So I'm a cellist who is classically trained and who also grew up step-dancing and listening to a ton of Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton music. I'd really love to start actually playing some of this music on my cello and playing in some sessions, only I'm not at all sure how to go about it.
There's really no fiddle tunes sheet music for cello and it's a pain in the ass to have to read things an octave or two down. I do have a good ear and pick things up quickly, which I'm sure would help in this endeavor, but any suggestions would really be appreciated. What would everyone recommend doing?
Learning fiddle?
It wont be as difficult to get in and out of the bars, the strings are cheaper, and when you finally get invited to the after session hooley, you wont have a massive instrument to cart around after you!
Shame, I love the cello and played in a celtic band where the celloist added alot to the music. Unfortunately other musicians may not be so glad to see you coming, although I really hope that isnt the case.
For playing the melody, it would be worth searching the internet for a program which will transpose ABCs, which would mean that you can read the wealth of sheet music available on this site. As you say you have a good ear, however, you would be best off learning the tunes by ear, as that's the ideal way to learn folk music. Other than that, if you copy any guitarists' chords to add bass lines then it can add a lot to sessions - especially scrubbing away rythmic dones. If you get hold of a decent book of fiddle tunes then it should have the chords written in, and you can use these as the basis for any bass line.
Natalie Haas and Alasdair Fraser are doing a concert at Cecil Sharp House, Camden, London, on Wednesday 2nd August 2006, 8pm you can buy £15 tickets from www.cruisecontrolcontra.com
Forget the music, and use your ear.
And don't always try to play everything note for note, there are some great things the cello can do in accompanying.
Agree with advice to listen to the Fraser/Hass CDs for ideas. Also, classical cellist YoYo Ma did some great American trad trio stuff with Mark OConnor and Edgar Meyers, Appalachian somethingorother was the name of the two CDs. It ain't ITM, but you could get some great ideas from how he approached it. Also, there is a young fiddler named Hanneke Cassell from Boston who has a couple of albums out where cellist Rashaad Eggleston plays along, and he has an incredible approach to the music.
Good luck! I love the sound of the cello in this music, and highly encourage its use!
Just a slight correction and elaboration to Al's post: The cellist's name is _Rushad_ Eggleston, and he's every bit as good as advertised. Also very eclectic -- and some would say eccentric -- in his tastes.
Matt and sts,
Thanks for filling in the details that had drifted out of my aging mind.
Young Rushad is indeed eclectic and eccentric, but in the best possible way, quite a creative and interesting young man, with great stage presence!
I don't know what the trad scene is like in your area or if you have any access to a good fiddle teacher, but if you can find an experienced fiddle teacher who's willing to work with you, I think that would be by far the best route. Two of my "fiddle" students right now are actually cellists and we are having a great time figuring out how to make dance tunes sound good and be playable on the cello. If you want I can email you some of the stuff we've been working on.
I advise my students to listen to great fiddlers rather than cellists for tune playing, because the fiddle playing is the primary source for what you want to do. Like it or not there are honestly no Irish trad cello players who rank up there with the top fiddle players.
Also accompaniment in my opinion is a brilliant use of the cello, and a whole other project. On any instrument, you can be a great tune player and have no idea how to accompany or vice versa. But the bottom line for both tune playing and accompaniment obviously is to listen, listen, listen!! I own a couple of obscure recordings with some cool cello accompaniment stuff, if anyone's interested to hear some of it feel free to drop me a line.
Best of luck kirinb, and let me know if you think I can help you out with any of this stuff!!
Another Alasdair Fraser protogée, Renata Bratt, has written a few books on playing trad music for cello, one of which is titled "The Fiddling Cellist."
The description makes it sound like the sort of thing that would help a cellist do all the things cello is good at: melody, rhythm, bass lines. I've played with Renata and I know she's got the goods.
Cello was fairly common in scottish dance music in the 1800s, James Scott Skinner (who became one of scotland's most prolific fiddle players and composers) started playing the cello. So if anyone gives you any stick (especially guitar, zouk, mandolin - ie recent additions to the ITM stable) tell them to b*****r off!!! Assuming you're planning on playing arco, if you fancy a challenge, playing the tunes on the cello in the same ocatve (in thumb position) is possible (bassists have done it) but might be a bit much? Or transpose down two ocatves - i.e. an octave below a viola (llig leahcim aka michael gill might be able to advise on viola playing which you might find useful) and play the tunes. If thats a bit much, playing "vamped" bass lines is also done, and has the advantage that you can improvise without being able to play the tunes. Arpeggiation style bass lines are fairly standard too, so if you wanna be really cheeky, learn the basic chord shapes on guitar and zouk and then just play what they do...
Have you thought about octave fiddle (5th above the cello) - a lot easier to carry into a session, as it's the size of a normal fiddle. Then you could experiment with inner or bass parts. I know that wasn't what you were originally asking, just wondered if you'd heard of these beasties.
Apart from the musical aspects of playing trad on the cello (a big field in its own right) there are the practicalities of playing the instrument in sessions. The two most important points are that the cello needs more space (mainly due to the bow) than most other instruments, and that the cello is the most easily damaged (and most expensive to repair) of the violin family of instruments.
Playing the cello in a gig is rather different; you're in a more protected and controlled playing environment - or should be.
I have been enjoying The Salmon Leap set by Old Blind Dogs recently in my car CD player. Although they're using a bass, I still think there's a lot to be learned here about what low tones can do to round out the sound of the melody instruments.
My advice would be to listen to the music a lot -- maybe go to some sessions just to listen and, if it's okay with the players (always ask first!) to record. Apart from such specific examples in this thread -- and I definitely agree with all the recommendations so far -- I think it takes a lot of getting a feel for the music and mental-work-it-out for any harmonizing instrumentalist to be effective.
I've gotten to the point where I would ban almost no instrument, well-played, from a session. After having had covert dislike of first, the pipes, then the accordion thoroughly routed, I have had no trouble avoiding prejudice against almost anything.
The "almost" is that percussion instrument that sounds like horse's hooves. Rampant use of this instrument, unchecked by the session anchors, was one of three reasons I decided it was no longer worth it to drive an hour each way to a particular session. The other two were another fiddler's consistent "harmonizing" in such a way that there was truly no relationship to the melody , kind of had to be heard to be believed how far off (she was barred from at least one other session that I know of) and a bodhran player who seized control of the rhythm any tune started. Taken together, not worth it. I am not sure what this last paragraph has to do with encouraging you to get into playing this music, but, oh, well....
Hey there just been catching up with all the latest discussions. one trad cellist to definatly check out is Christine Hanson. She does a lot of work (mainly in Scotland) with Bruce MacGregor of Blazin' Fiddles.
If you get the chance get to one of her workshops!!!!!!
her rhythms on the cello are really cool and easy to put to work ina session. Plus she can rip out a great reel on the cello.
For Scottish cello music look for Abby Newton. Her style is more gentle and less percussive than Natalie's. She has several CDs out, (ie. Crossing to Scotland, the tunes of which are in a book of the same name.) I love fiddle and cello together and happily have a cellist friend to play with. We both prefer Natalie's style, but Abby is also wonderful, and she plays more tunes than accompaiment. I have noticed that cello is more accepted these days in traditional music circles.
here you can get the recently published "Session Tunes for Scottish Cellists" I quote:
"...This is a great new cello book for cellists who want to play Scottish tunes. The book contains over 80 great session tunes with helpful fingering and chords added by Scottish cellist Eilidh Martin. Carefully graded with approved levels for SQA exams.
Lots of tunes you have heard the fiddlers play and wanted to join in with!"
I don't have this book yet, but I've had a brief look at it and it looks pretty good; these tunebooks for cello seem to be getting more popular (e.g. Ceilidh Collection for Cello/Bass, and Edward Huws Jones' arrangements - the 'Jigs Reels & More', etc published by Boosey & Hawkes), although there is an emphasis on 'Scottish' mostly.
Why is it specified "for Scottish cellists"? There are other folk cellists, surely? anyway...
I should make mention (as no-one else has) of Richard Bolton, an excellent English cellist who plays with Pete Cooper, and again, I recommend checking out the audacious Rushad Eggleston (ex-Crooked Still).
On another note, I've always dreamed of an octave fiddle that is the size of a small cello rather than a big fiddle (and also played cello-way) - surely it would sound better? You could think of it as a large viola with an E-string, but then, why not keep the C-string too and have a five-string viola? Or an octave lower; a five string cello? Aah, if only...
cello and session playing
cello and session playing
So I'm a cellist who is classically trained and who also grew up step-dancing and listening to a ton of Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton music. I'd really love to start actually playing some of this music on my cello and playing in some sessions, only I'm not at all sure how to go about it.
There's really no fiddle tunes sheet music for cello and it's a pain in the ass to have to read things an octave or two down. I do have a good ear and pick things up quickly, which I'm sure would help in this endeavor, but any suggestions would really be appreciated. What would everyone recommend doing?
Thanks!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by kkmoose13
Re: cello and session playing
Learning fiddle?
It wont be as difficult to get in and out of the bars, the strings are cheaper, and when you finally get invited to the after session hooley, you wont have a massive instrument to cart around after you!
Shame, I love the cello and played in a celtic band where the celloist added alot to the music. Unfortunately other musicians may not be so glad to see you coming, although I really hope that isnt the case.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by blas
Re: cello and session playing
Listen to Natalie Hass
http://www.nataliehaas.com/
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Stewart
Re: cello and session playing
No, I don't want to learn fiddle- I just want to learn to play fiddle music on my cello
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by kkmoose13
Re: cello and session playing
For playing the melody, it would be worth searching the internet for a program which will transpose ABCs, which would mean that you can read the wealth of sheet music available on this site. As you say you have a good ear, however, you would be best off learning the tunes by ear, as that's the ideal way to learn folk music. Other than that, if you copy any guitarists' chords to add bass lines then it can add a lot to sessions - especially scrubbing away rythmic dones. If you get hold of a decent book of fiddle tunes then it should have the chords written in, and you can use these as the basis for any bass line.
Natalie Haas and Alasdair Fraser are doing a concert at Cecil Sharp House, Camden, London, on Wednesday 2nd August 2006, 8pm you can buy £15 tickets from www.cruisecontrolcontra.com
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by barrysmith90
Re: cello and session playing
Forget the music, and use your ear.
And don't always try to play everything note for note, there are some great things the cello can do in accompanying.
Agree with advice to listen to the Fraser/Hass CDs for ideas. Also, classical cellist YoYo Ma did some great American trad trio stuff with Mark OConnor and Edgar Meyers, Appalachian somethingorother was the name of the two CDs. It ain't ITM, but you could get some great ideas from how he approached it. Also, there is a young fiddler named Hanneke Cassell from Boston who has a couple of albums out where cellist Rashaad Eggleston plays along, and he has an incredible approach to the music.
Good luck! I love the sound of the cello in this music, and highly encourage its use!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: cello and session playing
Forget the WRITTEN music, I mean (of course).
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: cello and session playing
I would second the bit about playing by ear. I have a friend who plays cello in the trad session in Sheffield and it can work very,very well.
J
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by jfother
Re: cello and session playing
Check out a cellist named Barry Phillips. He has done some nice recordings of trad music. His record label is: www.gourd.com
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by williamcoulter
Re: cello and session playing
Appalachian Waltz?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Matt_Celta
Re: cello and session playing
Just a slight correction and elaboration to Al's post: The cellist's name is _Rushad_ Eggleston, and he's every bit as good as advertised. Also very eclectic -- and some would say eccentric -- in his tastes.
Check him out here:
http://www.rushadeggleston.com
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by sts
Re: cello and session playing
Matt and sts,
Thanks for filling in the details that had drifted out of my aging mind.
Young Rushad is indeed eclectic and eccentric, but in the best possible way, quite a creative and interesting young man, with great stage presence!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: cello and session playing
RE: "...classical cellist YoYo Ma did some great American trad trio stuff with Mark OConnor and Edgar Meyers, Appalachian somethingorother"
Appalachian Journey
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004S38H/103-3914414-7016630?v=glance&n=5174
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by abuteague
Re: cello and session playing
Appalachian Waltz could also be correct:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002C0Y/103-3914414-7016630?n=5174
I've only listened to Appalachian Journey.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by abuteague
Re: cello and session playing
abuteague,
That's the ones I was thinking of!
Thanks,
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: cello and session playing
Hi guys,
I don't know what the trad scene is like in your area or if you have any access to a good fiddle teacher, but if you can find an experienced fiddle teacher who's willing to work with you, I think that would be by far the best route. Two of my "fiddle" students right now are actually cellists and we are having a great time figuring out how to make dance tunes sound good and be playable on the cello. If you want I can email you some of the stuff we've been working on.
I advise my students to listen to great fiddlers rather than cellists for tune playing, because the fiddle playing is the primary source for what you want to do. Like it or not there are honestly no Irish trad cello players who rank up there with the top fiddle players.
Also accompaniment in my opinion is a brilliant use of the cello, and a whole other project. On any instrument, you can be a great tune player and have no idea how to accompany or vice versa. But the bottom line for both tune playing and accompaniment obviously is to listen, listen, listen!! I own a couple of obscure recordings with some cool cello accompaniment stuff, if anyone's interested to hear some of it feel free to drop me a line.
Best of luck kirinb, and let me know if you think I can help you out with any of this stuff!!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by fiddleplayer
Re: cello and session playing
Another Alasdair Fraser protogée, Renata Bratt, has written a few books on playing trad music for cello, one of which is titled "The Fiddling Cellist."
http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?ProductID=20591BCD
The description makes it sound like the sort of thing that would help a cellist do all the things cello is good at: melody, rhythm, bass lines. I've played with Renata and I know she's got the goods.
Winslow
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Winslow Yerxa
Re: cello and session playing
Cello was fairly common in scottish dance music in the 1800s, James Scott Skinner (who became one of scotland's most prolific fiddle players and composers) started playing the cello. So if anyone gives you any stick (especially guitar, zouk, mandolin - ie recent additions to the ITM stable) tell them to b*****r off!!! Assuming you're planning on playing arco, if you fancy a challenge, playing the tunes on the cello in the same ocatve (in thumb position) is possible (bassists have done it) but might be a bit much? Or transpose down two ocatves - i.e. an octave below a viola (llig leahcim aka michael gill might be able to advise on viola playing which you might find useful) and play the tunes. If thats a bit much, playing "vamped" bass lines is also done, and has the advantage that you can improvise without being able to play the tunes. Arpeggiation style bass lines are fairly standard too, so if you wanna be really cheeky, learn the basic chord shapes on guitar and zouk and then just play what they do...
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Andy V
Re: cello and session playing
Have you thought about octave fiddle (5th above the cello) - a lot easier to carry into a session, as it's the size of a normal fiddle. Then you could experiment with inner or bass parts. I know that wasn't what you were originally asking, just wondered if you'd heard of these beasties.
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Mark Harmer
Re: cello and session playing
Apart from the musical aspects of playing trad on the cello (a big field in its own right) there are the practicalities of playing the instrument in sessions. The two most important points are that the cello needs more space (mainly due to the bow) than most other instruments, and that the cello is the most easily damaged (and most expensive to repair) of the violin family of instruments.
Playing the cello in a gig is rather different; you're in a more protected and controlled playing environment - or should be.
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by lazyhound
Re: cello and session playing
Greetings:
I have been enjoying The Salmon Leap set by Old Blind Dogs recently in my car CD player. Although they're using a bass, I still think there's a lot to be learned here about what low tones can do to round out the sound of the melody instruments.
My advice would be to listen to the music a lot -- maybe go to some sessions just to listen and, if it's okay with the players (always ask first!) to record. Apart from such specific examples in this thread -- and I definitely agree with all the recommendations so far -- I think it takes a lot of getting a feel for the music and mental-work-it-out for any harmonizing instrumentalist to be effective.
I've gotten to the point where I would ban almost no instrument, well-played, from a session. After having had covert dislike of first, the pipes, then the accordion thoroughly routed, I have had no trouble avoiding prejudice against almost anything.
The "almost" is that percussion instrument that sounds like horse's hooves. Rampant use of this instrument, unchecked by the session anchors, was one of three reasons I decided it was no longer worth it to drive an hour each way to a particular session. The other two were another fiddler's consistent "harmonizing" in such a way that there was truly no relationship to the melody , kind of had to be heard to be believed how far off (she was barred from at least one other session that I know of) and a bodhran player who seized control of the rhythm any tune started. Taken together, not worth it. I am not sure what this last paragraph has to do with encouraging you to get into playing this music, but, oh, well....
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by cathrynb
Re: cello and session playing
Some articles on the cello's precedent and current use in traditional music:
http://www.standingstones.com/tradcllo.html
http://www.standingstones.com/celloacc.html
http://www.standingstones.com/cellopost.html
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Tintin
Re: cello and session playing
http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/scottishfiddle.html
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Tintin
Re: cello and session playing
were you at Catskills Irish Arts Week? if you were, were you in Joanie Madden's flute class?
# Posted on July 16th 2006 by rob_handel
Re: cello and session playing
Hey there just been catching up with all the latest discussions. one trad cellist to definatly check out is Christine Hanson. She does a lot of work (mainly in Scotland) with Bruce MacGregor of Blazin' Fiddles.
If you get the chance get to one of her workshops!!!!!!
her rhythms on the cello are really cool and easy to put to work ina session. Plus she can rip out a great reel on the cello.
Good Luck
# Posted on July 24th 2006 by cellodiva
Re: cello and session playing
For Scottish cello music look for Abby Newton. Her style is more gentle and less percussive than Natalie's. She has several CDs out, (ie. Crossing to Scotland, the tunes of which are in a book of the same name.) I love fiddle and cello together and happily have a cellist friend to play with. We both prefer Natalie's style, but Abby is also wonderful, and she plays more tunes than accompaiment. I have noticed that cello is more accepted these days in traditional music circles.
# Posted on October 8th 2006 by Holley
Re: cello and session playing
Aye Stewart, you can also hear Natalie Haas at her MySpace:
http://www.myspace.com/nataliehaas
# Posted on October 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: cello and session playing
http://scotlandsmusic.co.uk/
here you can get the recently published "Session Tunes for Scottish Cellists" I quote:
"...This is a great new cello book for cellists who want to play Scottish tunes. The book contains over 80 great session tunes with helpful fingering and chords added by Scottish cellist Eilidh Martin. Carefully graded with approved levels for SQA exams.
Lots of tunes you have heard the fiddlers play and wanted to join in with!"
I don't have this book yet, but I've had a brief look at it and it looks pretty good; these tunebooks for cello seem to be getting more popular (e.g. Ceilidh Collection for Cello/Bass, and Edward Huws Jones' arrangements - the 'Jigs Reels & More', etc published by Boosey & Hawkes), although there is an emphasis on 'Scottish' mostly.
Why is it specified "for Scottish cellists"? There are other folk cellists, surely? anyway...
I should make mention (as no-one else has) of Richard Bolton, an excellent English cellist who plays with Pete Cooper, and again, I recommend checking out the audacious Rushad Eggleston (ex-Crooked Still).
On another note, I've always dreamed of an octave fiddle that is the size of a small cello rather than a big fiddle (and also played cello-way) - surely it would sound better? You could think of it as a large viola with an E-string, but then, why not keep the C-string too and have a five-string viola? Or an octave lower; a five string cello? Aah, if only...
# Posted on January 4th 2008 by fynnjamin