For example in section - 1) What music instrument do you play?
They ask about: piano, guitar, electric organ, trumpet , flute, western drums, saxophone, accordion, violin, harmonica ......... but no mention of the traditional musical instruments of Japan & yet in Japan, like most other countries folks are becoming more & more interested in their own native music.
In 2) What music instrument did you play when you were a elementary school student?
Again, no mention of 'traditional Japanese instruments!
Finally in 3) What are your favourite music styles?
folk & traditional Japanese music gets a mention.
As we all know, Japan, like every other country, has a rich musical tradition and surely this must be promoted in their schools to promote its value.
I'm sure this is the case in most countries & the old stranglehold 'CLASSICAL' music & its promoters had within the education systems is slowly weakening - & not before time.
I wonder, are other folks here seeing this in their country's schools?
Are kids being given the opportunity to play their own countries native music, using their own native instruments?
For far too long, European Classical Music has been rammed down our throats as being the standard.
Surely, it is long overdue that each countries own traditional music should become their standard?
In Cape Breton, do children get the opportunity to learn Trad Fiddle at school?
In Appalachia is Old Time Banjo & Fiddle music taught in school?
etc etc
Any thoughts?
Anyone else interested in this?
Or do I just need another cup of Coffee?
P.S. Gretchen, you say in your bio - "my goal is to learn at least one song a week this year." - So, tell me, how many Japanese tunes have you learned so far?
In Japan, we have two different kinds of traditional music: court music and so-called folk music. Both are almost always played for spesific rituals or festivals, so it's very unnatural to record instrumental music or singing and listen to them at home. Do you record the mass and listen to it at home? I know music used to be played on special occasions in the West too. It was probably classical musicians in the 19th century who invented the idea of "absolute music".
So, court music is not something you can learn and play at school in Japan. Folk music can be taught at school to prepare for local festivals, but we don't have them very often in this country.
So Slainte, what if I wanted to learn Sakuhachi (sorry about the spelling)? Is it a court music? Do you have to be like royalty to learn it? Or how would a person who wants to learn, learn? Just curious.
Traditional music in New Zealand follows several paths.....nose flutes, plainsong, waiatas, and more recently 10 guitars. Its worth listening to as it is the kiwi equivilent of the Irish Washerwoman, overdone and leaves a legacy in many things to be touched later.
However, traditional music here is not taught at school, there is no one to teach it. Its learnt at home, and if you dont have it at home you are highly likely never to be exposed to it. Its not like the souvenir cds or dvd's, you wont see it at festivals. Its tribal based and can change significantly over small distances. To expect a unified form over an entire country or region is unrealistic as we all know. There is also the factor of elitism (yes I carp on a lot about this). Why expect certain traditions and practices because you perceive them to be as such. Why not enjoy the music for what it is and not what you think it should be. Music evolves, it changes and grows. Without that evolution we would not have what we have today to enjoy.
It doesnt matter which country in the end its the same...everywhere.
One of my neighbours plays shakuhachi. It's on the folk side and now sometimes played in unison with singing in traditional styles. It used to be used by Zen monks to do slow solo pieces.
Japan has various folk music traditions: in the north music and culture are related to those in Siberia, and in the south they are related to those in Southeast Asia. Folk music is still very dominant in the south, especially in Okinawa. There's a nice film called "Nabbie's Love": http://www.shirous.com/nabbie/eg/indexflame_e.htm Cape Breton fiddler Ashley MacIsaac appears as an Irish fiddler.
Good topic, ptarm. Possibly it would have the opposite of the desired effect with some individuals, but that would be expected. Slightly off-topic, when I was a wee laddie in 1st and 2nd year secondary school (I think that's about year 7 or 7th grade in English or American money) we had a fascist psychopathic evil gym teacher called Mr Gardiner (no qualms about outing the bastert - hopefully dead now anyway) who would make us run round the school football pitch wearing just our shorts, and that was in freezing Glasgow January. A few years later I took up cross country and track as my sport, and have kept it going till the present, so I wasn't deterred by that eegit. What I'm trying to say is if you are interested in something enough you will make time for it even as a yougster.
Hey Hiro, are the northern Japanese Ainu people similar to Siberian? I've read somewhere that the Japanese language is related to the Finno-Ugric linguistic group, is that right, or am I talking shight again?
Well, Japanese is more similar to Basque.... Dow would know. He's a linguist who specialises in Japanese. For the relation between the north of Japan and Siberia, see: http://www.asza.com/ijmukkuri.shtml
In my urban/suburban experience over here in the States the deciding factor as to whether or not any students receive(d) exposure to the traditional music of our country (and it could be argued that such is really a conglomerate of the traditional music from many parts of the world) is/was the instructor as opposed to the curriculum. In grammar school in the sixties I was exposed to our traditional music by a very forward thinking instructor. I believe that was the exception rather than the rule. Of course almost all of us sang some of our traditional songs as children either in the classroom or the school yard. All this said, it was “Classical” music that was presented as a form of music worthy of academic study. Where-as if our traditional music was offered it was so as a novelty and I came away with the impression that the academic study of it was akin to study divining, interesting but of no real value to one’s future. And this occurred during the “Folk Music” revival. Fortunately for me I paid as much attention to this mind set as I do to most of what our society has defined as academically important.
Now in the colleges and universities it seems traditional music has become a bona-fide academic pursuit as there are more and more “ethno-musicology” programs in place and/or developing. I don’t think these programs will ever reach the stature that say political science or even public or business administration have but it is encouraging that there has been a recognition of the academic value of this field of study.
Our publican was forced to learn the tin whistle in elementary school back in the old country, and began a lifelong dislike for the things. So maybe we would be better off not using the schools as a venue for promoting the tradition!
Now Dow, what would I know about Japanese slang? Gosh, how do I make an red faced embarrassed emoticon? I am just a ignorant Aussie culchie with two left feet from somewhere out the back o'Bourke. Wow I loved the link Ani Trec-Noc. I had a friend who played Shakuhachi and she had the most beautiful sheet music to play from, it just fascinated me. Obviously it isn't something you have to be born into like Sumo wrestling or becoming a Geisha (or am I wrong about that too?)
“In Appalachia is Old Time Banjo & Fiddle music taught in school?”
Some of my friends have put considerable effort into that project, but it’s still a volunteer effort outside the official offerings. The music programs throughout most of the Southern US are geared toward producing marching bands to provide half-time entertainment during football games and to march in an occasional parade. The more affluent schools also have a classical music program.
I agree Bob. I grew up in "Appalachia" and the only thing we had available was the marching band. Bluegrass was always on the local radio stations, however, so I got a big dose of that at my grandmother's house! I still visit and bluegrass or "mountain music" is still being played on the local radio, in spite of all the newcomers to the region. Don't know how long that'll last.
Ptarmington, as for your question.... I know only one Japanese tune... Sakura.... it seems to me that if anyone ever says to you that they are about to play you a traditional Japanese tune you can bet your money it'll certainly be Sakura. I've heard this song played countless times, and other than Okinawan music, I don't know of any other traditional tunes. Actually, my husband who teaches in elemnetary and junior highschools played Sakura on tin whistle to accompany three or four other teachers on koto at a school concert once... fusion music? ; )
I have a great respect for shamisen and sanchin but in my area it seems there are very limited oppotunities to learn more about these things. As far as I can tell, Taiko seems to be the most popular type of folk music here. In my area there are loads of Taiko circles that meet up once a week and there's always a lot of this type of music at local festivals (Slainte... were you joking when you said Japan doesn't have many local festivals? In this area in the spring and fall it seems as if almost every other weekend there was some sort of festival going on.... I used to write home and tell my family and friends about how all we ever did was go to festival after festival! We are leaving Japan in early August and people keep trying to delay our leaving with promise of more festivals... it's insane!) Anyway, I hope I haven't offended anyone... I'm sure there's more Japanese traditional music beyond Sakura... I just don't seem to have had the luck of finding it. Could it be if I lived in a city I'd have done better in this direction? I can remember one night when I was visiting Osaka that we came across two young guys on a bridge who were busking and one was playing sanchin and the other was playing guitar. The sanchin player had taught himself from a book loads of Okinawan tunes and songs. They were pretty good and also managed to pull off a very interesting version of "Let it be" and then some J-pop.
It always seems to me that nowadays trad is much more common in cities than the rural places where the music would have originated. Maybe had I been in a city I'd have heard a lot more traditional Japanese music this past year. From talking to that sanchin player, it sort of sounded to me that Okinawan trad anyway was becoming quite popular.
Oh, now that I think of it... everyweekend it seems to me that during the day there is a lot of traditional court music (I think) played on television.... we don't have cable so by "a lot" I mean, two of the three channels we get will show it.
Sorry folks, had a busy day yesterday, my first experience of 'the field' on 'the 12th' - up here in Ulster - so no chance to reply, till now.
Anyway,
Slainte, as making up ones own tunes is such a common thing for so many ITM & STM practicianers, I'm a little surprised that your local musicians would not make up their own tunes so that a repertoire of music would have actually developed over the years, rather than just keeping it for special occasions.
But then, from my experience yesterday with sixty marching bands on the field, & speaking to numerous players, I get the impression that many of them simply learn up the tunes they need for their wee parades & leave it at that.
In much the same way as many pub entertainers learn up just enough material for a night & are quite happy to churn that same stuff out night after night, year in year out.
So I suppose it's not that strange. I guess this hunger for more & more tunes is not for all musicians.
Interesting to hear about New Zealand Joze. I think it would be valuable if kids were even just exposed to their regions own music, at some stage of their education. We know they are going to be exposed to Pop, Country & Rock & Roll elsewhere so it wouldn't hurt for them to be at the very least aware that there was a music that they could call their own. I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but there would always be that one or two who would really like what they heard & want to take it up. Without being exposed to it, they would miss out.
I often hear adults here say they never got any opportunity to learn to play any instrument at school, which is a real pity. I teach Whistle to a number of P4 classes in various schools around here & far from being elitist about trad. I reel them in by teaching them to play daft wee pop tunes & TV theme tunes, before sneaking in a few trad ones. By the end of their year with me they can all play a few tunes & at least have then got an idea that there is music they can call their own & they know they can learn it & play it - if they want to.
Nice to hear about the 'good old days' Key Maniac Lad - Sounds like he made a man of you!
Hi Ed, "I believe that was the exception rather than the rule." yeah, that's the pity, isn't it?
Isn't it funny that 'they' deem it to be worthy of study at third level institutions, but are reluctant to expose us to it at a younger age.
I'm not saying we should only be taught trad of course, but so many children who would not be the least bit interested in learning some obscure classical piece might just find a catch wee, easy to learn, trad tune of interest.
I had one wee boy, a wee hard man, who refused to learn - until I brought in a couple of football tunes 'Match of the Day', & the Man United tune & he's never looked back!
Wonder what Comhaltas would say if you played one of those at the All Ireland competition?
I hear what your saying Al, but it's the old story of the teacher, not the tune. I'm sure we all learned best at school from our favourite teachers.
That's a thought Scraper, do they teach Sumo Wrestling in school over there?
Aye Bob "The more affluent schools also have a classical music program." there's that elitist thingy that Joze was talking about. That puts some kids off learning classical. Perhaps if Classical was just one of the types of music they showed us in school instead of it being thrown up as the only worthwhile one....
Fair play to your friends too Bob, hats off to them & more power to their elbows!
"The music programs throughout most of the Southern US are geared toward producing marching bands" - Ah ha, just imagine if they geared up to producing Old Time Bands instead? ....Yeee Haaa
Fair play tae yer Grannie B Lane!
She's not a radio DJ too is she?
Gretchen "I know only one Japanese tune... Sakura" funny, when Slainte visited recently, I asked him to play one of his own Japanese tunes but the one he chose to play actually sounded Scottish!
"It always seems to me that nowadays trad is much more common in cities than the rural places" - Yes, that's seems to be a common thing here in Ireland & in Scotland too.
It's more common amongst the better educated city folk, especially Uni gradautes, than simple country folk - there's that old elitist element creaping in again Joze!
I sometime think they're the ones who greedily grab at the opportunity of 'beating' other musicians in competition whereas country musicians tend to be content to play it simply for enjoyment.
Also, the educated ones may well be the ones guilty of taking ornamentation to its nth level & cluttering up many tunes, while simple country folk may be content to keep it simple & let the melody do the talking. but then that's a whole nother thread I guess!
Thanks guys for your thoughts.
I suppose, teaching it daily, I am guilty of overestimating the value of trad music, but that's why I wanted to hear how some of you, more level headed thinkers, thought of its value in schools today.
Hey ptarmigan, I have the american statistics on this if you want, we have been looking into stuff like this for work..........................sorry nearly fell a sleep!! SNORE
“I suppose, teaching it daily, I am guilty of overestimating the value of trad music,…”
Greetings again Dick,
I don’t think this is possible. I know that the traditional music from any region or country may not be everyone’s cuppa but we all learn of the cultural histories of our countries or regions, hell we even learn of those of other regions, so why not include the traditional cultural music as well.
I would venture a guess that over here in the States it has been more a need to “Advance” society that has precluded it’s teaching. After all our traditional music is associated with “Rural” living and we all know why it is so important to disavow ourselves of this stigma (lest anyone be offended I am being extremely sarcastic). To my way of thinking the exclusion of our traditional music in the earliest of school’s curriculums has done more harm than good in-so-far as social development is concerned.
There are of course the PC issues of the day. Can you imagine a song with the line “My massa’s gone away” being sung in a grammar school today? Yet if we were all to have learned about such concepts as “Let us pause in life’s pleasures and count its many tears” we may indeed be a stronger, more humble community nationwide. If we hide our past from our future we run a serious risk of redeveloping the past hideous social philosophies.
Having a common element amongst people, or sharing one’s cultural elements with those of a different culture, are the keystones to a strong community and community over here is currently as weak as I have witnessed whilst on my short walk.
No, my granny's no DJ, Ptarmigan. She's 6 feet under the daisies now unfortunately! But she was a mean ol' cuss!! Short and redhaired with a mean tongue. When we'd visit her, my mom would always go over and turn the radio down.
Growing up there, that kind of music wasn't valued. You were called a hillbilly if you listened to it, and that was something to be ashamed of. Glad to see it being preserved in parts. Heck, John Doyle has moved to Asheville! Cool!
Heck B Lane, I was surrounded by the original 'Billy's yesterday when I attended 'the field' & my first ever '12th Day' in Derry/Londonderry!
At any one time, there might have been about 60 bands all playing different tunes! Don't think I heard any Bluegrass tunes though, unless you could count 'The Girl I left Behind Me' as one?
Okay, Im not fussed on the term that was used, but can we not go through the whole castigation thing again, its not Ptarm's fault, it was the way he was reared
Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Stumbled on these Japanese stats & wondered if they would be the same, for every country, worldwide? Well, how would these look in your country?
http://www.japan-guide.com/topic/0110.html
For example in section - 1) What music instrument do you play?
They ask about: piano, guitar, electric organ, trumpet , flute, western drums, saxophone, accordion, violin, harmonica ......... but no mention of the traditional musical instruments of Japan & yet in Japan, like most other countries folks are becoming more & more interested in their own native music.
In 2) What music instrument did you play when you were a elementary school student?
Again, no mention of 'traditional Japanese instruments!
Finally in 3) What are your favourite music styles?
folk & traditional Japanese music gets a mention.
As we all know, Japan, like every other country, has a rich musical tradition and surely this must be promoted in their schools to promote its value.
I'm sure this is the case in most countries & the old stranglehold 'CLASSICAL' music & its promoters had within the education systems is slowly weakening - & not before time.
I wonder, are other folks here seeing this in their country's schools?
Are kids being given the opportunity to play their own countries native music, using their own native instruments?
For far too long, European Classical Music has been rammed down our throats as being the standard.
Surely, it is long overdue that each countries own traditional music should become their standard?
In Cape Breton, do children get the opportunity to learn Trad Fiddle at school?
In Appalachia is Old Time Banjo & Fiddle music taught in school?
etc etc
Any thoughts?
Anyone else interested in this?
Or do I just need another cup of Coffee?
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
P.S. Gretchen, you say in your bio - "my goal is to learn at least one song a week this year." - So, tell me, how many Japanese tunes have you learned so far?
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
In Japan, we have two different kinds of traditional music: court music and so-called folk music. Both are almost always played for spesific rituals or festivals, so it's very unnatural to record instrumental music or singing and listen to them at home. Do you record the mass and listen to it at home? I know music used to be played on special occasions in the West too. It was probably classical musicians in the 19th century who invented the idea of "absolute music".
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by slainte
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
So, court music is not something you can learn and play at school in Japan. Folk music can be taught at school to prepare for local festivals, but we don't have them very often in this country.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by slainte
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
So Slainte, what if I wanted to learn Sakuhachi (sorry about the spelling)? Is it a court music? Do you have to be like royalty to learn it? Or how would a person who wants to learn, learn? Just curious.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Hahahahaha. I'm presuming that that was unintentionally funny and it's not that you're in the know about Japanese slang...
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Dow
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
If you are interested in the Shakuhachi check out this site.
He lives here in Japan.
http://www.pacificsites.com/~jneptune/
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Ani Trec-Noc
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Traditional music in New Zealand follows several paths.....nose flutes, plainsong, waiatas, and more recently 10 guitars. Its worth listening to as it is the kiwi equivilent of the Irish Washerwoman, overdone and leaves a legacy in many things to be touched later.
However, traditional music here is not taught at school, there is no one to teach it. Its learnt at home, and if you dont have it at home you are highly likely never to be exposed to it. Its not like the souvenir cds or dvd's, you wont see it at festivals. Its tribal based and can change significantly over small distances. To expect a unified form over an entire country or region is unrealistic as we all know. There is also the factor of elitism (yes I carp on a lot about this). Why expect certain traditions and practices because you perceive them to be as such. Why not enjoy the music for what it is and not what you think it should be. Music evolves, it changes and grows. Without that evolution we would not have what we have today to enjoy.
It doesnt matter which country in the end its the same...everywhere.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Joze
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
One of my neighbours plays shakuhachi. It's on the folk side and now sometimes played in unison with singing in traditional styles. It used to be used by Zen monks to do slow solo pieces.
Yeah, it has a nasty meaning too.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by slainte
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Sorry, again.
Japan has various folk music traditions: in the north music and culture are related to those in Siberia, and in the south they are related to those in Southeast Asia. Folk music is still very dominant in the south, especially in Okinawa. There's a nice film called "Nabbie's Love": http://www.shirous.com/nabbie/eg/indexflame_e.htm Cape Breton fiddler Ashley MacIsaac appears as an Irish fiddler.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by slainte
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Good topic, ptarm. Possibly it would have the opposite of the desired effect with some individuals, but that would be expected. Slightly off-topic, when I was a wee laddie in 1st and 2nd year secondary school (I think that's about year 7 or 7th grade in English or American money) we had a fascist psychopathic evil gym teacher called Mr Gardiner (no qualms about outing the bastert - hopefully dead now anyway) who would make us run round the school football pitch wearing just our shorts, and that was in freezing Glasgow January. A few years later I took up cross country and track as my sport, and have kept it going till the present, so I wasn't deterred by that eegit. What I'm trying to say is if you are interested in something enough you will make time for it even as a yougster.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Alf Tupper
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Hey Hiro, are the northern Japanese Ainu people similar to Siberian? I've read somewhere that the Japanese language is related to the Finno-Ugric linguistic group, is that right, or am I talking shight again?
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Alf Tupper
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Well, Japanese is more similar to Basque.... Dow would know. He's a linguist who specialises in Japanese. For the relation between the north of Japan and Siberia, see: http://www.asza.com/ijmukkuri.shtml
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by slainte
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Hello Dick,
In my urban/suburban experience over here in the States the deciding factor as to whether or not any students receive(d) exposure to the traditional music of our country (and it could be argued that such is really a conglomerate of the traditional music from many parts of the world) is/was the instructor as opposed to the curriculum. In grammar school in the sixties I was exposed to our traditional music by a very forward thinking instructor. I believe that was the exception rather than the rule. Of course almost all of us sang some of our traditional songs as children either in the classroom or the school yard. All this said, it was “Classical” music that was presented as a form of music worthy of academic study. Where-as if our traditional music was offered it was so as a novelty and I came away with the impression that the academic study of it was akin to study divining, interesting but of no real value to one’s future. And this occurred during the “Folk Music” revival. Fortunately for me I paid as much attention to this mind set as I do to most of what our society has defined as academically important.
Now in the colleges and universities it seems traditional music has become a bona-fide academic pursuit as there are more and more “ethno-musicology” programs in place and/or developing. I don’t think these programs will ever reach the stature that say political science or even public or business administration have but it is encouraging that there has been a recognition of the academic value of this field of study.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Our publican was forced to learn the tin whistle in elementary school back in the old country, and began a lifelong dislike for the things. So maybe we would be better off not using the schools as a venue for promoting the tradition!
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by AlBrown
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Now Dow, what would I know about Japanese slang? Gosh, how do I make an red faced embarrassed emoticon? I am just a ignorant Aussie culchie with two left feet from somewhere out the back o'Bourke. Wow I loved the link Ani Trec-Noc. I had a friend who played Shakuhachi and she had the most beautiful sheet music to play from, it just fascinated me. Obviously it isn't something you have to be born into like Sumo wrestling or becoming a Geisha (or am I wrong about that too?)
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Clear Drops
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
“In Appalachia is Old Time Banjo & Fiddle music taught in school?”
Some of my friends have put considerable effort into that project, but it’s still a volunteer effort outside the official offerings. The music programs throughout most of the Southern US are geared toward producing marching bands to provide half-time entertainment during football games and to march in an occasional parade. The more affluent schools also have a classical music program.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by Bob himself
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
I agree Bob. I grew up in "Appalachia" and the only thing we had available was the marching band. Bluegrass was always on the local radio stations, however, so I got a big dose of that at my grandmother's house! I still visit and bluegrass or "mountain music" is still being played on the local radio, in spite of all the newcomers to the region. Don't know how long that'll last.
# Posted on July 12th 2006 by O'Lehane
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Ptarmington, as for your question.... I know only one Japanese tune... Sakura.... it seems to me that if anyone ever says to you that they are about to play you a traditional Japanese tune you can bet your money it'll certainly be Sakura. I've heard this song played countless times, and other than Okinawan music, I don't know of any other traditional tunes. Actually, my husband who teaches in elemnetary and junior highschools played Sakura on tin whistle to accompany three or four other teachers on koto at a school concert once... fusion music? ; )
I have a great respect for shamisen and sanchin but in my area it seems there are very limited oppotunities to learn more about these things. As far as I can tell, Taiko seems to be the most popular type of folk music here. In my area there are loads of Taiko circles that meet up once a week and there's always a lot of this type of music at local festivals (Slainte... were you joking when you said Japan doesn't have many local festivals? In this area in the spring and fall it seems as if almost every other weekend there was some sort of festival going on.... I used to write home and tell my family and friends about how all we ever did was go to festival after festival! We are leaving Japan in early August and people keep trying to delay our leaving with promise of more festivals... it's insane!) Anyway, I hope I haven't offended anyone... I'm sure there's more Japanese traditional music beyond Sakura... I just don't seem to have had the luck of finding it. Could it be if I lived in a city I'd have done better in this direction? I can remember one night when I was visiting Osaka that we came across two young guys on a bridge who were busking and one was playing sanchin and the other was playing guitar. The sanchin player had taught himself from a book loads of Okinawan tunes and songs. They were pretty good and also managed to pull off a very interesting version of "Let it be" and then some J-pop.
It always seems to me that nowadays trad is much more common in cities than the rural places where the music would have originated. Maybe had I been in a city I'd have heard a lot more traditional Japanese music this past year. From talking to that sanchin player, it sort of sounded to me that Okinawan trad anyway was becoming quite popular.
Oh, now that I think of it... everyweekend it seems to me that during the day there is a lot of traditional court music (I think) played on television.... we don't have cable so by "a lot" I mean, two of the three channels we get will show it.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by gretchen
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Sorry folks, had a busy day yesterday, my first experience of 'the field' on 'the 12th' - up here in Ulster - so no chance to reply, till now.
Anyway,
Slainte, as making up ones own tunes is such a common thing for so many ITM & STM practicianers, I'm a little surprised that your local musicians would not make up their own tunes so that a repertoire of music would have actually developed over the years, rather than just keeping it for special occasions.
But then, from my experience yesterday with sixty marching bands on the field, & speaking to numerous players, I get the impression that many of them simply learn up the tunes they need for their wee parades & leave it at that.
In much the same way as many pub entertainers learn up just enough material for a night & are quite happy to churn that same stuff out night after night, year in year out.
So I suppose it's not that strange. I guess this hunger for more & more tunes is not for all musicians.
Interesting to hear about New Zealand Joze. I think it would be valuable if kids were even just exposed to their regions own music, at some stage of their education. We know they are going to be exposed to Pop, Country & Rock & Roll elsewhere so it wouldn't hurt for them to be at the very least aware that there was a music that they could call their own. I know it's not everyones cup of tea, but there would always be that one or two who would really like what they heard & want to take it up. Without being exposed to it, they would miss out.
I often hear adults here say they never got any opportunity to learn to play any instrument at school, which is a real pity. I teach Whistle to a number of P4 classes in various schools around here & far from being elitist about trad. I reel them in by teaching them to play daft wee pop tunes & TV theme tunes, before sneaking in a few trad ones. By the end of their year with me they can all play a few tunes & at least have then got an idea that there is music they can call their own & they know they can learn it & play it - if they want to.
Nice to hear about the 'good old days' Key Maniac Lad - Sounds like he made a man of you!
Hi Ed, "I believe that was the exception rather than the rule." yeah, that's the pity, isn't it?
Isn't it funny that 'they' deem it to be worthy of study at third level institutions, but are reluctant to expose us to it at a younger age.
I'm not saying we should only be taught trad of course, but so many children who would not be the least bit interested in learning some obscure classical piece might just find a catch wee, easy to learn, trad tune of interest.
I had one wee boy, a wee hard man, who refused to learn - until I brought in a couple of football tunes 'Match of the Day', & the Man United tune & he's never looked back!
Wonder what Comhaltas would say if you played one of those at the All Ireland competition?
I hear what your saying Al, but it's the old story of the teacher, not the tune. I'm sure we all learned best at school from our favourite teachers.
That's a thought Scraper, do they teach Sumo Wrestling in school over there?
Aye Bob "The more affluent schools also have a classical music program." there's that elitist thingy that Joze was talking about. That puts some kids off learning classical. Perhaps if Classical was just one of the types of music they showed us in school instead of it being thrown up as the only worthwhile one....
Fair play to your friends too Bob, hats off to them & more power to their elbows!
"The music programs throughout most of the Southern US are geared toward producing marching bands" - Ah ha, just imagine if they geared up to producing Old Time Bands instead? ....Yeee Haaa
Fair play tae yer Grannie B Lane!
She's not a radio DJ too is she?
Gretchen "I know only one Japanese tune... Sakura" funny, when Slainte visited recently, I asked him to play one of his own Japanese tunes but the one he chose to play actually sounded Scottish!
"It always seems to me that nowadays trad is much more common in cities than the rural places" - Yes, that's seems to be a common thing here in Ireland & in Scotland too.
It's more common amongst the better educated city folk, especially Uni gradautes, than simple country folk - there's that old elitist element creaping in again Joze!
I sometime think they're the ones who greedily grab at the opportunity of 'beating' other musicians in competition whereas country musicians tend to be content to play it simply for enjoyment.
Also, the educated ones may well be the ones guilty of taking ornamentation to its nth level & cluttering up many tunes, while simple country folk may be content to keep it simple & let the melody do the talking. but then that's a whole nother thread I guess!
Thanks guys for your thoughts.
I suppose, teaching it daily, I am guilty of overestimating the value of trad music, but that's why I wanted to hear how some of you, more level headed thinkers, thought of its value in schools today.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Hey ptarmigan, I have the american statistics on this if you want, we have been looking into stuff like this for work..........................sorry nearly fell a sleep!! SNORE
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by blas
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
“I suppose, teaching it daily, I am guilty of overestimating the value of trad music,…”
Greetings again Dick,
I don’t think this is possible. I know that the traditional music from any region or country may not be everyone’s cuppa but we all learn of the cultural histories of our countries or regions, hell we even learn of those of other regions, so why not include the traditional cultural music as well.
I would venture a guess that over here in the States it has been more a need to “Advance” society that has precluded it’s teaching. After all our traditional music is associated with “Rural” living and we all know why it is so important to disavow ourselves of this stigma (lest anyone be offended I am being extremely sarcastic). To my way of thinking the exclusion of our traditional music in the earliest of school’s curriculums has done more harm than good in-so-far as social development is concerned.
There are of course the PC issues of the day. Can you imagine a song with the line “My massa’s gone away” being sung in a grammar school today? Yet if we were all to have learned about such concepts as “Let us pause in life’s pleasures and count its many tears” we may indeed be a stronger, more humble community nationwide. If we hide our past from our future we run a serious risk of redeveloping the past hideous social philosophies.
Having a common element amongst people, or sharing one’s cultural elements with those of a different culture, are the keystones to a strong community and community over here is currently as weak as I have witnessed whilst on my short walk.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by ejsant
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
"If we hide our past from our future we run a serious risk of redeveloping the past hideous social philosophies."
Well said, Ed.
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by fidkid
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
No, my granny's no DJ, Ptarmigan. She's 6 feet under the daisies now unfortunately! But she was a mean ol' cuss!! Short and redhaired with a mean tongue. When we'd visit her, my mom would always go over and turn the radio down.
Growing up there, that kind of music wasn't valued. You were called a hillbilly if you listened to it, and that was something to be ashamed of. Glad to see it being preserved in parts. Heck, John Doyle has moved to Asheville! Cool!
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by O'Lehane
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Heck B Lane, I was surrounded by the original 'Billy's yesterday when I attended 'the field' & my first ever '12th Day' in Derry/Londonderry!
At any one time, there might have been about 60 bands all playing different tunes! Don't think I heard any Bluegrass tunes though, unless you could count 'The Girl I left Behind Me' as one?
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Ptarmy, Derry will do..or Doire...nó fiú amháin Doire Cholmcille!! But no /Londonderry from now on, le do thoil!
I find that one highly offensive
# Posted on July 13th 2006 by double bass
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Double Bass - you better tell Gerry Anderson then, that's one of his catch phrases!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Anderson_(broadcaster)
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
For anyone not familiar with this name dispute, check out this page for an explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Okay, Im not fussed on the term that was used, but can we not go through the whole castigation thing again, its not Ptarm's fault, it was the way he was reared
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by blas
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
Aye, quite right Blas, they really should make it a crime to listen to a Gerry Anderson broadcast!
I did like the Gerry/Londongerry gag on that page though!
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by Ptarmigan
Re: Lies, Damn Lies & ..........
You have strange tastes man................
# Posted on July 14th 2006 by blas