Hi, does anybody have any idea where I can learn more about Gaelic harmonies. You know the stufft that is so often fused with popular music eg Clannad etc. I want to know the nature of the harmonies etc, availalbe scores to analyse that knida thing.
Peace
Idgie
Tough on this, as any purist will tell you that there is NO harmony in "real" gaelic music. All the harmonies you hear are modern concoctions using rules less sophisticated than Bach (with a little blues thrown in). Read the posting not so long ago about playing harmonies
True enough Michael, but it is those harmonies that make the music accessable to a wider audience and out of that wider audience we attract more players! Good thing, right?
Idgie, if you're determined to find out a bit more of what's going on in the background with the modern artists, I'd think that sitting down at a piano and just tapping away should do the trick. If you don't make any headway, almost any person with academic musical training could help you pull out the harmonies on the fly.
It's hard to think that the harp, as ancient an instrument as any, would have been used strictly for melody, since it's so perfectly suited for chordal considerations. Surely Carolan and people like him arose out of some kind of tradition other than just standard Euro-classical.
Yes harmony is a goog thing.
And yes, you would think that a harp player would have naturally used harmony. But there are those who argue that they didn't. (worth pointing out that the late great ding dong Derick Bell was not one of those)
I like those points cuchulain, but I wonder how 'irish' Carolan tunes really were. He wrote beautiful tunes (despite the likely botching of them by the musicologists of the time), but altogether, I believe his music was mostly influenced by what his audience wanted, and they wanted euro-classical chamber music. The rich and well-to-do (his patrons) wanted to hear more fashionable music.
(Oh, I wish I could find some sources on the web so I could back up what I remember reading. Perhaps someone will help.)
Yes, I think I knew Carolan was trying to write chamber music, but I was just making the point that I don't think he arrived at that point in a vacuum. Unaccompanied melody certainly has its precedent, but I've got to believe musicians were adding at least drones as harmony at a very early stage in musical history in Ireland as well as elsewhere. It sounds so organic and right in Irish music, and on instruments like harp, easily accomplished.
I know a lot of reels and jigs use repeated notes that form a drone-like harmony to the melody, and, especially on the harp, those repeated notes would ring on and on, forming an overall drone to the tune. What harper wouldn't have said, "Hey, cool! I think I'll bring that out a little more!"? And next thing you know, people are sticking drones on their reed instruments and simple harmony is born. I'm making it all up, you understand, but it just makes sense.
As a harper myself, what I understand to be keeping within the old tradition is definitely drones (harpers borrowed from bagpipes, although some harp entusiasts suggest it may even be the other way around!), and also you can always double the melody in the ocatave(s) below--although I gues that's not really melody per se.
The problem with Carolan was that he wanted to be Vivaldi, not some romantic west coast blind sage. Maybe he should have gone to Italy and have done with it. Or maybe he prefered to be the big fish in his little sea.
The conjecture regarding how harmony came about is interesting. I like the conundrum of whether the harp or the bagpipe drone came first. Either way, I'm glad it happened. Even to the some what overbearingly dense vocal harmaonies of Clannad.
Any way, we have to thank the pioneers in traditional music. I know that sounds like a oxy moron, pioneer/traditional, but that is the central paradox inherant in good folk music
I think michael's got it right on Carolan. He was successful as a big fish in a small sea; if he had gone to Italy (calling himself Carolanni no doubt!) he would probably have sunk without trace as far as posterity is concerned. To be frank, he just wasn't in Vivaldi's league, but in those days only a handful of musicians in Europe were. But we must be for ever grateful that, remaining in Ireland as he did, he has left a legacy of a couple of hundred tunes that will always be with us.
-m
Dear Idgie,
If it is the sound you want to get, have you tried the Hohner AUTO VALVE. It's not cheap but it is fitted with air saving valves ( like an accordion ) Many regard it as a replacement for the Regulation Band. A lovely musette type tone
Good music shops stock them ( incl. 1 in N.Irel.
regards ,
John. P.
If you want to go academic on the subjects of harmony, modal scales, counterpoint, etc, look at the very good articles in Microsoft's Encarta (2002 and later). There's also very good stuff in Britannica, as you'd expect, but it's less well laid out and not so easy to read.
gaelic harmonies
gaelic harmonies
Hi, does anybody have any idea where I can learn more about Gaelic harmonies. You know the stufft that is so often fused with popular music eg Clannad etc. I want to know the nature of the harmonies etc, availalbe scores to analyse that knida thing.
Peace
Idgie
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by idgie
Re: gaelic harmonies
Tough on this, as any purist will tell you that there is NO harmony in "real" gaelic music. All the harmonies you hear are modern concoctions using rules less sophisticated than Bach (with a little blues thrown in). Read the posting not so long ago about playing harmonies
# Posted on November 14th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: gaelic harmonies
True enough Michael, but it is those harmonies that make the music accessable to a wider audience and out of that wider audience we attract more players! Good thing, right?
Idgie, if you're determined to find out a bit more of what's going on in the background with the modern artists, I'd think that sitting down at a piano and just tapping away should do the trick. If you don't make any headway, almost any person with academic musical training could help you pull out the harmonies on the fly.
Good luck and have fun!
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: gaelic harmonies
It's hard to think that the harp, as ancient an instrument as any, would have been used strictly for melody, since it's so perfectly suited for chordal considerations. Surely Carolan and people like him arose out of some kind of tradition other than just standard Euro-classical.
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: gaelic harmonies
Yes harmony is a goog thing.
And yes, you would think that a harp player would have naturally used harmony. But there are those who argue that they didn't. (worth pointing out that the late great ding dong Derick Bell was not one of those)
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: gaelic harmonies
I like those points cuchulain, but I wonder how 'irish' Carolan tunes really were. He wrote beautiful tunes (despite the likely botching of them by the musicologists of the time), but altogether, I believe his music was mostly influenced by what his audience wanted, and they wanted euro-classical chamber music. The rich and well-to-do (his patrons) wanted to hear more fashionable music.
(Oh, I wish I could find some sources on the web so I could back up what I remember reading. Perhaps someone will help.)
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: gaelic harmonies
Yes, I think I knew Carolan was trying to write chamber music, but I was just making the point that I don't think he arrived at that point in a vacuum. Unaccompanied melody certainly has its precedent, but I've got to believe musicians were adding at least drones as harmony at a very early stage in musical history in Ireland as well as elsewhere. It sounds so organic and right in Irish music, and on instruments like harp, easily accomplished.
I know a lot of reels and jigs use repeated notes that form a drone-like harmony to the melody, and, especially on the harp, those repeated notes would ring on and on, forming an overall drone to the tune. What harper wouldn't have said, "Hey, cool! I think I'll bring that out a little more!"? And next thing you know, people are sticking drones on their reed instruments and simple harmony is born. I'm making it all up, you understand, but it just makes sense.
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by cuchulain54
Re: gaelic harmonies
As a harper myself, what I understand to be keeping within the old tradition is definitely drones (harpers borrowed from bagpipes, although some harp entusiasts suggest it may even be the other way around!), and also you can always double the melody in the ocatave(s) below--although I gues that's not really melody per se.
# Posted on November 15th 2002 by Andee
Re: gaelic harmonies
The problem with Carolan was that he wanted to be Vivaldi, not some romantic west coast blind sage. Maybe he should have gone to Italy and have done with it. Or maybe he prefered to be the big fish in his little sea.
The conjecture regarding how harmony came about is interesting. I like the conundrum of whether the harp or the bagpipe drone came first. Either way, I'm glad it happened. Even to the some what overbearingly dense vocal harmaonies of Clannad.
Any way, we have to thank the pioneers in traditional music. I know that sounds like a oxy moron, pioneer/traditional, but that is the central paradox inherant in good folk music
# Posted on November 16th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: gaelic harmonies and Carolan
I think michael's got it right on Carolan. He was successful as a big fish in a small sea; if he had gone to Italy (calling himself Carolanni no doubt!) he would probably have sunk without trace as far as posterity is concerned. To be frank, he just wasn't in Vivaldi's league, but in those days only a handful of musicians in Europe were. But we must be for ever grateful that, remaining in Ireland as he did, he has left a legacy of a couple of hundred tunes that will always be with us.
-m
# Posted on November 17th 2002 by lazyhound
Re: gaelic harmonies
Dear Idgie,
If it is the sound you want to get, have you tried the Hohner AUTO VALVE. It's not cheap but it is fitted with air saving valves ( like an accordion ) Many regard it as a replacement for the Regulation Band. A lovely musette type tone
Good music shops stock them ( incl. 1 in N.Irel.
regards ,
John. P.
# Posted on November 18th 2002 by boorinwood
Re: gaelic harmonies
A little known fact, and I swear it is true, the Clannad harmonies were inspired by the Beach Boys.
Alice
# Posted on November 18th 2002 by aliceflynn
Re: gaelic harmonies
Ha ha , the Beach boys? Brilliant observation
# Posted on November 18th 2002 by llig leahcim
Re: gaelic harmonies
If you want to go academic on the subjects of harmony, modal scales, counterpoint, etc, look at the very good articles in Microsoft's Encarta (2002 and later). There's also very good stuff in Britannica, as you'd expect, but it's less well laid out and not so easy to read.
-m
# Posted on November 18th 2002 by lazyhound