Our fiddler is suddenly under the impression that ALL reels should be played with swing. I think it's not necessary all the time. She says it's the Irish thing to do. She also thinks you should swing it more the faster you get and I find that difficult. So what do y'all think?
The issue specifically came up in interpreting Tam Lin reel and Man of the House.
What you don't want to do is go looking for a rule that you can quote at somebody who doesn't know what the music should sound like.
What you do want to do - both of you - is listen to enough good playing to know what goes on out there. Then you can't go wrong - and words like swing and should won't even come into it.
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's how I see it.
I certainly don’t think everybody should swing (or not swing) every reel, but It doesn’t bother me it a person puts a slight swing in all of *their*reels. It also depends on how much swing you’re talking about. A pronounced swing doesn’t really work at a supersonic tempo.
Some people do... some don't. It's a style that you can either take or leave. I find that a lot of players use it very subtly, and others will use it more noticeably. Frankie Gavin is a man who likes to use it, but Paddy Keenan doesn't. I once saw the two of them play together. It sounded like a musical steamroller was chasing Frankie around.
I'm not sure that it's all swung as such, but I don't think it's ever truly straight... I think that's when the 'lilt' comes in. Not quite a swing but not quite straight... I'm useless at talking about the music, I should stick to playing it!
As an American who was weaned on Dixieland jazz, I find it hard not to swing at least a little.
But there is a happy medium on swing, and that happy medium is difficult to define, since swing is one of those things that you have to hear and feel, it isn't something that shows up in dots or ABCs.
I would say that you shouldn't play all reels, or all of any type of tune, exactly the same--variety is the spice of life and the beauty of many of these tunes is that they often suggest, or can be enlivened by, different approaches.
Tam Lin a tune that often gets swung pretty hard, because for some reason I can't explain, it is the type of tune where fiddlers can get a little groove going.
"...it isn't something that shows up in dots or ABCs." - I've been trying to explain this to the swing fanatics in the tune section, but they aren't having any of it.
It's true though, it can't be notated... it's not so much a technique as a quality... it's a feel in the music. If you but a dotted rhythm into a reel and then play it exactly as written it still won't sound right. You'd have to be using really stupid note lengths to get it right.
Well, some kinds of swing can be notated. Some people play with a triplet swing, like swing jazz, or with a true dotted swing. Those are easily notated, but most ITM swing seems to be less pronounced and not necessarily constant. Writing the dots for it might be technically possible in *some* cases, but it would be a worthless academic exercise because it would be an unreadable mess.
And besides anything that would be defying the point of trad in my opinion; the element of personal interpretation. Having been brought up under the classical whip on piano (never played any classical violin tho') what I really love about trad is that I never play any tune the same way twice, and what's more, I'm not expected to. The only reason I can see to notate the swing in trad is if you were doing a supremely accurate transcription of someone's playing - definitely not if you're just notating a basic melody for someone to learn, as we are on this site.
It's for the same reason that I don't like to put ornamentation or even chords in ABCs or dots unless it's for one of my beginner pupils, or it's a specific transcription of someone's playing. Even then I try to avoid it and just guide them as to the possibilities for what could go where. I've met some players who are technically brilliant, but as soon as you've heard them play a tune through once you never need to hear them play it again, because it'll always be the same... several of those players have attributed that problem to learning from written music where everything was written down for them. But that's going off topic, sorry!
all depends on the particular tune, the tempest and alot of minor'ish' tunes sound nice and creepy played straight, while others need that slight swinginess, i think its easier to learn the rythm of tunes if u give it that swing, cos u can always unswing it later, do i make any sense r am i just stoned!
The point is... why notate the swing? If someone wants to give it swing it's their choice. As Tize said, "... definitely not if you're just notating a basic melody for someone to learn, as we are on this site."
I think it’s fair to try to notate a tune in whatever way best approximates the way you know the tune. If I were submitting a tune that I heard, or that I play, with a pronounced swing, I would notate it with the swing just because that would more accurately represent the tune as I know it. If I heard it or played it with a subtle swing, I’d notate it without any swing and discuss it in the comments.
Bob I can see your point, but I disagree I'm afraid! No two people are going to hear the tune the same way, so is it really right to submit the with swing 'in the way you know it'? I know to an extent that's all we can do; we can't take the tune right back to it's simplest original form because who's to say what that is... but, for instance, you wouldn't submit a tune with every little nuance of your playing in it, because no-one else would play it that way. Same with the swing thing... I think it's as personal a thing as ornamentation... otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion I guess!
Take the Road to Lisdoonvarna (just because I was discussing this with someone today). The setting I learnt it from was that on Providence's Fig For a Kiss. There it's heavily swung and steady. It was played in a session in Miltown last week at a fair speed without much swing... although I knew that I knew the tune and was able to play along with it without a bother, it wasn't until I got home and ABC searched it to find a name that I realised it was the same tune. So swing can have a drastic effect on the way you hear and recall a tune... for those people who find it difficult to play a tune unless they can place/name it, then you're creating problems! If the person who submitted that tune had submitted Providence's setting, then I guess a lot of people would be very confused when they heard the faster, straighter, reel version in a session... whereas if it were submitted in its simplest form, i.e. without swing, it'd be a lot easier to recognise.
Sorry, that's probably very rambly - I'm tired and all tuned out for the day!
Someone told me that American fiddlers tend to play the music with more of a "swing" feel. The Irish play with a LIFT and "up & down" rhythm or feel...the way I think you should play the music!
If you are in a band and arguing about how things should be played, that tells me that like alot of trad. bands, there is no common goal or defining element to what you are doing. That's not a slam, its just what a lot of musicians struggle with in band situations... here in the US most Irish bands are playin tunes from recordings of established bands... I personally don't enjoy that approach. Band's like Altan have decided on a specific approach to their music and they are all on board supporting their contemporary Donegal theme. They dig up tunes from rare recordings, field recordings or tunes in local tradition and create their own "settings." They set the standard because they are the ARTISTS. So I wouldnt recommend arguing over a particular "tune" try working out a "theme " or direction that everyone can grab on to. That's the challenge.
Well, I've been pondering this swing thing lately myself - comparing Martin Byrnes' venerable but straight up Duke of Leinster with John Vesey (and Eddie Cahill)'s swinging Duke, which scoots along in a remarkable sort of way. I used to love the tune, but now I am in love with it all over again.
I feel quite sad that nobody has even pointed out how the dancers fit into all of this. I'm glad that we have dancers at our session every week. Swing puts spaces in the music and gives the dancers time to do some fancy footwork and create exciting rhythms. Take the swing out and you just get a flat stream of notes and a load of unhappy dancers. Dancers don't want di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di. They want die-di diddley-um-di diddley dee. "Who cares?" I hear you say, "it's not about dancers anymore". Well fair enough. It all depends on your take on the music. The point when the music got separated from the dances - I personally think that's when the music went all to pot and began to attract up-themselves speed freaks who like to steamroller over the tunes.
Sorry, I'm rattling my bones and cage here with excitement ~ somebody mentioned 'DANCERS' in respect of 'DANCE MUSIC' ~ and it wasn't me... I had to come out of the lurk mode. HALELLUJAH!!! ~ pass the mustard...
I'd also like to put my name in for the band "The Up-Themselves Speed Freaks" ~ the trick being not to meet people's expectations but to play everything at a nice lilting pace...
Oh yeah, thinking about the topic, and fully in agreement that if you have another way with a tune, swung or not, or other options ~ PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ~ give it to us in the 'comments'...always valued by the majority here, at least I imagine that.
Here's a sample of two measures 'flat out', anything off a basic beat ironed out of them, though worse damage could be done:
~ | G A G E | G A G E | ~ 2/4? ~ 3/4? ~ 4/4? ~ 6/8? ~ ???
This combination of notes could fit any number of tunes of different time signatures, but let's take one of those that is sometimes notated as 2/4 and sometimes notated as 4/4, a march. All 64 measures of this particular march, 'gan ainm' to protect the innocent, can be taken this way:
| NN NN | or |N2 N2 N2 N2 | ~ all 64 of them.
If this march were to be written in this stark fashion, completely flat out, you might recognize it, but I can promise it wouldn't do much for you, but I think more importantly ~ I have never ever heard it played that way, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to do so. It takes on a number of types of swing, N>N & N3 N for two examples, and that can be varied by the player, rhythmic play is part of the fun of marches, of any tune. Choosing to not notate any of these possibilities and doing the whole damn thing as | N2 N2 N2 N2 | and it looks like and sounds like shight ~ a personal opinion...
But, being repetitive, it comes down to your ears. If your fiddler is someone who has chosen the way of swing, well hell, if they are doing a particular contribution set wise, why not follow them, and expect or request the same consideration from them if someone else chooses to contribute something more straight. The contrast alone, between sets, would be interesting, but as some have suggested previously, back to the ears, know the origins, educate your ears and your understanding. And if you want a cohesive 'group', it may be another decision to make, along MH's comment ~ where do you want to go collectively, what 'identity' do you want. Being 'distinct' is a good thing.
Hell, just taking fiddlers alone, but it applies across the board, I've never heard tow that were identical, well, almost never. I remember a tale told by a certain travelling collector who had a great appreciation for that regional and individual take on things, collecting in Clare. He hadn't much in the way of dosh to reward his sources, but he'd send a few bob in the post as a thank you for their time ~ except for those rare few who only got a few flippant sentences about their copying ~ usually Coleman accolites ~ those who were so enamoured with Michael Coleman that they spent an unbelievable amount of time glued to the Victrola trying to copy everything the man did, note for note, tune set for tune set, in neglect of the music all around them locally and regionally...
If you are going to play every tune with swing, then all your feckin' tunes are going to end up sounding the same so you might as well sit & play the same feckin tune all night!
The only rule is, there are no rules!
But if you want my thought, here it is, try & make every tune sound individual, they all have different names so try & make them all sound like no other.
Speaking of dancers Dow, what about the way the music is baxstardised to suit those wee step dancers & their riverdance curls. let's not confuse that with what set dancers are looking for in the music.
Unfortunately, over here at least, loads of set dancers are guilty of forcing the music to be played faster & faster to silly speeds that just destroy the tunes! So, in fact, there are loads of "up-themselves speed freak" dancers too, that we need to be wary of!
So let's not just listen blindly to 'all' dancers shall we, without being VERY CAREFUL! They don't have all the answers!
Yeah irishfiddler. "Someone told me that American fiddlers tend to play the music with more of a "swing" feel" that's interesting.
Now I know what I'm going to say might sound blasphemous, but her royal highness, the queen bee herself, Liz Carroll, was on RTE many years ago & she played a couple of her own tunes first, with plenty of that old U S swing & then she announced that her next two tunes were 2 old Clare tunes & she was going to be playing them the way they were played in Clare - but they still had that U S swing which made them sound nothing like Clare playing at all!
Maybe there'\s a lesson there that you need to be very careful not to swing all your tunes?
I think Liz Carroll has beautiful swing in her playing. If she wanted to play wall-to-wall reels and swing them all night I would be quite happy to listen and learn.
Granted Dow, but that's not the only way to play those tunes, nor necessarily the best way for all of them to be played.
I love the way Micko Russell played his tunes, & I could listen to him play all night, but the next night I'd want to listen to a completely different style.
Oh & I certainly would have no desire to listen to wall-to-wall reels all night long anyway, it wouldn't matter who was playing, sorry.
I feel ITM has so much more to offer than mind-numbing wall-to-wall, non-stop 4/4
Agreed Dick - but some dances really do need it whipped up. Listen to Jim McGrath from Fermanagh on the box. His playing is close to the speed of light at times but still bloody marvellous for all that. And when you see what the set dancers are doing to his music sure it lifts yer heart.
Doesn't mean that he is up his arse speed freaking.
For me there are some tunes [incl reels] that need that lazy swing and slow powerful drive and others that I like to beat out at a fair clip. Rip the Calico, for example is one of those that I'll whiz through.
With you there B, heard Jim & the gang up at UAFP a couple of weeks ago - deadly outfit altogether!
Agreed, some tunes simply demand to be played FAST!
Polkas for example.
Sadly, I've heard Polkas played like marches up here & that really really makes my teeth itch & my skin crawl!
In Scotland, I used to hear them announce a set of Polkas at ye olde Fiddle & Accordion clubs & jayzus only knows what they were playing, but I'm sure they'd have been feckin chased out of Kerry for butchering tunes that way!
What occurs (if it ain't got) when it don't mean a thing if?
A friend of mine transcribed the Steampacket (Mountain Lark) reel from pipers Patsy Touhey, Liam Walsh, and Willie Clancy. He set Touhey and Walsh in 12/8 - you look at that and listen to the music, and start to nod your head. The more foursquare Clance makes more sense in ol' 4/4.
Road to Lisdoonvarna is a good tune to bring in here, get out the music for the slide (12/8) and listen to someone play it as a reel. Hrmmm!
Most old musos had a lot of swing - seemed to be a pan-Ireland phenomenon, too. I'd agree that it was for dancers, especially of the stepping variety. Some vintage players were a bit more straight ahead though - Johnny Doran or Doherty, for instance.
Playing pipes/fiddle/flute I can say that it's nothing to get some swing out of the flute or whistle - I'm not always happy with what comes out of the chanter - fiddle I need more practice I guess. Whistle's a no-brainer instrument to play of course, box is very "easy." Sort of; with the pipes you're often fighting to get what you want, is my point. Pipers have lost touch with swing these days, if you ask me.
Some tunes have built-in schwing, I agree.
Hey Ptarm ~ it used to be the other way around ~ step dancers wanting it at funerary paces without any embellishment of any kind, no ornamentation or variations ~ piano accordions prefered... And then, absolutely no LIVE music, as that just isn't dependable, only certain 'approved' recordings... The music was secondary, the dance was the main thing, that diddly stuff going on in the background is just to establish a beat... Hey Lambeg drummers, there's an untapped opportunity for yuh...
About your wanting polkas played up Ulster way in a Kerry style ~ hmmmm. I guess the Northern traditions are still going down the sh*t hole, eh? ~ or being Dublinized and Kerrificated... I hope not altogether...
I've been listening to lots of ITM on my computer at half speed. It seems that there's always swing on reels and jigs. Sometimes it is clear. Sometimes it is very subtle.
Do any of the pros play completely straight at danceable tempos? In the past, were different regions of Ireland known for being straight?
To me, a jig with no swing sounds like a machine gun firing.
'Danceable tempos', now there's a concept! I've played for set dances down in Kerry where I've been exhausted after a set with the speed of it, let alone the dancers. Then I've played for set dances where it's been nice and laid back. I've played for solo dancers where they've said, "play whatever tempo you normally play at" and that's been cool for them. Just last week in Miltown Malbay a friend of mine came and danced a few steps for us. She did steps to jigs and to reels and she had no say in the speed - we just played in the same way we'd been playing the whole session - but that was fine with her. But then I've played for competition style step dancers where I've been asked to slow a jig down so much that it actually turned into a waltz. No word of a lie there; more than once I've given in and just played a waltz instead of a funeral-march speed jig because it makes for nicer music! So to define a danceable tempo is near impossible.
In terms of regional styles, Donegal would probably be the straightest style, because of the influence of Scottish music in that region... that because of the migration between Ulster and Scotland since the 1600s.
In most American trad music, we certainly do tend to play a tune either very straight or with a definite triplet swing. I’ve been trying to break the habit for a long time but I still slip into it.
There’s a tune I wrote that I always play with a solid swing and I would never play it straight. To me, it’s part of the tune, not a personal interpretation. (Is that a mainly American attitude?) If I were to inflict the tune on the sesh database, I would definitely notate it with the swing. I wouldn’t mind at all if somebody else played it straight or swung it differently, but to me it would sound like a novelty variation.
Hey Ceolachan, do you seriously suspect that this site is 'infested' with legions of Lambeg Drummers waiting for your advice?
But seriously, I've played only once for step dancers & never again - I swear (fcuk!).
It was a horrendous experience - we had to literally brutalise the tunes to make them suitable for that step dance crap!
I've seen Clare musicians play delightful music at a reasonable pace & the set dancers have a whale of a time. Isn't it the case that the 'lift' is more important than the speed, for dancers as well as musicians?
* Uh oh, poor Al is back. Hi Al! I take it you like the latest contributions...
* Me too Tiz, just this week one of our less able musicians, a kind man but losing his memory with age, played for a stepper, hard shoe, and that dancer let him set the pace, though I did start him off at a more controlable pace. Even though he didn't pick up the clues as to when she wanted to stop, and he didn't quite hold it steady ~ she had only thanks and praise for him. Now that kind of dancer is much appreciated...
I've also played with and played for and danced to music down Sliabh Luachra area, over years, and it has changed, aside from the influx of city folk that regularly take up space there on their holidays ~ and are particularly fond of speed.
When I first had the pleasure of Johnny O'Leary's music and dancing in Dan O'Connoll's pub the average was one set, and it was nicely laid back, not rushed or furious or encumbered by any loud banging, aside from Dan's love for jumping about when he was on the dance floor. We just made room for his occassional leaps...
* I like you Ptarm, you didn't rise to the bait... I forgot to mention 'Comhaltasillifinationed' in my little harrangue. Note though, I don't rail on about anything unless it is fueled at least in part by personal guilt... I won't go there too far, but there was that Monaghan lot who in wanting a set to enter into the competition spent hours in front of the tele and viewing videos in an effort to create a Monaghan set. At the time the polka sets were doing well, so they borrowed steps and tunes and created some Frankenstein of a Monaghan set... Hell, they weren't the only ones fekin' about with the tradition...
STRAIGHT!? ~ YES! ~ there is a tradition that very much takes things straight and flat out and have established such traditions since the mid 1930's ~ THE SESSION!!!
One of the best things I ever did was take adult step dance and ceilidhe dance classes with my wife for a couple of years--I was a horrid step dancer, and only a passable ceilidhe dancer, but I learned LOTS about the rhythm of the music as part of that experience. Kind of like the week of lessons on bodhran I took from Myron Breckholtz at the first Gaelic Roots festival I attended in Boston--I never played the drum again, but he gave me an excellent insight into the pulse of things.
I would love to play for ceilidhes, but would not play for step dancers voluntarily--here in the US, they almost always dance to recorded music, and their idea of an appropriate pace is way too demanding and rigid.
I personally like the "swing" feel that Liz has in her fiddle playing, it's refreshing. I like everything she does, but the true Irish fiddlers make me believe the music more because of their "lift". I also think they know when and when not to add the small amount of swing to vary the music, without taking it to far from the original. Now lift I don't necessarily think has to be right on the rhythm or right on the beat. There still is that certain amount of stretching or space between notes when playing with true "lift". More like phrasing or something.... anyone fallow?
Also, am I the only one who thinks Liz Carroll has a modern feel to her music? I just can’t make myself believe that what she plays is 100% trad. I know she writes a lot of her tunes, and that would make since for her music to sound just a tiny bit modern, but even when she plays the old tunes she has a very different take on them. But don't get me wrong, I love her music!
Chicago is another state of mind and music...and that isn't necessarily meant as a criticism.
Getting something akin to swing and lift is very much about the dance in the music. Most of the older players danced, that was something taken for granted. Many fine players nowadays also dance, but much of where the music is bubbling up from has the pub scene, sessions, and mostly dance free zones. Hell, the Dance Hall act of 1935 made it illegal. Now we've suffered through a kind of 'revival' of it all, especially sets which rose up and took over much, including The Willy Clancy Summer School, in the 80's. This dance mania was very much 'driven' by driven people, most of that driving force being from Dublin and Cork ~ and London... It went from something in certain quarters that was frowned on and even outlawed, and still is by some, to something embraced as a new means for winning medals ~ and for sweating out the angst of city life's pressures.
Those sort of influences can only mean change. If you listen to the earliest recordings, hell, even just from the mid 20th Century, and since polkas have been raised earlier, polkas by Clare players, from Ulster ~ they are just so damned nice and relaxed. You could dance and socialize and exercize some stepping all in the same breath. Even Johnny O'Leary spoke against the change in the privacy of his own friends and home.
Some of the commercial tapes that came out to accompany the growing interest in sets further promoted the speed and the 'flat out' approach to things. Some were so damned fast and twisted that when reintroduced to the local musicans and dancers of the set recorded ~ they just laughed. They were usually found too fast to dance too, amongst the 'regular folk' and just not 'right' either. Adrenalin and the forces of 'organization' and 'fad' can do funny things to the object of their passions ~ mostly not good... ~ a personal view...
Damn, is that your house Ptarm? ~ or is that the secret trap door for step dancers? Yeah, I'll play for you, but step into this here dancing booth.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
I love a lot of the stuff LizC does, but sometimes, especially on her own tunes, she sounds like she’s doing practice drills for ornamentation instead of playing a tune. And I’ve eventually found myself agreeing with Ptarm-again that she sounds very American. Whatever that means.
WHAT?!!? ~ nice one... I suppose the aside about sessions didn't catch anyone enough? But I was serious and not being flippant. What about ASSOCIATION? It you take the history of the session, not just the stuff that drove the music out of the houses and away from crossroads and platforms and dancers and into the pubs ~ you have to also consider the other changes that accompanied that ~ in the substance and choice of what happened in that new environment, from the loss of recitation and song, in the larger percentage of venues, to the preponderance of REELS...a huge imbalance from the normal dance setting.
So, REELS ~ what percentage? I have been in sessions where I don't think anything else was played, but mostly, a set or two of hornpipes leaks in, maybe a few sets of jigs, and that is mostly the full of it. Though some of you have been building toward greater variety in you sessions ~ that is, possibly, something of a 'newish' movement, in part probably due to some of the recordings, like the Chieftains, whether or not they are to everyone's tastses. They even brought in 'foreign' influences from other Celtic and relate realms, like Brittany and North America.
But back to REELS ~ if you were a lonesome set of hornpipes all on your own, surrounded by the ruling class REELS ~ isn't it natural for that influence to have its effect? ~ to generally bring most things down to it's own level and way ~ tempo wise and treatment wise. If your barrelling through reel after reel and then just pop in a hornpipe ~ well, over time, don't you think things would change. Even the practice of reel after reel, sets, sessions ~ is alien to the origins of the music with the dance ~ and the gatherings at houses and crossroads and ~ with the chat and the recitations and the songs and good home baked bread and fresh churned butter... No, it isn't a myth, I've had the fortune of having experienced that, and not just the once... I'll take that over a session any day...
So, about swing and lift ~ as someone said earlier, much of that is taken from the dance in the music, from having dancers in front of you, from that completeness, which the 20th century tradition of the session is just not a party to... BUT ~ some folks are lucky and inspired and are doing their damnedest to bring things back together again ~ and I don't mean necessarily the 'ORGANIZATIONS', who too often seem to have ulterior motives and vested interests...
Is it how a constant stream of water wears a a groove in the land and breaks it up and takes the stone and wears it down to 'round' and eventually sand? Maybe a constant stream of reels and sameness does the same thing to the music? ~ losing the 'dance' in it, grinding it out?
One of the local musos is a gal whistler/pianist who's been at it since the 70's, she was talking about playing for sets, and how sometimes visiting bands will play for the dancers, not always to good effect - "They're pinning 'em to the floor!" So I asked if she ever bothered playing for steppers. Might as well have asked if she played for those people that juggle chainsaws.
This in Portland, which (people always tell me) has a "great Irish music scene." So the foot- and finger- work don't seem to have much in common anymore.
Never liked the session-in-pub, trad equivalent of fast food. Reels are french fries. Bad for the music's health.
There!
American fiddle- its easy to generalize when talking about American fiddle players or specifically those in the USA... Unfortunately regional styles are pretty much dead and bluegrass has poisoned all the water.... American trad. music and EVEN Appalachian music was at one time filled with variety... reels, hornpipes, jigs, cotillions, waltzes, mazurkas etc. Recordings of square dance or string bands in the early 1900's were a huge influence or hinderance to all these tune types with stereotypical "fruit jar" "moonshiner" names and speedy tunes with little variety. One thing that was once true about fiddlers in the US is that they were all very unique and creative. but within their region or style... John Doherty comes to mind as a very unique Irish fiddler who was super creative WITHIN his style or type of fiddling... SInce Ulster was a huge part of the make up of AMerican culture on the frontier, I still find myself gravitating towards Donegal styles and Scottish styles as I study and compare tunes with the region of the US Im interested in (MidATlantic/Upper South Highlands.) As far as "swing" for older generations it was present, but didn't overtake every tune... although not as clearly defined in the US, the rhythms of Donegal music were all present... from the straight driving reel to the stately march to the "highland" half reel half hornpipe type tunes. As for US "Irish" fiddlers specifically.... I can't comment because I don't listen to many modern fiddlers.
~ schottisches, polkas, single jigs, quicksteps, rags, marches ~ Ah yes... It is a difficult problem delving into regional styles, in that even within an identified body of tunes and ways, Johnny Doherty was also unique, as was Simon, and the Cassidy's and ~ so was it true with North America, Canada and the U.S.A... Competitions, just as elsewhere, for example Eire, had their heavy hand with twisting everything toward a 'standard'... Too often, back in Eire again, I've seen a fine traditional player, someone steeped in their area's traditions and buzzing with the dance, lose out to some acrobatic wonder who'd cut their teeth on the commercial big city recordings. It's not new, there was Coleman and Morrison, then there were Planxty and The Bothy Band and The Chieftains and ~...
I don't think it's necessarily wrong or bad that the waters get disturbed and muddied, just so long as the mud can settle again, the waters find some clarity and the life in those waters find some oxygen... And the view again is varied and interesting... It isn't that I don't appreciate the art behind it, but some ways with bluegrass are akin to the MacDonald's of music, fast food, deep fat fried, greasy and fattening...
Case study:
I've spent all day listening to Charlie Parker and Thelmonious Monk...
I get a little drunk, spoke a little wack toback, kinick kinick, and show up at Irish music session gung ho... and ready to go.
Before I sit down, the alpha recorded contorted fiddler says "Joe, why don't you give us a reel." Knowing fully well that I'm going to be going to the four four beat in my heart.
I pound into a simple standard set and she begins making weird faces to others and being non verbally derrogative and passive aggressive.
When I finish, she says "joe, do you know that it is very hard to play along with you, you are swinging or something."
Next time, you start it!!!!!! I haven't been back to that session. It was a mistake, forgive me, tar and feather me, take me out the lot and give me a good working over. Maybe knock some sense into me.
Different sessions go to different beats and forgive me if I need to hear a reel played a few times before I get off the syncopated beat and onto your step....
So maybe I'm not the best musician, but how can you live in America and not beable to swing?
Swing or not to swing?
Swing or not to swing?
Our fiddler is suddenly under the impression that ALL reels should be played with swing. I think it's not necessary all the time. She says it's the Irish thing to do. She also thinks you should swing it more the faster you get and I find that difficult. So what do y'all think?
The issue specifically came up in interpreting Tam Lin reel and Man of the House.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by harpalaska
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Well, you know what they say… “t don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that dotted rhythm.”
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
What you don't want to do is go looking for a rule that you can quote at somebody who doesn't know what the music should sound like.
What you do want to do - both of you - is listen to enough good playing to know what goes on out there. Then you can't go wrong - and words like swing and should won't even come into it.
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but that's how I see it.
Cheers
Steve
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I lost my 'I'!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I agree with Steve. Well put.
I certainly don’t think everybody should swing (or not swing) every reel, but It doesn’t bother me it a person puts a slight swing in all of *their*reels. It also depends on how much swing you’re talking about. A pronounced swing doesn’t really work at a supersonic tempo.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Some people do... some don't. It's a style that you can either take or leave. I find that a lot of players use it very subtly, and others will use it more noticeably. Frankie Gavin is a man who likes to use it, but Paddy Keenan doesn't. I once saw the two of them play together. It sounded like a musical steamroller was chasing Frankie around.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I'm not sure that it's all swung as such, but I don't think it's ever truly straight... I think that's when the 'lilt' comes in. Not quite a swing but not quite straight... I'm useless at talking about the music, I should stick to playing it!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Tize
Re: Swing or not to swing?
As an American who was weaned on Dixieland jazz, I find it hard not to swing at least a little.
But there is a happy medium on swing, and that happy medium is difficult to define, since swing is one of those things that you have to hear and feel, it isn't something that shows up in dots or ABCs.
I would say that you shouldn't play all reels, or all of any type of tune, exactly the same--variety is the spice of life and the beauty of many of these tunes is that they often suggest, or can be enlivened by, different approaches.
Tam Lin a tune that often gets swung pretty hard, because for some reason I can't explain, it is the type of tune where fiddlers can get a little groove going.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Swing or not to swing?
"...it isn't something that shows up in dots or ABCs." - I've been trying to explain this to the swing fanatics in the tune section, but they aren't having any of it.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Swing or not to swing?
It's true though, it can't be notated... it's not so much a technique as a quality... it's a feel in the music. If you but a dotted rhythm into a reel and then play it exactly as written it still won't sound right. You'd have to be using really stupid note lengths to get it right.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Tize
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Well, some kinds of swing can be notated. Some people play with a triplet swing, like swing jazz, or with a true dotted swing. Those are easily notated, but most ITM swing seems to be less pronounced and not necessarily constant. Writing the dots for it might be technically possible in *some* cases, but it would be a worthless academic exercise because it would be an unreadable mess.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
And besides anything that would be defying the point of trad in my opinion; the element of personal interpretation. Having been brought up under the classical whip on piano (never played any classical violin tho') what I really love about trad is that I never play any tune the same way twice, and what's more, I'm not expected to. The only reason I can see to notate the swing in trad is if you were doing a supremely accurate transcription of someone's playing - definitely not if you're just notating a basic melody for someone to learn, as we are on this site.
It's for the same reason that I don't like to put ornamentation or even chords in ABCs or dots unless it's for one of my beginner pupils, or it's a specific transcription of someone's playing. Even then I try to avoid it and just guide them as to the possibilities for what could go where. I've met some players who are technically brilliant, but as soon as you've heard them play a tune through once you never need to hear them play it again, because it'll always be the same... several of those players have attributed that problem to learning from written music where everything was written down for them. But that's going off topic, sorry!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Tize
Re: Swing or not to swing?
all depends on the particular tune, the tempest and alot of minor'ish' tunes sound nice and creepy played straight, while others need that slight swinginess, i think its easier to learn the rythm of tunes if u give it that swing, cos u can always unswing it later, do i make any sense r am i just stoned!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by poldebrun
Re: Swing or not to swing?
The point is... why notate the swing? If someone wants to give it swing it's their choice. As Tize said, "... definitely not if you're just notating a basic melody for someone to learn, as we are on this site."
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Swing or not to swing?
> ears what I tink <
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I think it’s fair to try to notate a tune in whatever way best approximates the way you know the tune. If I were submitting a tune that I heard, or that I play, with a pronounced swing, I would notate it with the swing just because that would more accurately represent the tune as I know it. If I heard it or played it with a subtle swing, I’d notate it without any swing and discuss it in the comments.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Bob I can see your point, but I disagree I'm afraid! No two people are going to hear the tune the same way, so is it really right to submit the with swing 'in the way you know it'? I know to an extent that's all we can do; we can't take the tune right back to it's simplest original form because who's to say what that is... but, for instance, you wouldn't submit a tune with every little nuance of your playing in it, because no-one else would play it that way. Same with the swing thing... I think it's as personal a thing as ornamentation... otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion I guess!
Take the Road to Lisdoonvarna (just because I was discussing this with someone today). The setting I learnt it from was that on Providence's Fig For a Kiss. There it's heavily swung and steady. It was played in a session in Miltown last week at a fair speed without much swing... although I knew that I knew the tune and was able to play along with it without a bother, it wasn't until I got home and ABC searched it to find a name that I realised it was the same tune. So swing can have a drastic effect on the way you hear and recall a tune... for those people who find it difficult to play a tune unless they can place/name it, then you're creating problems! If the person who submitted that tune had submitted Providence's setting, then I guess a lot of people would be very confused when they heard the faster, straighter, reel version in a session... whereas if it were submitted in its simplest form, i.e. without swing, it'd be a lot easier to recognise.
Sorry, that's probably very rambly - I'm tired and all tuned out for the day!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Tize
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Someone told me that American fiddlers tend to play the music with more of a "swing" feel. The Irish play with a LIFT and "up & down" rhythm or feel...the way I think you should play the music!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by irishfiddler
Re: Swing or not to swing?
>ears< ~ if your that dependant on the notes, dots or ABC's, you're already lost...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
If you are in a band and arguing about how things should be played, that tells me that like alot of trad. bands, there is no common goal or defining element to what you are doing. That's not a slam, its just what a lot of musicians struggle with in band situations... here in the US most Irish bands are playin tunes from recordings of established bands... I personally don't enjoy that approach. Band's like Altan have decided on a specific approach to their music and they are all on board supporting their contemporary Donegal theme. They dig up tunes from rare recordings, field recordings or tunes in local tradition and create their own "settings." They set the standard because they are the ARTISTS. So I wouldnt recommend arguing over a particular "tune" try working out a "theme " or direction that everyone can grab on to. That's the challenge.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Well, I've been pondering this swing thing lately myself - comparing Martin Byrnes' venerable but straight up Duke of Leinster with John Vesey (and Eddie Cahill)'s swinging Duke, which scoots along in a remarkable sort of way. I used to love the tune, but now I am in love with it all over again.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ratbiscuit
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I feel quite sad that nobody has even pointed out how the dancers fit into all of this. I'm glad that we have dancers at our session every week. Swing puts spaces in the music and gives the dancers time to do some fancy footwork and create exciting rhythms. Take the swing out and you just get a flat stream of notes and a load of unhappy dancers. Dancers don't want di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di-di. They want die-di diddley-um-di diddley dee. "Who cares?" I hear you say, "it's not about dancers anymore". Well fair enough. It all depends on your take on the music. The point when the music got separated from the dances - I personally think that's when the music went all to pot and began to attract up-themselves speed freaks who like to steamroller over the tunes.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Dow
Re: Swing or not to swing?
"The Up-Themselves Speed Freaks" - great name for a band, Dow.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Kenny
Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem Tune Bones ~
Sorry, I'm rattling my bones and cage here with excitement ~ somebody mentioned 'DANCERS' in respect of 'DANCE MUSIC' ~ and it wasn't me... I had to come out of the lurk mode. HALELLUJAH!!! ~ pass the mustard...
I'd also like to put my name in for the band "The Up-Themselves Speed Freaks" ~ the trick being not to meet people's expectations but to play everything at a nice lilting pace...
Oh yeah, thinking about the topic, and fully in agreement that if you have another way with a tune, swung or not, or other options ~ PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ~ give it to us in the 'comments'...always valued by the majority here, at least I imagine that.
Here's a sample of two measures 'flat out', anything off a basic beat ironed out of them, though worse damage could be done:
~ | G A G E | G A G E | ~ 2/4? ~ 3/4? ~ 4/4? ~ 6/8? ~ ???
This combination of notes could fit any number of tunes of different time signatures, but let's take one of those that is sometimes notated as 2/4 and sometimes notated as 4/4, a march. All 64 measures of this particular march, 'gan ainm' to protect the innocent, can be taken this way:
| NN NN | or |N2 N2 N2 N2 | ~ all 64 of them.
If this march were to be written in this stark fashion, completely flat out, you might recognize it, but I can promise it wouldn't do much for you, but I think more importantly ~ I have never ever heard it played that way, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to do so. It takes on a number of types of swing, N>N & N3 N for two examples, and that can be varied by the player, rhythmic play is part of the fun of marches, of any tune. Choosing to not notate any of these possibilities and doing the whole damn thing as | N2 N2 N2 N2 | and it looks like and sounds like shight ~ a personal opinion...
But, being repetitive, it comes down to your ears. If your fiddler is someone who has chosen the way of swing, well hell, if they are doing a particular contribution set wise, why not follow them, and expect or request the same consideration from them if someone else chooses to contribute something more straight. The contrast alone, between sets, would be interesting, but as some have suggested previously, back to the ears, know the origins, educate your ears and your understanding. And if you want a cohesive 'group', it may be another decision to make, along MH's comment ~ where do you want to go collectively, what 'identity' do you want. Being 'distinct' is a good thing.
Hell, just taking fiddlers alone, but it applies across the board, I've never heard tow that were identical, well, almost never. I remember a tale told by a certain travelling collector who had a great appreciation for that regional and individual take on things, collecting in Clare. He hadn't much in the way of dosh to reward his sources, but he'd send a few bob in the post as a thank you for their time ~ except for those rare few who only got a few flippant sentences about their copying ~ usually Coleman accolites ~ those who were so enamoured with Michael Coleman that they spent an unbelievable amount of time glued to the Victrola trying to copy everything the man did, note for note, tune set for tune set, in neglect of the music all around them locally and regionally...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/317
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: Swing or not to swing?
nice discussion this one by the way; the link I just provided was not meant in the sense of 'this has all been done before' ...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Henk Bos
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Definitions of swing please?
I know when I'm doing it but would be hard pressed to define it, other than to point to recordings where I *think* it's going on.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by breandan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
If you are going to play every tune with swing, then all your feckin' tunes are going to end up sounding the same so you might as well sit & play the same feckin tune all night!
The only rule is, there are no rules!
But if you want my thought, here it is, try & make every tune sound individual, they all have different names so try & make them all sound like no other.
Speaking of dancers Dow, what about the way the music is baxstardised to suit those wee step dancers & their riverdance curls. let's not confuse that with what set dancers are looking for in the music.
Unfortunately, over here at least, loads of set dancers are guilty of forcing the music to be played faster & faster to silly speeds that just destroy the tunes! So, in fact, there are loads of "up-themselves speed freak" dancers too, that we need to be wary of!
So let's not just listen blindly to 'all' dancers shall we, without being VERY CAREFUL! They don't have all the answers!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Yeah irishfiddler. "Someone told me that American fiddlers tend to play the music with more of a "swing" feel" that's interesting.
Now I know what I'm going to say might sound blasphemous, but her royal highness, the queen bee herself, Liz Carroll, was on RTE many years ago & she played a couple of her own tunes first, with plenty of that old U S swing & then she announced that her next two tunes were 2 old Clare tunes & she was going to be playing them the way they were played in Clare - but they still had that U S swing which made them sound nothing like Clare playing at all!
Maybe there'\s a lesson there that you need to be very careful not to swing all your tunes?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I think Liz Carroll has beautiful swing in her playing. If she wanted to play wall-to-wall reels and swing them all night I would be quite happy to listen and learn.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Dow
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Granted Dow, but that's not the only way to play those tunes, nor necessarily the best way for all of them to be played.
I love the way Micko Russell played his tunes, & I could listen to him play all night, but the next night I'd want to listen to a completely different style.
Oh & I certainly would have no desire to listen to wall-to-wall reels all night long anyway, it wouldn't matter who was playing, sorry.
I feel ITM has so much more to offer than mind-numbing wall-to-wall, non-stop 4/4
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Agreed Dick - but some dances really do need it whipped up. Listen to Jim McGrath from Fermanagh on the box. His playing is close to the speed of light at times but still bloody marvellous for all that. And when you see what the set dancers are doing to his music sure it lifts yer heart.
Doesn't mean that he is up his arse speed freaking.
For me there are some tunes [incl reels] that need that lazy swing and slow powerful drive and others that I like to beat out at a fair clip. Rip the Calico, for example is one of those that I'll whiz through.
Thoughts?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by breandan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
With you there B, heard Jim & the gang up at UAFP a couple of weeks ago - deadly outfit altogether!
Agreed, some tunes simply demand to be played FAST!
Polkas for example.
Sadly, I've heard Polkas played like marches up here & that really really makes my teeth itch & my skin crawl!
In Scotland, I used to hear them announce a set of Polkas at ye olde Fiddle & Accordion clubs & jayzus only knows what they were playing, but I'm sure they'd have been feckin chased out of Kerry for butchering tunes that way!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Definitions of swing please?
"Definitions of swing please?"
What occurs (if it ain't got) when it don't mean a thing if?
A friend of mine transcribed the Steampacket (Mountain Lark) reel from pipers Patsy Touhey, Liam Walsh, and Willie Clancy. He set Touhey and Walsh in 12/8 - you look at that and listen to the music, and start to nod your head. The more foursquare Clance makes more sense in ol' 4/4.
Road to Lisdoonvarna is a good tune to bring in here, get out the music for the slide (12/8) and listen to someone play it as a reel. Hrmmm!
Most old musos had a lot of swing - seemed to be a pan-Ireland phenomenon, too. I'd agree that it was for dancers, especially of the stepping variety. Some vintage players were a bit more straight ahead though - Johnny Doran or Doherty, for instance.
Playing pipes/fiddle/flute I can say that it's nothing to get some swing out of the flute or whistle - I'm not always happy with what comes out of the chanter - fiddle I need more practice I guess. Whistle's a no-brainer instrument to play of course, box is very "easy." Sort of; with the pipes you're often fighting to get what you want, is my point. Pipers have lost touch with swing these days, if you ask me.
Some tunes have built-in schwing, I agree.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Dook---ee-dook---ee-dook---ee-dook ~
Courtesy of the ghostly toggler...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Dook---ee-dook---ee-dook---ee-dook ~
Hey Ptarm ~ it used to be the other way around ~ step dancers wanting it at funerary paces without any embellishment of any kind, no ornamentation or variations ~ piano accordions prefered... And then, absolutely no LIVE music, as that just isn't dependable, only certain 'approved' recordings... The music was secondary, the dance was the main thing, that diddly stuff going on in the background is just to establish a beat... Hey Lambeg drummers, there's an untapped opportunity for yuh...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
About your wanting polkas played up Ulster way in a Kerry style ~ hmmmm. I guess the Northern traditions are still going down the sh*t hole, eh? ~ or being Dublinized and Kerrificated... I hope not altogether...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
If you play a polka with heavy enough triplet swing, doesn't it turn into a slide at some point?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I've been listening to lots of ITM on my computer at half speed. It seems that there's always swing on reels and jigs. Sometimes it is clear. Sometimes it is very subtle.
Do any of the pros play completely straight at danceable tempos? In the past, were different regions of Ireland known for being straight?
To me, a jig with no swing sounds like a machine gun firing.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by stephenseifert
Re: Swing or not to swing?
'Danceable tempos', now there's a concept! I've played for set dances down in Kerry where I've been exhausted after a set with the speed of it, let alone the dancers. Then I've played for set dances where it's been nice and laid back. I've played for solo dancers where they've said, "play whatever tempo you normally play at" and that's been cool for them. Just last week in Miltown Malbay a friend of mine came and danced a few steps for us. She did steps to jigs and to reels and she had no say in the speed - we just played in the same way we'd been playing the whole session - but that was fine with her. But then I've played for competition style step dancers where I've been asked to slow a jig down so much that it actually turned into a waltz. No word of a lie there; more than once I've given in and just played a waltz instead of a funeral-march speed jig because it makes for nicer music! So to define a danceable tempo is near impossible.
In terms of regional styles, Donegal would probably be the straightest style, because of the influence of Scottish music in that region... that because of the migration between Ulster and Scotland since the 1600s.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Tize
Re: Swing or not to swing?
In most American trad music, we certainly do tend to play a tune either very straight or with a definite triplet swing. I’ve been trying to break the habit for a long time but I still slip into it.
There’s a tune I wrote that I always play with a solid swing and I would never play it straight. To me, it’s part of the tune, not a personal interpretation. (Is that a mainly American attitude?) If I were to inflict the tune on the sesh database, I would definitely notate it with the swing. I wouldn’t mind at all if somebody else played it straight or swung it differently, but to me it would sound like a novelty variation.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Hey Ceolachan, do you seriously suspect that this site is 'infested' with legions of Lambeg Drummers waiting for your advice?
But seriously, I've played only once for step dancers & never again - I swear (fcuk!).
It was a horrendous experience - we had to literally brutalise the tunes to make them suitable for that step dance crap!
I've seen Clare musicians play delightful music at a reasonable pace & the set dancers have a whale of a time. Isn't it the case that the 'lift' is more important than the speed, for dancers as well as musicians?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
* Uh oh, poor Al is back. Hi Al! I take it you like the latest contributions...
* Me too Tiz, just this week one of our less able musicians, a kind man but losing his memory with age, played for a stepper, hard shoe, and that dancer let him set the pace, though I did start him off at a more controlable pace. Even though he didn't pick up the clues as to when she wanted to stop, and he didn't quite hold it steady ~ she had only thanks and praise for him. Now that kind of dancer is much appreciated...
I've also played with and played for and danced to music down Sliabh Luachra area, over years, and it has changed, aside from the influx of city folk that regularly take up space there on their holidays ~ and are particularly fond of speed.
When I first had the pleasure of Johnny O'Leary's music and dancing in Dan O'Connoll's pub the average was one set, and it was nicely laid back, not rushed or furious or encumbered by any loud banging, aside from Dan's love for jumping about when he was on the dance floor. We just made room for his occassional leaps...
* I like you Ptarm, you didn't rise to the bait...
I forgot to mention 'Comhaltasillifinationed' in my little harrangue. Note though, I don't rail on about anything unless it is fueled at least in part by personal guilt... I won't go there too far, but there was that Monaghan lot who in wanting a set to enter into the competition spent hours in front of the tele and viewing videos in an effort to create a Monaghan set. At the time the polka sets were doing well, so they borrowed steps and tunes and created some Frankenstein of a Monaghan set... Hell, they weren't the only ones fekin' about with the tradition...
STRAIGHT!? ~ YES! ~ there is a tradition that very much takes things straight and flat out and have established such traditions since the mid 1930's ~ THE SESSION!!!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
One of the best things I ever did was take adult step dance and ceilidhe dance classes with my wife for a couple of years--I was a horrid step dancer, and only a passable ceilidhe dancer, but I learned LOTS about the rhythm of the music as part of that experience. Kind of like the week of lessons on bodhran I took from Myron Breckholtz at the first Gaelic Roots festival I attended in Boston--I never played the drum again, but he gave me an excellent insight into the pulse of things.
I would love to play for ceilidhes, but would not play for step dancers voluntarily--here in the US, they almost always dance to recorded music, and their idea of an appropriate pace is way too demanding and rigid.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I personally like the "swing" feel that Liz has in her fiddle playing, it's refreshing. I like everything she does, but the true Irish fiddlers make me believe the music more because of their "lift". I also think they know when and when not to add the small amount of swing to vary the music, without taking it to far from the original. Now lift I don't necessarily think has to be right on the rhythm or right on the beat. There still is that certain amount of stretching or space between notes when playing with true "lift". More like phrasing or something.... anyone fallow?
Also, am I the only one who thinks Liz Carroll has a modern feel to her music? I just can’t make myself believe that what she plays is 100% trad. I know she writes a lot of her tunes, and that would make since for her music to sound just a tiny bit modern, but even when she plays the old tunes she has a very different take on them. But don't get me wrong, I love her music!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by irishfiddler
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Hey irishfiddler, what's "true lift"? Is it the excuse I've been looking for not to keep in time? Also, what's "100% trad"?
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Dow
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Chicago is another state of mind and music...and that isn't necessarily meant as a criticism.
Getting something akin to swing and lift is very much about the dance in the music. Most of the older players danced, that was something taken for granted. Many fine players nowadays also dance, but much of where the music is bubbling up from has the pub scene, sessions, and mostly dance free zones. Hell, the Dance Hall act of 1935 made it illegal. Now we've suffered through a kind of 'revival' of it all, especially sets which rose up and took over much, including The Willy Clancy Summer School, in the 80's. This dance mania was very much 'driven' by driven people, most of that driving force being from Dublin and Cork ~ and London... It went from something in certain quarters that was frowned on and even outlawed, and still is by some, to something embraced as a new means for winning medals ~ and for sweating out the angst of city life's pressures.
Those sort of influences can only mean change. If you listen to the earliest recordings, hell, even just from the mid 20th Century, and since polkas have been raised earlier, polkas by Clare players, from Ulster ~ they are just so damned nice and relaxed. You could dance and socialize and exercize some stepping all in the same breath. Even Johnny O'Leary spoke against the change in the privacy of his own friends and home.
Some of the commercial tapes that came out to accompany the growing interest in sets further promoted the speed and the 'flat out' approach to things. Some were so damned fast and twisted that when reintroduced to the local musicans and dancers of the set recorded ~ they just laughed. They were usually found too fast to dance too, amongst the 'regular folk' and just not 'right' either. Adrenalin and the forces of 'organization' and 'fad' can do funny things to the object of their passions ~ mostly not good... ~ a personal view...
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Dow, here's a true lift:
http://www.concordelevator.com/elevator-images/infinity/infinity1.jpg
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Hehe
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Dow
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Damn, is that your house Ptarm? ~ or is that the secret trap door for step dancers? Yeah, I'll play for you, but step into this here dancing booth.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I love a lot of the stuff LizC does, but sometimes, especially on her own tunes, she sounds like she’s doing practice drills for ornamentation instead of playing a tune. And I’ve eventually found myself agreeing with Ptarm-again that she sounds very American. Whatever that means.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Swing or not to swing?
The best lift is when you notice it as an attitude in the music rather than a obvious rhythmical swing.
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Phantom Button
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I suppose if you could ever express what's so interesting about swing and lift in words, you wouldn't bother to play the tunes.
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by millionyears_bc
Re: Swing or not to swing?
WHAT?!!? ~ nice one... I suppose the aside about sessions didn't catch anyone enough? But I was serious and not being flippant. What about ASSOCIATION? It you take the history of the session, not just the stuff that drove the music out of the houses and away from crossroads and platforms and dancers and into the pubs ~ you have to also consider the other changes that accompanied that ~ in the substance and choice of what happened in that new environment, from the loss of recitation and song, in the larger percentage of venues, to the preponderance of REELS...a huge imbalance from the normal dance setting.
So, REELS ~ what percentage? I have been in sessions where I don't think anything else was played, but mostly, a set or two of hornpipes leaks in, maybe a few sets of jigs, and that is mostly the full of it. Though some of you have been building toward greater variety in you sessions ~ that is, possibly, something of a 'newish' movement, in part probably due to some of the recordings, like the Chieftains, whether or not they are to everyone's tastses. They even brought in 'foreign' influences from other Celtic and relate realms, like Brittany and North America.
But back to REELS ~ if you were a lonesome set of hornpipes all on your own, surrounded by the ruling class REELS ~ isn't it natural for that influence to have its effect? ~ to generally bring most things down to it's own level and way ~ tempo wise and treatment wise. If your barrelling through reel after reel and then just pop in a hornpipe ~ well, over time, don't you think things would change. Even the practice of reel after reel, sets, sessions ~ is alien to the origins of the music with the dance ~ and the gatherings at houses and crossroads and ~ with the chat and the recitations and the songs and good home baked bread and fresh churned butter... No, it isn't a myth, I've had the fortune of having experienced that, and not just the once... I'll take that over a session any day...
So, about swing and lift ~ as someone said earlier, much of that is taken from the dance in the music, from having dancers in front of you, from that completeness, which the 20th century tradition of the session is just not a party to... BUT ~ some folks are lucky and inspired and are doing their damnedest to bring things back together again ~ and I don't mean necessarily the 'ORGANIZATIONS', who too often seem to have ulterior motives and vested interests...
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by ceolachan
Is it how a constant stream of water wears a a groove in the land and breaks it up and takes the stone and wears it down to 'round' and eventually sand? Maybe a constant stream of reels and sameness does the same thing to the music? ~ losing the 'dance' in it, grinding it out?
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
One of the local musos is a gal whistler/pianist who's been at it since the 70's, she was talking about playing for sets, and how sometimes visiting bands will play for the dancers, not always to good effect - "They're pinning 'em to the floor!" So I asked if she ever bothered playing for steppers. Might as well have asked if she played for those people that juggle chainsaws.
This in Portland, which (people always tell me) has a "great Irish music scene." So the foot- and finger- work don't seem to have much in common anymore.
Never liked the session-in-pub, trad equivalent of fast food. Reels are french fries. Bad for the music's health.
There!
# Posted on July 15th 2006 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: Swing or not to swing?
American fiddle- its easy to generalize when talking about American fiddle players or specifically those in the USA... Unfortunately regional styles are pretty much dead and bluegrass has poisoned all the water.... American trad. music and EVEN Appalachian music was at one time filled with variety... reels, hornpipes, jigs, cotillions, waltzes, mazurkas etc. Recordings of square dance or string bands in the early 1900's were a huge influence or hinderance to all these tune types with stereotypical "fruit jar" "moonshiner" names and speedy tunes with little variety. One thing that was once true about fiddlers in the US is that they were all very unique and creative. but within their region or style... John Doherty comes to mind as a very unique Irish fiddler who was super creative WITHIN his style or type of fiddling... SInce Ulster was a huge part of the make up of AMerican culture on the frontier, I still find myself gravitating towards Donegal styles and Scottish styles as I study and compare tunes with the region of the US Im interested in (MidATlantic/Upper South Highlands.) As far as "swing" for older generations it was present, but didn't overtake every tune... although not as clearly defined in the US, the rhythms of Donegal music were all present... from the straight driving reel to the stately march to the "highland" half reel half hornpipe type tunes. As for US "Irish" fiddlers specifically.... I can't comment because I don't listen to many modern fiddlers.
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Swing or not to swing?
~ schottisches, polkas, single jigs, quicksteps, rags, marches ~ Ah yes... It is a difficult problem delving into regional styles, in that even within an identified body of tunes and ways, Johnny Doherty was also unique, as was Simon, and the Cassidy's and ~ so was it true with North America, Canada and the U.S.A... Competitions, just as elsewhere, for example Eire, had their heavy hand with twisting everything toward a 'standard'... Too often, back in Eire again, I've seen a fine traditional player, someone steeped in their area's traditions and buzzing with the dance, lose out to some acrobatic wonder who'd cut their teeth on the commercial big city recordings. It's not new, there was Coleman and Morrison, then there were Planxty and The Bothy Band and The Chieftains and ~...
I don't think it's necessarily wrong or bad that the waters get disturbed and muddied, just so long as the mud can settle again, the waters find some clarity and the life in those waters find some oxygen... And the view again is varied and interesting... It isn't that I don't appreciate the art behind it, but some ways with bluegrass are akin to the MacDonald's of music, fast food, deep fat fried, greasy and fattening...
# Posted on July 19th 2006 by ceolachan
Re: Swing or not to swing?
I agree
# Posted on July 20th 2006 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Swing or not to swing?
Case study:
I've spent all day listening to Charlie Parker and Thelmonious Monk...
I get a little drunk, spoke a little wack toback, kinick kinick, and show up at Irish music session gung ho... and ready to go.
Before I sit down, the alpha recorded contorted fiddler says "Joe, why don't you give us a reel." Knowing fully well that I'm going to be going to the four four beat in my heart.
I pound into a simple standard set and she begins making weird faces to others and being non verbally derrogative and passive aggressive.
When I finish, she says "joe, do you know that it is very hard to play along with you, you are swinging or something."
Next time, you start it!!!!!! I haven't been back to that session. It was a mistake, forgive me, tar and feather me, take me out the lot and give me a good working over. Maybe knock some sense into me.
Different sessions go to different beats and forgive me if I need to hear a reel played a few times before I get off the syncopated beat and onto your step....
So maybe I'm not the best musician, but how can you live in America and not beable to swing?
C'mon now!
# Posted on October 20th 2006 by joeyg