Can anyone here help a new orger? Amilia is wondering if there is a book, or any kind of literature out there, on Fiddle cranning? Links to websites which deal with Fiddle ornamentation would also be very helpful.
To explain, as a classical player, this is a new concept for her........
She has already had a 'few tips' on an earlier thread, but could use a few more.
Oh ...
P. S. Please keep your comments on topic - thank you!
Fiddle tutors ~ I've just had a quick look over four specifically Irish ~ Peter Cooper's, Matt Cranitch's, Kathleen Nesbitt's & Paul McNevin's ~ all leave it at the roll, the long and short of it... I did check half a dozen others of other traditions for anything similar ~ but alas, nothing... So no help there...
Amilia, why not go out and find yourself an Irish fiddle teacher of the living breathing talking variety. There are lots of other things you will want to learn about the music too. It isn't simply a matter of puttin' in a cran or two, I hope you realise.
If you do, and you're game, what notes do you like to cran and what's your take on them? Did you learn it from someone or is it something you just took up on your own accord?
The thing is I do not want a teacher... I want to learn from listening, trying, playing, no more teacher!! I am listeming to every cd I can put my hands on and try crazy stuff on my fiddle (not violin) and it works for me.
Amilia, just a small point, but I think you'll find that what you play your music on is in fact a Violin, isn't it?
That's what I play my music on.
However, I also have a repro 'Memling Fiddle', one of the 'real' Fiddles, & I for one am very, very glad we can play all our music on Violins nowadays, rather than those old Fiddles!
Course, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we call them, it's the music we produce with them that is the important thing, so just ignore me if you like!
But I still think poor old Antonio Stradivari & his like would be spinning in their graves if they could hear us confuse their life's work with such a lowly instrument as the Fiddle!
I confess I am as guilty as the next man, or woman, of being lazy & calling them Fiddles, but I always try to encourage my students to recognize their real name.
I have come across snobbery, & even inverted snobbery in some quarters, when it comes to what we actually call these 'treasured' possessions, & no doubt I'm being pedantic here (understatement!)
I suppose, were it set up correctly, you could Cran on an old gut strung Memling Fiddle, but I don't think it would be easy!
Yep ceolochan, love a good cran now and then - not too many now, and not in every tune - only where it fits in with what I think will improve the playing of a lovely tune. Its the tune that is important. But Amilia, I wouldn't call a cran 'crazy stuff', and there is a lot more subtelry to the music than putting in crazy stuff, anyho. I still say, find someone who will talk to you and listen to you.
That's a start, go have your tea now and think on the rest of my query and see if you can come back with something more, as you haven't yet satisfied my insatiable curiosity with regards to you and cranning...
Alas, poor Amilia seems to be teacher phobic, maybe had too much of it, maybe even that not uncommon, unfortunately, bad teacher...? But I still agree with your scraper ~ the social interaction of sharing tradition and technique person to person can't be beat, not by any number of CD's or books... This music is more than technique and acrobatics...though some do lose their way...
Some people might not like to get drawn into a wind up ceolachan ... and meybe I was a tad slow ta recognise this one. The pot-o-tae is lovely though, so 'll probably wait till the finish of the next one.
Wind up, no way. I was honouring Ptarm's request and was dead serious. I REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU USUALLY CRAN AND HOW ~ HONEST!!! Oops, sorry, the scream key got stuck... No wind up, but yes, he tae is lovely, and mine is spiked ever so sweetly... So, when you've settled and played a few tunes, really, I would love to know what and how you cran on the fiddle...no wind-up, cross my heat and hope to ~ nah, that's going too far...
I'll hear ya first, ceolachan, so rosin up the bow and give us an auld toon, and tell us where you're not puttin in crans and rolls and things, there's a good lad.
Open stings, hmmm, are you using harmonics, a la Lyritsa? What are your accidentals? I like the sound of it, on the open D and A, you might convert me...
Besides crans on A and D, I sometimes cran on an open E. A good example of this can be heard on Kevin Burke's setting of Cliffs of Moher (on If The Cap Fits, I think), where he does what he calls an open string roll on the long e's in the B part of the tune.
Maybe that would help Amilia--if we can steer her toward specific examples of fiddle crans and their kin on readily available recordings.
I like the way Burke takes that tune, hadn't considered the specifics. How do you do your crans? Where did you pick up the technique? ~ or was it something you worked up yourself?
I do different sorts of things I would call crans--for lack of a better term, and because I tend to use them where I hear pipers and fluters doing crans. Open strings are the main place, and I tend to favor the same sort of "open string roll" approach that Burke uses. Most often, that takes the form of a single bow stroke on the open string, and then cutting the string with the index, ring, and index finger again. The sound is very much like your standard long roll on any note held by a finger (say, a long roll on the second string B). I learned that particular approach from Mr. Burke himself, first from listening, and then from watching him do it up close.
The other way I cran an open string is to do a bowed triplet with the middle note held by a quick index finger. A simple change of bow direction leading into the triplet or coming out of it creates a sense of timing akin to a cran. It might look like: DD D/E/D (where each note is bowed separately).
For crans on a fingered note, I sometimes do a double hammer-on thingie that Sean Smyth taught us in Butte, Montana, a few years ago, where you start by sounding the note below the one you want to end on, and then come down twice in rapid succession on the end note. A classical player might think of it as a micro-trill. It can fill the space of either a quarter or dotted quarter note, and the "flutter" part lands early on the beat, with the note held afterward, as opposed to most rolls, where you hold the main note and then the flutter of cuts follows.
I've fooled around with more notey, cut-filled variations of these, but at typical session tempos they just get too busy sounding. The three above techniques let me mimic the timing and pulse of a good cran without cluttering up the tune. And I use them all fairly sparingly, often preferring either just a strong tone on the open string, gentle doublestop, or a simple melodic variation.
I think whatever sequence works for you is fine. It's the timing and cleanness of the cuts that matters, not the actual pitches or order of "notes." Fluters use different sequences of fingers for crans, and I'm assuming there's some variation amongst pipers, too.
A good listen can be had with Michelle O'Brien's fiddling on her recording with Aogan Lynch and Gavin Ralston: http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/715. Michelle does some interesting smears and fingerings with Tommy-Peoples-like scratch triplets that strike my ear as very pipe influenced. You can hear some of this on the first tune of the first track, Gladstone's, where she grabs the open A string and then mirrors the same sound on the low E, much as a fluter might crann the E instead of rolling it.
Also, on the Boston College Irish Fiddle Festival recording, Dale Russ does a bang up job on Humours of Ballyloughlin, including some nice ED D/E/D triplet style crans on the low Ds. It's an unaccompanied track, and Dale's playing is super clean, so it's easy to hear the distinct bow changes and fingerings.
Love that Dale Russ rendition of Humours of Ballyloughlin. Had it and didn't know who was playing it, so now do thanks Will. Also Sean Smith and Kevin Burke. I am soooo pleased that at last Amilia is getting the stuff she was asking for. I am sorry ceolachan but I am just an Aussie culchie who's trying to keep things together in difficult circumstances. Play crans and stuff, but am no kind of expert, and love to hear the advice that comes from the yellaboard. This is more like it! Wow. Keep it up. And yep I cran the E in Cliffs of Moher, put some crans in Humours of Ballyloughlin, and in some of the stuff from the playing of Sean Smith, so, it transpires that I might be kindda keeping on the right track despite the lack of session here. I also do crans sometimes on my first finger cutting with the third and rarely on the second and third when I want to do something different from a roll, like maybe the third time through, then maybe not, as the mood takes.
Dale Russ, right you are, and he definitely heats up a dance floor too...great inspiration...and a damned fine teacher... Have you ever seen that video he did? I wonder if he deals with that sort of embellishment in that? Amelia was asking about books, and expressed a strong disinterest in Scrap and my suggestion to chase up a teacher, but if there was a video ~ hell, she'd be in control and could turn it on and off at Will (no pun intended)...
Is anyone familiar with Dale's video fiddle lessons?
Don't know about a teaching video, but there are MP3's of Dale Russ's playing on the internet. I downloaded his 'American polkas' that I love to play along with - very feet tappin'. No crans in those as far as I can hear, but there were also some reels available. Unsure how you get them or from where, but they are available free 'cause I got some.
~ where folks will find the information for the CD "North Amerikay" ~ Dale Russ and Finn MacGinty, and the polka MP3... Yeah, Dale has dabbled in old time too...
" ~ a lovely album of Irish fiddle tunes and songs. The album features Dale's powerful and expressive fiddle playing on old chestnuts and unusual tunes alike, backed by Finn on guitar, and a variety of songs, some humorous and others heart-rending and classic, including the title song, "North Amerikay."
Just to note, those polkas are and were played by Irish in Amerikay and in Eire... It would be a stretch but I guess you could call all Irish music played in North Amerikay American, but I wouldn't make that stretch. Come one Scrapper, get the bow out again, this time I'm not risking the bow, I've got an American Slammer ( an aluminium baseball bat on the heavy side )...
Blow the bow, I'll hav'ta get out me didge or me waddi waddi, or meybe I'll jist point the bone at ya. So watch out. But isn't that great stuff, hey, ceolachan, and I had thought the thread was dead. It's whoosis you should be stoking for the good stuff.
No, you both deserve credit, and I love it, am eating it up, but I'm biased. I've always enjoyed 'whoosis', even when he has a hair up his ~ will that show on site here or does it come out something silly like 'asp'? Sorry 'whoosis', you know I love and respect yuh ~ even if there may be clauses to that and sometimes you scare me...
On that thread Mad Baloney wrote: "Crans are not often used by fiddles in the first place, it's a pipe ornament.
The original question was what do fiddles do when they see a roll on an open string note in sheet music and the answer is at least 99.9% of the time, a treble bow.
A cran on a fiddle is so rare that I've only heard it on one recording."
But that thread was actually written back in 2001 so I just wonder how many Fiddle Crans have been recorded since then?
I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned Brendan Mulvihill (or did I just miss it?) and his innovative ornamentation. Any o’ y’uns tried to do his crannish ornaments?
[Warning: taking this to a whole 'nuther level of nitpicking]
That excerpt from that old thread was just one person's opinion based on his own listening experience. Other posts on that thread (my own in particular) offered many examples of recorded crans or open string rolls or cream cheese danishes that predated 2001.
As I understand it, in uilleann piping and Irish fluting, a cran is a series of cuts, all above (in pitch) the note being cranned. Obviously, on these instruments you can't tap a note below low D, so a true roll isn't possible on D, hence the cran. Many players also use crans on E as a variation to the roll.
But in listening and talking to pipers and fluters, I've found a range of appraoches to doing crans, mirrored on this board when people discuss crans on flute, whistle, or pipes. People use different sequences of cuts to get the cran sound. So it seems accepted in the trad world that a cran is a series of cuts of any of a number of finger sequences, with no ptiches articulated below the note being cranned. If that's a reasonable definition, then crans on fiddle are certainly do-able and are actually common enough, especially on open strings.
FIntan Vallely's "Companion to Irish Traditional Music" says this about crans:
"Decoration used in uilleann piping. A defining ornament, it is characteristically used to achieve a staccato low D of the chanter. It may also be used on low E. The effect is mimicked too on flute and fiddle, and is used also by some concertina and accordion players."
A sheet music example of crans as played on pipes follows, showing cut notes scattered above a low D, and indeed showing different sequences of cuts:
{G}D{F}D
and
{A}D{G}D{F}D
In the end, I think there's a more useful answer to the old thread's question about what fiddlers do when they see the roll symbol on an open string, and it's relevant here. The answer is, "mix it up." There are lots of choices, in no particular order:
Play the open note with no special articulation A3
Smear up to the note on the string below and play both strings together [AA]
Hold some harmonic doublestop [DA] or [EA] or [FA] or [Ac]
Drone the open string against the octave above [Aa]
Do a bowed triplet A A/A/A
Do a chromatic bowed triplet AA/B/A or Ac/B/A or AA/F/A
Slur the same triplets on a single bow stroke
Do some form of double triplet cran A/B/A A/B/A
Do a roll/cran A{B}A{d}A{B}A (or other sequence of cuts)
Play a melodic phrase AFAB
and so on.
Are you familiar with Brendan Mulvihill's bowed crans, or whatever they are? The Flax in Bloom CD has some notes on his peculiar ornamentation, but didn't really clarify it for my thick skull.
Sorry Bob, I haven't listened that closely to Brendan's playing. Though in live performance (at the 1999 Wahsington DC Irish Festival) I certainly noticed that he does some interesting and unusual articulations. He was always playing with Billy McComiskey, so it was hard to pick out specifics, given the blend with box. And unfortunately I don't own any of his recordings.
Bob,
Crikey, if crans make it into my ornamentation repetoire out here in Central Oz, they have to be pretty common. Much easier than some of the other options Will has given above. Not rocket science. What's the prob. I've admitted to using them when I feel like it and it fits (been doing them for nigh on 10 years), and Will has also given some fiddleplayers and specific tunes to listen to: Kevin Burke - Cliffs of Moher, Sean Smith in general, Dale Russ - Humours of Ballyloughlin, and there are heaps and heaps of others. Can be a nice percussive option to rolls. I am prone to use a cran on some of the B's in the Banks of Lough Gowna, for instance, or the F# sometimes at the start of the first part of The Wise Maid. Sound nice occasionally in various spots in Toss the Feathers, on the e in part B of Poor but Happy - the list goes on and on. I have just taken a memory test and I didn't do so well at it. But why not use it? Its a lovely ornamentation as Will says, mixed up amongst the options.
Just listened to the clip of Mulvihill's Flax in Bloom (1st track) and he uses a chromatic bowed triplet (D2 D/E/D) to start the first half on that long open D. Then in the B part of the tune he kicks things off with a cut into a slurred triplet, repeated: {g}f/e/f {g}f/e/f {a}g/f/g {a}g/f/g
Also on that track, he does a masterful job of mixing rolls that come after the beat with on-the-beat rolls. One example goes: DEFA d~f3|~g3f {d}fedB|, where the f is held before starting the roll, but for the following ~g3 roll the cuts start much sooner, on the beat. (Also note that the DEFA phrase is a melodic variation that takes the place of the D2 D/E/D earlier.)
Interesting stuff. I'll listen some more and see what he's got going on long open string notes....
? I do use crans (actually, one simple cran). I'm just curious to see what folks around here think about Brendan M's idiosyncratic approach to fiddle ornaments.
Yowser...I just listened to Mulvihill's setting of Mullingar Races. So in the B part he does a chromatic bowed triplet followed by a slurred triplet B/c/B (3BcB several times in a row. That's over the top, for my tastes.
Gotta appreciate his inventiveness though, and I really like how he tweaks a note or phrase every time through, so it's constantly changing, always interesting.
Damn, that brings back memories. I'd forgotten all about that recording. Wasn't that his first ever? What a head of hair, what a kick... I think he was in the mood to 'prove something' at the time...make a statement...
So Bob, why come across as though you haven't even read the thread? Come kleen and tell us exactly where you use them yer good self. And don't be meaning something you were not asking. Cross posting going on like you wouldn't believe. Even the internet must be slow out here in the back of beyond. My computer won't let me listen to those clips unfortunately.
So now I'm scrappin' with Bob himself as well as ceolachan. Someone please send me a MP3 of what the hell you are talking about (Flax in Bloom - Brendan Mulvihill, otherwise it is "shame job" fer me and I'll have to go back into lurkdom, wounded and trampled. old_scraper@yahoo.com.au Good on ya guys.
Are we having an argument, Scraper? I can't always tell.
I use a cran (multiple cuts, no bowing) in Tom Billy's Jig on the A notes at the end of the B and C parts, occasionally on the D in the first full measure of Out on the Ocean, on the A in Christmas Day Ida Moarnin' near the end of the A part, and on other tunes that aren't even Irish or even Celtic when I think I can get away with it.
"can't always tell"?? Of course not. I was just kidding - does everyone have to wear a poka face on the yellaboard? Some good stuff can come out of a bit of humour and happy people take things in better than those who are dead serious, I believe.
Yep, startin to understand, Bob, which means I'm up to two kinds, the multiple cuts on one bow and the cut percussive triplets thingy. Tend to use the first type going up and the second one coming down. Startin to come back: yep, Tom Billy's, Out on the Ocean, Coleman's Cross, Rights of Man on the last note sometimes, Lord Mayo, occasionally in The Congress, a lot in Fraher's, etc etc - the list goes on. Actually all over the place as an alternative to rolls or what have you whenever etc etc. Can make a very dramatic start to a tune, cran off and into it, whooppy.
I for one do not see this as necessarily show-offy stuff - but then some of us are free to play The Music any old way we want to without anyone telling us what to do or think. Would like to hear what Brendan Mulvihill does in the Flax in Bloom, there's a 'Mulvihill' name appears in the family tree.
Thank you Will and Bob for the clips. I get what you are talking about now. That playing is over the top, acrobatics that don't come off and don't add to the tune, in fact they don't fit with the rest of what are lovely tunes, and mushy and unclean when slowed down, in MHO. I disclaim any family tie, and the ornamentations, whatever they were supposed to be. Very very clever, but it made me laugh to listen to the clips. Thank you for taking the trouble to include an ignorant old culchie scraper from Oz in the discussion. I really appreciate it.
Cranning - a new start!
Cranning - a new start!
Can anyone here help a new orger? Amilia is wondering if there is a book, or any kind of literature out there, on Fiddle cranning? Links to websites which deal with Fiddle ornamentation would also be very helpful.
To explain, as a classical player, this is a new concept for her........
She has already had a 'few tips' on an earlier thread, but could use a few more.
Oh ...
P. S. Please keep your comments on topic - thank you!
{ My penance! }
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Cranning - a new start! ~
For any with an interest in history and why Ptarmigan has made pennance ~ understanding he hopes history will not repeat itself ~
Cranning
# Posted on July 18th 2006 by amilia
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10688
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Fiddle tutors ~ I've just had a quick look over four specifically Irish ~ Peter Cooper's, Matt Cranitch's, Kathleen Nesbitt's & Paul McNevin's ~ all leave it at the roll, the long and short of it... I did check half a dozen others of other traditions for anything similar ~ but alas, nothing... So no help there...
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
A close second? ~ the Scottish take on things similar:
"Traditional Scottish Fiddling" ~ compiled by Christine Martin
ISBN: 1-871931-38X ~ with recording
'Fiddle Pibrochs' ~ pages 30 & 31
# Posted on July 23rd 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Amilia, why not go out and find yourself an Irish fiddle teacher of the living breathing talking variety. There are lots of other things you will want to learn about the music too. It isn't simply a matter of puttin' in a cran or two, I hope you realise.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Sorry, I forgot about the listening. A fiddle teacher could listen to you and sort out how you could go about getting it sounding right.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
You beat me to it ~ always the best first choice... But as to cranning, not a lot of fiddlers choose to do it, in my experience...
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Some of my favourite musicians also don't bother with rolls...
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Yeah, but some others of them love a good cran or roll. Tasty ornamentations. Yum.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Do you cran Scrapper?
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
If you do, and you're game, what notes do you like to cran and what's your take on them? Did you learn it from someone or is it something you just took up on your own accord?
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
The thing is I do not want a teacher... I want to learn from listening, trying, playing, no more teacher!! I am listeming to every cd I can put my hands on and try crazy stuff on my fiddle (not violin) and it works for me.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by amilia
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Amilia, just a small point, but I think you'll find that what you play your music on is in fact a Violin, isn't it?
That's what I play my music on.
However, I also have a repro 'Memling Fiddle', one of the 'real' Fiddles, & I for one am very, very glad we can play all our music on Violins nowadays, rather than those old Fiddles!
Course, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we call them, it's the music we produce with them that is the important thing, so just ignore me if you like!
But I still think poor old Antonio Stradivari & his like would be spinning in their graves if they could hear us confuse their life's work with such a lowly instrument as the Fiddle!
I confess I am as guilty as the next man, or woman, of being lazy & calling them Fiddles, but I always try to encourage my students to recognize their real name.
I have come across snobbery, & even inverted snobbery in some quarters, when it comes to what we actually call these 'treasured' possessions, & no doubt I'm being pedantic here (understatement!)
I suppose, were it set up correctly, you could Cran on an old gut strung Memling Fiddle, but I don't think it would be easy!
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Yep ceolochan, love a good cran now and then - not too many now, and not in every tune - only where it fits in with what I think will improve the playing of a lovely tune. Its the tune that is important. But Amilia, I wouldn't call a cran 'crazy stuff', and there is a lot more subtelry to the music than putting in crazy stuff, anyho. I still say, find someone who will talk to you and listen to you.
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
That's a start, go have your tea now and think on the rest of my query and see if you can come back with something more, as you haven't yet satisfied my insatiable curiosity with regards to you and cranning...
Alas, poor Amilia seems to be teacher phobic, maybe had too much of it, maybe even that not uncommon, unfortunately, bad teacher...? But I still agree with your scraper ~ the social interaction of sharing tradition and technique person to person can't be beat, not by any number of CD's or books... This music is more than technique and acrobatics...though some do lose their way...
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Some people might not like to get drawn into a wind up ceolachan ... and meybe I was a tad slow ta recognise this one. The pot-o-tae is lovely though, so 'll probably wait till the finish of the next one.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start! ~
Wind up, no way. I was honouring Ptarm's request and was dead serious. I REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU USUALLY CRAN AND HOW ~ HONEST!!! Oops, sorry, the scream key got stuck... No wind up, but yes, he tae is lovely, and mine is spiked ever so sweetly... So, when you've settled and played a few tunes, really, I would love to know what and how you cran on the fiddle...no wind-up, cross my heat and hope to ~ nah, that's going too far...
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I'll hear ya first, ceolachan, so rosin up the bow and give us an auld toon, and tell us where you're not puttin in crans and rolls and things, there's a good lad.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I asked first... (Is this going to end up being bows at fifty paces? If so, I'm using my carbon fibre one...)
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Too-shay.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Open stings, hmmm, are you using harmonics, a la Lyritsa? What are your accidentals? I like the sound of it, on the open D and A, you might convert me...
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Besides crans on A and D, I sometimes cran on an open E. A good example of this can be heard on Kevin Burke's setting of Cliffs of Moher (on If The Cap Fits, I think), where he does what he calls an open string roll on the long e's in the B part of the tune.
Maybe that would help Amilia--if we can steer her toward specific examples of fiddle crans and their kin on readily available recordings.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Good one!
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I like the way Burke takes that tune, hadn't considered the specifics. How do you do your crans? Where did you pick up the technique? ~ or was it something you worked up yourself?
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I do different sorts of things I would call crans--for lack of a better term, and because I tend to use them where I hear pipers and fluters doing crans. Open strings are the main place, and I tend to favor the same sort of "open string roll" approach that Burke uses. Most often, that takes the form of a single bow stroke on the open string, and then cutting the string with the index, ring, and index finger again. The sound is very much like your standard long roll on any note held by a finger (say, a long roll on the second string B). I learned that particular approach from Mr. Burke himself, first from listening, and then from watching him do it up close.
The other way I cran an open string is to do a bowed triplet with the middle note held by a quick index finger. A simple change of bow direction leading into the triplet or coming out of it creates a sense of timing akin to a cran. It might look like: DD D/E/D (where each note is bowed separately).
For crans on a fingered note, I sometimes do a double hammer-on thingie that Sean Smyth taught us in Butte, Montana, a few years ago, where you start by sounding the note below the one you want to end on, and then come down twice in rapid succession on the end note. A classical player might think of it as a micro-trill. It can fill the space of either a quarter or dotted quarter note, and the "flutter" part lands early on the beat, with the note held afterward, as opposed to most rolls, where you hold the main note and then the flutter of cuts follows.
I've fooled around with more notey, cut-filled variations of these, but at typical session tempos they just get too busy sounding. The three above techniques let me mimic the timing and pulse of a good cran without cluttering up the tune. And I use them all fairly sparingly, often preferring either just a strong tone on the open string, gentle doublestop, or a simple melodic variation.
My 0.02 cents, fwiw.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
A bargain at two bucks, even, Will. I’m gonna collect all your tidbits and write that book you never get around to.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I think whatever sequence works for you is fine. It's the timing and cleanness of the cuts that matters, not the actual pitches or order of "notes." Fluters use different sequences of fingers for crans, and I'm assuming there's some variation amongst pipers, too.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
You've got my interest... Any other recorded examples anyone would recommend?
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
A good listen can be had with Michelle O'Brien's fiddling on her recording with Aogan Lynch and Gavin Ralston: http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/715. Michelle does some interesting smears and fingerings with Tommy-Peoples-like scratch triplets that strike my ear as very pipe influenced. You can hear some of this on the first tune of the first track, Gladstone's, where she grabs the open A string and then mirrors the same sound on the low E, much as a fluter might crann the E instead of rolling it.
Also, on the Boston College Irish Fiddle Festival recording, Dale Russ does a bang up job on Humours of Ballyloughlin, including some nice ED D/E/D triplet style crans on the low Ds. It's an unaccompanied track, and Dale's playing is super clean, so it's easy to hear the distinct bow changes and fingerings.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Love that Dale Russ rendition of Humours of Ballyloughlin. Had it and didn't know who was playing it, so now do thanks Will. Also Sean Smith and Kevin Burke. I am soooo pleased that at last Amilia is getting the stuff she was asking for. I am sorry ceolachan but I am just an Aussie culchie who's trying to keep things together in difficult circumstances. Play crans and stuff, but am no kind of expert, and love to hear the advice that comes from the yellaboard. This is more like it! Wow. Keep it up. And yep I cran the E in Cliffs of Moher, put some crans in Humours of Ballyloughlin, and in some of the stuff from the playing of Sean Smith, so, it transpires that I might be kindda keeping on the right track despite the lack of session here. I also do crans sometimes on my first finger cutting with the third and rarely on the second and third when I want to do something different from a roll, like maybe the third time through, then maybe not, as the mood takes.
# Posted on July 25th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Dale Russ, right you are, and he definitely heats up a dance floor too...great inspiration...and a damned fine teacher... Have you ever seen that video he did? I wonder if he deals with that sort of embellishment in that? Amelia was asking about books, and expressed a strong disinterest in Scrap and my suggestion to chase up a teacher, but if there was a video ~ hell, she'd be in control and could turn it on and off at Will (no pun intended)...
Is anyone familiar with Dale's video fiddle lessons?
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Here's a related thread ~
Rolls...Can't Seem To Get It Right!!!
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolgaelach
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/10757
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Don't know about a teaching video, but there are MP3's of Dale Russ's playing on the internet. I downloaded his 'American polkas' that I love to play along with - very feet tappin'. No crans in those as far as I can hear, but there were also some reels available. Unsure how you get them or from where, but they are available free 'cause I got some.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Aniar Records has some free MP3 downloads http://www.aniar.net/mp3.html
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
http://www.aniar.net/amerikay.html
~ where folks will find the information for the CD "North Amerikay" ~ Dale Russ and Finn MacGinty, and the polka MP3... Yeah, Dale has dabbled in old time too...
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
" ~ a lovely album of Irish fiddle tunes and songs. The album features Dale's powerful and expressive fiddle playing on old chestnuts and unusual tunes alike, backed by Finn on guitar, and a variety of songs, some humorous and others heart-rending and classic, including the title song, "North Amerikay."
Just to note, those polkas are and were played by Irish in Amerikay and in Eire... It would be a stretch but I guess you could call all Irish music played in North Amerikay American, but I wouldn't make that stretch. Come one Scrapper, get the bow out again, this time I'm not risking the bow, I've got an American Slammer ( an aluminium baseball bat on the heavy side )...
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Blow the bow, I'll hav'ta get out me didge or me waddi waddi, or meybe I'll jist point the bone at ya. So watch out. But isn't that great stuff, hey, ceolachan, and I had thought the thread was dead. It's whoosis you should be stoking for the good stuff.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I meant MORE of the good stuff.
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
No, you both deserve credit, and I love it, am eating it up, but I'm biased. I've always enjoyed 'whoosis', even when he has a hair up his ~ will that show on site here or does it come out something silly like 'asp'? Sorry 'whoosis', you know I love and respect yuh ~ even if there may be clauses to that and sometimes you scare me...
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Heh, sometimes I scare myself....
# Posted on July 26th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Now before you guys drift off topic altogether! {
} I just stumbled on this old thread, which Amilia & others might find useful:
"Open-string rolls on the fiddle"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/226
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
On that thread Mad Baloney wrote: "Crans are not often used by fiddles in the first place, it's a pipe ornament.
The original question was what do fiddles do when they see a roll on an open string note in sheet music and the answer is at least 99.9% of the time, a treble bow.
A cran on a fiddle is so rare that I've only heard it on one recording."
But that thread was actually written back in 2001 so I just wonder how many Fiddle Crans have been recorded since then?
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned Brendan Mulvihill (or did I just miss it?) and his innovative ornamentation. Any o’ y’uns tried to do his crannish ornaments?
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
[Warning: taking this to a whole 'nuther level of nitpicking]
that predated 2001.
That excerpt from that old thread was just one person's opinion based on his own listening experience. Other posts on that thread (my own in particular) offered many examples of recorded crans or open string rolls or cream cheese danishes
As I understand it, in uilleann piping and Irish fluting, a cran is a series of cuts, all above (in pitch) the note being cranned. Obviously, on these instruments you can't tap a note below low D, so a true roll isn't possible on D, hence the cran. Many players also use crans on E as a variation to the roll.
But in listening and talking to pipers and fluters, I've found a range of appraoches to doing crans, mirrored on this board when people discuss crans on flute, whistle, or pipes. People use different sequences of cuts to get the cran sound. So it seems accepted in the trad world that a cran is a series of cuts of any of a number of finger sequences, with no ptiches articulated below the note being cranned. If that's a reasonable definition, then crans on fiddle are certainly do-able and are actually common enough, especially on open strings.
FIntan Vallely's "Companion to Irish Traditional Music" says this about crans:
"Decoration used in uilleann piping. A defining ornament, it is characteristically used to achieve a staccato low D of the chanter. It may also be used on low E. The effect is mimicked too on flute and fiddle, and is used also by some concertina and accordion players."
A sheet music example of crans as played on pipes follows, showing cut notes scattered above a low D, and indeed showing different sequences of cuts:
{G}D{F}D
and
{A}D{G}D{F}D
In the end, I think there's a more useful answer to the old thread's question about what fiddlers do when they see the roll symbol on an open string, and it's relevant here. The answer is, "mix it up." There are lots of choices, in no particular order:
Play the open note with no special articulation A3
Smear up to the note on the string below and play both strings together [AA]
Hold some harmonic doublestop [DA] or [EA] or [FA] or [Ac]
Drone the open string against the octave above [Aa]
Do a bowed triplet A A/A/A
Do a chromatic bowed triplet AA/B/A or Ac/B/A or AA/F/A
Slur the same triplets on a single bow stroke
Do some form of double triplet cran A/B/A A/B/A
Do a roll/cran A{B}A{d}A{B}A (or other sequence of cuts)
Play a melodic phrase AFAB
and so on.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Not nitpicking, whooze. I appreciate the detail.
Are you familiar with Brendan Mulvihill's bowed crans, or whatever they are? The Flax in Bloom CD has some notes on his peculiar ornamentation, but didn't really clarify it for my thick skull.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Sorry Bob, I haven't listened that closely to Brendan's playing. Though in live performance (at the 1999 Wahsington DC Irish Festival) I certainly noticed that he does some interesting and unusual articulations. He was always playing with Billy McComiskey, so it was hard to pick out specifics, given the blend with box. And unfortunately I don't own any of his recordings.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Some samples of B. Mulvihill:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005CM8/103-4784180-8807050?v=glance&n=5174
One of the tunes - don't remember which and can't listen right now - is a showcase for his whatsit ornament.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Bob,
Crikey, if crans make it into my ornamentation repetoire out here in Central Oz, they have to be pretty common. Much easier than some of the other options Will has given above. Not rocket science. What's the prob. I've admitted to using them when I feel like it and it fits (been doing them for nigh on 10 years), and Will has also given some fiddleplayers and specific tunes to listen to: Kevin Burke - Cliffs of Moher, Sean Smith in general, Dale Russ - Humours of Ballyloughlin, and there are heaps and heaps of others. Can be a nice percussive option to rolls. I am prone to use a cran on some of the B's in the Banks of Lough Gowna, for instance, or the F# sometimes at the start of the first part of The Wise Maid. Sound nice occasionally in various spots in Toss the Feathers, on the e in part B of Poor but Happy - the list goes on and on. I have just taken a memory test and I didn't do so well at it. But why not use it? Its a lovely ornamentation as Will says, mixed up amongst the options.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Just listened to the clip of Mulvihill's Flax in Bloom (1st track) and he uses a chromatic bowed triplet (D2 D/E/D) to start the first half on that long open D. Then in the B part of the tune he kicks things off with a cut into a slurred triplet, repeated: {g}f/e/f {g}f/e/f {a}g/f/g {a}g/f/g
Also on that track, he does a masterful job of mixing rolls that come after the beat with on-the-beat rolls. One example goes: DEFA d~f3|~g3f {d}fedB|, where the f is held before starting the roll, but for the following ~g3 roll the cuts start much sooner, on the beat. (Also note that the DEFA phrase is a melodic variation that takes the place of the D2 D/E/D earlier.)
Interesting stuff. I'll listen some more and see what he's got going on long open string notes....
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
? I do use crans (actually, one simple cran). I'm just curious to see what folks around here think about Brendan M's idiosyncratic approach to fiddle ornaments.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Yowser...I just listened to Mulvihill's setting of Mullingar Races. So in the B part he does a chromatic bowed triplet followed by a slurred triplet B/c/B (3BcB several times in a row. That's over the top, for my tastes.
Gotta appreciate his inventiveness though, and I really like how he tweaks a note or phrase every time through, so it's constantly changing, always interesting.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Will Harmon
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Yeah, over the top for me too. The ornament becomes a word in the sentence instead of punctuation.
# Posted on July 28th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Damn, that brings back memories. I'd forgotten all about that recording. Wasn't that his first ever? What a head of hair, what a kick... I think he was in the mood to 'prove something' at the time...make a statement...
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Cranning - a new start!
So Bob, why come across as though you haven't even read the thread? Come kleen and tell us exactly where you use them yer good self. And don't be meaning something you were not asking. Cross posting going on like you wouldn't believe. Even the internet must be slow out here in the back of beyond. My computer won't let me listen to those clips unfortunately.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
So now I'm scrappin' with Bob himself as well as ceolachan. Someone please send me a MP3 of what the hell you are talking about (Flax in Bloom - Brendan Mulvihill, otherwise it is "shame job" fer me and I'll have to go back into lurkdom, wounded and trampled. old_scraper@yahoo.com.au Good on ya guys.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Are we having an argument, Scraper? I can't always tell.
I use a cran (multiple cuts, no bowing) in Tom Billy's Jig on the A notes at the end of the B and C parts, occasionally on the D in the first full measure of Out on the Ocean, on the A in Christmas Day Ida Moarnin' near the end of the A part, and on other tunes that aren't even Irish or even Celtic when I think I can get away with it.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
"no bowing" - that would be pretty impressive, but you know what I mean.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Cranning - a new start!
"can't always tell"?? Of course not. I was just kidding - does everyone have to wear a poka face on the yellaboard?
Some good stuff can come out of a bit of humour and happy people take things in better than those who are dead serious, I believe.
Yep, startin to understand, Bob, which means I'm up to two kinds, the multiple cuts on one bow and the cut percussive triplets thingy. Tend to use the first type going up and the second one coming down. Startin to come back: yep, Tom Billy's, Out on the Ocean, Coleman's Cross, Rights of Man on the last note sometimes, Lord Mayo, occasionally in The Congress, a lot in Fraher's, etc etc - the list goes on. Actually all over the place as an alternative to rolls or what have you whenever etc etc. Can make a very dramatic start to a tune, cran off and into it, whooppy.
I for one do not see this as necessarily show-offy stuff - but then some of us are free to play The Music any old way we want to without anyone telling us what to do or think. Would like to hear what Brendan Mulvihill does in the Flax in Bloom, there's a 'Mulvihill' name appears in the family tree.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Cranning - a new start!
Thank you Will and Bob for the clips. I get what you are talking about now. That playing is over the top, acrobatics that don't come off and don't add to the tune, in fact they don't fit with the rest of what are lovely tunes, and mushy and unclean when slowed down, in MHO. I disclaim any family tie, and the ornamentations, whatever they were supposed to be. Very very clever, but it made me laugh to listen to the clips. Thank you for taking the trouble to include an ignorant old culchie scraper from Oz in the discussion. I really appreciate it.
# Posted on July 29th 2006 by Clear Drops