fingerboard. You can improve this conveniently by just practicing stuff like "ABcdedcBABcdedcBA..." all in one long bow, all the while trying to make it as crisp as possible. Do this for ten minutes every day, and you'll see improvement quickly.
But in my experience, there are two ways that people often do rolls INCORRECTLY (on the fiddle). Avoid them both, and you're likely in good shape. They are:
1) Starting the roll too soon. (incorrect: "da-dik-a-da-daaaaaa", correct: "daaaaaa-dik-a-da-da" )
2) Leaving out the middle note
Both of these should probably stick out like a sore thumb to just about any reasonably practiced Irish trad musician.
Ceolgaelach, please feel free to email me a sound-clip of these rolls you are fighting with. I might be able to help.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Georgi
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Careful George, or we'll all send you soundclips for diagnosis.
Seriously, Ceolgaelach, take him up on that offer--George knows what he's doing. I've learned a lot (particularly about getting that beautiful lope on jigs, no matter what the pace) just from listening to George's playing.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Will CPT
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
I am enjoying this thread, but you left me in a daze with cups and spoons ~ really important measure to making rolls has to be 'weight'...
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Let me figure out how to send sound files and I'll do exactly that. Really hectic for me over the next several days...work, out of town etc. I'll work on this next week and see if I can get you a reasonable sound file.
Go raibh mile maith agat (agaibh)!!
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by ceolgaelach
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Al Brown - You've raised another important point. The principles of fiddle ornamentation are basically similar to those of ornamentation on the wind instruments. I came to the fiddle after playing mandolin for 10 years, with the whistle as a longstanding concurrent pursuit. I found that, with a combination of mandolin fingering and whistle ornamentation, the basic fiddle ornaments came quite naturally to me.
BTW, I can't actually play the fiddle, I can just do cuts and rolls - and they're as sloppy as school dinners.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by ragaman
Re: Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
Ten years on putting rolls in all over the shop, and loving 'em maybe a tad too much, since I've only recently gone back to recording myself, I think that that rollaholicing over the years has paid off and they are now coming out sounding pretty sweet and curley ended. Definitely melodic rather than percussive, adding an interesting weaving quality to the tunes (hard to explain). But I think the trick is to hang onto the note you are weaving around the end of, and keep on doing them till they are just a part of your renditions of the tunes. Then they just find a comfortable place in your playing and you put them in naturally as they fit into the tune.
# Posted on July 27th 2006 by Clear Drops